I hope the take away here is auditioning a DAC is a wise move, there are so many to choose from in the OP’s bracket
Some companies will be here five years from now, some won’t. No one knows and it’s a chance you have to take.
I buy a new DAC every 5 years or so …. I’m going to enjoy that LAB 12 for the remainder of it’s warranty and revisit whether I even need to replace it four years from now.
Digital gets obsolete fast , so given that and factoring in my other components the LAB 12 fit my plans perfect. I wanted a great sounding DAC with no frills. That also wasn’t out of line with the rest of my system.
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Hello
First posting for me.
I have the Bricasti M3 and I fell that it is a bit too
analytical and dry. I ended up with a Sonnet Digital Audio Pasithea
which I love. It has a sweet r2r sound.
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Apologies in advance because this DAC is huge and heavy but reference level none-the-less. In my 10 years of borderline frantic searching - now completely over. I no longer thing about DACs at all. Every song plays like a PERFORMANCE in my room.
The Heléne is a bit-perfect ladder DAC and uses NO data processing, upsampling or oversampling – all data is converted at their native sample rate and bit rate.
Taking technology from the Kassandra Series, the converter banks are implemented around a matrix of eight R2R converters per channel, running in parallel. The two independent banks use EIGHT (8) R2R matrixes from the 8 Analog Devices AD1865N-K in current mode. Most reference DACs use one of these chips. The Kassandra uses 16 chips per channel.
https://aries-cerat.com/helene-product-page/
I read these forums a lot but rarely post. This is definitely a worthy mention!
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That's great, but the OP is looking to spend $3500 to $5k..... I would expect anything from Aries Cerat to sound great...
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I liked the Lab12 DAC1, but on the digital inputs connected to a streamer it would create a noise every time the bit rate changed. Manufacturer said it is normal. For $3200, I was not willing to live with noise/clicks/pops, so back it went.
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If you ever looked under the hood of an Audio Mirror you would run away in shock!!
I have an Kora dual mono with a tube output stage and could not be happier.
Nice thing about tubes in the line is that you can experiment and find a "sound" you like.
Good Hunting!
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The PS Audio DSD MKII is excellent. Very natural sounding, excellent sound stage, super quiet.
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@mdrone
"tda1541 crown series will beat every dac you have ever hear period!!"
"The dacs you listed are all junk compared to your Bricasti. Pay up buy a Lampizator Baltic 4 for $6500 from the best company in audio."
Must be nice to live in a world that is so black and white.
Would love to know how long it took for you to listen to every DAC available.
Get back to me in a month when you buy the next "best in the universe" DAC.
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I am extremely happy with my PS Audio Directstream 2 DAC. I found the imaging is superb with sonic images that take me to the original performance of the musicians. It is very detailed without any harshness or grain in the presentation, in addition to being beautiful to listen to all day.
The only downside for you is the physical size of the DAC. Enjoy the music!
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Another Border Patrol fan. You wanted great sound and a small size, the BP gives you both. I heard it at Capitol Audiofest and stopped my search. Why spend more time auditioning when you could simply be listening to good music well-reproduced? Good luck in your search.
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This Thread has introduced me to a good variety of suggestions across a broad price range on DAC's that are available, some at very attractive used purchase values.
I would be very confused if I were attempting to produce a shortlist, there is very little way to learn about the Sonic models suggested are capable of.
It does seem the OP is needing to receive demo's of a few types of DAC in systems with hopefully other ancillaries that are quite popular in use. By making it known what type of DAC and System was used for the Demo's, creates more avenues to receive comments on experiences had by others.
The follow up reports that can then be offered, these will certainly jog memories and help others who have had a similar encounter, which may have resulted in making a decision on purchasing the DAC demo'd, or alternatively discovered something else to be more attractive / or more of a repellent. This type of exchange of info, is one that prompts, experiences can be called on and the supply of ones thoughts/recollections on the impression that had been made are able to be offered with a useful and dependable description.
I would certainly want to know what the Sound being produced is like, prior to releasing the $3.5K - $5K funds. Nobody can describe a sound to the way a listener is to perceive it, this is a seat in from to the device experience only, I do not know any other method to accurately evaluate.
I feel confident, that if the OP was to sit down in front of my CDT>Bespoke Built Valve DAC > Bespoke Built 845 mono's > Modified ESL Speakers, they would thoroughly enjoy the experience, to the point where they have been very influenced by what has been shown. The complication with this is that the whole system is bespoke, and not understood by non-listeners, resulting in little help being forthcoming.
After the dust settles, there is always the 'but' moment, as the Honeymoon Fades and the reality appears, and it realised something that was uniquely important to them from a produced sonic, failed to manifest just as they like it.
As an Old Friend, now deceased used to inform me in jest, " when she starts farting in the bed, you now know the Honeymoon is over".😏
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I like my Sparkler Audio DAC a lot. It's very small, sounds wonderful and very tubelike, but unfortunately costs less than $1,000 so well below your price range. Hope that's not a deal killer?
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Any thoughts on the SPL Diamond DAC
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Does it play above its price point?
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I am not familiar with Sparkler Audio as a Company.
Very Tube Like is an interesting description for a SS Product.
Seeing the DAC as a used item that has sold in 2023 for approx' £700 is of interest,
(A Little off Topic), but hence my interst in other DAC's.
I am in the future intending on building a second system and the smaller dimension devices are to be seriously considered, as the System in the space allocated will be most welcome, if easily concealed, or the best very different from the main systems appearance, which has two walls of Room with the system as the dominating presence.
I have a DIGNA Phon' already allocated for a role in the New system, this Phon' and this DAC will take up a footprint of approx' 1' x 4" (300mm x 100mm). The designer of the DIGNA Phon' also has a Power Amp' of very small dimensions that may be the model chosen, and DIY DML Panel Speakers, for the very easy to disguise nature of these are also contenders. I supplied a sample material to a DIY DML Panel builder, that is new material and structure in comparison to the DIY Builders usual chosen materials. This material has after being tried out, been very well received for its sonic properties.
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In this price range with this form factor, I second the recommendation of the Wyred 4 Sound 10th Anniversary, especially if you actually listen to your components instead of just measure their specs. (ASR has no love for W4S products.) I now am using something else with a built-in streamer, but, if you don’t need the streamer, the 0th Anniversary is worth the admission price. Of the large handful of DACs I have had in my system, none has sounded more “analogue “ to me.
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I've never heard a DAC more pleasing than my Mark Levinson 360s with Burr Brown PCM 1704 chips. Yeah, I'm old school~
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Such powerful words of wisdom form @pennfootball71 After my experiences with Lampi I would not listen or read a word of advice from this guy. Grain of salt.
The dacs you listed are all junk compared to your Bricasti. Pay up buy a Lampizator Baltic 4 for $6500 from the best company in audio.
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If you are looking for something warmish, sweet even then Lampizator can produce excellent results. I had a play back designs MPS 5 sacd/dac which was replaced with a Lampizator golden gate, much better. The GG was tunable with different valve combinations - wonderful dynamic analogue like sound. I had to down size due to moving house and replaced the Lampi with a Mola Mola pre amp with an integrated phono and Tambaqui Dac modules. Different sound naturally but more detailed and tighter bass. (btw I have found the the streaming source every bit as important as the DAC). The Tambaqui is a superb sounding DAC and easily equals my analogue set up. The free sanding unit is also very compact.
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Do the SPL gear have some warmth ?
Timbre/ Tone?
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No they are very neutral. Think studio.
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This is a difficult decision. To be honest I did not read the entire thread. When I started down this path I found myself wondering which component should I use to “tune”” my sound. I ended up “tuning” with a preamp. I too have and love Bricasti and end up swapping out my preamp with a Cary SLP-05. Having gone thought a number of tube amps, preamps etc (love the midrange sound of tubes) but started to dislike the weight, power tube replace cost, heat and moved to class AGD class D. The Cary fulfilled my tube addiction and I think I’m good for the long hall. My learning was I started trying to tune with a DAC and end up where I currently am. Just my experience. By the way tried to hedge the DAC life cycle going with Bricasti. They really have proven to offer very cost effective upgrades. I guess I see where I am in a few years! Good luck! I don’t really think you go wrong. Don’t you love this hobby/ addiction???
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Very simple, IMHO get either the RME ADI-2 DAC (but has very complicated steps to maximize, read manual first) or Benchmark DAC 3B (definitely Not the HGC nor L, the B sounds best, just a straight exit path no volume pot/headphone amplifier, may have to set output voltage to match pre-amp, easy to do but read manual first). That's it! Save yourself all the nonsense. Was in the industry for awhile and had a collection of DACS through the years. Another thing the finest Digital cables are Benchmark's, both optical (no kidding) & the coax, cheap as well). Good Luck
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I thought the best suggestion was to choose the one you already heard and love, the lab12. Then, spend $50 for a a wall mounted shelf from Ikea or elsewhere, depending on WAF, and enjoy. Stop driving yourself nuts with the plethora of contradictory claims on this forum.
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You say it way better than me... I said it in my own not so clear way... if someone already own a dac which is good , the wise way to go is not upgrade the dac...Especially throwing money at a vay costlier one...
Anyway here no one even name or paid attention to the main revolutionary design in dac nowadays which is here for a long time now and which i name ... And it is not the product of an electronical engineer but from a physicist and acoustician ... It seems they dont read enough audio review or too much... 😊
I thought the best suggestion was to choose the one you already heard and love, the lab12. Then, spend $50 for a a wall mounted shelf from Ikea or elsewhere, depending on WAF, and enjoy. Stop driving yourself nuts with the plethora of contradictory claims on this forum.
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I have both the LAB 12 and a RME adi2. The LAB 12 is the better sounding DAC , hands down but it is 2.5 X the price so it should be.
I still use the RME, it's in a bedroom system that I primarily use with headphones. It's a great DAC, feature wise nothing really compares. It is the Swiss Army Knife of DACs . Having had both side by side I can say this , the RME is good but the user interface leaves a lot to be desired. It's clear right away that it's a piece of pro gear. If you are over 45, better have your reading glasses on. I use the remote for everything because the unit is so small. It's tiny. 1RU tall and 1/2 RU wide.
It is a little lean compared to the LAB 12. It is clear and detailed but it lacks the body / weight of the LAB 12. The LAB 12 has more meat on the bone and big expansive Soundstage. Don't get me wrong, it is an excellent DAC for $1300
The LAB12 has no features to speak of.... none. Input & power switch and sample, rate LED. That's it. As far as the noise when switching sample rates I think a lot has to do with the source. Aurender can apply a few seconds of delay between tracks and doesn't do it. Vault 2i does sometimes. It sounds so good I can forgive that.
The DAC 1 has the sound you like , but the RME has the form factor.... I'm with Bob on the shelf. A turntable shelf would be perfect .
The Music Room sometimes has open box demos and trade ins of the DAC 1if you want to save a few bucks
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Have you considered adding Lampizator to your list. I would strongly consider the Amber 4 or a used 3. Check out their specs and reviews online.
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boy oh boy
this can’t be helping lucasz at lampi in poland ... maybe we have a dealer with too much inventory
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@oddiofyl Thank You for pointing out the RME adi2, this is another compact dimension DAC, I will be adding to the Short List.
Positives are it is made in Germany and as a used sale Item, I have now found it for approx' £570. That starts looking like quite a few Tick Boxes are already infilled.
It seems there is also a Upgrade version, maybe this will become a Model that has a third party upgrade kit produced and offered.
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A Schiit Gungnir Multibit (A2 + Unison USB) should keep you happy for a while.
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The Link is to a Thread I posted today.
I am nor sure I know what a Sweet Sounding DAC is, or exactly what the OP is referring to by using the phrase.
I heard for the first time this weekend a SS DAC that I would really be happy to live with, the idea for me, that it won favour prior to and during a comparison experience, speaks volumes for this DAC.
Is it Valve Like, 'No'. Does it give the impression it can be listened to for numerous hours without conjuring the feeling fatigue is close at hand. 'Yes'.
Does that mean it carries traits that can be referred to as Sweet. 'I don't know', maybe, possibly.
Was it Cherry Pie, 'You Bet'.
https://forum.audiogon.com/posts/2544316
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This thread largely reads like an assortment of dac advertisements put together. The higher end dac sales must be struggling these days, eh dealers? Lol
OP, get any decent R2R or multibit dac and skip delta sigma. That constraint alone will weed out all the overpriced delta sigma being advertised for your price bracket. To fully address your need for soft analog sound, get the Schiit Lokius or Loki max analog EQ. Start fine tuning the eq knobs, reduce the air, thicken up the lower mids, etc till it sounds very analog to you. It is a easy solution actually.
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I appreciate all of your suggestions. Incredible how many choices there are out there.
I had the opportunity to demo a Synthesis Audio Roma 69 DAC.
It provided great tonal density and timbre. Perhaps a bit on the darker side of the sound spectrum, but overall quite nice.
May be the winner.
Has anyone had experience with the Synthesis brand?
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To address the topic, I have used the Eleven Audio Sagra DAC (R2R Ladder DAC) for almost 3 years and found it to be on the sweeter side, non-fatiguing, but still dynamic. It is a 1/2 width DAC ( which was desired), has USB, Co-Ax, and I believe AES/EBU ( I used USB from my server). Price is right in the ballpark. Be aware, it comes in a box with a checklist from the factory testing and nothing else- no manual, no power cord, no cheap digital cable, just great sound. Recently replaced by the T+A DAC200 at double the price.
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get any decent R2R or multibit dac and skip delta sigma
uninformed and far too simplistic
dac conversion method is but one of several equally important elements driving a dac’s sonic performance
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uninformed and far too simplistic
dac conversion method is but one of several equally important elements driving a dac’s sonic performance
Uninformed and far too simplistic, eh? Try fooling someone else...For his 3.5k to 5k budget for that ’analog like’ sound, it actually costs around that much to fab certain R2R dacs. He’ll get his money’s worth. When someone’s charging 5k for a delta sigma dac, yeah right, the extra fluff’s worth all that much...NOT.
The fpga gimmicks in some DS offerings to provide that ’analog like’ sound tend to be priced at the price of an arm and a leg, but, you probably peddle one of them, don’t you?
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The fpga gimmicks in some DS offerings to provide that ’analog like’ sound tend to be priced at the price of an arm and a leg, but, you probably peddle one of them, don’t you?
to simplistic and uninformed, i would also add utterly clueless and insulting -- suggestion to you... learn more, spout less
https://youtu.be/_8wc25tnbH8
https://youtu.be/dHuaLgCniAg
https://youtu.be/zdnHEWAaBzE
its an arm and a leg only when you can’t afford it... to the rest of us, it’s only money...
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@mdrone Great News that you have been able to receive a demo' of a DAC. Carrying out the footwork and experiencing the sonic being created with ones own ears and evaluating the sonic as a result of perceptions being created is a extremely Valuable use of ones time, in relation to learning about audio set ups.
Out of interest the model demo'd being the Synthesis Audio Roma 69 DAC, does not seem to have appeared anywhere in this Thread. How did you discover this model? I see it is with a proportion of the circuit being a design as a Tube Circuit.
Did this get demo'd in a Dealership Premises or the Home System?
I own a Valve DAC with E88CC Tubes and have experiences of it compared to SS DAC's.
I feel very confident in stating this DAC does not create a perception of being overbearing, it has airiness and a voluminous room filling presence, that is always commented on for the attraction it creates.
The sonic trait being described by yourself, after extending listening could become a detractor, as like a overwhelming Bass Bloom, and become a repellent, where listening experiences develop into something to be endured.
Caveat Emptor is always ones friend, try not to pull the Trigger on a purchase prematurely.
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Are you suggesting that your E88CC DAC becomes overwhelming over time?
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Are you suggesting that your E88CC DAC becomes overwhelming over time?
I am not suggesting this, or is it a experience I have had.
I have experienced E88CC / 6922 Tubes from a desirable vintage during Tube Rolling that can screech and is an immediate repellent when compared to other Tubes during the rolling experience.
In relation to your post sharing the info' about the demo' you have had.
I'm suggesting your demo' received has left you having perceived a sonic trait.
I do not know if this was as a result of using the DAC in your own system or on another.
It is hard to determine if a demo' is not carried out in the home system, if a detected trait will become more noticeable, maintained to a similar presence, or blended to a lesser presence. The buyer has to live with their decisions made, the musical encounter that is able to be created, is for the best one that is able to be experienced for long periods, not feeling the need to shorten the experience as a result of a sonic being produce by a particular device prematurely causing a listening fatigue.
Hence I suggest that now the trait is known, it might be for the best, if an experience is had with a few others models to see how these leave an impression.
Hence, Caveat Emptor, or Buy in Haste, Repent at Leisure.
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Got it, thanks for the clarification.
No worries I have been sampling DACs whilst reading these online suggestions.
To date have heard - at home for at least one week at a time- the Wattson Madison, Merason Frerot, Lab 12, Konus 2000 and most recently the Synthesis. Not to mention my earlier Linn Akurate and Heed ( previously in a second home system)
Like many decision this one will be based on several attributes including sound ( most important), footprint, connectivity, price and how the results of the sale of my current Bricasti.
I appreciate your concern regarding a hasty decision. Believe me, this has not been a hasty process.
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Older thread, but happy to come to the defense of the Gold Note DS-10. I use this Dac with its external power supply and really enjoy it. Running it with a Luxman 590axii Class A amp and Buchardt s400 mkii speakers in my second system in my office.
The Gold Note DS-10 has some settings which allow one to adjust the sound, but I find it’s default setting is great. I suspect there are Dacs which dig for more information. I would consider the Gold Note dac to be musical vs. analytical.
IMHO its a keeper.
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