Suggestions for phono preamp for LOMC's

I always thought the definition (of RFI) depends upon the source, not the frequency of the spurious tone, but I will of course yield to your superior knowledge. Thanks.

Do you equate the resonance frequency generated by the inductance of the cartridge being in parallel with the capacitance at the inputs with RFI?

@lewm Yes, since it is commonly at MHz frequencies. Hard to put it as anything else!

@dz13 Same experience here -- PS Audio Stellar and love the ease of use and the sound is phenomenal. Very happy with it.

Hagtech,

Thanks, l researched and very intrigued. 

I also use the PS Audio Stellar Phono Preamp. I don't have much experience with higher end phono preamps and I asked for advice on a thread in this forum. For me, it was the ease of use coupled with the good reviews that I saw. I was sick of having to open up the side or top of the unit and figure out which tiny lever to push for the LOMCs that I use. The PS phono preamp has a remote for the settings and you can make changes on the fly to figure out what works best. I've tried 2 different LOMC and I am very happy with the results. 

Don't forget to consider my TRUMPET MC.

https://positive-feedback.com/reviews/hardware-reviews/hagerman-audio-labs-trumpet-mc-phono-stage/

Im using an Ayre preamp with my Ortofon Winfield.....works fine

Ralph, Do you equate the resonance frequency generated by the inductance of the cartridge being in parallel with the capacitance at the inputs with RFI? I never thought of it that way, as I always thought of RFI as noise that comes from an external source either by radiation through air or by injection into the circuit wiring. The capacity of the phono circuit to deal with the high frequency resonance generated in the cartridge/phono system is identical to its capacity to deal with RFI, I guess.

@bobheinatz 

Here's a tip for buyers of phono sections that can work with LOMC cartridges.

If it has provisions for a loading resistor for the cartridge, its a pretty good bet the designer didn't think thru the implications of an inductive source (the cartridge) being in parallel with the capacitance of the tonearm cable.

FWIW, the understanding of this is taught in the first week of any electronics class.

The two (inductance and capacitance) together form an electrical resonance, usually at a fairly high frequency which could be 1-5 MHz. It can also be as much as 30dB higher output than the cartridge output itself. If the phono section wasn't designed to handle this energy with grace, it won't sound right; hence the 'cartridge loading' resistor. The RFI (since that is what this resonance is) can intermodulate with the input signal, causing harshness and brightness. The loading resistor detunes the resonance and so knocks out the RFI, but it also causes the cantilever to be stiffer, since the extra work to drive that low resistance load of the 'cartridge loading resistor' might be over 2 orders magnitude higher. 

I've found that if the phono section design took this phenomena into account, one side benefit is less ticks and pops which can be otherwise caused by the input of the phono section overloading from the RFI. Its nice to play entire LP sides without a tick or pop!

Pappas3278,

Thanks for the recommendation!  The Phono 70 is a very interesting phono stage.

I’m also going to highly recommend the Paradoxpulse Phono 70.

My first higher-end phono stage was the Manley Chinook. Sold it after realizing my preamp’s built-in MC phono section was superior (McIntosh C52).

Then recently acquired the Phono 70 and now that has far surpassed the C52 phono section. I didn’t think it was going to but I thought I could find out for myself with their 30 day trial period.

I’ve been so impressed that I have since ordered the Signature version.

PS Audio Stellar Phono

Paradox Phono 70 - maybe Signature upgrade

I had a bunch of phono preamps. I last had a Modwright 9.0X good preamp but it cannot compete with the one I have now.

My system is pretty good right now. I have the VPI Classic 1 turntable with a Unami Blue Cart. Amplification is a Plinius SA102A that has been "upgraded by Ralph Abramo, Plinius Audio Sales and Repair, (949) 357-3858 and the US distributor. Pre Amp is a AR REf 3. Speakers are Canton Ref 3K.

Phono Preamp is DSA Phono One (used). Now for about $3000 you can get a 10 year old phono preamp designed and built by Doug Hurburt of DSA. The bad thing is at that age they might be on the cusp of needing some TLC. The great thing is that Doug will go through it with a fine tooth comb and make it new again for very reasonable money. So, for short money, less than $4000 you can has a world class $12,000 phono preamp that will work with ANY cartridge. And the sound is wonderful. Find some reviews on the internet. I am a very happy guy.

Very happy with my Icon Audio ps 3 mk II. Works really well with my cartridge at 2.5mV. 

There is a great discussion of them here.

It's beautiful, powerful, built in step up transformer. 

@theflattire Modwright’s older SWP 9.0 and 9,0 SE did not use a SUT. The models you cite are current production models. As a 2008 review in Positive Feedback points out, no transformers are used in the audio circuit. The gain on the MC setting is 68 db. You can run 0.5 mV cartridges effectively on the MM setting. I’ve done it. Here’s a link to the review article. 

https://positive-feedback.com/Issue36/modwright_9.htm

With $2.5K for a purchase of a Phononstage, it can be said a Prudent investigation of the Market Place could discover a Phon' not too many years old, that could have been a Phon' with a $7Kish price tag when released to the Market Place.

I have seen phon's costing over $10K when first Marketed, where the selling price is for approx' $3K +/- . That as a Phon' will not be classed as a Old Design by any means, just an obsolete model from the Manufacturer, where the latest model might have a few differences to the Topology and Chassis Design.  

Modwright PH9.0 uses Lundahl 9226 SUT for the MC side, as does the PH150.

@lewm No SUT. Just the tubes, including a rectifier tube. You can check the Modwright web site for info about the models currently in production and get a sense of the design approach taken. 

But does the Modwright use a built in SUT in order to achieve adequate gain for an LOMC, or not?

@lewm You are correct. When I used the term “specifically designed for moving coil cartridges” it is because the Modwright phono stages have no problems with LOMC cartridges with outputs of 0.2 and 0.3 mV, not just the 0.5 mV cartridges. Plenty of gain and very low noise levels. 

"I have about $10k invested in my table/arm"

That suggests you might use a cart around $5K or so?

$2500 retail may not show such a cart in it's best light?

That amount + a few more bucks in a USED $5k +retail unit could do so.

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lisbac85-zesto-audio-andros-ps1-phonostage-excellent-condition-phono

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lisbbf1d-primaluna-evo-100-tube-phono-preamplifier-phono

I use the PL. Competitive with the any tube/SS in the $5K+ range

Check out the Parasound Halo JC3+ 
I think its performance is very good for the money spent and has tremendous build quality.

Tavish Adagio is nice, but there's a (long) wait list.  Compared favorably with my Modwright PH9.0 and I heard the tube rectifier upgrade takes it to the next level.

Zesto all day long.

I am using the Sun Valley Phono EQ which is a kit (though you can pay to have them assembled) with a Lundahl SUT and it sounds absolutely incredible. I also have a Hagerman Trumpet (with an upgraded power supply), Bottlehead Eros and a Pete Millett LR Phono stage I built and the Sun Valley blows them all away. 

Another Allnic recommendation here. Their new step up transformer uses silver windings, which is an audible enhancement.

Not enough gain is often a problem with the lowest output of LOMCs, like less than 0.3mV @ 5cm/sec.  However, I cannot recall ever having a problem with too much gain, if we restrict the discussion to LOMC cartridges and MC inputs. And what most forget is to add in any gain from an active linestage.

Great suggestions from everyone.   I am researching all options listed here.  Thank you very much.  Keeping them coming. 

@lewm 

Good question.  The Phono 70 has 70 db of gain and it is my understanding that it is not a good match for anything >.5mV output.  The designer of the unit stated it was specifically designed for LOMCs, primarily in the .2 mV to .5 mV range.

With my prior phono preamp I had to crank the volume up fairly high to achieve a reasonable volume level with my .2mV Ortofon cartridge.  Not so much anymore.

@ bobheinatz

If I were in the market for a Phono-Pre, I would ask for advice, read reviews and make a SHORT LIST OF UNITS TO DEMO.

Because the transducer (cartridge) feeds the phono-pre, it may even more important to  to demo phono-preamps than line-stages and amps (yes, these are also demo-ing, if possible).

That being said, I am very happy with my Zesto Andros, which I have had for many years (I have no affiliation).  In fact, I may upgrade to a newer Andros version in 2025. 

You should be able to find a good, used Andros in your stated budget.  Add $150 for four new tubes, and you should be satisfied for many years to come.

Best of luck with the search.

When one uses the phrase,” specifically designed for MC cartridges”, what does that mean? I assume it means that the phono stage has gain sufficient to allow the use of a low output moving coil cartridge without the need for a step up transformer (at least 60 db gain). This is in contrast to phono stages that have a built-in step up transformer for LOMCs, driving a moving magnet (low) gain stage (typically 40-50 db). Is that correct?

A Modwright SWP 9.0 SE, an older discontinued model, is specifically designed for LOMC cartridges and is an excellent American made tube unit. Dan Wright, the founder and owner, is accessible and helpful. Used units fit within your budget. You can also look for used or demo units of the newer models, but they will likely exceed your budget. Highly detailed, quiet without an excessively “tubey” sound. Great frequency extension at both top and bottom and natural instrument timbres. The Music Room is a dealer and occasionally has used units as owners move up to more costly models. 

@lubachl  That's true of the Sutherland TZ Vibe.  

I second the suggestion for a Chinook. I recommend keeping an eye out on all the "sites" for one that has a set of upgrade opamps in it. 

My recommendation is to get a phono preamp designed specifically for LOMCs. Over the years I have pretty much limited my phono cartridges to the low output variety because they seem to sound best in my system.  The phono preamp I use is the Paradox Phono 70 Signature.  This unit replaced one in my system that cost $6K and bested it by no small margin.  Good luck in your search.

Gold Note

McIntosh MP100 Phono Preamp offers Moving Coil and Moving Magnet adjustable loading (6 settings each); balanced and unbalanced analog outputs; optical, coax and USB digital outputs; and a Mono switch for playing mono records to decrease noise and play the signal correctly.

~$1,700 or so new: https://www.mcintoshlabs.com/products/preamplifiers/MP100

I suggest you look at the Lounge Audio LCR MKIII Gold with their Silver step-up amp for MC cartridges.  That combo would be a bit under $1500.  I have the MKIII Gold with a MM cartridge, and the SQ is simply stunning, especially when I spin one of my 1980s Sheffield LPs or one of my 45 rpm LPs from that time.  Hand made right here in the USA, in the Los Angeles area.

I’ve used the Manley Chinook with my Sumiko Blackbird Lo with great results. It has very dark background and very adjustable. I have the same tubes it came with when I purchased it new in 2018 and no desire to change them out, still sounds really nice. 

I use a PS Audio Stellar phone pre with an Ortofon Quintet Black cartridge on a Technics SL-1200G TT.  I’m quite happy with that combination.  I may upgrade to a better cartridge, but I have no intention of changing my phono pre or TT.

PS Audio has a very good 30 day return policy. The Music Room has used ones for $1,899.  

Nothing wrong with a gold note consideration. Can always upgrade it with separate PS. Lots of options also on the fly. 

Thanks for the replies.   Some get ideas.  Keep them coming!

Check out he recent thread on SUTs. There you will find mention of good high gain phono stages that are compatible with LOMC cartridges. Also I suggest you read up on “gain”, the meaning of db, etc, so you can calculate how much gain is enough for a given cartridge. That quantity also depends upon linestage gain, amplifier input sensitivity, and speaker efficiency. 
 

The TZ Vibe is a current driven device. Such devices work best with LOMC cartridges that also have a very low internal resistance, usually less than 10 ohms. So before you purchase a current driven phono (there are others besides the Vibe) be sure you want to limit yourself to compatible LOMC cartridges.

Phono stage might be more important than TT/arm.

If I had $10k in TT/Arm I would be looking at something like an Allnic H5500  or Sutherland Duo minimum.

I would consider a $2500 phono stage a bottleneck.

I'm using a Sutherland TZ Vibe with a Hana ML moving coil cartridge.  I think it sounds excellent and it's well under your budget.