Starting from scratch in a large room

Lots of interesting answers.unfortunately none of them are grounded in the physical reality of your room. It is easily 3X to 5X the volume most HiFi speakers are intended for. Your placement limitations are exactly that, but there are speakers that should work well. Specifically, you need controlled directivity to minimize sound from reflecting off the walls, ceiling, and floors. In other words, horns. That leaves about 99% of all commercial speakers out of the conversation - their small drivers that work in small rooms are simply unable to 'throw' the amount of sound at the distances you need.  The new JBL 4349 looks like a very likely choice. At 29X18X13" deep, it will fit easily on a 24" shelf, and even allow for some placement toe-in. I would suggest a good 100-200 W/Ch amp to drive them. $8250 per pair. 

First, thanks very much to everyone who responded to this thread. So much high-quality advice/information (both technical and practical--heck, even psychological!) offered to a complete stranger, and I truly appreciate it.

Maybe some negotiating with/bribing of my wife might be a more efficient use of time than trying to figure out how to get great sound out of small speakers in a large room.

Room correction seems to be a common theme, and @kota1's comment about being able to achieve a flat frequency response makes sense to me. Also, thanks for the Paradigm recommendation--that may be where I start, since it would be a good base for a house-wide system even if it doesn't work in the living room for some reason.

The Buchardts are appealing to me, particularly the ease with which they can be returned if they don't work out. Perhaps the wireless A500 would be a good alternative, with the Platin hub (with room correction but no AirPlay 2) or the Primare SC15 (no room correction, but AirPlay 2 and wired outputs in case I wanted a wired sub). And I've read in a few places that the Buchardt's put out a lot of sound for their size.

It may come down to personal preference, but @ddd1 might be right about the futility of using smaller speakers in the big room. I guess we will see. Those BM15A's are an interesting option. My only other thought was that maybe I could use Klipsch Heresy IV speakers as "bookshelf" speakers, since I think they would technically fit on the intended shelf space.

Thanks again.

 

 

@ddd1 , the Yamaha HS8 studio monitors has 8 inch drivers, if the OP gets the Paradigm PW Link it has the pre/streamer/ARC etc. No sub out though :)

OP, if you look on Agon you might find a pair.

I would forget about an integrated amp and instead get a preamp with dsp and a pair of large active studio monitors (use the port plugs if necessary and the controls on the back of each speaker to adjust the highs and lows and you may not even need to use dsp).  Not sure what your source is but some people can get by with a versatile DAC like the RME ADI-2 instead of a preamp.

ie. Dynaudio BM15A, Adam, etc.

If once placed you are unable to reach in behind and turn them on/off you can plug them into a device to accomplish that.

Tiny speakers in a big room won’t work out, even with subs.

@rolox 

+1 I make it my policy to buy my partner a really nice expensive gift before I buy something for my audio system. If then putting speakers in a communal room, after the present… involve her in the process of picking out the speakers.

 

While I never bought Sonus Faber for the looks… it was a great bonus… and my partner does admire their looks.

I’d suggest a good conversation with your wife. If your room is huge, having a pair of floor standers isn’t going to change much to her daily routine. If the issue, then, is just cosmetics, maybe she can compromise a little to allow her loved one some fun and self-indulgence with his hard earned cash. You only live once.

@kota1, Those are some good recommendations. I couldn’t agree with you more about the need to include room correction from the start.  And it may be a bit much to expect us to research all the components others  mention.  So, for the record, 

The Buchardt I150 includes Hypex NCORE amplification, separate linear power supplies, a Sabre ES 9028 PRO DAC, and a  full set of connectivity options.

…. and most noteably, a very well implemented quad-core DSP that includes advanced room correction and smart subwoofer integration among other features.

I personally own Paradigm Personas, etc., but remain highly impressed with the feature list and system synergies that Bouchardt seems to offer for the OP, as well as being a great value proposition.

this thread definitely has a lot of "amazing" suggestions and explains why audiophiles are ridiculed.

The dude wants good sound, from a good looking system. He doesn't want Doc Brown crawling on the floor finding imperfections that affect the sound. 

Some of you need to read the room. But of course it's not the just this thread, more often than not, these posts are full of comments where xy just keeps repeating the same points, same brands, with seemingly no connection to the question. 

Perhaps it was mentioned, and I missed it, but I would be tempted to try Listening at a closer range than usual. I can't hardly think of a worse situation than trying fil a large room without an incredible amount of room interaction. 

 I did have a large room once that because of its shape perhaps, provided astonishingly great audio. Don't ask me why. So I guess that in certain circumstances it may be possible, but a regular long rectangular room seems doomed from the start.

@kota1  - I didn't read through all of the suggestions and it sounds like yours is likely a very reasonable option.  I also wasn't trying to imply that "elite" automatically means "elitist" or "snobby", but I think it's important for people looking for more entry level advice to understand that this forum has a lot of members that have will spend more on a single cable than they may be willing to spend on their entire system.  I'm even in that category and have an amazing system by any normal standard.

@mceljo , I think you make a fantastic conclusion about the end game is appreciating a more realistic sound. I disagree with this forum being "elite". The recommendation I made of Paradigm PW600 includes, the speakers, the amps, a streamers, the dac, the preamp, and room correction software plus a calibrated microphone on sale at 50% off, $600 all in. You plug it in, download the app, run the calibration and BAM, enjoy. If you have an additional source like a CDP or turntable, plug it in. If the OP needs a sub for the big room it has a sub out too. This is as simple as it comes, hardly elite.

I have not read every response to your question, but wanted to pass along a more general perspective for you.

First, you have to recognize that Audiogon includes a lot of the audiophile "elites" that simply think about stereo sound in ways that most of us simply cannot replicate or even appreciate in many cases.  I would equate it to someone looking for a sports car and having a Camaro/Mustang budget while getting advice from hyper-car owners that do their own maintenance.  I'm not in any way trying to disparage these members, but think it's important to understand the wide range of advice you are going to get.

My system in total is worth less than some members have spend on a single power cord, yet I only have one friend that has a stere setup that's similar to mine.  My setup is limited by my small house and family so I know that it could sound much better if I had the ability to optimize the setup.

I find that even with a suboptimal setup it's possible to get sucked into the hobby and appreciate the sound quality.

I wouldn't recommend that you spent an astronomical sum on your setup given your constraints, but a nice set of bookshelf speakers, with a subwoofer, and a solid amplifier would most likely result in a setup that you would appreciate.  

I have a pair of Audioengine A5 speakers in the other room that sound ok, but when I've had them setup next to the TV you can convince yourself that you're listening to my larger speakers.

You might even consider a pair of center channel speakers as they would have more drivers while also not having rear ports in most cases.  When I was look for some speakers for my father-in-law in years past one of the dealers suggested this as an option.

As long as you get a quality set of speakers and a nice amplifier you'll be able to appreciate the more realistic sound even when using them for background music. 

The OP’s question is is NOT about speakers, it is "starting from scratch in a large room and the challenge is book shelf speakers must be used.

So, to start from scratch:

1) Get a room kit from Auralex or Sonitususa.com to treat the room. Call them if you need help choosing one.

2) Select a pair of active speakers that come with a microphone and dsp. If the Paradigms PW600 are too small look at Dynaudio Focus.

3) Measure and adjust until you get a flat frequency response (see the chart in my system profile for an example)

4) Enjoy

If you are getting passive speakers fine. Just get an amp that has room correction software from Anthem, Martin Logan, NAD, etc.

If you can't get a flat frequency response I don't see why you would want to spend a lot of money on your system.

 

@deertrail7 When you come to these forums and ask posters what to do, you are going to get all the biases of each poster. I would suggest doing research including, as a poster above suggested, googling good speakers against the wall. Then I would suggest finding speakers and equipment that you can try out and return if you don't like them. As merely suggestions, I went to an audio show a few months ago with just bookshelf speakers and the standouts, to me, were the Buchardt Audio S400 Mark II, the KEF R3s, the Totem Sky and the Philharmonic BMR Monitor. I don't know how they do on a bookshelf. With your budget, you could probably go way up the chain on these or other brands. I recall one YouTube reviewer raving about the Totem Element Fire. Some of these bookshelf speakers will get you down to 30 Hz and probably move some air. Then when you find your speaker you are going to have to match it with amp/integrated or preamp or mono blocks. Solid state or tube? So many decisions.

@sandstone expensive cables at this point will be a total waste

@audiokinesis,

This post may read a bit differently from some of the above thread.  If your wooden countertop is situated along the 18 ft. wall, then your situation may not be nearly so dire.

If you can get say, 8-12 ft. of centered speaker separation and move your 13 ft listening position a bit closer, you may be okay.

Speaker selection and positioning will be key.   Speaker plane should be positioned at or slightly beyond the edge of the cabinet.  Flexibility for at least some tow-in will help.

Importantly, you should avoid using any open port rear-firing speakers.  Unfortunately, this may rule out your otherwise excellent choice of the KEF R3. However, a baffled rear port will allow close-wall placement.

I can speak to you with some confidence because my room is very similar, and over the course of time I’ve tried most permutations.  With some effort, You can set up a very effective near- and mid- field listening experience.  Try to think of your room as  say, 18 x 20, just without a back wall.  Listening in the back section may not be highly resolved stereo, but you can still rock out to good hifi sounds.

As for components, in lieu of my first wish to suggest Ayre Acoustics EX-8 2.0, ($8000) I think I instead have another strong recommendation for you to consider: 

Buchardt Audio S400 Mark II speakers ($2100), (amazing speakers, good for near wall) and 

Buchardt Audio I150 all-in-one integrated amplifier ($2000) minus $500 if bought with the speakers.  Check out the specifications and great reviews.

Buchardt will ship you the components to try out for 4 weeks.  100 bucks no hassle return. Then, for around $5k, some cables and possibly a sub or two, you might just be well on your way.  Good Luck!

 

 

 

 

 

I think we're past the best advice offered up by @russ69, and @ghdprentice.

You may be happy with what you get, but it seems to be an inefficient use of spending money as pointed out. You may well enjoy the results going the other, suggested, direction.

Good luck, regardless; these are always fun projects.

@deertrail7, what are the horizontal and vertical dimensions of your 24" deep shelf?

The reason I ask is, in that size room adequate SPL capability and low-end air-moving capability are going to be an issue, and both of those tie back in to loudspeaker size.  So if shelf-mounting is your only realistic option for aesthetic concerns, the size of that shelf space becomes a factor.

Note that high-end recording studios sometimes flush-mount speakers in walls, so your situation may not be all that bad, assuming that a true flush-mount installation is feasible.

Duke

dealer/manufacturer

I wonder if a surround system might work such as Definitive Technologies.  Wall mounted with hidden wires.  Looks like you are more interested in creating a mood rather than trying to truly image sound.  

36" shelf is a good height for horizontal speakers, beams drivers close to seated ear level. (42-48 for me, I’m tall, depends on chair height). Typically tweeters toward the center, keeping their narrow distribution more toward the center.

you can add something below as needed

btw, toe in. you can keep them ’straight’ for casual listening, toe-in some for 1 centered listener, toe them in more for two listeners, back to straight for wife factor if an issue. consider an appropriate amount of material that permits movement yet allows them to ’feel’ heavy on the shelf which hopefully is solid.

....................................................

’extra power’.

Usually I recommend efficient speakers, horn type the most efficient, (high 90’s, some over 100 db/1w/1m).

specifically to minimize the amount of power needed, especially if tube amp(s) might be desired now or in the future.

efficient speakers keep cost/size/heat down and increase placement options, consider remote beam and visible line of sight.

horn speakers enclosures, especially unvented ones are large, cubic feet determines amount of bass. (your location precludes rear/side/bottom ports, perhaps front port).

smaller, un-ported, usually efficiency drops, and often impedance drops, i.e. 6 ohms nominal, even 4 ohms nominal. there are some great sounding in-efficent/low ohm speakers, soooo to keep your options open for a large space such as yours, I will relate a recent experience:

friend, large space: 29 feet wide, 45 ft long, high ceilings.

JSE Infinite Slope Model II’s, sensitivity 91 I think, fairly easy load.

McIntosh AMP, MA2270, 270 wpc, BIG Meters.

Playing decently loud: typical 2.7 watts used; frequent 27 watts drawn; occasional 200 wpc; and infrequently but repeatedly the Power Guard came on, indicating the amp was preventing clipping exceeding rated 270 wpc.

Of course you can drive any 91 sensitivity with an 80 wpc amp, however, dynamics in content will need more instantaneous power. Size of space, desired volume, music dynamics are all involved.

So ’extra’? More power is not linear. IF I recall correctly: For each +3db in loudness (a perceivable difference) DOUBLE the power is needed. So a 150 wpc seems like a lot more than 80wpc, and yet ....

Restricting yourself to efficient speakers is wise, they get bigger, especially not ported, what is the wife factor for big speakers horizontal on a shelf?

Consider limiting yourself to a stereo amp that can be used MONO, so you could always buy a second one in the future.

 

 

Wilson Tune Tot will sound good / great ...! And your choice of Power Amp ...

since you are at the beginning of your journey, you should ask yourself:

do you want big sound? will you play at high volumes? Bright, forward, detailed? Warm or analytical? Or just sound that moves you? These were all pretentious questions to me a couple years ago and I learned some of the differences. The easy test is, choose some of your favorite music that varies wildly e.g. the Stones vs. a vocalist. You usually get one or the other sound come out awesome from one system, but not both - unless it’s of course a ridiculously good system. Once you find out which awesomeness you are addicted to, it will steer you to the system that plays your music best (and then of course, the feedback loop curse: you will switch listening to what sounds good on your system)

ARC takes the room into consideration. OP, if you have a question just e-mail paradigm support before pulling the trigger, you can also add a sub:

https://anthemarc.com

A pair of Paradigm PW600 active speakers have everything you need to get started.

A small bookshelf speaker is not going to fill your room, it's too big. I recommended large arrays that push a lot of air. Perhaps a Dali Phantom S280 or a Focal 1000 IWLCR Utopia.  

here is just the room correction link:

 

@deertrail7 Paradigm active speakers are much more dynamic than their passive ones., the low frequency extension goes down to 40hz and the ARC room correction and the calibrated mic comes with it. If you add a sub ARC will calibrate it with the speakers too. I use the DTS Play-Fi system throughout the home. You can connect the speakers to your network with either wireless or ethernet. The soundbar has been discontinued. One more thing is you can add speakers to other rooms and have whole house audio using the play-fi app if you want to expand in the future.

@deertrail7 yes, you are right, I thought airplay was a mediocre source. I know little about streaming so I take  it back.

Here is a pretty cool trio: wireless KEF sub, wireless KEF speakers, and a software to figure out the best sound from Lyngdorf. You can accomplish a great sound without a lot of tweaking - if Darko is on his game

 

 

@kota1 

A pair of Paradigm PW600 active speakers have everything you need to get started.

That actually sounds like a really good option for me. I was considering replacing the soundbar in this room as well, so maybe I could just go with the whole Paradigm system. And it would be nice not to have to cut holes in the walls or ceiling. Thanks!

@elliottbnewcombjr 

What height is that shelf? Generally you want your tweeters at seated ear height.

36 inches.

You could start with your all in one amp, and then some smaller inexpensive speakers intended for a second system later. ’Learn’ the room, mess with locations, heights, toe-ins. After gained knowledge (researching ’real’ speakers all the time), then more informed choices can be tried.

Good advice. Moving up gradually in speaker quality I'm sure would be an education in itself.

IF buying an amp first, consider ’extra’ power now IN CASE you might want to try some inefficient speakers (low sensitivity, below 90 db/1w/1m).

What would you consider to be 'extra' power? That's kind of what I thought I was doing by considering the Naim Nova (80 watts per channel) over the Naim Atom (40 watts per channel). Is that "enough?"

@grislybutter 

 

definitely start with low end speakers, if you are streaming via airplay, you will want a room filling sound, from e.g. JBL, PSB or Triangle speakers?

I think you are insinuating that airplay is a low-quality source. I thought that their "lossless" audio format was supposed to be pretty good. Is that not true?

given your space you may not want cables, so go wireless?

I was considering wireless. Everyone seems to like the KEF LS50 Wireless II, and I thought they sounded fine when I listened to them. 

this thread has back to the wall speaker suggestions

Thanks for this. I stumbled on this thread at one point a few weeks ago but had forgotten about it.

@jeffseight 

 

Your 1st system? May I ask your age?

Yes, first system. At least, I haven't had anything anyone would consider an "audiophile" setup. I am 44.

Does music move you?

Very much. That's the impetus behind my desire to invest a not insignificant amount of money in a system that can reproduce music as well as possible given the limitations of the environment. However, I'm getting the overall impression that my environment might be limiting enough that it's maybe not worth it at this time.

 

@bdp24 

Everyone here didn't get the system they now have by going on a forum and asking the participants what to buy. They started with a beginner system, and started the process of learning and upgrading. You have to put in the hard work yourself, or pay an audio consultant to put together a system for you, based on the requirements you give him. Lots of major cities have such hi-fi dealers, look for them.

I can tell from reading some of your posts that you have an incredible amount of knowledge on this subject. But, respectfully, reading and asking questions on an internet forum is, in my mind, part of "putting in the hard work." I'm trying to learn from people that know more than I do--and by the way, I only came here after spending a few hundred hours researching the subject matter. So, again respectfully, I don't think the only options are (1) figure it out entirely by yourself or (2) be totally ignorant and pay a dealer to do it.

@ghdprentice 

Tell us more about your interest in music.

My interest in music is strictly amateur/recreational, although at one point I actually wrote a couple of album reviews for a local magazine. I have no musical ability of my own. So I don't really know how to quantify how much I "love" music (I mean, doesn't everyone?), but I know my enjoyment of it increases with the quality of the reproduction. 

I mean if you want to listen to music… then put your money into converting a small extra extra bedroom or large walk in closet into a listening room.

I hope to be able to do that in a decade or so. Right now, I have four young kids and all of the spaces in our home are spoken for.

FYI. I have been an audiophile for over fifty years and never a Naim advocate. I am sure there are many people that love them… but I find their sound flat and anemic. You definitely need to listen to different systems and identify a sound that captivates you… emotionally… don’t just listen for details… listen for emotional connection.

That's interesting to hear your perspective about Naim and good advice about finding an emotional connection. I always feel uncomfortable walking into dealers and asking to listen to different setups--guess I just need to get over it.

Thanks for your response. 

@russ69 

your budget will buy some really nice multi driver arrays that will push enough air to fill the room

Thank you...that might be the right answer. An A/V company installed something similar with Sonos products in a condo we just remodeled, which also has a large open space to contend with.

 

 

Idem as @kota1 but more expensive , Dynaudio Focus 10 .

Active speakers with Dirac Live room correction.

Add a sub 

Add some room acoustic treatment with the money left.

Your only choice for good sound is a divorce and I don't recommend it in most situations.

simple 'speakers against the wall' search

https://www.google.com/search?q=speakers+intended+for+against+the+wall&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS1025US1025&oq=speakers+intended+for+against+the+wall&aqs=chrome..69i57j33i160j33i299l2.12567j1j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

 

IF buying an amp first, consider ’extra’ power now IN CASE you might want to try some inefficient speakers (low sensitivity, below 90 db/1w/1m).

Real bookcase speakers are no more than 12" deep, have no ports, and can be used horizontally.

I have re-discovered and reconditioned Vintage AR-2ax, 3 way ’real’ bookshelf speakers, 11-1/2" deep 13 high, 24 wide, 10" woofer, with level controls to adjust output of the mid and tweeter relative to the woofer ’in the space’ to get the best frequency balance in any given space.

Originally purchased for nostalgia reason, Intended for garage/shop, sound soooo good I kept them in my office and bought a 2nd pair for the garage/shop.

I have tools, experience, skills to rehab them successfully, not everyone can do that.

compact with 10" is unusual, and level controls few and far between these days. Perhaps make sure your all in one has balance and tone controls.

Others: Modern speakers that offer similar performance and features???

A pair of Paradigm PW600 active speakers have everything you need to get started. They are powered speakers so you don’t need an amp. They have an app so you can stream from many services as soon as you set them up. You can add a CD player or a turntable using the RCA inputs on the back. You can connect a sub if you ant. They have ARC room correction to help them perform better and adapt to your room. PLUS they are 50% off right now, (check the review):

https://www.soundstagexperience.com/index.php/equipment-menu/833-paradigm-pwsoundbar-pw600-loudspeakers-monitor-sub8-subwoofer

 Configured as a stereo pair, the PW 600s sounded outstanding, easily rivaling separate speakers and electronics costing many times their $1198/pair price. 

 

You can build 'virtual' systems on the site here. You could post photos of the room, Copy of floor plan if available or if you can sketch on some grid paper.

here's a link to my virtual systems to give you an idea how they work.

 

top of page it says 'create system'.

Certainly the 24" deep shelf is your best option for larger (deeper) speakers than in bookshelves. Not too deep, some toe-in will be needed.

What height is that shelf? Generally you want your tweeters at seated ear height.

A bit further back than an iso triangle works better for many, so: a few feet from side walls, 18 ft wide room, speakers perhaps 12’ apart, 15’ even18’ back should allow decent l/c/r imaging. against rear wall, probably no real depth imaging.

You could start with your all in one amp, and then some smaller inexpensive speakers intended for a second system later. ’Learn’ the room, mess with locations, heights, toe-ins. After gained knowledge (researching ’real’ speakers all the time), then more informed choices can be tried.

Nothing wrong with a moderately priced set of speakers and better speakers a few years later either. We all have ’moved up’ over the years.

definitely start with low end speakers, if you are streaming via airplay, you will want a room filling sound, from e.g. JBL, PSB or Triangle speakers?

given your space you may not want cables, so go wireless?

this thread has back to the wall speaker suggestions

.

deertrailer,

Your 1st system? May I ask your age?

Does music move you?

 

Curious

Everyone here didn't get the system they now have by going on a forum and asking the participants what to buy. They started with a beginner system, and started the process of learning and upgrading. You have to put in the hard work yourself, or pay an audio consultant to put together a system for you, based on the requirements you give him. Lots of major cities have such hi-fi dealers, look for them.

@deertrail7 

The rule of thumb for starting your speaker setup is using an isosceles triangle. So if you’re listening position is 13 feet from your speakers, your speakers should be 13 feet apart to start with and if you’re listening position is 25 feet from your speakers, the speakers should be 25 feet apart to start with.  Also, most rear ported speakers need to be away from the front wall at least a couple of feet and a few feet from the side walls.

Go in wall. It appears living space/aesthetics are priority.

"I’ll be listening from either 13 feet or 25 feet."

If you’re that far away, $10-15K floorstanders AND a proper setup. Otherwise, why spend the money?

$300 Bestbuy bookshelf speakers can do the deed.

@russ69

+1

You have a set of compromises that will really destroy the sound quality.

 

Tell us more about your interest in music. I mean if you want to listen to music… then put your money into converting a small extra extra bedroom or large walk in closet into a listening room.

‘The venue is critical in the performance of audio equipment. So, for instance, if you want to get the maximum out if $15K I would get a Linn DSM for ~$9K and spend ~$6K on tower speakers. In a small room this or stand mounted speakers with a couple subs could sound spectacular.

FYI. I have been an audiophile for over fifty years and never a Naim advocate. I am sure there are many people that love them… but I find their sound flat and anemic. You definitely need to listen to different systems and identify a sound that captivates you… emotionally… don’t just listen for details… listen for emotional connection.

I’m more than happy to save the money if that’s the case.

I don't shop in that area so I can't help with the details, but your budget will buy some really nice multi driver arrays that will push enough air to fill the room. You should have no budget issues with two arrays and a control amp.  

Thanks, I was sort of wondering if someone would say it’s not worth it. I’m more than happy to save the money if that’s the case. Sorry about the color—I copied and pasted from an email draft and didn’t notice. It doesn’t appear I am allowed to edit.