Streamers with best apps?

I have had 4 Lumin players.  The app is so easy to use that even me being blind has an easy time with it. 

I can't believe this thread is over a year old. I feel a lot has changed since then. In the spirit of OP's desire to balance sound quality with software convenience, I'll post about my new streaming plans. The change on the horizon I am most excited for is Spotify's upcoming CD tier. I am hoping that the CD tier from Spotify is on par with the sound quality from Qobuz and Tidal because I plan to build my streaming system around Spotify. 

I used Spotify for 5 years before trialing the high res tiers of Qobuz, Amazon HD, and Tidal. I ended up going with Qobuz, but not having the software superiority of Spotify has been a constant pain point. I believe Spotify has superior marks in the following areas: curated and rotating playlists, music indexing, music discovery, content layout, user interface, various AI implementations, and the ability to share music. The only thing Spotify has been lacking was sound quality. 

In my mind, streamer manufacturer apps are unlikely to ever rival the streaming services' apps. And Spotify provides the best app from all of the streaming services. (In my mind, Roon is neither a streamer manufacturer nor a streaming service. Rather, Roon is just a software company that tries to help the boutique HiFi manufacturers level up their software experience to match Spotify.) 

So, to build my rig around Spotify, I plan to use a Raspberry Pi 4 as my reference streamer. The aftermarket support of Pi HATs allow for many configurations to find the best digital output to match up with most DACs.  Darko released a super relevant video on using a Pi as a Spotify endpoint. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CfnXOlYiz8

See also his blog post for more info: https://darko.audio/2021/03/12-more-thoughts-on-the-raspberry-pi-as-spotify-connect-endpoint/

Lastly, I also want to give Roon a fair shake before leaving the world of boutique HiFi services for Spotify: https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/what-features-of-roon-are-worth-the-price-compensate-for-roon...

Most streamers will work well with generic UPnP/DLNA apps or apps that support OpenHome. The Cambridge is an unfortunate exception -- it seems to work only with its own app.

Two of the better control point apps I’ve found on Android (in 9 years of streaming) are BubbleUPnP and HiFiCast. I have licenses for both.

B. is more flexible and supports OpenHome and Tidal, Qobuz. H. is more streamlined but does not support those things. I would recommend either, depending on what you and your device need. For example, Lumin and Auralic use OpenHome, so BubbleUPnP would be the recommendation.

@mazian -- BubbleUPnP when used with MinimServer does a great job of serving and controlling classical music (assuming you have got the tags right) and is far less costly than Roon. But if you are using Tidal (and to a lesser degree, Qobuz), the tags often will NOT be right.

P.S. Does ANYONE understand how to get paragraph spacing working right on Audiogon?

“Streamers with best apps?”

For me, Aurender with their Conductor App. Been using it for 5 plus years. Nothing else out there I care or feel the need to explore :-)

End of May there will be a new app from Innuos. The blog on their site about it is mightily impressive. Likely to be the first of many putting pressure on Roon by doing what they do at jest as well if but better.

Roon really is the best, and it’s the best by leaps and bounds. I’m a LUMIN owner and my opinion is that it’s awful. It doesn’t offer the functionality native to Qobuz or Tidal. Bluos is waaaay better than LUMIN. But in the end, Roon truly is vastly superior, especially if you want any info on what you are playing and/or want to discover new music. The downside to roon is that it requires a server/core. The app debate comes down to: you get what you pay for and the free options are simply bad. Using Tidal and Qobuz are decent experiences for their own content... but if you want access and metadata to your own media Roon is the way to go.

@usery you may know about this service already but for a classical listener this is the best:

https://app.idagio.com/discover

check it out. You may be surprised by the absence of confusion.

Tidal Connect is convenient but it might be long time until they get to your streamer.

To the OP’s original post:

"So first question. Does anyone know how the Essentials app lists classical albums in Tidal My Collection and does it have a search function for the albums saved?"

I don’t.

"Second question: what streamers can you recommend that at least are equal and preferably better than the Tidal app..."

If you mean "what streamers have equal or better apps than Tidal’s app?"...

... good luck. I have the Micromega M-100 integrated amp/DAC that streams through its RJ45 interface (ethernet). Their control app is barely 2-star material.

So +1 to BubbbleUPnP-as-control-point app as recommended up in the thread ^^^.

For this 90%-classical listener all the music service apps suck in various ways as catalog & metadata browsers - and I mean all of them. If you want an effective ux you have to invest: building your own catalog with metadata (eg ripping your cd’s and tagging the music files), paying $$$ for an addt’l 3rd-party app/service (Roon etc), and/or learning about and applying alternatives to the beaten path. Personally I’ve invested in 1 and 3.

My Roon experience was limited.  I tried the free trial but on day 2 my vintage MacAiir froze and was dangerously overheating.  I have several thousand CDs in my collection and I think the computer was overtaxed.  At any rate the one day that I did fiddle with it for Classical it was similar to Audirvana Plus.  Definitely an improvement over Tidal, but that is a low bar.  It’s another program designed with non Classical in mind that tries to retro fit Classical in and imo doesn’t succeed, and not worth the money.  Ymmv

Well, it's pretty clear that if Tidal is your sole source, they do not implement classical very well or logically--i also had a Cambridge DAC (my first DAC) but after a friend showed me the benefits of Roon with Tidal i purchased a new DAC that played well with Roon, and focused on implementing Roon--so far it has been a godsend for searching for classical and organizing classical playlists.  Not perfect but way better than Tidal.  I don't have experience using any of the other apps mentioned here but so far it appears they are all inferior to Roon...so my answer to you is "yes"--you may have to spend that 30 cents a day to get what you want. I would suggest you find a dealer who can show you how Roon Essentials works (i assume it's the same as Roon) and who will let you play around with it--my dealer did and it did require some tutorial from him--and see if it does what you want.

@classdstreamer I really only stream Tidal, so I use it with a single source.  It works better than the Tidal app in every way except for the "related artists" that Tidal lists when you look up someone.  Bubble doesn't port that information in.  When I want to do more free exploring, I use the Tidal app and then select the "share" option, which allow me to select BubbleUPNP and it will then automatically enque to the bottom of my playlist.  

All I'm asking for is that classical albums in particular are listed with some degree of logic and that I am able to search for albums I have saved. I don't think I should have to spend $119 per annum to get that do you?

And yes it works on an iPhone

OP--Interesting  you would say that Roon has features you don't want when it's Roon that has exactly the features you do want and is the best library management app/software out there.  Pay the $119 a year--you can import all Tidal playlists and it manages them better than Tidal.

@cal3713 do you see any benefit to using Bubble if I only stream from Qobuz? My understanding is that Bubble might work best for those who play music from multiple sources. 

@mahler123

  " I also use Bluesound OS, which looks terrible unless you compare with my latest streamer, Bryston BDP3, which has a barely useable app. "

Hi there, I recently purchased a Bryston BDA-3.14 Streamer (a BDA-3 plus "Pi" Streamer in one box).  I have it hooked up and streaming fine, yes the GUI is on the ugly side, but it works for my limited searches.  I haven't created any playlists and I'm quite sure you know way more about the app "Manic Moose".  I want to add a NAS (2tb) or two or three.
My understanding is (not tested) the Bryston sees the entire NAS on the same network and will also search that as well as Qobuz which I'm using.

There is a Youtube vid, Gary from Bryston, a three part series where he goes into more detail than I wanted at the time.  You may find that helps.

Part 1 of 3:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkDPqzT9OyE

I'm guessing that you are beyond this vid, but it may help it some regard.

To the OP, I apologize for the slight hijacking of your thread.

Regards, Barts 

I use bubbleupnp on my Android tablet. It’s free (or<$10 if you want the ad free version) and works really great. I see people bitching about all these clunky apps all the time. It’s a professional product with great support. Honestly, I’d think it was worth it if it cost $100. Works with any streamer that uses the upnp protocol.

No Mahler they are not. Cambridge Connect and Streammagic are way worse than Tidal. As I indicated Tidal is bad but at least you can search your saved albums. Incidentally I signed up for the Idagio free trial and while it seems quite good but it only has classical albums. I also play jazz and some rock.  Also there were some issues I encountered which I would hope are only prevalent for the free trial. For example I could only get standard SQ, there was no way to save albums as the heart icon just didn't appear and after each piece of music I get a sponsors message. Also communication is inadequate because when I sent a message to Idagio I got a standard message saying my queries would be addressed in 5 days

Mazian

Perhaps I wasn’t sufficiently clear, Tidal app SUCKS with Classical which I had thought was a major interest of yours.  Every other streaming app is better 

Well what can you make of all this? Basically all apps except possibly Roon are deficient in some way it seems. Bad as it is it seems the Tidal app is as good as it gets unless you want to pay for Roon.

@Mazian, Yes Chromecast will work with Tidal on both Android and iPhones. If you have at least one castable device (like the TV you mentioned), you should see the cast icon in the top right corner for most of you streaming apps. In fact, if you see that you can cast to the TV but not to the Cambridge, that probably means that you need to update the Cambridge software on their website. And like for all casting, your casting devices need to be on the same network. 

@headspace The one work around with the lack of integration between BluOS and Amazon Music is to make all your favorite music selections in the Amazon Music app and then they will (eventually) show up in BluOS app. Seems to work better when the AM app is installed on the same device as the BlueOS app. But you can’t make favorite selections in BlueOS and have them appear in AM as you can do with BlueOS x Tidal.

From what I have read on forums, Blue Sound is not the one to blame for the lack of integration with AM as it was/is Amazon that did not share the integration specifications with the streaming device manufacturers with enough lead time to have it integrated. I have yet to hear one person say they are dropping BlueOS and Tidal because of the lack of integration with AM, it is always the opposite, they are staying with Tidal. So Amazon definitely hurt their rollout being so secretive.

I have both Tidal and Amazon Music HD hoping BlueOS comes out with a new sw update soon. In the mean time I can also stream to my DAC directly from the Amazon Music app on my Android tablet using Bluetooth.

For years I have used a PC as my source.  I just moved to a larger office/listening room and it is not as practical.  I bought a Node 2i last week and the app is OK, not great.  Tidal integration is decent, but I find it frustrating that I can't click on an artist or album to go to that item.  You basically have to use search for everything.  I have some experience with the app on the Naim streamer and it appears better than BluOS.  I have been told by many people that Roon is the best right now.  That's my very limited 1 cent opinion.

I've tried remote control apps from Lumin, Aurender, BluOs and DCS.  I agree with lots of folks that voted for Lumin - although the sound quality of the streamer is more important to me.  I'm thankful that DCS recently upgraded it's remote control app to Mosaic as it narrows the gap of the other mentioned apps and I find it's all that I need. It makes available a wide variety of high SQ source options such as UPnP, USB, Deezer, Qobuz, TIDAL, Radio and some low SQ options such as Spotify and Podcasts.

Somewhat clunky is right. I've worked around it some by using the Tidal phone app to do searches to save then go back to the bluos app to play them. Wish they could sort saved albums alphabetically  though like they do with saved artists.
  
I do have to state I'm reasonably pleased with the bluos app.

I think Qobuz works well on the BluOS.  For me the experience is equal to using the Qobuz stand alone app on my Android phone

It’s a pity both BluO’s and Amazon HD can’t get on the same page and integrate properly together. Anyone else experience this? Anyone using the BluO’s app to stream Amazon Ultra HD is only able to stream only one track at a time before your selection just stops!! Forget about streaming a whole album! To do that you need Tidal. At least the BluO’s app integrates with Tidal well enough to allow you to do that. Think I will be going back soon...

I haven’t tried the Roon IOS app. It seems this fella opened up a real can of worms 🐛 with this thread. I’m quite disappointed in BluO’s for not having their act together when it comes to the development of their app and half baked integration with most streaming services. BluO’s doesn’t accept any responsibility and blames Amazon and of course Amazon blames BluO’s! The end user (ME) doesn’t care who’s fault it is and just wants it to work! 
Well at least Tidal works with BluO’s even if it is a rather clunky experience. 

+1 Lumin U1 mini
Upnp open home allows u to use multiple apps.....some better than others.

The Lumin App is simple to use and does not require me to consider Roon or JRiver.  

@mahler123Great pickup! One of those spell checker mishaps, but it reads well :)

Thanks classdstreamer I get the difference between Chromecast hardware and software so I will need to try and find out if Chromecast is on my CXN. However given that Chromecast is a Google product and Google and Apple don't get on will it work from an iPhone or only an android phone?

For classical music I've found Primephonic to be a treat.  Fidelity via my Mytek BB is excellent.  I'm pretty ham-handed when it comes to the world of streaming, but I've been getting got lots of email guidance from their resident guru Marco.  As for repertoire, I haven't yet explored their opera choices but their selection of orchestral music/chamber music etc is like a trip to the classical music candy store.

@ Mazian

I agree that Chromecast, in its basic implementation, is downmarket. But I would point out that the the Chromecast hardware and the Chromecast software are different things that share the same name.

Cambridge says they now support the Chromecast software as a free download if your unit didn’t come with CC pre-installed. Because you didn’t want to purchase Roon, I figured you’d be interested in free. Chromecast works with Tidal too. You can try CC easily with your current setup. I would be interested to know whether you detect an audible difference between the CXN app and casting to the CXN directly from the Tidal app.

In a world were hardware manufacturers build their own software apps to capture market share (who wants to leave a manufacturer if it means loosing their favorited artists, songs, and playlists?), I find Chromecast refreshing. Implementing CC is relatively costless compared to programming, updating, and maintaining a separate app. Plus CC is super convenient for the end user.

I’m not married to CC. If I learn that CC is audibly inferior to other streaming softwares, I’ll start planning my next upgrade. Forum members here seem to indicate that BluOS, Lumin, and Roon have the most robust software. But right now, my priorities are inexpensive, convenient, and good sounding. A tricked out CC Audio seems to check those boxes for me.

From the above post by amg56

“...CD’s backed up on a local hard dick (typically 2TB)...”

His streamer offers more features than mine.

My experience with Idagio was that it had a very limited catalog.  For example, it may offer 5 versions of a Brahms Symphony, out of perhaps 200 currently available.  One can logically argue the necessity of having 200 versions of a piece, but if they are available on other services, it would be nice to have.  Tidal Classical offerings were described by another poster as “having been organized by a Chimp on Crystal Meth” and my trial suggested that might be an understatement.  The first movement of the Beethoven Moonlight Sonata would be followed by Dukas Sorcerer Apprentice—you get the idea.  I use Qobuz currently, which has a large catalogue and a reasonable search engine, although it can take multiple attempts to find something.
  My bigger frustration is having an App that can find CDs once burned.  The problem with Classical is that the algorithms designed for pop work terribly.
The Artist might be classified as the Composer, the Conductor, the Soloist, or the intern who fetched the recording engineer a cup of coffee.  I have better luck locating a CD on my shelves than finding it in a streaming App, so I stopped disposing of them after I burned them, which defeats the initial purpose of getting into streaming.  I get particularly frustrated with Bluesound and Bryston Manic Moose Apps because even editing the data in their app doesn’t do diddle—the program basically ignores the edits and stores it according to its own whims.  At least with iTunes, once I edited something it stayed edited.
  The best technique is to make a playlist.  This is relatively easy with Bluesound, and I had created 20 or so, but then I had to do a Factory Reset to fix a hardware issue, and it wiped out the playlists.
  I keep hoping that someone who enjoys Classical Music will invent a useful Universal App that can be used with any streamer.  Until then, I have basically gone back to CDs

At least mahler123 seems to understand the problem even if there is no solution as yet. I have never heard of Idagio but will investigate. Does anyone know at what bps rate it streams at or the size of its library? As for using Chromecast I would have thought it was a bit downmarket. I have a Chromecast attached to my TV and the sound is very average. Also re Lumin I have read elsewhere on Audiogon that it only lists albums saved by date added just like streammagic. How useful is that!??

Roon is the best. I happen to use it with my Innuos unit. 

Hey Mazian, ditch Tidal for the Idagio streaming service. It has the best indexing for classical music and is available in Australia. Idagio also supports Chromecast as does your CXN. You won't have to worry about any streamer software as you'll be casting directly from the Idagio app. At least try this route before buying new hardware. 

 https://www.lifehacker.com.au/2019/07/the-best-classical-music-streaming-service-is-idagio/

Finding a good streamer for Classical Music is well near impossible, imo.  The best classification for classical that I have seen turns out to be itunes.  I also use Bluesound OS, which looks terrible unless you compare with my latest streamer, Bryston BDP3, which has a barely useable app.

Thanks guys for your contributions- some useful, some not so much because as far as I know Tidal is the only hi res streaming service available in Australia. Amazon HD and Qobuz are not yet available and may not be in my lifetime as I am 79. In terms of hardware most of the usual suspects were mentioned with their attendant software. However, like many streamer reviews available there was little detail about how the apps handle classical music. I don't know what "integrates well with Tidal" actually means - does it mean you can actually use the Tidal app from an iPhone? As for Roon I know it's reputation but I don't want to pay another annual subscription if I can help it as I don't want much of what Roon provides. My needs are simple, so let me pose more straightforward questions about apps only

1) How do the apps mentioned list classical albums saved in Tidal My Collection? A-Z, artists, soloists, composers etc and are the lists based on last names, first names or as I have seen the first letter that appears on the album? Listing by artist is fine for pop, rock or jazz but it tends to be more complicated for classical albums, as you have composer, soloist, orchestra or conductor to consider.  

2) Is there a search function for Tidal My Collection - not just for the whole Tidal library offering?

I don't think most software engineers have any idea about cataloguing classical music and would benefit greatly from the assistance of professional library cataloguers. If my ideal app is out there I would like to know.

Back to the actual streamers most of those mentioned are on my possible list, although I don't think Bluesound Node 2i quite cuts it even if it is good value for money. Maybe it doesn't matter if it is plugged into a good external DAC. I don't know but I'm sure someone out there has a view.

Define 'best'? So many different categories to own the title of best? Playing the odds, an app might be good in 1, or 2 areas and be mediocre in more and terrible at others too...
Sound quality, ease of use/navigation, free or pay, best in a particular genre, idle log off timetables, too many commercials, video availability, downloadable content... These are just a few categories of judgement that would be differently categorized on your priority list than say maybe mine and others. If you list say maybe 3 different categories to be best in, that would give us better parameters to abide by when making the BEST decision (lol, see what I did there in that last sentence?). 

Aurender with their proprietary Conductor App...been a very happy user for 6 plus years. 

wsrrsw

Apple Music and iTunes before that are/were the gold standard.

I couldn't disagree more. iTunes was bloated, restricted, cumbersome software. Once you tried something such as JRiver's Media Center, you'd never go back.

iTunes started as SoundJam. When Apple acquired it, the company actually disabled some of its functionality.

Apple Music and iTunes before that are/were the gold standard. So far nothing else has come close.

I use a Lumin T2 and IMO the native software needs updating/overhauling. I'm hopeful Lumin will work with Qobuz & Tidal for a better interface. But even as is, the high res files are well worth the OS. Early days still.

With auralic you could use airplay to stream from amazon I believe. 

Another vote for the BluOS. Excellent, easy and works wonderful!

This may have been mentioned already and is not really a direct answer to your question; but, it may address your stated frustrations:


https://youtu.be/u6Xz-P_N_4U

I think the question you ask is very Timely, interesting, and important.  Right now, software development is lagging behind in a protean world of incredible music services leaving our gleaming electronic jewels underutilized.   
Please!  I just want a perfect noiseless streamer that will send all the music that out there to my favorite dac using software that just works.  
I don’t want to have to go through a complex workaround just to play a music file.  
I don’t want to buy your dac.
I sure don’t want to put red book cds on your machine when a 24/192 (or more over killed) version of just about any cd ever released is out there almost free. 

Maybe auralic is closest to getting it right.  But they can’t stream the world of music that’s on Amazon.  
I’m here waiting.  Playing lots of records.  Waiting.