Surprised

 Kosst ,,,,,I'm on the same page as Kosst is

Must be a Canadian  hifi
Listener.    

@d2girls - Three reasons:  Money, money, and money.

I'm a big fan of adding subwoofers for music listening.  Unless you have a big space and a big budget most unpowered towers can't manage more than the mid-30hz region before rolling off hard, and even then you're using almost all of your amp's power to handle the bass.  

Using stand-mounts (or even towers) that are bass managed with a subwoofer or two eases the load on your amplifier and gives you much deeper and stronger bass than you'd get with any passive tower.    

I'm a fan of using electronic bass management vs the passive high-level cable hookup that REL and Vandersteen use.  Unfortunately it's not something found in most 2-channel processors or integrateds, but at least there are some nice options now, and most allow you to apply some room correction DSP to the lower frequencies (and the upper ones if you wish) to smooth out peaks so there's no boominess.  The better systems, like Anthem's ARC will also pick the best crossover point and slope automatically so that you can get a seamless blend between your subwoofers and your mains. 

Over the years, I’ve enjoyed some very decent speakers, including Quad ESL 63s, Vandi 2cis, Geshhmans, ADS, PSB and others. One of my favorite small speakers (for small spaces) was a set of Focal. 2 way mini monitors, with external x-overs. Very sweet indeed and beautiful to boot. Even without a sub, they sounded very full, detailed and musical. I can only imagine how nice they would have sounded, if I’d had my ADS sub to mate with them back then...Jim

My solution is a two channel / four channel setup (center bridged) using Thiel 3.5 equalized speakers.  The four channels virtually eliminate room modes in the three rooms I've used this setup in, and the bass does truly extend down to 20Hz.  Poof!!  There go the subwoofers and integration issues.

@wspohn - Well, sure, you basically turned the 4's into a full-range tower with powered woofers.  That works as well, even though the argument can be made that being able to position the subs and the mains independently has some advantages.  To go that route, there are now affordable options, such as Golden Ear Tritons, some Legacy models, and others.  But here's another consideration.  I had my 2Wqs before I got the speakers I have now.  I loved the 2Wqs; my old speakers, not so much.  I was able to upgrade my mains to something I like much better, while keeping the bass I love.  Try that with a full range tower!

I paid 200 bucks each for my 2 RELs.

Good bass is possible at acceptable cost if you look to heritage speakers.

I still use some late 1980s Vandersteen 4As in one of my rooms. They were built in small numbers at much higher price in between filling all the orders for the 2Cs and they were overly complicated - basically a separate push-pull subwoofer in a single cabinet, driven by a separate amplifier and, to get best sound, a Vandersteen made active crossover.  I have two bass amps, two amps for mid and highs, triwired, with separate crossover.  But the pay off was that they sound very good indeed, probably better than anything up to the Vandersteen 5, they were 3Db down at 24 Hz, and they can be found (if you look awhile) for under $2K - sometimes well under. 

There are a number of other classic speakers that were true full range including many under that price point - I'm sure people could recommend any number of them, Maggies, Infinity etc.

In other words, a full range set of speakers for less than you paid for one of your RELs.....

@wspohn - Good point.  However, it depends on what you're after.  My mains go down to the mid-30 Hz range on their own.  The bass is clean, extended, and not at all boomy.  Nevertheless, for a bass freak like me, they just cannot pressurize a room the way my subs can.  Maybe if I had more than 150 watts per side feeding them they would put out a bit more bass, but my two Vandy 2Wqs put out a total of 600 watts RMS to six 8" woofers in pretty solid cabs.  No full-range speaker that I could ever afford will pressurize my room the way these subs do, and without calling attention to themselves at all.  I guess my point is this:  If you can't afford really good full range speakers, a well integrated subwoofer (or, better, pair of subs) is an economical short-cut to full range sound.

Integration is always at least a possible issue with subs. Many are very flexible and easy to integrate like the REL, Vandersteen, and Hsu, but many are not.

Most subs aren't for really low bass, they are for bass from about 60 Hz and down and I've seen both really good pairing and really horrid sounding pairings.

The question of why people don't go this way more often is probably that when you buy a full range speaker, the manufacturer has already done all the integration work for you and you can bet it will be optimal.  OTOH, if you are building a  system on a budget, separates offer stepwise progress even if it wouldn't have cost more to just buy the full range speaker in the first place.

I listened to a pair of Spica TC-50s with Vandersteen 2Ws and it was pretty impressive, so very good sound is possible either way..

oldschool1nice system! Anthem, Paradigm and REL are sonic matches and work very well together. Happy Listening!

Sorry you missed the humor in my post Clearthink (I bet you're a LOT of fun at  parties), but I still wonder if anyone moves a sub a little from time to time. I don't need any suggestions regarding my "fiddling" with my system as I've had decades as a professional working musician and currently overpaid live concert sound technician to learn what is fiddle worthy. 

I had no trouble integrating my Vandersteen 2Wq subs (each with the M5-HP crossover) with my Ohm Walsh 2000s. No, these are not stand-mounts, but still, it could not have been easier. I plunked the subs in the corners, where they are designed to go, adjusted the output level and Q control, a process that took just a few minutes, and - bam! - deep, tight, powerful, and completely integrated bass that sounds like it is wholly a part of the music, not eminnating from the two boxes in the corners. I did mass-load each sub as recommended by Vandersteen, but it was really easy. I don’t have the time or the patience to fiddle too much with my system. I want to spend my precious and rare free time listeing to music.

wolf_garcia"I wonder if anybody else uses my now famous (or more likely mostly utterly unknown and scoffed at) technique of moving my larger sub away from the corner toward my earballs from time to time"

You will hear a lot better if you get those balls out of your ears and if you do that simple task you will not have to spend so much time fiddling with your Music Reproduction System to get better sound.

Sub BASS...like the fish (well...maybe not), although sub "woofer" is still my preferred moniker for such things. If it’s sub bass, well...it’s simply not going to be audible, unless it’s referring to actual sub strata bass like a subway train under a concert hall or an earthquake...still...I wonder if anybody else uses my now famous (or more likely mostly utterly unknown and scoffed at) technique of moving my larger sub away from the corner toward my earballs from time to time as an "analog" tuning technique. I should get a set of tracks and a remote for that...put the sub on a "roomba" maybe...

prof,

I must rebut to some of your post and this will apply to all of "us". First, we all have different speakers, room conditions, subwoofers, and ideas of what information is supposed to sound like.

Those who use a subwoofer OTHER than a REL, you basically have one way to connect it to your pre amp, through LFE. There are other methods however, that is the most common connection scheme. The REL connects not only to LFE but also high level. High level for those unfamiliar is straight to the amplifiers binding post where your speakers are connected. This is something unique to REL. It allows the same signal signature to reach the sub as the speakers. The LFE, well that's a no brainer. Essentially setting up a REL is a two stage process. Each connection scheme is set up individually without the other connected. Imagine having two subwoofers in one.

Next, subwoofer placement when it's a compliment to an individual speaker like mine is set up, is adjacent to the speaker. NOT in the corner of the room. If you have ONE subwoofer and looking to take advantage of room gain, then you do the sub crawl or use elaborate set-up methods. I'm not even gonna go into how a single sub is set up in a room as it is an art and you still end up "hearing" where the sub is. I don't care how good your sub is. There will be places in the room that will be energized more than others. That is why multiple subs are ideal.

My subs for this purpose are set up in stereo. My left main has it's own dedicated sub and so does the right. Essentially my "bookshelf" speakers, which were very pricey compared to what you're gonna get from most manufacturers and very "high-end", are very accurate and sound incredible. If you haven't auditioned a Paradigm Signature Series speaker, go hear for yourself before grouping them into a category of "budget" solutions. When you read a specification like the Signature S2, just knowing it can perform to ±2dB from 52 Hz - 45 kHz isn't enough. It's how accurate and tonal quality. And again, we all have different ears, right? With all that said, marrying a sub to each main speaker I essentially have the same as a floor stander with a HUGE benefit, a floor stander has a small driver usually 6-8 inches which can't possibly reach below 20 Hz as my 12" REL can and does. For those who prefer a floor stander, thats great. They're compact and take up little real estate on your listening floor. Having a stereo bookshelf and stereo subs, more real estate taken up but the advantage of dynamic range, realism of reproduction, and overall room energizing is far superior to having one sub stuck in a corner. I don't care what anyone says, 30 Hz IS directional resulting in hearing exactly where that sub is located.

That's my humble thoughts of stereo subs. IMO, the ONLY way to go! For watching movies, I have a third REL R-528 in the rear of the room center of the wall. This sub is only active for LFE. When a movie is playing and the .1 channel (LFE) is active, my listening position is center of the triangle of subs. You can not detect where any of my subs are from any intended listening position in the room.

To finish the system, I have a REL T-9 connected high level only to my center channel which is a Paradigm CC-690. Sure I could connect my center channel sub LFE as well but it's not needed. Oh btw, the REL R-528 sports a 500 watts RMS Class D amplifier. Doesn't get any better!

For those wanting help tuning their REL, here is a tutorial I used. It's a great read and very helpful:
https://relsupport.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/categories/115000822488-How-To-Tune-My-REL

In closing, you probably have figured out I am a big fan of REL. That is because having a full set of them, I know their potential, understand their technology and how to set them up properly. They are unlike any other conventional sub out there. They are actually a "sub base" speaker than a subwoofer. I am not stating they are the best sub in the world. That is a matter of personal taste and why there are so many different manufacturers of subs. Although never heard the SVS, Rhythmik, or HSU, I understand they are outstanding products and for home theater, are great for the designed purpose. There are no subs out there more "musical" than the REL sub base speaker, hands down!

oldschool1,

Also it’s important to have the sub the same distance from your listening position assuring there is no phase shift. A common mistake is stuffing a sub in the corner and their mains are 2-3 feet forward of them. This creates a timing issue as the mains will reach your ears before the sub.

....Too much overlap and it sounds like mud. Not enough and there’s a disconnect. Trick is to find that sweet spot.

But I think all that speaks to one of kosst_amojan’s point:

First, it a more technically complicated approach.

It really IS a much more arduous and involved process to seamlessly integrate a subwoofer. I and many others know this from experience.
One of the claims often made about subwoofers is that it is easier to set up for excellent sound since you can place the satellite - mid frequencies upward - where it sounds best, and the bass drivers - sub - where they sound best. Whereas with a floor standing speaker you are stuck moving both around at the same time, making it "harder" to integrate in to the room.

But while that contains some truth, it's also misses some truth:  in one case you are finding the best spot for one speaker, in the other (subs) you have to find the best spot for TWO separate speaker systems. And finding the right spot for a sub is just as finicky as for placing a full range speaker anywhere.
As you say "trick is finding the right spot" for seamless integration.

I’ve placed a great many large floor standing speakers in my room and found beautifully integrated sound with little problem. But incorporating my new subwoofers has been a whole new ballgame and level of complexity. It’s not for nothing that many subwoofer fans say you’d better be using microphones, a computer, software etc to read and dial in subwoofers. Or you are doing the "subwoofer" crawl on your hands and knees hoping you find a spot your subwoofer can practically be put, and then adjusting phase, crossovers, etc.

Further, if you go with the idea that subs have to be near the mains, then you end up with TWO speaker systems having to be placed in the room near each other - a floor standing speaker, or stand mounted speaker, now with a big ol’ sub - or two subs...or more!.... right nearby. Aside from IMO being even more unsightly than a single elegant floor standing speaker, it essentially takes up even more floor space.

Can a sub be integrated really seamlessly to please the pickiest of audiophiles? Probably (though I’ve yet to hear it). And I’m hoping on that because I’ve bought subs and a crossover and I’m continuing to experiment.

But to really get the most benefit one essentially enters the realm of sort of becoming part of the speaker designing process - altering crossover frequencies, adding new drivers, etc. That’s not for the faint of heart and my ears tell me it’s often not nearly as successful as I’d like, or as I hear from any number of full range speakers where the designer has done all the work.

I've owned a REL Q150e (10" front firing 150 watt) for 7 or 8 years and eventually added a Q108II (8" downfiring 100 watts). Both were purchased used but in great shape for 200 buck each, and they still show up on Ebay or wherever for close to that price...highly recommended. Once you get the phase correct these things are amazing, easy to adjust the level (no DSP for me), and move around. They work well with small monitors (I have a friend who's way into tiny English 3/5a type speakers and he matches 'em with one small REL sub and it sounds glorious) or floorstanders, and I currently use these with Klipsch Heresy IIIs that have accurate bass to only around 58hz so the subs are necessary. Used RELs...a no brainer if there ever was one.

Well, I  own a DEQX Preamp and one of its features is a very sophisticated range of controls to intergrade the subs (JL F-113) very nicely.

ozzy

Many years ago had 7.1 system with a sub the sound was rubbish, Moved to 2 floorstanders with a sub to found out it’s extremely difficult to get the sub tuned correctly now my Proac floorstanders go down to 25 Hz and driven with the McIntosh really making the sub unnecessary.Bookshelfs in principle can’t produce full body sound as floorstanders neither low bottom end unless you you’re buying extremely expensive high end bookshelfs that obviously will reuquier expnensive powerful amplification,cables and stands.

@oldschool111,
The big difference between the floorstanders  and bookshelf is not 
only bass, Most of the bookshelf is 2 way LS,   and loosing nice
mids, is the shortcoming, The best 2 way speakers is 3 way speakers,
The tweeter and woofer are not design to get good mids, 
We design all my speakers based on wideband drivers and get 
excellent vocal reproduction , like live    

I had floorstanders in a room with about the same dimensions as your room, so 14' x 15' x 8.' My speakers go down to 30 Hz and driven with the right amplification, the bass was excellent. Then I moved my system into a large open space, and while I gained some detail, where's the beef?

I added subs, and I'm still running my floorstanders full range. I use my two preamp outs for the setup. The sub amps have all the controls necessary to set things up any way you want. It's all there now, plus a wide open presentation I never had before.
Kenny

kosst, with all due respect, you are far from correct. If you’re talking about inexpensive bookshelf speakers, their performance doesn’t justify the money agreed, however, spend good money and get quality products and a REL will integrate nicely. Most quality bookshelf speakers are two-way, good to somewhere around 50Hz give or take some. My Paradigm Signature S2’s are good to 52 (±2dB from 52 Hz - 45 kHz) as per manufacturers specs. Therefore I crossover my R-528 at about 60Hz.
Floor standers (towers) are only good to roughly 40 Hz. Not that much difference. Also it’s important to have the sub the same distance from your listening position assuring there is no phase shift. A common mistake is stuffing a sub in the corner and their mains are 2-3 feet forward of them. This creates a timing issue as the mains will reach your ears before the sub.
The REL has the ability to seamlessly integrate at pretty much any frequency necessary. Too much overlap and it sounds like mud. Not enough and there’s a disconnect. Trick is to find that sweet spot. Don’t forget, volume has a play in it as well. The beauty of REL is as it’s connected high level, they get the same signature as the main speakers. I highly recommend a left and right subwoofer to compliment the left and right mains. With a REL integrated with each main speaker, it will blow away most floor standers (towers) without a sub. Although Focal speakers are very nice, I have a set of Utopia’s in my truck and they are outstanding, it’s all a matter of taste. I’d be careful making direct global comparisons without hard data to back it up otherwise you’re just stating an opinion.
Btw, my room is 13' x 15' x 8", hardwood floors covered by a rug. a sofa 4" from the rear wall, a coffee table and the only room treatment is some sound deadening foam center between the mains.

Here's my system;
Paradigm (Signature S2- Front L&R): (CC-690- Center): (Studio 20- Surround L&R)
REL R-528 (FL & FR, RL & RR, 3 total) / REL T-9 (CC)
Anthem P5 & AVM 60 / Oppo BDP-103 - Blu Ray
Interconnects: Audioquest, King Cobra & Yukon
Speaker cable FL & FR: Transparent Audio / AC cords: Audioquest NRG-4 & WyWires Juice II

To each his won I guess. I've found my favorite subs are the ones turned all the way off.  I've tried many times to get a sub or subs to work and was constantly messing with it and always found I'd rather just have it off.  In a small room I'd rather just give up the bass and yes I think monitors sound great in some rooms.  I'd take a full range floor stander any day in a big room however.  

^+1

I prefer monitors with a sub. I’ve owned many floorstanders and many monitors. In my listening room ( 20x15 ) monitors always sound best!

I run a sub with floorstanders or monitors. I’ve found running a full range tower full range then crossing over the sub at around 50hz gives a very good blend. More seamless than a monitor and sub IMO. 

"I’m interested in hearing others thoughts on my scheme as opposed to floor standers with a single sub with appears most popular."

I know a lot of folks do get subs with their floorstander speakers but for me the main reason to go the floorstander route is to avoid the need for a subwoofer. It is also sometimes difficult to integrate main speakers with subwoofers  - standmounts in particular, so opting for floor standing speakers tends to give more seamless results.