Hello Hans/hleeid,
Congratulations and welcome to the 4-sub DBA club! The AK Swarm and 4-sub DBA concept works so incredibly well that it almost seems like magic, especially how it works in virtually any room and with any pair of main speakers. Of course it’s actually the opposite of magic, since the whole concept is based on physics, scientifically proven acoustic principles and has been consistently empirically validated. Anecdotally, I had never heard of an instance of the 4-sub Swarm or custom DBA system not working in a room or system until the owner of Audio Kinesis, Duke Lejeune, stated he had encountered a couple of rooms in which the system initially did not work successfully.. But he stated he was able to make both of these systems function properly after specific minor adjustments.
Your room was a good test of the concept since your room had insufficient floor space to accommodate the 4 relatively small Swarm subs. But Duke was even able to make the concept work in your floor space challenged room by suggesting you raise 3 of the 4 subs well above the floor,
Kudos to Duke for knowing of and suggesting such a unique and effective solution. And kudos to you, Hans, for having the good sense to research the concept and having the curiosity as well as the spirit of adventure to give it a try. Your reactions to how amazingly well this concept works reminds me of my own reactions when I first experienced the bass results and seamless integration with my main speakers in my room over 5 years ago; a combination of disbelief, relief, excitement and audio bliss. Very satisfying and I can attest that these feelings are enduring.
As to the questions concerning bass traps and room treatments, I initially had none in my room and just recently installed Stacked GiK bass traps (called TriTraps) in all 4 corners as well as a balance of GIK absorption and diffusion panels scattered about my room. With the added room treatments and bass traps, my perceptions are that the bass sounds equally as excellent but the midrange, treble and imaging sounding more detailed while at the same time sounding more relaxed, realistic and natural. My opinion is that the 4-sub DBA concept’s bass response will not be negatively affected by the use of bass traps or room treatments in my room, ymmv.
Congrats and enjoy,
Tim |
Hello Ozzy,
I’m still waiting for your invite to movie night, sir!
You know what they say about subs; ....4 subs sound and perform about twice as well as 2 subs and 8 subs are, as they say, good grounds for divorce. You’ve created the best, and likely most expensive, implementation of the DBA concept that I’m yet aware of.
Congrats,
Tim |
Hello mizike,
I would read your Rhythmik F12 manual to see if they have a method to connect multiple F12 subs together. The better sub companies, like Rhythmik, already understand the benefits of multiple subs in a room and have incorporated methods to hook up a single sub and then piggy-back more of their subs off of the first sub, usually at least up to 4 subs total. The first sub’s settings, for volume, crossover frequency and phase, typically control all attached subs. The left and right channel bass are usually summed to mono in the first sub and all subs are thus outputting mono bass as a group. This is optimum for best results but, don’t worry, you’ll perceive the bass in stereo once your main speakers are hooked up.
Tim
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Hello lemonhaze,
You’re correct, that silver unit atop the Oppo is a Lumin D2 dac/streamer. The black box to the right of the Oppo is a 20 TB Synology hard drive storage unit I use with it along with an IPad, running the Lumin app as the GUI and remote.
When I walked into a local dealer, I was originally intending to buy a Bluenote but, after demoing both on a Levinson 5805 integrated and Magico A3 speakers, I definitely thought the Lumin’s GUI and sound quality were better. The Lumin’s a bit more money but l thought it was worth it. it’s been a really good addition to my system.
Later,
Tim
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Hello Hans/hleeid,
I’m really glad you, with Duke’s assistance, were able to implement the AK Swarm system in your small room and that you’re enjoying its performance so much. I was so stunned by the excellent bass produced in my room when I Initially installed my 4-sub DBA system that I felt a responsibility to spread the word about how well this concept actually works in practice.
I’ve always found it difficult, however, to accurately describe how amazingly well the DBA concept actually works without sounding like I’m exaggerating, a shill with a hidden agenda or a fan boy who just polished off the entire contents of the DBA Kool-aid punchbowl. I agree with you that just a single DBA demo would be sufficient fo convince most individuals of its remarkable effectiveness. The reality is that it does sound too good to be true, no pun intended.
I believe the biggest obstacle to more widespread use of the 4-sub DBA concept is that there seems to be very few audio shops that offer demos of it. In my experience, I’ve never heard, or heard of, a single demo and we both know it just takes a brief demo to be convinced. The only other method of experiencing the DBA is by learning of it and then taking the initiative, and having the good sense, to try one out in your own room and system. Apparently, neither of these methods being very common explains the lack of usage and enjoyment.
I’m also glad you tried out the different configurations I suggested. I only have experience using 1-4 subs on the floor in my room. I’ve learned that placing subs in corners provides more bass but that keeping them a couple feet away from corners provides the highest quality bass without sacrificing too much bass quantity, power and dynamic impact.
However, I have no experience positioning subs on the vertical plane. So, the positioning experiments I suggested were just based on my limited knowledge, experience locating subs on the floor and reasoning. I’m glad you took the time to try them out and found some further improvements. Very interesting.
Thanx,
Tim
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Hello lemonhaze,
You’re probably right. But the DBA is so good,imho, one audition on music or HT would likely convince most to buy. I know there’s a lot of reluctance to using subs in one’s system for some silly reason, but I believe most on this site would want one if they ever demoed one. But it’s very hard to Find a shop that offers them.I think a lot of members may never know what they’re missing.
Later,
Tim
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mac742:”Just in case anyone wants a good deal on the part-express (Dayton) SA-1000 power amp that Audiokinesis supplies with the Swarm is on sale for $374 bucks - the sale ends on April 30, so jump if ya want one at parts-express.com. Regular price is $549.”
The Dayton SA-1000 amp control unit was also included with my Audio Kinesis Debra 4-sub DBA System. I think this amp is a good performer whether you’re using an AK Swarm/Debra 4-sub DBA system or creating your own custom DBA using 4 spassive subs of your choice.
The SA-1000 has plenty of power at 1,000 watts, has the required 3 controls for volume, crossover frequency and continuously variable phase and it is a class AB amp rather than a class D amp which I believe reproduces bass more realistically and naturally.
I’ve never read other members discussing the differences they perceive between subs powered by class AB vs class D amps but, based on my experiences, I do notice differences. Prior to purchasing my AK Debra 4-sub DBA, I tried using numerous pairs of good quality self-amplified subs all powered by class D plate amps In my room and system. Right away I noticed that 2 subs performed and sounded much better than a single sub and integrated more seamlessly with my fast and very detailed Magnepan Main speakers. The bass was very powerful, dynamic, detailed, smooth, fast ad very taut and tight. Overall, I enjoyed it very much.
With the installation of the AK Debra 4-sub DBA, all the bass quality improvements I noticed with the use of 2 self-class D amplified subs were even further enhanced with the exception that most of the bass tautness and tightness was gone. Initially I missed this bass tautness and tightness but, the more I listened to the 4-sub DBA, the more I realized that the class D amplified subs were adding this quality to the bass. After listening to several music tracks of different genres, I determined that the Dayton SA-1000 powered subs sounded more natural to me, especially when I focused on bass note decays. The decays through the class D amps sound truncated in comparison to the naturally diminishing decays through the Dayton SA-1000 class AB amp. My theory is that the differences can be explained by the different Damping Factors of class AB amps, typically in the 100-400 range, and class D amps, typically well over 600 and often over 1000. The higher an amplifier’s damping factor, the greater control it has over starting and stopping a woofer’s movement.
Tim
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“Tim, the Mini DSP looks interesting, everything I see shows coming off an AVR LFE out. I use a two channel pre amp. My system is for two channel music only. Do you own this product for further questions on use?“
mizike and luisma31,
No, I don’t use a miniDSP or a iTube2, I just connect my preamp’s stereo left/right outputs and Blu-ray player’s mono LFE output to the Dayton sub amp/control unit which enables auto switching between the 4-sub DBA for music or HT. I run all 4 of my subs in mono because there’s no such thing as stereo imaging with deep bass below 80 Hz. Plus there’s virtually no recorded music with discrete bass channels below 100 Hz, anyways. Duke of Audio Kinesis also stated that some Swarm users use 2 Dayton amps and enjoy the effects of running a pair of subs on the right side of the room 90 degrees out of phase from the other pair on the left side of the room. I forgot what the effect is but I don’t bother with this either.
Tim
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Hello mizike,
RCA cables are only utilized to connect line-level outputs from other components to the Swarm’s Dayton SA1000 sub amp’s line-level Left/Right and LEF inputs. Single lines of speaker wire are utilized to connect all four subs to the Dayton sub amp’s two sets (A and B) of pos./neg. speaker-level output terminals in a series/parallel configuration.
Series/parallel configuration consists of a single speaker wire from the sub amp’s A pos. output terminal to sub#1’s pos input terminal, a single speaker wire from the sub amp’s A neg. output terminal to sub#2’s neg. input terminal and a third single speaker wire from sub#2’s pos, input terminal to sub#1’s neg. input terminal to complete the series/parallel circuit for subs #1 and #2. Subs #3 and #4 are also connected in series/parallel configuration to the sub amp’s B pos.and neg. output terminals in the same manner. Any signal loss caused by long speaker wire runs are compensated for through increasing the Dayton sub amp’s volume/level control. Series/parallel hookup also allows the Dayton amp to be under an overall single 4 ohm load, even though each of the individual 10” subs are rated at 4 ohms, and therefore the amp is able to output a total of 1,000 watts to power them. The overall result in my system and room is mono bass from 4 relatively small subs at 12”x14.5”x28” and 40 pounds, that Is sufficiently fast, smooth and detailed to blend seamlessly with my very fast, smooth and detailed Magnepan 3.7i main speakers. At the same time, the total bass output is capable of being as deep, powerful and dynamic as the source material calls for, down to 20 Hz +/- 3 db and at an output SPL of up to 115 db.
The 4-sub DBA concept has proven to be an excellent complement to my main speakers, since it provides the high quality, powerful and dynamic bass below about 35 Hz that my main speakers, having a rated bass extension of 35 Hz, are not capable of providing. I also realize that my main speakers having a bass extension of only 35 Hz is actually a blessing in disguise. This is because I’m certain that having 4 independently positioned subs in a distributed bass array in my room results in superior bass quality performance than 2 bass transducers, being restricted to being positioned in the same relative room position and panel as my main speakers’ other transducers, would be capable of producing, even if they were planar-dynamic dipole panels with bass extension down to 20 Hz +/- 3 db and capable of doing so at a 115 db SPL
Tim
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Hello benzman,
I'm actually an Audi man, but regardless, I wholeheartedly welcome you to the DBA club! Enjoy.
Hello jtcf,
Thanks for the shout out but I've always felt I had no choice but to spread the word on the DBA, to my fellow A/V enthusiasts and music lovers, ever since I first experienced how incredibly well it actually performs.
Tim
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Yes, the Dayton is not operating correctly if there's a thump, buzz or hum. With my AK Debra, I found the overall bass sounded boosted if any of the subs were positioned within about 2 feet of a corner. It won't harm anything even if you put a sub in each corner. I just prefer my bass powerful, dynamic, smooth, fast, accurate, detailed and natural without overemphasis.
I tried wiring 1 of the subs in reverse polarity as the procedures suggest, one at a time, but without noticing a positive effect. I run all of mine in-phase and ported. My goal was to set the level and crossover frequency both as low as possible with the bass still sounding powerful, smooth, detailed and natural to me. My main speakers only have a rated bass extension of 35 Hz so I run them full range with the Dayton's level set at about 11:00 (slightly below half volume) and the crossover set at 40 Hz.
This results in the deep bass being perceived as seamlessly blended or integrated with my main speakers but the bass is still very powerful, dynamic, natural that can even be a bit startling on music and HT when the source content dictates for sudden powerful bass reproduction.
Welcome to the DBA club, dnicol, have you paid your yearly dues yet?
Best wishes,
Tim
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Hello all,
You all know my excellent experiences with the Swarm DBA by now. I had spent an even $1 million on my system at the time but wasn’t quite satisfied with the bass performance. So, I splurged another $3K on the Swarm and suddenly my system actually sounded like a million bucks, plus at least about another $3K and tax.
I think we could describe how well it performs until we’re all blue in the face and few would believe us, it’s too good to be true. But I know almost anyone would be completely convinced how incredibly well it performs by even just a brief audition. One listen is probably worth all our words of praise combined.
Later,
Tim
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dnicol: "
@noble100 I see you're running a 326S, (380S here) are you splitting an unbalanced out for the SA1000? I'm also going to try setting xover point lower as well. I do like the phase straight up at 90 though." Hello dnicol, The 326S has l+r unblanced outputs and I'm using those to connect to the SA1000. BTW, I'm thoroughly impressed with all the ML preamps I've heard thus far: 326S, 380S, 526 and No. 32. Tim |
