Subwoofer Advice

Hi I have a pair of Martin Logan ESL 11A speakers and use them with 2x Rel 510 subs sited along side the ESLs. This arrangement works really well in my medium sized room.

@mijostyn my first "Steep" learning curve is not to just jump into using DSP, but to first understand these graphs (Hz/dB & assorted terms/jargon), what they mean and how to apply/adjust them accordingly. Hopefully I'll live long enough to do so!

So, you like it better now? I have a new preamp processor and I have been using DSP since 1996. It still took me some god awful number of trials to get things working reasonably well. Part of the problem is I have a strange setup. Anyway, The manual is not always right because there is no standard system/room. It is a steep learning curve and trial and error are frequently the only way forward. 

I got my ML PBK working and it automatically adjusted something. I started a new thread call Subwoofer Advice 2 to generate some new comment on the results.

Hopefully the PDF link works and you all can read it OK - u2 @mijostyn 

@helomech Thanks, the Elacs look interesting as well. They list at $3,800 though. Any tips on which dealers might let these go for $2K?

https://altitudoaudio.ca/products/varro-ds1000-gb-10-dual-reference-powered-subwoofer

In the meantime I did email Rythmik and I'm waiting to hear back.

I checked out the Rythmik L12s and they look like great bank for the buck, but it seems, from what I’m hearing hear, is that I need balance forced subs which are double my budget. So, I guess I’ll be doing without whilst saving up for these. Thank you for the suggestion though!

I don’t have much experience with balanced/opposing woofer subs, but I have heard a number of full range speakers that employ the same principle (KEF for example). I can’t say I was particularly impressed with their bass, but that might have been due to a multitude of other factors. To my ears, the opposing woofer designs help to mitigate audible cabinet resonances, but don’t make the bass sound any tighter. At least that was the case with those full range speakers and the small KEF subs I’ve experienced. 

If you’re set on that design type, I would heavily consider the Elac Varro Dual Reference subs. They seem better built than the comparable KEF offerings. With a typical dealer discount they can probably be bought for $2K/each.

I was considering upgrading to the similarly priced REL S/510SX subs. But the Elac is an attractive proposition because it allows real-time adjustment with the built in app. That would make integration much easier I think.

@oliver_reid Thanks Oliver, they look good, but they are a tad big and $2400 ea (plus EGF @ BB)

Dynaudio make great subwoofers

their 18s duall 9.5 in model  is inexpensive 

@helomech I checked out the Rythmik L12s and they look like great bank for the buck, but it seems, from what I'm hearing hear, is that I need balance forced subs which are double my budget. So, I guess I'll be doing without whilst saving up for these. Thank you for the suggestion though!

For your budget, it would be hard to beat a pair of Rythmik L12s.

Those are what I currently use with my Borresen X3 floorstanders. The Borresens have the tightest, cleanest, most dynamic bass of any speaker I’ve owned among dozens, including panels, yet the Rythmiks still keep up pretty well. I don’t doubt there are better subs out there, but I doubt any of those can be had for under your budget.

The L12s have a braced cabinet that weighs in at 50lbs, a cast aluminum chassis driver, a linear power supply with massive transformer for the amp, and a solid aluminum backplate. Those are quality features you won’t find with similarly priced products from the likes of SVS. 
 

@saboros seems OK.

Is there any possibility that your speakers are wired out of phase?

It seems so odd that you didn’t have this issue with the Spires.

@drbond thank you for this. I will spend some time going over it. I just tried to hook up my PBK from Martin Logan and it’s not working some kind of connection, problems, etc., etc., etc. The joy of technology! :-(

@navyachts 

FWIW, here's a link to my experience with ML subwoofers:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/subwoofers-and-electrostatic-speakers

Thanx! Let me know how it works out.

@mijostyn OK, I will still try the PBK out on Saturday, if no improvement, it'll be the piggy bank next!

Thanks for all your help and I hope your rotator cuff is healing up well!

@navyachts I was led to believe the speakers had tone controls on them. This is wrong? If white is what you want then the KEFs are it. I have listened to them in a system with Harbeth P3s and they are excellent. The two 9" drivers are equivalent to one 12" driver which should match your MLs perfectly. I really like the ML balanced Force subs also, but in your instance I think they are overkill. 

@mijostyn I spoke with Martin Logan, 2 things:

1. The room correction software cannot be adjusted manually.

2. This is their recommendation for a sub for the 11A's: http://MartinLogan Abyss 10 Subwoofer | Audio Advice It is not a balance forced sub-woofer though (also not available in white!)

@mijostyn OK, I found my Martin Logan PBK (Perfect Base Kit)!

You mentioned this:

Run the program then turn the midbass down just a little and the bass up as far as it will go. Then start decreasing the bass a little at a time until things sound right to you.

As I recall there is an Automatic and Pro option for the PBK program. I don’t think the Auto program allows for any manual adjustments. Not sure about the Pro. I guess I’ll just try running and see.

You also mentioned this:

If you do a lot of listening from one listening position just keep the microphone at the listening position for all measurements. If you tend to listen more as background music then use the 5 locations as per instructions.

ML say this, but I think I’ll stick with your advice.

IMPORTANT! Even if your room has less than five listening positions, to ensure optimal sound, measurements must be taken from five different positions. Each position should be at least 2 feet (61 cm) apart. Focus on positions around listening locations.

@tony1954 

Thanks Tony. I am going to try my ML PBK room correction first and maybe (hopefully) it might cure the problem. It will certainly save me a bunch of money if it does!

Just my 2 cents, but placing the subs next to the Martin Logan mains may not solve your bass issues. If the lack of bass is caused by where the mains are positioned within the room, then adding subs may do little or nothing to help.

@mijostyn: "and myself as options and I am not building any more"

DARN!

@navyachts There is not a single driver subwoofer that can match a balanced force subwoofer for accuracy. That leaves only KEF, Magico, Martin Logan and myself as options and I am not building any more. See building resonance free subwoofer thread below.

@navyachts I will have a look at Steve Huff’s, I just knew the other guy had reviewed the Kefs and SVS Micro’s. If Buchardt did something a little bigger, say a 12 or 13 size wise they would be great for my rear set up.

But if those 10’s are big enough for your room, placement seems to be very flexible

Not that I want to turn you away from a UK manufacturer like Kef - UK HiFi Development is part of my ’income’, though not on any product I’ve ever commented on here.

@1971gto455ho my favorite was the 65: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_FSicQWimU

Given your room size forget the RS-1b, they want more period ! Been there, built  bigger sold em. Moved up to IRS Beta’s…subs, not likely lol ! 
Cheers 

@audio_rd_uk that is so funny you mention the Sub10. I just watched Steve Huff's (HiFi Huff) review of it just an hour ago...LOL!

Another potential for your consideration.
Just seen a review by Nemo Propaganda on youtube of the Buchardt Sub10 where it was compared to both the Kef and the SVS 3000 Micro.  Different form factor to the KEF but has a good app and a level of built in correction for less than the Kef 62.  Might be worth a look.  I confirm @big_greg's, expectation that the SVS Apps are very good. If anything the Buchardt looks more sophisticated, are very usefully the microphone set up for the room correction is done by linking it to an iphone which it uses as a mic. The results of this are noted to be as good as connecting it to a dedicated room correction mic.  Seems to be $1400 each.  Less than the Kef, about $500 more than the SVS, but suggested to be better than the SVS and slightly better than the more expensive Kef. 

@big_greg ok, thanks!

the wireless option sounds great, do you think is a good way to go, is wireless going to be accurate match with the rest of the system? Hardwired, at least for most audio products, seem to be the preferred set-up.

In the past I had 2 or 3 of my subs connected by wireless. Ichandelier to hard wired, mostly because the transmitters I had at the time were a little fussy. I didn't notice any difference in sound quality. You don't have to connect them wireless, my thought was that might give you more placement options.  

The SVS subs I own don't have the app control feature, but I think it would be really helpful for set up. 

@navyachts I've been saving for HiFi gear all my life.

@mijostyn Thanks so much Mike! I will try this when I have some time this coming Saturday. I’ll post back here with the results.

In the meantime, I will start saving up for an additional pair of subs, lol.

@navyachts The ML Balanced Force speakers are great, but they are even larger and more expensive. I think the KEFs will do the job, fit in better and cost about 1/2 as much. Warning, one sub is never a good solution. You are better off without any.

If you do a lot of listening from one listening position just keep the microphone at the listening position for all measurements. If you tend to listen more as background music then use the 5 locations as per instructions. Now, you have level controls for bass and midbass. Run the program then turn the midbass down just a little and the bass up as far as it will go. Then start decreasing the bass a little at a time until things sound right to you. I am not sure if this will work, but give it a try. It costs you nothing. A thing to remember is a balanced sound at lower levels with have too much bass and treble when you turn it up. I recommend balancing the system at the loudest levels you listen. When you turn it down the bass and treble will seem a little low unless you have a loudness control. 

@docknow thanks for the insight, I'll check it out, for sure.

@navyachts

I have a single ML BalenceForce 210 in a substantially bigger room (20x24) than you do and it does the job with my ML CLXs. It might be nice to have a pair for stereo bass, like I had with my Entecs, but it eats up floor space I need.

The Ml BF subs have the advantage of being able to use a ML supplied crossover for your 13As. There are two, one if you want to run the 13As full range, and another if you want to roll them off in the bass. I run my CLXs full range. Then, with the PBK kit and Anthem software, you can create a custom BF output profile that can give you a much flatter in-room bass response. I can’t imagine using a sub that can’t do this. The before and after is night and day.

I don’t know much about their new subs, maybe they do all this for less money. I would call them and also look on the ML forum.

@OP Integrating subs with all-planar speakers might be a lot easier than with hybrids like the Martin Logans.

Alternatively: 

EDIT: I prefer stereo subs on the inside of your main loudspeakers.

@audio_rd_uk cool!

@navyachts "you have 5 subs in your room, with another two on their way?"

I have 5 in the room but the two rears were down firing ported studio because I could not at the time get a front firing that would fit and was balanced.  But recently I have been discussing development of wave forming with Trinnov and front firing would be much better for this so the rear down firing will be replaced by the Norwegian Arendal 1723 subwoofers that are strictly speaking 'side firing' or double side firing.  Are 18.9" H x 13.2" D x 17.7" W.  With a 13.8" driver in a sealed enclosure.   Not as good 'value' as the SVS on $/watt / inch.  But I cannot find a better alternative as I have a 15" depth restriction.  And my son gets two subs for his AV room.

@joeyfed55 where do you place your Stillpoints?

@scott22 the SVSs seem to get a lot of praise here.

@mijostyn I just found this now online and it doesn’t look like you can make manual adjustments:

https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.martinlogan.com%2Fuploads%2Fdocuments%2Fmanuals%2FMartinLogan-ARC-Instructions.pdf&data=05%7C02%7C%7Cdae03a7a384e4aaebf6f08dcbc7d8472%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638592494490580679%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=Mz3xHSvbGNHJ2ygS%2BVZaTfWzYGsut1nijQq73xMEl9U%3D&reserved=0

And, I see the KEFs come in at around $2K each.

HI I have two SVS SB 1000 pros supporting my Canton 9k stand mounted and they were a piece of cake to set up,sound good and fill in seamlessly,and they are well within your budget,and have a good reputation. Having said that I  have no experience with other subs so there is that.

@navyachts I do not know that program. You have to jump in and read the manual. If you give me the exact product name I might be able to download the manual and give you a hand. You might want to look into those KEF subwoofers in the meanwhile.

I have 11As and use 2 REL S/812s more to improve the soundstage than for deeper bass. Sounds great. Also I have gotten better sound by moving them 30" from the wall behind them. Room treatment has helped enormously, especially the Stillpoints Aperture 2 panels. Hope you get there. Joe

@mijostyn +1 on the M1 DAC!

I am not sure if I can increase certain frequencies manually, nor am I sure about the program having EQ capabilities. Even if these features were available to me, I’m not sure if I could figure out how to do it. This kinda sounds a little to techie for me.

If we can advance the low end 10 dB at 20 Hz keep it flat to 60 Hz then curve it down to zero dB at 100 Hz you should be fine without added subwoofers as long as the drivers and amps can handle the volumes you like to listen at.

 

I am a happy Rythmic 15 in sealed sub user. Contact them and they will give you guidance on the best sub(s) for your application. They are very reasonably priced given their performance and flexibility.

@navyachts OK, I reviewed your pictures. Does the Anthem program have EQ capability? Can you increase certain frequencies manually? I assume you measure the speakers with a microphone? You should put sound absorption directly behind the speakers. It will improve your imaging and dampen sibilance. 

I also use ESLs and have been since 1978 along with subwoofers. If we can advance the low end 10 dB at 20 Hz keep it flat to 60 Hz then curve it down to zero dB at 100 Hz you should be fine without added subwoofers as long as the drivers and amps can handle the volumes you like to listen at. If not then we have to fill in with subwoofers from 80 Hz down. There are not many commercial subwoofers that are clean enough for your system. Martin logan has its balanced force subs, but you will need two subs. Do not even think about one. In your situation I think the best subs would be the KEF KC 92. They are also balanced force and you can get them in white which would fit your decor. They are quite small. I would put one right next to each ML, either side will do. I am hoping you will not need them. 

Bricasti Design just loaned me an M1 DAC to play with. Nice unit! I live about 30 minutes from the factory in Shirley, Mass.  

."@russ69 are you saying move on from the MLs and hook up with some Infinity RS1B towers or Tektons?"

No, the ML13A are fine speakers. My brother ran ML Requests for a long time. A stereo pair of towers does amazing things. You will get entirely new and deeper sound stage.

EDIT: I prefer stereo subs on the inside of your main loudspeakers.