Swarming!
Hello, just about to join the DBA swarm club. I already have a two Vandersteeen 2wq subs (active) on my system. I just bought locally a pair of B&W CT SW10 passive subs which are 4 ohms each. A Dayton Sa1000 amp should be arriving in the next few days. I understand that the passive subs should be wired in series in order to not overload the amp. Any other recommendations in to completing this DBA into my system, My main speakers are Gradient Revolutions which have already a 80hz high pass between pre out to amp because of the way the Vandy subs work. I will be using the other pre output for the Dayton amp. |
the swarm was going to be the room treatment.+1 This is how to think about it. Vangelis- Conquest of Paradise soundtrack (LP)Global Communication 76 14 (LP)Massive Attack 100th Window (45rpm edition)King Crimson Islands (US Atlantic white cover edition LP)Emerson Lake and Palmer S/T (Pink Island edition LP)Gregory Alan Isakov with the Colorado Symphony (LP)World's Great Composers (Reader's Digest 12LP set- Rite of Spring) |
Hello benzman, I'm actually an Audi man, but regardless, I wholeheartedly welcome you to the DBA club! Enjoy. Hello jtcf, Thanks for the shout out but I've always felt I had no choice but to spread the word on the DBA, to my fellow A/V enthusiasts and music lovers, ever since I first experienced how incredibly well it actually performs. Tim |
A couple of recordings with good low bass Jump into the Fire - Harry Nillson Pickles and Schizoozy (two songs) from Appalachia Waltz featuring Edgar Meyer's acoustic bass A shout out to Tim for posting and reposting to spread awareness of this approach.Especially for those of us with less than ideal rooms it's a remarkable thing. |
Going over this thread re reading it again@noble100 I run all 4 of my subs in mono because there’s no such thing as stereo imaging with deep bass below 80 Hz. Plus there’s virtually no recorded music with discrete bass channels below 100 Hz, anywaysHi Tim, thanks for clarifying on that, I was wrong, I thought the actual content my differ when I wrote that post but now that I’m getting into analog in a more serious way and understanding more about how recording are made, microphone placement, imaging creation etc I realize there is nothing wrong with mono (as I was taught to think). |
I like the way you think!! I built this room with the idea of no acoustical treatments. Angled front walls , soffits gently sloping to a coffered ceiling , proper furniture , double 5/8 drywall with green glue,etc. the swarm was going to be the room treatment. I am sure the amps and woofers need a few days to break in but I can already hear the improvement to an already great sounding system. |
That was my experience, immediately excellent results from the first haphazard placement. Tried a lot of things- moving subs (including the crawl method), reversing and adjusting phase, even tried different series/parallel to get 4, 8 and 16 ohms. Tremendous amount of work to learn almost all the difference is in setting crossover and level. Next would be impedance. Then springs. Moving the subs around, phase, etc, hardly noticeable at all. You can mess with apps, a lot of guys just love tech, but I wouldn't waste my time. The problem is the equal loudness curves. The lower we go the more the volume levels converge. And these things go low! What this means is you can tweak and do whatever to get perfect results by whatever meter you use, and even get it to sound absolutely perfect. At one volume level. The minute you turn it down, there went the bass. Or turn it up, oh now too much. Its like you need a continuous loudness adjustment. Also some recordings have near zero really low bass. If you adjust levels using one of those, good luck, a better recording will blow you out. Or just the opposite, some are real bass heavy. This is not like trying to get midrange/treble right because those are there all the time every recording you can hear them just fine. Deep bass however, until you get a DBA its hard to believe just how much deep bass has been there all along, its just been in hiding. So what I did, after zinging back and forth pretty dramatically in the beginning (because of all the above reasons) was just let it alone a while. Listen to a lot of different stuff at a range of volume levels. Then every once in a while make a judicious teeny tiny little tweak. Lather rinse repeat. Takes a while but got to where its been pretty amazing for quite a while now. |
Ok, just got my swarm set up. Wanted to tweak my 2 channel first in the new room 27x17x10 all one room. Set up in a golden ration configuration Twin Dayton amps ( dead quiet) I have the 2 subs behind the listening position with the port plugs removed . Just by going by Dukes recommended setup sounds pretty good but know there is much more. Any recommended software for the IPad Pro, I phone ? I wouldn’t mind spending a few bucks on the program if it was easy enough to use. Any songs that make your swarm really shine? I was playing Malia and the Ozone percussion gang and it was pretty impressive. Thanks for any tipsRuss |
Hello all, You all know my excellent experiences with the Swarm DBA by now. I had spent an even $1 million on my system at the time but wasn’t quite satisfied with the bass performance. So, I splurged another $3K on the Swarm and suddenly my system actually sounded like a million bucks, plus at least about another $3K and tax. I think we could describe how well it performs until we’re all blue in the face and few would believe us, it’s too good to be true. But I know almost anyone would be completely convinced how incredibly well it performs by even just a brief audition. One listen is probably worth all our words of praise combined. Later, Tim |
Well it certainly improved my sub million dollar LRS, LS50s, Ologe5s, B&W Matrix 801S2s and now my new Harbeth SHL5+40ths. A Harbeth 40.2 review in The Absolute Sound pointed out that while this speaker does not need subwoofers, it will greatly benefit using them because of it’s really good bass response. I am still just wrapping my head around how the DBA does what it does. But it makes sense that the quality of bass response in a speaker will only be augmented by a DBA (or any subwoofer configuration). Trash in trash out? @noble100 - Nice to hear from you! Thought you went elsewhere. |
This old thread popped up recent and its good, because this is still just about the best-kept secret in audio. Everyone needs to know, because where else in audio can you get bona fide SOTA anything for only about $3k? With bass you can! What everyone used to think was the hardest thing to do, turns out to be easy and even relatively inexpensive. Improves even million dollar Wilsons! Sorry. Couldn't resist. But it does! 😂😂😂 |
dnicol: "
@noble100 I see you're running a 326S, (380S here) are you splitting an unbalanced out for the SA1000? I'm also going to try setting xover point lower as well. I do like the phase straight up at 90 though." Hello dnicol, The 326S has l+r unblanced outputs and I'm using those to connect to the SA1000. BTW, I'm thoroughly impressed with all the ML preamps I've heard thus far: 326S, 380S, 526 and No. 32. Tim |
Not hearing any mech buzz from the SA1000 during operation, dead quiet, only thump on shutdown, a few times it did not do it though, might be because I'm changing the preamp out to unused output before shutting down the dayton that's doing it. Also agree with Subsonic Filter on and Bass Boost off. @noble100 I see you're running a 326S, (380S here) are you splitting an unbalanced out for the SA1000? I'm also going to try setting xover point lower as well. I do like the phase straight up at 90 though. I tried setting 1 at reverse polarity, didn't do much for me. 1 of the drivers is loaded right at a rear corner, which was suggested to me. Ended up raising off the floor about 3 feet and against side wall like the others, much better. No HT here, and no single listening position, trying to make the entire room sweet spot since that's how I listen, these really help that effect. |
Yes, the Dayton is not operating correctly if there's a thump, buzz or hum. With my AK Debra, I found the overall bass sounded boosted if any of the subs were positioned within about 2 feet of a corner. It won't harm anything even if you put a sub in each corner. I just prefer my bass powerful, dynamic, smooth, fast, accurate, detailed and natural without overemphasis. I tried wiring 1 of the subs in reverse polarity as the procedures suggest, one at a time, but without noticing a positive effect. I run all of mine in-phase and ported. My goal was to set the level and crossover frequency both as low as possible with the bass still sounding powerful, smooth, detailed and natural to me. My main speakers only have a rated bass extension of 35 Hz so I run them full range with the Dayton's level set at about 11:00 (slightly below half volume) and the crossover set at 40 Hz. This results in the deep bass being perceived as seamlessly blended or integrated with my main speakers but the bass is still very powerful, dynamic, natural that can even be a bit startling on music and HT when the source content dictates for sudden powerful bass reproduction. Welcome to the DBA club, dnicol, have you paid your yearly dues yet? Best wishes, Tim |
@dnicolCongrats on the Swarm! Yes, the DBA does integrate very smoothly. By far the best subwoofer solution I have experienced. I will try my best at this using quotes from Duke LeJeune (Swarm DBA inventor): 1) Sealed mode is generally better for smaller rooms, and ported mode is generally better for large and/or open-floorplan rooms. I use one sub ported (the one that's in a front corner) and the other three are sealed, and the sealed sub in the very back of the room is in reverse polarity – just to give an example. My room is 14 x 17 and this is what I do. 2) As a general ballpark starting point, I suggest the parametric EQ controls be set for minimum effect: Frequency at 18, Bandwidth at .1, and Level at 0, or about 2:00 on the dial. On the low-pass filter controls, set the Phase at 0, and again as a ballpark starting point, you might try Frequency between 8:00 and 9:00, and Gain at perhaps 10:00. On the back of the amp, turn the Subsonic Filter ON for now (and consider keeping it on if you listen to vinyl), and turn the Bass Boost OFF if you plan to use the subs mostly or all ported, and ON if you plan to use them mostly or all sealed. These are ballpark suggestions just to get you started. You will have a lot of power and output capability on tap, and there is no combination of settings that will overdrive the woofers unless you hit them with very high power signals below 18 Hz in vented mode with the subsonic filter disengaged. I also follow this but have left phase at 0. I also found the need to alter the gain depending on the mains I run (higher with efficient speakers). 3) - See response to 1) 4) I have 2 subs elevated, each one an inch from the wall and facing the ceiling. The floor subs are an inch from the walls but only because I face them parallel to the walls. Otherwise at least 3 inches clearance is advised. 5) I had 2 Daytons thump on shutdown. One was a refurbished unit. The other was brand new. Still working with Parts Express on this.Will let you know what happens. Do you hear a mechanical buzz from your Dayton? |
Just got a swarm debra system, using dayton SA1000, questions for those who have set these up. 1) What are the effects of blocking the ports, why would you want to do that? 2) I'm setting the amp at 90 degree phase, 75 hz freq, not using the EQ. What settings do you use and why? Playing with gain around 10-11 oclock. 3) Does anyone wire 1 of the drivers reverse polarity? 4) All my drivers are facing the wall, about 1-2 inches out. One of them is corner loaded. Just initially set them this way, I know the instructions/procedures, but I wanted to see performance by just dropping them in place based on my room diagram, Jim gave me positioning based on that. Thoughts? 5) SA1000 thumps on shut down, gain control all the way down. Preamp feeding it had been set to an unused input, 0 volume. Not sure I like that. Shouldn't do this? This DBA system integrates very smoothly, and does not smear the mains. In fact it compliments them much more then other subs I've tried. Thanks for the help. |
Hello mizike, RCA cables are only utilized to connect line-level outputs from other components to the Swarm’s Dayton SA1000 sub amp’s line-level Left/Right and LEF inputs. Single lines of speaker wire are utilized to connect all four subs to the Dayton sub amp’s two sets (A and B) of pos./neg. speaker-level output terminals in a series/parallel configuration. Series/parallel configuration consists of a single speaker wire from the sub amp’s A pos. output terminal to sub#1’s pos input terminal, a single speaker wire from the sub amp’s A neg. output terminal to sub#2’s neg. input terminal and a third single speaker wire from sub#2’s pos, input terminal to sub#1’s neg. input terminal to complete the series/parallel circuit for subs #1 and #2. Subs #3 and #4 are also connected in series/parallel configuration to the sub amp’s B pos.and neg. output terminals in the same manner. Any signal loss caused by long speaker wire runs are compensated for through increasing the Dayton sub amp’s volume/level control. Series/parallel hookup also allows the Dayton amp to be under an overall single 4 ohm load, even though each of the individual 10” subs are rated at 4 ohms, and therefore the amp is able to output a total of 1,000 watts to power them. The overall result in my system and room is mono bass from 4 relatively small subs at 12”x14.5”x28” and 40 pounds, that Is sufficiently fast, smooth and detailed to blend seamlessly with my very fast, smooth and detailed Magnepan 3.7i main speakers. At the same time, the total bass output is capable of being as deep, powerful and dynamic as the source material calls for, down to 20 Hz +/- 3 db and at an output SPL of up to 115 db. The 4-sub DBA concept has proven to be an excellent complement to my main speakers, since it provides the high quality, powerful and dynamic bass below about 35 Hz that my main speakers, having a rated bass extension of 35 Hz, are not capable of providing. I also realize that my main speakers having a bass extension of only 35 Hz is actually a blessing in disguise. This is because I’m certain that having 4 independently positioned subs in a distributed bass array in my room results in superior bass quality performance than 2 bass transducers, being restricted to being positioned in the same relative room position and panel as my main speakers’ other transducers, would be capable of producing, even if they were planar-dynamic dipole panels with bass extension down to 20 Hz +/- 3 db and capable of doing so at a 115 db SPL Tim |
Congrats. I have similar same size small room with Kef ls50s and one game but measly Klipsch sub 8” albeit with two additional 8” passive radiators for three drivers total facing side forward and side and I know how good even that sounds. I bought that specific compact sub with the 3 drivers facing different directions for reasons similar to why one would run multiple separate subs. I have the bass dialed in at my main listening spot and it stays fairly consistent at other locations as well. I suspect the 3 drivers facing different directions helps. I can’t envision 4 separate subs in such a small room but once set up well why not? |
One more question. With the idea of swarming subs, what about long runs of single ended(RCA)cable? Is that going to be a problem with a 30' plus run? @mizmike I use a 6' RCA cable in my Swarm. Duke at Audio Kinesis suggested not going any longer than that unless running balanced.@mizike, what problems might you be anticipating? I Swarm differently than most around here as I don't use active subs and do not use the Dayton Audio amp that is part of the AudioKinesis offering. That being said I run 20' plus unbalanced RCA terminated cables to my bass amp and have no issues whatsoever. |
Let’s clear the air since Millercarbon might have Vandersteen Bass EQ confused with an equalizer. Both Tim and Duke know that I am a Swarm supporter if it works with your constraints and importantly crossed over to not impact stereo imaging which I highly value. Vandersteen speakers with built in subs include 11 bands of asymmetrical ( more cut than boost ) below 120 HZ and importantly NOT centered on octaves but on prevalent modes in domestic rooms. swarm can be accomplished by adding Additional subs. The sub amps are rugged power factor and feed forward designs. Used Vandy subs without EQ are available around $500 ish here all the time. Duke provides great products and help grounded in science and listening- a refreshing behavior Finally many room mode calculators include visualization tools for nodes associated w planes / surfaces which may help you understand placed one or more subs up high. have fun, enjoy the music !!! And the journey !!! |
“Tim, the Mini DSP looks interesting, everything I see shows coming off an AVR LFE out. I use a two channel pre amp. My system is for two channel music only. Do you own this product for further questions on use?“ mizike and luisma31, No, I don’t use a miniDSP or a iTube2, I just connect my preamp’s stereo left/right outputs and Blu-ray player’s mono LFE output to the Dayton sub amp/control unit which enables auto switching between the 4-sub DBA for music or HT. I run all 4 of my subs in mono because there’s no such thing as stereo imaging with deep bass below 80 Hz. Plus there’s virtually no recorded music with discrete bass channels below 100 Hz, anyways. Duke of Audio Kinesis also stated that some Swarm users use 2 Dayton amps and enjoy the effects of running a pair of subs on the right side of the room 90 degrees out of phase from the other pair on the left side of the room. I forgot what the effect is but I don’t bother with this either. Tim |
@big_greg thank you for your post, you are correct, impedance could be an issue but in my limited knowledge it depends a lot on the preamp you are using and its output impedance, I have an atmasphere pre myself and just out of curiosity I asked Ralph, in my case I'm outputting to my mains amp and to a Jensen balanced to single ended transformer, one channel of the transformer goes to the left amp powering 2 left subs and the right output to another amp powering the right sub. Someone said before the swarming was all mono and that is not correct, it all depends on the design, if you are using the SA1000 Daytons, for the cost and IMO and to avoid clipping 2 is better than one |
I initially set my 4 subs up using two Y splitters directly from my preamp. After reading about possible impedance issues and at the suggestion of others, I purchased a used iFi Micro iTube2. I now run the left and right output from my preamp into the iTube2 and have the Y splitters coming out of the output of the iTube 2. Two of the subs are connected by RCA cables and two are connected wirelessly. I didn't hear any noticeable difference after inserting the iTube 2, you might be fine running Y splitters right out of the preamp. I wish I could remember where I read that information as it was explained better than I can why impedance matching with multiple subs could be a problem. It might have been one of these: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/preamp-connection-to-multiple-powered-subwoofers https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/possible-impedance-matching-issue-with-subwoofer It was relatively inexpensive to add the iTube 2 and I decided "better safe than sorry". This approach allowed me to make individual adjustments to each sub, which was important in my case due to their locations. For example, I have the level down on the one in front which is pretty close to my turntable as well as one that is relatively close to my listening position. I have the crossover levels higher on the front subs than the ones in back. Hopefully someone with better technical knowledge can speak to the issue (or perhaps non-issue) of impedance matching your preamp to multiple subs and the use of a Y splitter. |
bdp24, I wish I had bought that version in the first place. Would have save me a lot of trouble. I had not heard of the swarm idea back then. I have owned these about 4 & 1/2 years. Thanks. Tim, the Mini DSP looks interesting, everything I see shows coming off an AVR LFE out. I use a two channel pre amp. My system is for two channel music only. Do you own this product for further questions on use? |
Hello mizike, You could also use a miniDSP to connect and control multiple subs: https://www.minidsp.com/applications/home-theater-tuning/tuning-multiple-subs Tim |
@mizike, the other way to use four Rythmik subs is to get the XLR2 version of their plate amp. That amp allows one to "daisy-chain" (or "piggyback") two subs together, one as master, the other slave. When so connected, all the crossover/phase/etc. settings on the master amp are fed to the slave, the latter's controls bypassed. |
@audiokinesis - Duke, you mentioned: For unusually demanding applications like yours, there is a custom high-output version of the Swarm which is not up on my website. The footprint is 14" square, the height depends on how low you want to go. Does this use the same Dayton amp? What are the differing heights for subwoofers? Would the individual heights be varied within a given high-output Swarm? I know I PMed you these questions but thought to post here so others may benefit from your response. And thanks again for going out of your way to resolve my refurbished amp issue so quickly! |
mac742:”Just in case anyone wants a good deal on the part-express (Dayton) SA-1000 power amp that Audiokinesis supplies with the Swarm is on sale for $374 bucks - the sale ends on April 30, so jump if ya want one at parts-express.com. Regular price is $549.” The Dayton SA-1000 amp control unit was also included with my Audio Kinesis Debra 4-sub DBA System. I think this amp is a good performer whether you’re using an AK Swarm/Debra 4-sub DBA system or creating your own custom DBA using 4 spassive subs of your choice. The SA-1000 has plenty of power at 1,000 watts, has the required 3 controls for volume, crossover frequency and continuously variable phase and it is a class AB amp rather than a class D amp which I believe reproduces bass more realistically and naturally. I’ve never read other members discussing the differences they perceive between subs powered by class AB vs class D amps but, based on my experiences, I do notice differences. Prior to purchasing my AK Debra 4-sub DBA, I tried using numerous pairs of good quality self-amplified subs all powered by class D plate amps In my room and system. Right away I noticed that 2 subs performed and sounded much better than a single sub and integrated more seamlessly with my fast and very detailed Magnepan Main speakers. The bass was very powerful, dynamic, detailed, smooth, fast ad very taut and tight. Overall, I enjoyed it very much. With the installation of the AK Debra 4-sub DBA, all the bass quality improvements I noticed with the use of 2 self-class D amplified subs were even further enhanced with the exception that most of the bass tautness and tightness was gone. Initially I missed this bass tautness and tightness but, the more I listened to the 4-sub DBA, the more I realized that the class D amplified subs were adding this quality to the bass. After listening to several music tracks of different genres, I determined that the Dayton SA-1000 powered subs sounded more natural to me, especially when I focused on bass note decays. The decays through the class D amps sound truncated in comparison to the naturally diminishing decays through the Dayton SA-1000 class AB amp. My theory is that the differences can be explained by the different Damping Factors of class AB amps, typically in the 100-400 range, and class D amps, typically well over 600 and often over 1000. The higher an amplifier’s damping factor, the greater control it has over starting and stopping a woofer’s movement. Tim |
Hello mizike, I would read your Rhythmik F12 manual to see if they have a method to connect multiple F12 subs together. The better sub companies, like Rhythmik, already understand the benefits of multiple subs in a room and have incorporated methods to hook up a single sub and then piggy-back more of their subs off of the first sub, usually at least up to 4 subs total. The first sub’s settings, for volume, crossover frequency and phase, typically control all attached subs. The left and right channel bass are usually summed to mono in the first sub and all subs are thus outputting mono bass as a group. This is optimum for best results but, don’t worry, you’ll perceive the bass in stereo once your main speakers are hooked up. Tim |
Just in case anyone wants a good deal on the part-express (Dayton) SA-1000 power amp that Audiokinesis supplies with the Swarm is on sale for $374 bucks - the sale ends on April 30, so jump if ya want one at parts-express.com. Regular price is $549. I owned one of these for a few years. They are worth what you pay for them. Take that statement any way you like. |
I have been reading along with this thread to learn what I can about this swarm technique. I own 2 Rythimik subs the F12 model, nice subs. If I want to add two more what is the best way to do that? With a Y adaptor or is there a better solution? I use this system for 2 channel listing only. I have an Aesthetix Calypso pre amp with PS audio M700 monos. |
Duke, Thank you for the reply and on the new T1.5 speaker purchase. It figures, I would need a custom high output solution for my particular needs. The room is closed off and one contiguous space, concrete slab, and concrete on three walls. Additional construction notes; rear wall double wall with 2" gap, Quietrock 540 on all walls and ceiling, spray foam under joists, Roxul Safe and Sound batting below spray foam, and in walls, resilient channel, Green Glue, bamboo hardwood floor; 33 feet deep, well actually exposed 30 feet long, have a false wall for the acoustics transparent Black Diamond screen and B&W 804Diamonds, and Nautilus HTM1 center, and Velodyne subs. The pocket behind screen is probably about 3 feet deep by 10 feet wide usable space for the AV speakers. I have 20 amp circuit behind screen. The width of room is 19 feet. Have two rows of 3 curved seating and a bar table in back of room. Back corner has Giks bass absorbers, and front corners have Gik hybrid diffusor bass absorbers. Front wall has about 4 foot wide stone veneers on left and right sides for natural diffusion. After measuring room frequency response, I added the additional Vicoustic and Gik wall diffusors. See pics for more information. https://www.amazon.com/photos/shared/2QT4BvZhQB-vSIcbi9SxPA.4XPoLe8t7q0ECDLoEPaH8u V/r Audioquest4life |
@audioquest4life wrote: "
I ordered the Classic Audio Loudspeakers T1.5 reference" Congratulations! AWESOME speaker!! Audioquest4life: "I love that I can turn the volume way up on the subs when playing Back in the Saddle by Aerosmith, and just go with the beat, no need for audiophile superlatives for those occasions, its just play loud, and that's what I want and like... 33'x19' room... 120 dB output... " For unusually demanding applications like yours, there is a custom high-output version of the Swarm which is not up on my website. The footprint is 14" square, the height depends on how low you want to go. Regarding your room - is it open into adjacent rooms or hallways? Duke |
Interesting read here. I am researching the SWARM/DBA system through the forum here and other places. I had B&W Nautilus 800s with two sealed 15" subs, the B&W ASW850 and the HSU Research ULS15. I use a Velodyne SMS-1 EQ and my room is custom built with lots of sound mitigation in the walls, ceiling, etc. from my technology transfer experiences building secure spaces for "organizations". What I like about having the SMS-1 EQ is that I can turn the volume up liberally to enjoy super rock tunes when I want to...I mean thump you in the chest rock, but, I don't always play that way because I am a cool audio geek, and listen to audiophile recordings, or music at normal listening levels most of the time, with the subs blended ever so slightly above the cutoff frequency of 36db for the speakers. I have analyzed and measured slope, roll-off, phase, volume, 12 vs 24 cutoff, etc., for years and feel confident in being able to match my subs with the speakers. BREAK: All of that is about to end. I ordered the Classic Audio Loudspeakers T1.5 reference and will be here after all of this Covid stuff is over. So, now, I have some issues. One, the T1.5's are bigger then the N800s's, so subs have to move out of the spot behind, left and right of current layout. Nope, they stick out way too much and are just big, 95 and 90lbs each so cant put them anywhere else. I like my cake and eat it too when it comes to loud music, as described above, with chest thumping bass, when I want to, because I rock and roll, and I do the audiophile lower level listening thing just for listening to music and the details, trumpet here, soft sultry voice there, cymbals splash, etc., but, I love that I can turn the volume way up on the subs when playing Back in the Saddle by Aerosmith, and just go with the beat, no need for audiophile superlatives for those occasions, its just plays loud, and that's what I want and like. So, does the DBA give someone like me the opportunity to rock the house while enjoying the benefits of blended bass the rest of the time? IME, no matter how much you measure a room, and subs, high volume is going to skew your environment as we set a target measuring volume of 80db normally, and adjust whatever EQ if measuring for the warble tones to measure as flat as possible at the pre-set volume and the frequency being tested. I am assuming for most of the time, the DBA would be a great fit for my system due to the smaller size of the DBA system, I can place 4 DBA speakers scattered around the room (33'x19') and not worry about the bulkiness of the subs. I would even have room behind the T.15's for the DBA's and along the walls where I have natural stone columns jutting out, the DBA could just nestle on either left or right side of said column. I know I would have to measure, but that is fun to me. Anyway, long story short, can the 4 speaker SWARM/DBA rock and roll way past the point of 80DB reference points. My subs could produce 120db output if called to do, and do they ever get called for Back in the Saddle. How loud can the SWARM/DBA get? Thanks for reading my mini journal only to get the BLUF at the end. Audioquest4life |
I got a Dayton SA 1000 amp refurbished from Parts Express for $250. Duke at AudioKinesis suggested I go for it as it would save me cash. The amp started making a mechanical hum and caused the subs to occasionally make a popping sound. I called Duke who said he would ship me a replacement amp ASAP so I wouldn’t be Swarmless for a while. I really can’t say enough about Duke’s unwavering commitment to quality customer service and of course SOTA products. Simply outstanding! Parts Express was very professional and polite. They decided to refund me and let me keep the amp as they can't do anything with RMA returns on refurbished items. I plan on using two Daytons with my Swarm for a while. But with 2 Daytons, I may eventually call Duke for 4 (or quite possibly more) subs and using the other Dayton to set up a second Swarm in my living room to go with a pair of B&W Matrix 801 S2s. Safe and happy listening everyone! |
Hello lemonhaze, You’re probably right. But the DBA is so good,imho, one audition on music or HT would likely convince most to buy. I know there’s a lot of reluctance to using subs in one’s system for some silly reason, but I believe most on this site would want one if they ever demoed one. But it’s very hard to Find a shop that offers them.I think a lot of members may never know what they’re missing. Later, Tim |
@noble100 Hi Tim, thanks for the info. I'm doing a lot of research to educate myself regarding this mysterious, to me, streaming. Much of it is rather confusing but I'll get there in the end. The DBA system deserves wider exposure but I think retail outlets are reluctant to acknowledge this and demonstrate its worth because they need to make a profit and the bigger and the more expensive the pair of main speakers they can sell the customer, the bigger the profit. I can see the crafty salesman, when questioned about a DBA, saying "Sir if you buy this monster pair of speakers here you won't need subs, besides I'm sure you don't want all those big ugly boxes cluttering up your room, do you?" all the while shaking his head from side to side with the hapless customer also shaking his head from side to side in agreement. |
Hello Hans/hleeid, I’m really glad you, with Duke’s assistance, were able to implement the AK Swarm system in your small room and that you’re enjoying its performance so much. I was so stunned by the excellent bass produced in my room when I Initially installed my 4-sub DBA system that I felt a responsibility to spread the word about how well this concept actually works in practice. I’ve always found it difficult, however, to accurately describe how amazingly well the DBA concept actually works without sounding like I’m exaggerating, a shill with a hidden agenda or a fan boy who just polished off the entire contents of the DBA Kool-aid punchbowl. I agree with you that just a single DBA demo would be sufficient fo convince most individuals of its remarkable effectiveness. The reality is that it does sound too good to be true, no pun intended. I believe the biggest obstacle to more widespread use of the 4-sub DBA concept is that there seems to be very few audio shops that offer demos of it. In my experience, I’ve never heard, or heard of, a single demo and we both know it just takes a brief demo to be convinced. The only other method of experiencing the DBA is by learning of it and then taking the initiative, and having the good sense, to try one out in your own room and system. Apparently, neither of these methods being very common explains the lack of usage and enjoyment. I’m also glad you tried out the different configurations I suggested. I only have experience using 1-4 subs on the floor in my room. I’ve learned that placing subs in corners provides more bass but that keeping them a couple feet away from corners provides the highest quality bass without sacrificing too much bass quantity, power and dynamic impact. However, I have no experience positioning subs on the vertical plane. So, the positioning experiments I suggested were just based on my limited knowledge, experience locating subs on the floor and reasoning. I’m glad you took the time to try them out and found some further improvements. Very interesting. Thanx, Tim |
