Streamer vs renderer vs music server...help

@charles1dad agreed, it all seems to play a part in the overall presentation and enjoyment. 

@crandell25 

The change was not subtle in my system and really exposed how running roon on my iMac or using the Vega’s built in streamer was not providing the performance you can get when things are implemented on a dedicated system. The music is much more detailed and has significantly more weight to it. I am very pleased with the change.

Congratulations on your very successful outcome. I am glad that you discovered for your self that it is not a simplistic case of "it's only about the 1s and zeros" as was mentioned early in this thread. The quality of the digital source (Streamer/server/transport) most definitely matter as does DAC quality. As has wisely been said before, it all matters if you want to achieve excellent sound quality.

Charles

Hi everyone,

I thought I would post an update. I took some time to decide on my commitment to Roon or other ecosystems. I decided I like Roon and preferred to stick with it and to find a way to make Roon sound its best. I ended up contacting Baetis Audio and they built a custom Revolution system around my needs. The system is a stripped down Linux implementation running roon with a great AES output that now runs directly into the Auralic Vega G2. The change was not subtle in my system and really exposed how running roon on my iMac or using the Vega’s built in streamer was not providing the performance you can get when things are implemented on a dedicated system. The music is much more detailed and has significantly more weight to it. I am very pleased with the change.

The other great thing with Baetis Audio is that you are not really stuck with a particular products ecosystem. If a Roon replacement comes out or you need a windows implementation to accommodate something different... it appears it is a fairly easy transition to make. I know some folks have Windows running on the Baetis systems and using JRiver instead vs how I implemented...

There are definitely lots of great options out there and we all have different needs and systems but I wanted to share my positive experience with the change to the Baetis Audio system. Joe at Baetis is fantastic to deal with as well!

@jjss49 100% agree now that I understand everything a little better.

@crandell25

i think your main decision is whether you are happy using tidal (and thus tidal connect) to handle all your music streaming needs... if so, you don’t need roon...

roon’s value is in integrating a variety of digital music sources - streamed as well as localized and computerized... think of it as a smart librarian that organizes all of it from different sources so you can see and choose from all of it, from various sources, in an easy to use, easy to understand manner, with nice photos and descriptions of each piece of music - the price of this of course, is in the subscription, and the cost of having a computer running to gather and coordinate all that info, plus send music to your endpoint/dac - you go that route then you need to spend more $ to do it right, keep your network and signal transfer noise free...

tidal connect does all that at your streamer, but of course, it only deals with organizing your music (favorites, genres, artists, new releases) streamed from tidal itself

@mahler123 I originally started the thread because I am debating trying a different DAC without a built in streamer and all the terminologies were somewhat confusing as I started to read on streamer recommendations...  this thread has helped me make sense of the different pieces and what I potentially need given my requirements.  It has also highlighted areas where my current setup could be improved upon.  As to why I want to make changes, that's a great question!  I have been toying with trying an R2R DAC for a while so all the posts from the group have helped me understand the digital chain a little better.  That and I have been isolating for the past week so I may have gone mad.  :)

I am a little late to this thread, but some questions/observations for the OP

1) I think you are having anxiety about all the terminology.  I agree that it can be confusing.  It is also a moving target. My advice is take a deep breath and relax.  The goal is to get great sounding music with a minimum of fuss.

2) After reading the thread I haven’t figured out why you dislike your current set up. If you like the way it sounds and is easy to operate then you ought to be done.  If not, why not?

3) Budget?

+! for rareace 

I stream exclusively and have been using the new NODE connected to a Qutest (w/ SBooster) via a high quality USB.  It's a $3000 outlay that likely provides me with 95+% of the sonic benefit my ears can detect.  Long-term, I may not remain in the BluOS camp, but it seems to be one of the few current OS' with the capacity to offer the broadest access to quality streaming content.  And, as streaming technologies quickly evolve, I'd rather incur a potentially slight compromise in SQ to investing significant dollars in an ecosystem that might eventually struggle to scale against the competition.  Good luck!

HMI.  Human Machine Interface. 

Fancy title for app used to control your digital source?

Are there any reviews out there that address the pros and cons of these apps?

@jjss49 agreed, some great advice and knowledge shared on the thread.  It has really helped me get a better understanding of how the digital pieces fit together and what would work best for my situation.  I do think a good dedicated streamer, regardless of my dac choice is currently a missing link. The comments have also helped get a better understanding of how Roon works and how others have implemented a dedicated core...to get the best out of that solution.  Lots of good stuff for me to digest!

op

good advice given already

if you are just streaming tidal and you already know auralic’s stuff, then just get an auralic streamer (aries) and then use it to feed your future dac of choice

your vega does all that but it’s dac is integral, no digital output is offered iirc to drive other dacs, so if you are wanting to play with other dacs (holo may etc etc) and explore their sound quality, the vega needs to go

then you can also retire your outboard i-mac too, it becomes unnecessary unless you want to run roon (once again - not necessary if using tidal connect on the aries) - the aries will do what is needed and it will be less noisy (electrically) than the imac

@sns I don't have a vinyl setup but I am starting to question that decision with all the streaming complexities to get it right.  :)

The G2 is a great unit and you're right, the easiest path is to just add the Aries G2.1 and move on.  I am going to see if I can find one to demo.  Maybe the Aries will remove the itch to try a new DAC and all the unknowns that change will bring!  I definitely like Roon better than the Auralic controller.  That said, it is not a bad user experience so I could lean toward it if I get the sound quality right.

@audiotroy thanks for the info and the recommendation, I will take a look!

Lets see if this will help.

 

Streamers are dedicated devices designed to play files sourced from internet repositories ie tidal ouobuz. Spotify deezer or internet radio

 

If the device is roon certified then it can act as an endpoint a receiver of roon and compatible with their protocols.

 

If the streamer contains a hard drive and can store files it can be called a server.

 

A streamerdepending on model some run wifi. Naims ndx 2 runs well via wifi.

 

However the best sounding does require ethernet.

 

As per sound quality yes these devices matter

We were auralic dealers the Innous sounded far better

 

Then we discovered 432evo servers from Belgium which sounded even better and were more s ular and upgradable

 

To date we have tested many different devices for streaming

The better the source the better the sound from the Dac

 

Digital noise can alter the data so you want a pure data stream.

Our 432evo servers are a huge technological improvement over most digital devices because of the incredibile level of data isolation provided

 

Cou is seperate so is the clock and usb soundcard all run by individual sbooster linear power supplies.

Andrew quint from the absolute sound heard one and bought the review sample

Come to axponna krell alta audio room and you can hear the432Aeon server for yourself.

 

Dave and Troy

AUDIOINTELLECT NJ

432Evo importer USA

 

 

 

 

@crandell25 Your not alone, streaming is easily the most complex system within our audio systems. I have vinyl setup, and even taking into account every little nuance of this pales in comparison to streaming.

 

While we all have our experiences to offer, there is no objective evidence that any particular setup is superior. I happen to prefer a two computer solution,ie, separate server and streamer and optical conversion for networks, my experience with other solutions led me to this conclusion. Still, there are so many variations that I can't say with absolute authority this is best for every setup. This also goes for every one of us here.

 

As to your particulars, I used to run Auralic Vega, I wanted to upgrade to the G2, but the Lightning Link threw me off. Proprietary solutions bother me, especially if using them is required for best sound quality. Once I started using Roon I became addicted to it's ease and completeness so proprietary software no longer interested me. Having said that, based on reviews and my experience with original Vega  that should be very nice streamer/dac. The negative thing about it is running Roon on it doesn't allow for full potential of G2.

 

If I were in your situation, I'd be torn between keeping Vega and adding the Aires G2.  Be happy with running Lightning Link and/or be happy running Roon knowing your not extracting full potential of that combo. This exactly why I chose not to purchase G2 as I knew I wouldn't be happy running Roon at less than full potentials of the Auralic devices. You could also go to the Holo May, or I'd agree with LordMelton tor the Musetec 005 (biased as I own this wonderful dac), or some other dac. So then you need to purchase streamer or run usb out of server, most servers run usb directly off motherboards, not good, so then you need usb renderer/streamer/Roon Endpoint (its really all the same thing, just different names). If you go streamer route you'll need to get switch if you don't have one already or run ethernet out of router. I could further add many more complications for you!

 

So, my take is if you're happy with Vega  with above limitations keep what you have, add the Aires G2 and you're pretty much set. Network improvements can be set aside for now. Or you go to another dac with all it's attendant complications. While I believe you can do slightly better with setups other than your Auralic, it will be big hassle relative to keeping Vega and adding Aires. Auralic makes nice digital solutions, running Roon vs Link in reviews I'm aware of do state Link sound quality superior to Roon, by how much I can't say. If its substantial enough you don't like running Roon  and don't like Link software I'm afraid you may be stuck with changing out dacs.

When it comes to digital everything matters in the chain from router to DAC. This is the noisiest chain so cleaning up the signal with switches, grounding and linear power supplies are key to great digital sound. 
-Alex

@crandell25 Stay in there buddy, good things will come!

Love my Grace digital link, $179, makes me smile...

@lordmelton I am slowly emerging from the murky waters lol

@crandell25 Well I expect you're even more confused now..lol

Get an Aurender N20 and a Musetec 005 DAC, currently the best price to performance ratio you can get.

They'll make you happy for a long time and they don't bitch either.

Research the hell out of them.......Good Luck!

@crandell25 

 

I mostly stream tidal so I don't necessarily need to pay extra for CD ripping or file storage capabilities

Thus no need for a server. The addition of a server will have no positive effect on sound quality. Swapping THIS server for THAT server might. 
 

@carlsbad 

Here is something that many won't agree with.  But digital is a bunch of 1's and 0s.  There is no real sound quality to be gained with digital beyond making sure you don't drop any bits and you don't have speed and timing issues.  (Flame suit on).

This fallacy has been factually debunked longtime ago. If you choose to believe it, this is fine and will save you money but just repeating it is not going to make it true. There is also a lot hiding behind that sentence: “…beyond making sure you don’t drop any bits and you don’t have speed and timing issues”.  Sounds like if one hears any difference then there must have been some timing issues or bits dropping. So you are always right.  It’s like saying you are alive unless you are dead. 

@mgrif104 Thanks for politely posting the other side of the argument.  One can often get flamed around here.  --Jerry

@mgrif104 Thanks for sharing your experience with the Auralic products and the increased benefits of combining their DAC and streamer offerings. I have thought about adding the streamer to my current setup but I have this itch to try an R2R Dac that won’t seem to go away! That said, you have peaked my interest again to check with my dealer to see if he has the Aries G2.1 in so I can try it in my system.

I do agree that the Lightning DS does sound better than Roon. I do use both but lean to the Roon user experience more. I would love to try Qobuz but it is still not available in Canada to my knowledge. Hopefully, that will change.

I appreciate the feedback!

@crandell25 

as you own a Vega G2, I’m going to suggest you consider trying Auralic’s Aries G2.1 streamer.  I have a different view than Carlsbad - The streamer or source is at least as important as the DAC in my experience.  I know of several who post regularly on these forums who feel the same.

The Auralic Aries pairs particularly well (as a design goal) with the Vega if you connect them via Auralic’s lighting link (LL) which allows the units to speak to each other and share processing resources.  LL is a significantly better digital connection than the other options on your Vega. I tried them all.  And, LL is a particularly significant improvement if you upgrade from the supplied stock LL cable.

I’d put it this way:

Vega G2 as a DAC = quite good

Aries G2.1 as a streamer = quite good 

Vega + Aries connected via LL = very good

I directly compared my front end to multiple other options, including two of which are about $35k (either of which I was prepared to purchase).  We’re those options better?  Perhaps, but the differences were less than I was expecting and not nearly enough to justify the additional expense. 

I will also suggest that you are throttling your Vega if you’re using it as a Roon endpoint.  It is very easy to hear the improvement when streaming using Auralic’s Lightning DS controller.  Just try playing your favorite file over your Vega using Roon. Then play the same file via LDS. For me, it was quite a difference.It may be that they’ve addressed this with a software update since I did my comparison, but it’s pretty common held view that Roon - which has to work across so many devices - may not be the best for sound quality. 

Further, since you’re interested in sound quality, try Qobuz vs Tidal which I found to be the better of the two.  Lastly, I will note that I recently purchased the Auralic Sirius outboard processor (again connected via LL so that they communicate and share resources.) Since you already own some Auralic gear, consider that they have provided an upgrade path which is compelling where the sum appears to be greater than the parts. 

Of course, YMMV, but hope this helps as you consider your next options. 

Best,

  

Human Machine Interface.  

NUC is the Intel version of a Raspberry Pi. HMI means nothing to me.

@rockrider thanks I will check it out.

What's an HMI?  What's an NUC? I guess my acronym IQ is sooooo Last Week.

I recommend perusing The Hans Beekhuyzen Channel. Hans has many very informative episodes. 
 

 

My nuc is connected to my dac via USB.  I use a short, point to point soldered connection cable, but nothing elaborate...ones an zeros.  My core NUC is beside my router with another short cable.

@carlsbad thanks for your thoughts!  In your case, your streaming NUC is wired directly to your DAC?

Here is something that many won't agree with.  But digital is a bunch of 1's and 0s.  There is no real sound quality to be gained with digital beyond making sure you don't drop any bits and you don't have speed and timing issues.  (Flame suit on).

So the most important thing is a good HMI.  Find one that is friendly to use.  If you like the Qobuz or Tidal interface you can use that.  I like Roon a lot.  So I have a dedicated core and streaming computer (2 NUCs).  If you like Roon, get a dedicated computer so it doen't have to fight you for processor time and you're good. 

Streamers are just another name for a dedicated computer.  Nothing wrong with them except sometimes the cost.  Of course they will tell you they are superior and many believe that.  see paragraph 1.

Now the DAC is a different story and that is where you should put your money.  I like Dave.

Jerry