Congratulations on your new reference . I was using my own 4 sub set up for two years . This setup makes a small system sound like a large one .Play some live music and enjoy
Swarming!
Hi folks!
Hope everyone is doing well.
I just got my Swarm Distributed Subwoofer Array from AudioKinesis hooked up.
Wow!
Pre Swarm setup:
Office (10 x 14 minus closets):
Amp: Hegel H190 integrated, Bryston P26 preamp, Ampzilla 2000 Second Edition monoblock amps
Speakers: KEF LS 50 non wireless, Ologe 5, Magnepan LRS
So two subs arrived yesterday (Saturday).
With two subs and the Dayton amp, I first hooked up one sub in various positions on the floor.
Listened to a variety of music.
Played around with the gain.
After four crawls and two more "just to confirm" crawls, I located and left Sub 1.
I’m still a newbie here so apologies in advance if the proper terminology escapes me when I try to describe all the ways everything (not just the bass) just sounds a lot better.
While it sounded better than three other subs I tried, the bass got less clear soon after the gain was up enough to hear the sub and especially when I moved around the room.
Now, with Sub 1 optimally (for now) placed, Sub 2 took the rest of the evening.
Sub 2 is ceiling facing (3" clearance from the ceiling) on a long shelf behind the listening position.
Spent a few hours sliding it left and right, flipping it over to fire the port in the opposite direction, etc.
Flipped it three times.
My back was starting to complain when I first got it up on the shelf. These things are heavy and awkward to remove from a high shelf when flipping over, not to mention the heart stopping, lose balance or grip on the sub, close call moments!
Decided to leave it in the corner where the shelf meets the right wall with the port facing the corner and wait for the other subs.
The improvement, though not significant, was more than noticeable at my listening position.
The improvement started to get significant when I rolled my chair around the room or got up and walked around.
Things sounded pretty good in more areas of the room.
I heard more quality out of the newly added quantity of bass.
The other two subs arrived today.
Duke at AudioKinesis suggested varying the heights of the ceiling facing sub(s) if possible as this will affect the vertical plane.
So,...
Subs 3 and 4 are also ceiling facing with a 6" clearance located in the left and right front corners of the room.
They are perched on steel wire shelving units allowing for one inch height increments. The added storage space with the shelves is a huge bonus!
Turned the music back on a little while ago.
What a mind blowing experience!
While the LRS made the room seem bigger, with all four subs firing, the Swarm seemed to add body, intensity and dynamics to the "bigger room". Just about anywhere in the room.
I can raise the gain much higher and actually enjoy the clarity and evenness in the added bass.
Bass is not lost at low volumes. I can actually hear more details in the bass without needing to raise the volume.
Absolutely love the LRS! Thought the bass was pretty good. Didn’t hit like the LS 50s but seemed more than adequate.
But after a satisfactory gain setting and listening with the Swarm added, I got up and turned the gain all the way down and listened to just the LRS.
The Swarm added such a high quality and intense "kick" to the low end that just went away.
This got me out of my chair again to bring the gain back up.
A remote for the Dayton sure would be great!
I just can’t imagine listening to my system without this really cool subwoofer solution!
Limited to a small room?
Yes, there are four sizeable subs and an additional amp to place.
I thought there was no way that would work in such a small 10’ x 14’room.
Why four subs?
For anyone not familiar with the Distributed Bass Array concept, search through these threads.
There are numerous postings on this by some really knowledgeable people. (millercarbon and noble100, especially)
With three of the subs up high, the fourth sub is the only additional piece taking up floor space.
It’s been only about 2 hours listening with the Swarm in place.
With just the first sub placed via crawling and the other three just put in place, everything sounds like my system had a major upgrade!
It’s actually quite shocking! Seriously.
Excited to experiment with the subwoofer heights, different amps and also with the LS 50s and Ologe 5s.
Kodus to Duke at AudioKinesis for building such an effective, simple and flexible subwoofer solution!
These things actually look pretty cool too! Zero WAF issues!
Stay safe and healthy everyone!
Hope everyone is doing well.
I just got my Swarm Distributed Subwoofer Array from AudioKinesis hooked up.
Wow!
Pre Swarm setup:
Office (10 x 14 minus closets):
Amp: Hegel H190 integrated, Bryston P26 preamp, Ampzilla 2000 Second Edition monoblock amps
Speakers: KEF LS 50 non wireless, Ologe 5, Magnepan LRS
So two subs arrived yesterday (Saturday).
With two subs and the Dayton amp, I first hooked up one sub in various positions on the floor.
Listened to a variety of music.
Played around with the gain.
After four crawls and two more "just to confirm" crawls, I located and left Sub 1.
I’m still a newbie here so apologies in advance if the proper terminology escapes me when I try to describe all the ways everything (not just the bass) just sounds a lot better.
While it sounded better than three other subs I tried, the bass got less clear soon after the gain was up enough to hear the sub and especially when I moved around the room.
Now, with Sub 1 optimally (for now) placed, Sub 2 took the rest of the evening.
Sub 2 is ceiling facing (3" clearance from the ceiling) on a long shelf behind the listening position.
Spent a few hours sliding it left and right, flipping it over to fire the port in the opposite direction, etc.
Flipped it three times.
My back was starting to complain when I first got it up on the shelf. These things are heavy and awkward to remove from a high shelf when flipping over, not to mention the heart stopping, lose balance or grip on the sub, close call moments!
Decided to leave it in the corner where the shelf meets the right wall with the port facing the corner and wait for the other subs.
The improvement, though not significant, was more than noticeable at my listening position.
The improvement started to get significant when I rolled my chair around the room or got up and walked around.
Things sounded pretty good in more areas of the room.
I heard more quality out of the newly added quantity of bass.
The other two subs arrived today.
Duke at AudioKinesis suggested varying the heights of the ceiling facing sub(s) if possible as this will affect the vertical plane.
So,...
Subs 3 and 4 are also ceiling facing with a 6" clearance located in the left and right front corners of the room.
They are perched on steel wire shelving units allowing for one inch height increments. The added storage space with the shelves is a huge bonus!
Turned the music back on a little while ago.
What a mind blowing experience!
While the LRS made the room seem bigger, with all four subs firing, the Swarm seemed to add body, intensity and dynamics to the "bigger room". Just about anywhere in the room.
I can raise the gain much higher and actually enjoy the clarity and evenness in the added bass.
Bass is not lost at low volumes. I can actually hear more details in the bass without needing to raise the volume.
Absolutely love the LRS! Thought the bass was pretty good. Didn’t hit like the LS 50s but seemed more than adequate.
But after a satisfactory gain setting and listening with the Swarm added, I got up and turned the gain all the way down and listened to just the LRS.
The Swarm added such a high quality and intense "kick" to the low end that just went away.
This got me out of my chair again to bring the gain back up.
A remote for the Dayton sure would be great!
I just can’t imagine listening to my system without this really cool subwoofer solution!
Limited to a small room?
Yes, there are four sizeable subs and an additional amp to place.
I thought there was no way that would work in such a small 10’ x 14’room.
Why four subs?
For anyone not familiar with the Distributed Bass Array concept, search through these threads.
There are numerous postings on this by some really knowledgeable people. (millercarbon and noble100, especially)
With three of the subs up high, the fourth sub is the only additional piece taking up floor space.
It’s been only about 2 hours listening with the Swarm in place.
With just the first sub placed via crawling and the other three just put in place, everything sounds like my system had a major upgrade!
It’s actually quite shocking! Seriously.
Excited to experiment with the subwoofer heights, different amps and also with the LS 50s and Ologe 5s.
Kodus to Duke at AudioKinesis for building such an effective, simple and flexible subwoofer solution!
These things actually look pretty cool too! Zero WAF issues!
Stay safe and healthy everyone!
71 responses Add your response
Congratulations! Welcome to the club. Its a hard one to get into. First you have to understand a whole bunch of stuff that is actually not all that hard to follow except that it is so different than the accepted wisdom parroted dogmatically over and over again by almost everyone. If you actually do it though then the hardest thing to get your mind around is that it really does work so much better than would even seem possible. As you now know, it does! Its crazy because in most other things it is near impossible to have really state of the art performance, and even if you do it cost a small fortune. With bass however you can have true state of the art performance for like $3k. Not peanuts, but barely entry level in terms of speakers. You already made the plunge so this might be a little late but here's a neat video I only just discovered and you will notice he mentions a couple points you brought up. Quality bass has a powerful influence on our perception of the whole system quality. So just what you said. Only with studies to back it up. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McN2AygDMtQ Sounds like you already have it pretty well dialed in. Only advice I would give, listen to a lot of different stuff, consider carefully, and make any level changes very small. Whatever you think, make it less. Other than that sit back and enjoy the ride. You earned it! |
Awesome! Congratulations 😁. I have had an absolute horrid time ever trying to get 1 sub to sound good in my set-ups. For some reason I’ve been able to set up 2 different friends systems with only 1 sub that sound great. My brothers setup uses 2 and thats ok, better than 1. Anyhow, once you have heard well integrated subs, its hard to not want them. I have never heard a swarm set-up but I am really wanting to get one some day. It seems like everyone who has tried it loves it. You brought up an interesting point that I have been giving some thought to lately, and that is do you achieve smoother response with some subs at different heights / planes within the room. Apparently you do! And last, if you have any of your subwoofers on one of those somewhat flimsy wire shelfs, you should look into using an aurelex subdude under those! Happy Listenin’ |
@b_limo Thanks! I haven't gotten to staggering the shelf mounted sub heights. But the shelf units I got are the really heavy duty industrial ones. I have them each bolted to a side wall. Never heard of the
aurelex subdude. Just looked it up. Appreciate the tip! Initial overall impressions are that the bass can be augmented to levels that would otherwise muddy everything using just one or two subs. I can raise the gain higher than normal to bring out certain cello passages without adversely affecting the mids and highs. Having just conducted listening tests with one, two and finally four subs, I can truly attest to the audible differences. Even a newbie like me can hear the incredible improvements. Interesting point: My fiance asked: Why not just raise the bass on an equalizer?". I told her to have a seat and listen as I first raised the gain on the Dayton amp (Swarm). I then lowered the gain all the way and turned up the bass on the equalizer. Less than 30 seconds go by and I didn't have to say a word. I heard her loudly say: "Switch it back please! That was hurting my ears!" The LRS sound really awesome now with the Swarm. I just switched out the LRS and hooked up my Ologe 5s. Excited to see how they sound with the Swarm. |
I received my Swarm system last week with 2 Dayton amps but unfortunately my room isn’t ready due to the Covid and contractors Duke’s painter finished them in a furniture grade finish. Windy City color (kinda a greenish gray ) in a Benjamin Moore pearl finish. Absolutely gorgeous IF they sound anything like they look , I will be ecstatic!! |
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The SVS 3000 Sb swarm is stunning at $3600 for the 4 and energize to a true 18 hz speak about pressurizing a room. my friend says no going back. my brother having $$ has 4 of the SVS 16 ultra subs in each corner the impact is close to a live explosion . And the SVS has a excellent interface app to adjust the subs,as well as other programs. The Audio Kinesis swarm is much more user friendly for med sized rooms and Lower priced. |
Hello Hans/hleeid, Congratulations and welcome to the 4-sub DBA club! The AK Swarm and 4-sub DBA concept works so incredibly well that it almost seems like magic, especially how it works in virtually any room and with any pair of main speakers. Of course it’s actually the opposite of magic, since the whole concept is based on physics, scientifically proven acoustic principles and has been consistently empirically validated. Anecdotally, I had never heard of an instance of the 4-sub Swarm or custom DBA system not working in a room or system until the owner of Audio Kinesis, Duke Lejeune, stated he had encountered a couple of rooms in which the system initially did not work successfully.. But he stated he was able to make both of these systems function properly after specific minor adjustments. Your room was a good test of the concept since your room had insufficient floor space to accommodate the 4 relatively small Swarm subs. But Duke was even able to make the concept work in your floor space challenged room by suggesting you raise 3 of the 4 subs well above the floor, Kudos to Duke for knowing of and suggesting such a unique and effective solution. And kudos to you, Hans, for having the good sense to research the concept and having the curiosity as well as the spirit of adventure to give it a try. Your reactions to how amazingly well this concept works reminds me of my own reactions when I first experienced the bass results and seamless integration with my main speakers in my room over 5 years ago; a combination of disbelief, relief, excitement and audio bliss. Very satisfying and I can attest that these feelings are enduring. As to the questions concerning bass traps and room treatments, I initially had none in my room and just recently installed Stacked GiK bass traps (called TriTraps) in all 4 corners as well as a balance of GIK absorption and diffusion panels scattered about my room. With the added room treatments and bass traps, my perceptions are that the bass sounds equally as excellent but the midrange, treble and imaging sounding more detailed while at the same time sounding more relaxed, realistic and natural. My opinion is that the 4-sub DBA concept’s bass response will not be negatively affected by the use of bass traps or room treatments in my room, ymmv. Congrats and enjoy, Tim |
Thanks Tim! Good to hear your positive experience with room treatments. I have some "starter" bass traps from Arrowzoom and some acoustical insulation, DIY frame pieces etc. in the garage. Was so impressed with the Swarm that I didn't feel the urgency in deploying any of those. Guess I'll get around to completing my room treatment project a little sooner. |
Swarm tuning update: I switched my main speakers from the LRS to the Ologe 5 this morning. Sensitivity and frequency response ratings are close (Ologe 5: 89db LRS: 86db), and both reach down to about 50Hz. However, at similar volume levels, the LRS required noticeably less gain than the Ologe 5 but a bit higher frequency cutoff. The LRS also required more frequent gain adjustments depending on volume and the type of music playing. Couldn’t stop wearing out the gain knob a/b testing again with the Ologe 5! Same incredible improvement as with the LRS! Room "sounded" bigger with more body, energy and dynamics. And not just in terms of bass. The 3 tweeter array on the Ologe 5 probably helped widen the on axis area more than the LRS. As with the LRS, the Swarm made the room a bit bigger but fuller and more dynamic. Two very positive and significant results with two very different speakers! |
I have been using 4 JL Audio F-113 subs for quite a while now. But, I never thought about removing the corner ASC Bass traps. I may try it soon just to see what they do bring to the sound. BTW, my Hometheater adds another 4 subs with the bypass through on my preamp that makes 8 subs when playing movies! ozzy |
Hello Ozzy, I’m still waiting for your invite to movie night, sir! You know what they say about subs; ....4 subs sound and perform about twice as well as 2 subs and 8 subs are, as they say, good grounds for divorce. You’ve created the best, and likely most expensive, implementation of the DBA concept that I’m yet aware of. Congrats, Tim |
Earl Geddes has been a longtime proponent of multiple subs. There are a few other enlightened individuals who agree but it seems strange that this system is not more widely adopted. I assisted a good friend with set up of 3 subs in an awkward room and when we eventually found the best placement was knocked out with the result. I later took over a tiny pair of bookshelf speakers, adjusted the settings and slowly turned up the volume. Well talk about a WOW moment. We heard what could easily have been mistaken for a pair of large floorstanders, only thing is a single pair of speakers, which can be explained, can not produce the kind of bass we were hearing. If I high-passed the little speakers, relieving them of the bottom 2 octaves they would have been even better. Should anyone reading this wonder if bass trapping is necessary, it is, but the tiny foam things from Amazon or wherever simply can not, regardless of what they claim, absorb low frequencies. Unfortunately physics demand they be rather large. My recently installed traps are 900mm (35.5") across and run from floor to ceiling. I have measured the room and notice that I probably need more. Fortunately my wife actively encourages me. Hi noble100, your room looks great. Your pics show a unit sitting on top of the Oppo which appears to be a streamer. May I ask what it is you have there and how you came to choose it? |
Hello lemonhaze, You’re correct, that silver unit atop the Oppo is a Lumin D2 dac/streamer. The black box to the right of the Oppo is a 20 TB Synology hard drive storage unit I use with it along with an IPad, running the Lumin app as the GUI and remote. When I walked into a local dealer, I was originally intending to buy a Bluenote but, after demoing both on a Levinson 5805 integrated and Magico A3 speakers, I definitely thought the Lumin’s GUI and sound quality were better. The Lumin’s a bit more money but l thought it was worth it. it’s been a really good addition to my system. Later, Tim |
@noble100 - Hey Tim! I just reviewed the Swarm experiments you shared with me. I faced the 3 ceiling facing subs towards their respective walls in accordance with Experiment #2. I also slid the sub on the shelf away from the corner and faced it against the wall. Can't put my finger on it but can definitively hear increased clarity (probably from pulling one sub from the corner and facing it and the other two towards the walls) on some bass heavy tracks. Also, I have experimented staggering the vertical heights of the ceiling facing subs. FWIW - in my 10' x 14' minus closets space, lowering the front left and right ceiling facing subs to about 6' and 4' respectively yields greater ambiance, balance and coherence in a larger soundstage. What a remarkably simple, straightforward solution to achieving SOTA bass augmentation! I have had nothing but excellent results Swarming with 3 significantly different main speakers (Magnepan LRS, Ologe 5 and KEF LS 50s). Detractors - detract all you want. But I will bet just about anything that all it takes is an honest listening session to convert you or any detractor to hear and appreciate the logic of a properly set up DBA. Stay safe and healthy everyone! |
Hello Hans/hleeid, I’m really glad you, with Duke’s assistance, were able to implement the AK Swarm system in your small room and that you’re enjoying its performance so much. I was so stunned by the excellent bass produced in my room when I Initially installed my 4-sub DBA system that I felt a responsibility to spread the word about how well this concept actually works in practice. I’ve always found it difficult, however, to accurately describe how amazingly well the DBA concept actually works without sounding like I’m exaggerating, a shill with a hidden agenda or a fan boy who just polished off the entire contents of the DBA Kool-aid punchbowl. I agree with you that just a single DBA demo would be sufficient fo convince most individuals of its remarkable effectiveness. The reality is that it does sound too good to be true, no pun intended. I believe the biggest obstacle to more widespread use of the 4-sub DBA concept is that there seems to be very few audio shops that offer demos of it. In my experience, I’ve never heard, or heard of, a single demo and we both know it just takes a brief demo to be convinced. The only other method of experiencing the DBA is by learning of it and then taking the initiative, and having the good sense, to try one out in your own room and system. Apparently, neither of these methods being very common explains the lack of usage and enjoyment. I’m also glad you tried out the different configurations I suggested. I only have experience using 1-4 subs on the floor in my room. I’ve learned that placing subs in corners provides more bass but that keeping them a couple feet away from corners provides the highest quality bass without sacrificing too much bass quantity, power and dynamic impact. However, I have no experience positioning subs on the vertical plane. So, the positioning experiments I suggested were just based on my limited knowledge, experience locating subs on the floor and reasoning. I’m glad you took the time to try them out and found some further improvements. Very interesting. Thanx, Tim |
@noble100 Hi Tim, thanks for the info. I'm doing a lot of research to educate myself regarding this mysterious, to me, streaming. Much of it is rather confusing but I'll get there in the end. The DBA system deserves wider exposure but I think retail outlets are reluctant to acknowledge this and demonstrate its worth because they need to make a profit and the bigger and the more expensive the pair of main speakers they can sell the customer, the bigger the profit. I can see the crafty salesman, when questioned about a DBA, saying "Sir if you buy this monster pair of speakers here you won't need subs, besides I'm sure you don't want all those big ugly boxes cluttering up your room, do you?" all the while shaking his head from side to side with the hapless customer also shaking his head from side to side in agreement. |
Hello lemonhaze, You’re probably right. But the DBA is so good,imho, one audition on music or HT would likely convince most to buy. I know there’s a lot of reluctance to using subs in one’s system for some silly reason, but I believe most on this site would want one if they ever demoed one. But it’s very hard to Find a shop that offers them.I think a lot of members may never know what they’re missing. Later, Tim |
I got a Dayton SA 1000 amp refurbished from Parts Express for $250. Duke at AudioKinesis suggested I go for it as it would save me cash. The amp started making a mechanical hum and caused the subs to occasionally make a popping sound. I called Duke who said he would ship me a replacement amp ASAP so I wouldn’t be Swarmless for a while. I really can’t say enough about Duke’s unwavering commitment to quality customer service and of course SOTA products. Simply outstanding! Parts Express was very professional and polite. They decided to refund me and let me keep the amp as they can't do anything with RMA returns on refurbished items. I plan on using two Daytons with my Swarm for a while. But with 2 Daytons, I may eventually call Duke for 4 (or quite possibly more) subs and using the other Dayton to set up a second Swarm in my living room to go with a pair of B&W Matrix 801 S2s. Safe and happy listening everyone! |
Interesting read here. I am researching the SWARM/DBA system through the forum here and other places. I had B&W Nautilus 800s with two sealed 15" subs, the B&W ASW850 and the HSU Research ULS15. I use a Velodyne SMS-1 EQ and my room is custom built with lots of sound mitigation in the walls, ceiling, etc. from my technology transfer experiences building secure spaces for "organizations". What I like about having the SMS-1 EQ is that I can turn the volume up liberally to enjoy super rock tunes when I want to...I mean thump you in the chest rock, but, I don't always play that way because I am a cool audio geek, and listen to audiophile recordings, or music at normal listening levels most of the time, with the subs blended ever so slightly above the cutoff frequency of 36db for the speakers. I have analyzed and measured slope, roll-off, phase, volume, 12 vs 24 cutoff, etc., for years and feel confident in being able to match my subs with the speakers. BREAK: All of that is about to end. I ordered the Classic Audio Loudspeakers T1.5 reference and will be here after all of this Covid stuff is over. So, now, I have some issues. One, the T1.5's are bigger then the N800s's, so subs have to move out of the spot behind, left and right of current layout. Nope, they stick out way too much and are just big, 95 and 90lbs each so cant put them anywhere else. I like my cake and eat it too when it comes to loud music, as described above, with chest thumping bass, when I want to, because I rock and roll, and I do the audiophile lower level listening thing just for listening to music and the details, trumpet here, soft sultry voice there, cymbals splash, etc., but, I love that I can turn the volume way up on the subs when playing Back in the Saddle by Aerosmith, and just go with the beat, no need for audiophile superlatives for those occasions, its just plays loud, and that's what I want and like. So, does the DBA give someone like me the opportunity to rock the house while enjoying the benefits of blended bass the rest of the time? IME, no matter how much you measure a room, and subs, high volume is going to skew your environment as we set a target measuring volume of 80db normally, and adjust whatever EQ if measuring for the warble tones to measure as flat as possible at the pre-set volume and the frequency being tested. I am assuming for most of the time, the DBA would be a great fit for my system due to the smaller size of the DBA system, I can place 4 DBA speakers scattered around the room (33'x19') and not worry about the bulkiness of the subs. I would even have room behind the T.15's for the DBA's and along the walls where I have natural stone columns jutting out, the DBA could just nestle on either left or right side of said column. I know I would have to measure, but that is fun to me. Anyway, long story short, can the 4 speaker SWARM/DBA rock and roll way past the point of 80DB reference points. My subs could produce 120db output if called to do, and do they ever get called for Back in the Saddle. How loud can the SWARM/DBA get? Thanks for reading my mini journal only to get the BLUF at the end. Audioquest4life |
@audioquest4life wrote: "
I ordered the Classic Audio Loudspeakers T1.5 reference" Congratulations! AWESOME speaker!! Audioquest4life: "I love that I can turn the volume way up on the subs when playing Back in the Saddle by Aerosmith, and just go with the beat, no need for audiophile superlatives for those occasions, its just play loud, and that's what I want and like... 33'x19' room... 120 dB output... " For unusually demanding applications like yours, there is a custom high-output version of the Swarm which is not up on my website. The footprint is 14" square, the height depends on how low you want to go. Regarding your room - is it open into adjacent rooms or hallways? Duke |
Duke, Thank you for the reply and on the new T1.5 speaker purchase. It figures, I would need a custom high output solution for my particular needs. The room is closed off and one contiguous space, concrete slab, and concrete on three walls. Additional construction notes; rear wall double wall with 2" gap, Quietrock 540 on all walls and ceiling, spray foam under joists, Roxul Safe and Sound batting below spray foam, and in walls, resilient channel, Green Glue, bamboo hardwood floor; 33 feet deep, well actually exposed 30 feet long, have a false wall for the acoustics transparent Black Diamond screen and B&W 804Diamonds, and Nautilus HTM1 center, and Velodyne subs. The pocket behind screen is probably about 3 feet deep by 10 feet wide usable space for the AV speakers. I have 20 amp circuit behind screen. The width of room is 19 feet. Have two rows of 3 curved seating and a bar table in back of room. Back corner has Giks bass absorbers, and front corners have Gik hybrid diffusor bass absorbers. Front wall has about 4 foot wide stone veneers on left and right sides for natural diffusion. After measuring room frequency response, I added the additional Vicoustic and Gik wall diffusors. See pics for more information. https://www.amazon.com/photos/shared/2QT4BvZhQB-vSIcbi9SxPA.4XPoLe8t7q0ECDLoEPaH8u V/r Audioquest4life |
I have been reading along with this thread to learn what I can about this swarm technique. I own 2 Rythimik subs the F12 model, nice subs. If I want to add two more what is the best way to do that? With a Y adaptor or is there a better solution? I use this system for 2 channel listing only. I have an Aesthetix Calypso pre amp with PS audio M700 monos. |
Just in case anyone wants a good deal on the part-express (Dayton) SA-1000 power amp that Audiokinesis supplies with the Swarm is on sale for $374 bucks - the sale ends on April 30, so jump if ya want one at parts-express.com. Regular price is $549. I owned one of these for a few years. They are worth what you pay for them. Take that statement any way you like. |
Hello mizike, I would read your Rhythmik F12 manual to see if they have a method to connect multiple F12 subs together. The better sub companies, like Rhythmik, already understand the benefits of multiple subs in a room and have incorporated methods to hook up a single sub and then piggy-back more of their subs off of the first sub, usually at least up to 4 subs total. The first sub’s settings, for volume, crossover frequency and phase, typically control all attached subs. The left and right channel bass are usually summed to mono in the first sub and all subs are thus outputting mono bass as a group. This is optimum for best results but, don’t worry, you’ll perceive the bass in stereo once your main speakers are hooked up. Tim |
mac742:”Just in case anyone wants a good deal on the part-express (Dayton) SA-1000 power amp that Audiokinesis supplies with the Swarm is on sale for $374 bucks - the sale ends on April 30, so jump if ya want one at parts-express.com. Regular price is $549.” The Dayton SA-1000 amp control unit was also included with my Audio Kinesis Debra 4-sub DBA System. I think this amp is a good performer whether you’re using an AK Swarm/Debra 4-sub DBA system or creating your own custom DBA using 4 spassive subs of your choice. The SA-1000 has plenty of power at 1,000 watts, has the required 3 controls for volume, crossover frequency and continuously variable phase and it is a class AB amp rather than a class D amp which I believe reproduces bass more realistically and naturally. I’ve never read other members discussing the differences they perceive between subs powered by class AB vs class D amps but, based on my experiences, I do notice differences. Prior to purchasing my AK Debra 4-sub DBA, I tried using numerous pairs of good quality self-amplified subs all powered by class D plate amps In my room and system. Right away I noticed that 2 subs performed and sounded much better than a single sub and integrated more seamlessly with my fast and very detailed Magnepan Main speakers. The bass was very powerful, dynamic, detailed, smooth, fast ad very taut and tight. Overall, I enjoyed it very much. With the installation of the AK Debra 4-sub DBA, all the bass quality improvements I noticed with the use of 2 self-class D amplified subs were even further enhanced with the exception that most of the bass tautness and tightness was gone. Initially I missed this bass tautness and tightness but, the more I listened to the 4-sub DBA, the more I realized that the class D amplified subs were adding this quality to the bass. After listening to several music tracks of different genres, I determined that the Dayton SA-1000 powered subs sounded more natural to me, especially when I focused on bass note decays. The decays through the class D amps sound truncated in comparison to the naturally diminishing decays through the Dayton SA-1000 class AB amp. My theory is that the differences can be explained by the different Damping Factors of class AB amps, typically in the 100-400 range, and class D amps, typically well over 600 and often over 1000. The higher an amplifier’s damping factor, the greater control it has over starting and stopping a woofer’s movement. Tim |
@audiokinesis - Duke, you mentioned: For unusually demanding applications like yours, there is a custom high-output version of the Swarm which is not up on my website. The footprint is 14" square, the height depends on how low you want to go. Does this use the same Dayton amp? What are the differing heights for subwoofers? Would the individual heights be varied within a given high-output Swarm? I know I PMed you these questions but thought to post here so others may benefit from your response. And thanks again for going out of your way to resolve my refurbished amp issue so quickly! |
@mizike, the other way to use four Rythmik subs is to get the XLR2 version of their plate amp. That amp allows one to "daisy-chain" (or "piggyback") two subs together, one as master, the other slave. When so connected, all the crossover/phase/etc. settings on the master amp are fed to the slave, the latter's controls bypassed. |
Hello mizike, You could also use a miniDSP to connect and control multiple subs: https://www.minidsp.com/applications/home-theater-tuning/tuning-multiple-subs Tim |
bdp24, I wish I had bought that version in the first place. Would have save me a lot of trouble. I had not heard of the swarm idea back then. I have owned these about 4 & 1/2 years. Thanks. Tim, the Mini DSP looks interesting, everything I see shows coming off an AVR LFE out. I use a two channel pre amp. My system is for two channel music only. Do you own this product for further questions on use? |
I initially set my 4 subs up using two Y splitters directly from my preamp. After reading about possible impedance issues and at the suggestion of others, I purchased a used iFi Micro iTube2. I now run the left and right output from my preamp into the iTube2 and have the Y splitters coming out of the output of the iTube 2. Two of the subs are connected by RCA cables and two are connected wirelessly. I didn't hear any noticeable difference after inserting the iTube 2, you might be fine running Y splitters right out of the preamp. I wish I could remember where I read that information as it was explained better than I can why impedance matching with multiple subs could be a problem. It might have been one of these: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/preamp-connection-to-multiple-powered-subwoofers https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/possible-impedance-matching-issue-with-subwoofer It was relatively inexpensive to add the iTube 2 and I decided "better safe than sorry". This approach allowed me to make individual adjustments to each sub, which was important in my case due to their locations. For example, I have the level down on the one in front which is pretty close to my turntable as well as one that is relatively close to my listening position. I have the crossover levels higher on the front subs than the ones in back. Hopefully someone with better technical knowledge can speak to the issue (or perhaps non-issue) of impedance matching your preamp to multiple subs and the use of a Y splitter. |
@big_greg thank you for your post, you are correct, impedance could be an issue but in my limited knowledge it depends a lot on the preamp you are using and its output impedance, I have an atmasphere pre myself and just out of curiosity I asked Ralph, in my case I'm outputting to my mains amp and to a Jensen balanced to single ended transformer, one channel of the transformer goes to the left amp powering 2 left subs and the right output to another amp powering the right sub. Someone said before the swarming was all mono and that is not correct, it all depends on the design, if you are using the SA1000 Daytons, for the cost and IMO and to avoid clipping 2 is better than one |
“Tim, the Mini DSP looks interesting, everything I see shows coming off an AVR LFE out. I use a two channel pre amp. My system is for two channel music only. Do you own this product for further questions on use?“ mizike and luisma31, No, I don’t use a miniDSP or a iTube2, I just connect my preamp’s stereo left/right outputs and Blu-ray player’s mono LFE output to the Dayton sub amp/control unit which enables auto switching between the 4-sub DBA for music or HT. I run all 4 of my subs in mono because there’s no such thing as stereo imaging with deep bass below 80 Hz. Plus there’s virtually no recorded music with discrete bass channels below 100 Hz, anyways. Duke of Audio Kinesis also stated that some Swarm users use 2 Dayton amps and enjoy the effects of running a pair of subs on the right side of the room 90 degrees out of phase from the other pair on the left side of the room. I forgot what the effect is but I don’t bother with this either. Tim |
Let’s clear the air since Millercarbon might have Vandersteen Bass EQ confused with an equalizer. Both Tim and Duke know that I am a Swarm supporter if it works with your constraints and importantly crossed over to not impact stereo imaging which I highly value. Vandersteen speakers with built in subs include 11 bands of asymmetrical ( more cut than boost ) below 120 HZ and importantly NOT centered on octaves but on prevalent modes in domestic rooms. swarm can be accomplished by adding Additional subs. The sub amps are rugged power factor and feed forward designs. Used Vandy subs without EQ are available around $500 ish here all the time. Duke provides great products and help grounded in science and listening- a refreshing behavior Finally many room mode calculators include visualization tools for nodes associated w planes / surfaces which may help you understand placed one or more subs up high. have fun, enjoy the music !!! And the journey !!! |
One more question. With the idea of swarming subs, what about long runs of single ended(RCA)cable? Is that going to be a problem with a 30' plus run? @mizmike I use a 6' RCA cable in my Swarm. Duke at Audio Kinesis suggested not going any longer than that unless running balanced.@mizike, what problems might you be anticipating? I Swarm differently than most around here as I don't use active subs and do not use the Dayton Audio amp that is part of the AudioKinesis offering. That being said I run 20' plus unbalanced RCA terminated cables to my bass amp and have no issues whatsoever. |