I have Vandersteen 5A's....I read somewhere at one time that if I decouple the speakers from their spikes on to tile-on-concrete flooring using (maybe Herbies somethings), I would get better sound. Nope....took all the music away...replaced the speakers on the floor. That's just me...
Springs under turntable
I picked up a set of springs for $35 on Amazon. I intended to use them under a preamp but one thing led to another and I tried them under the turntable. Now, this is no mean feat. It’s a Garrard 401 in a 60pound 50mm slate plinth. The spring device is interesting. It’s sold under the Nobsound brand and is made up of two 45mm wide solid billets of aluminum endcaps with recesses to fit up to seven small springs. It’s very well made. You can add or remove springs depending on the weight distribution. I had to do this with a level and it only took a few minutes. They look good. I did not fit them for floor isolation as I have concrete. I played a few tracks before fitting, and played the same tracks after fitting. Improvement in bass definition, speed, air, inner detail, more space around instruments, nicer timbre and color. Pleasant surprise for little money.
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millercarbon, please recall what I said about substrate, the more unyielding the substrate, the higher percentage of the energy will deform the springs. Did you ever bolster the floor, specifically directly under the places where you have springs isolating your speakers? One suggestion is to use the granite laminated to MDF, I haven't tried it, however I suspect laminating MDF (or some pretty hard wood?) to it top and bottom, will change it's tone from ringing significantly. Use the granite under the TT, atop a shelf on your rack with appropriate springs to isolate? Sharing the kenetic energy between multiple absorbers, are you sure you want to do that? |
@noromance I did keep the old springs I had under the 401 for weeks just to see if any change but it really never did, the return to solidity for want of a better word once they were removed was palpable. Some members have rightly said I do not give changes enough of a chance, so this one got a more than adequate trial at the time. Now I do agree with Mahgister that they were likely not compressed enough. With the Nobsound I will be able to adjust that compression rate and should give a better idea of what might work. |
@uberwaltz
Now I do agree with Mahgister that they were likely not compressed enough.That is an issue I have been working through by trial and error. I am new to using springs under my gear/speakers and have been trying to achieve a combination of stability and appropriate compression and stiffness for the best sound, while maintaining as low a profile as possible. The Nobsound devices are nice because they can be easily adjusted to change the stiffness but I am instead using individual larger springs. I had a couple of instances where the springs were slightly over compressed (i.e., hardly any travel remaining) due to the weight of my speakers and I was able to solve the problem by placing an additional adjacent spring. I previously asked this question in a different decoupling thread but did not receive any responses (I believe the same issue likely applies to speakers or turntables): For those of you supporting heavy speakers on springs, do you recommend stiffer or more moderate spring support? In other words, how does the supported combined speaker/stand weight compare to the total available spring loading capacity....something moderate like 50% or something less (i.e., stiffer springs)?In addition to stiffness, I believe the issue may also include a component of compression/travel, which is related to the number of winds. Any experts here? Where is Geoff when you need him? |
Uberwaltz, the 401 is a heavy turntable. To do this even close to right you have to find the center of mass of the table and place three or four springs equidistant from that point. Then you have to get the spring rate low enough to get you under the 3 Hz limit. At best the situation will be wobbly. You could put the springs in cylinders and add heavy oil for damping and the engineering continues. The more stable way to do this is to hang a solid platform with springs. Look carefully at the SME 30/12 turntable. You could replicate this situation without too much difficulty. If you are not into this degree of experimentation you probably should leave things as they are. The MinusK platform although expensive really is the best solution for unsuspended turntables. You just weigh your table and they will send you a platform with the right spring rate. |
Mijo I have been looking at the MinusK but a lot of $$$ The Nobsound are a cheap experiment and as I said if I still cannot make them work to my taste under the 401 I have plenty of other pieces of gear to experiment with...lol It will not be $65 wasted for sure. Noromance 401 is pretty similar ( heavier as he has an aftermarket heavy platter, mine is a standard platter modded for extra weight) and I am sure comparing notes I can get close to what he has achieved so far |
In addition to stiffness, I believe the issue may also include a component of compression/travel, which is related to the number of winds.Correct Mitch. When I bought mine I spent some time going through various spring calculators including coils per inch and wire thickness and wire material (which ALL affect compression ratio!), who knew there was so much involved in the humble spring! |
For those of you supporting heavy speakers on springs, do you recommend stiffer or more moderate spring support? In other words, how does the supported combined speaker/stand weight compare to the total available spring loading capacity....something moderate like 50% or something less (i.e., stiffer springs)?From experience, I would suggest somewhere in the 50% deflection of each spring would be a reasonably safe bet, I know that the tendency is to keep the tweeter (at least) on axis at listening position. The term I use zero stiffness, stiffness or rigidity here couples the speaker to the support, by removing the stiffness (zeroing it) the speaker cabinet should find it's mechanical equilibrium (where it rests when not energised) and if you can gently move a big heavy speaker with just your pinky finger, you have a pretty good starting point for vibration control. The spring rate is weight dependent. Weight / number of springs @ 50% compression. Spring rate is critical, turns is also important, so far I have liked the most, are 3 to 3.5 turns + ground ends on each end of the spring. I deliberately purchase with the diameter at least equal to or greater than the final load height. I found that I like a taller spring, my guess is that small amplitude high frequencies are well sorted with more material to deflect them?? Any experts here? I am not an expert, that was my employer, however I learnt all that I could from him before moving to USA. PM me again, we can go through it together and I'll see if I can get you similar results to MC. |
About 7 years ago I replaced the 4 springs under my modified VPI TNT with 4 handballs. It was a solution that VPI had used on its last TNT version. Great improvement. If I could not integrate them into the TT, as was possible with the TNT, I would build a platform with them them a la Ginko. Only small issue is that they need replacing about every 4-5 years. |
The nobsound makes no negative audible effects under my speakers... But adjustment is all the job and the most important... I think around 45- 50% of compression with an adjustment by ears with 4 or 5 pounds of varying weight or around 4 % of precision near the optimal compression will do the job....It is more refine adjustment and more easier to me to put load on the speakers than removing some springs....And i prefer my speakers damped anyway... |
I’ve been bringing this up for six months now. I have the springs from Amazon for about six months and they do a fine job On my Moab speakers.Another product I found which does an amazing job are these mag-lev feet that I have under my subs. I don’t have them underneath any components and I don’t have a turntable but they probably would do an excellent job there as well. Check these out! https://solidairaudio.com |
Playing the wonderfully recorded 1980 Amtrak Blues - Alberta Hunter. 3D. Can't believe these original ESL57s can sound this astonishing. Previously recessed cymbal work is crystalline. Jan Mc Shann - 1979 Big Apple Bash. Piano is eerie in its realism. Attack and rise time much improved. I do think that bass lines are pushed back a little more than I'd like. I'll try increasing VTF from 1.65 to 1.8 and see if it brings it back up. |
Another song. McShann playing Ellington’s Blue Feeling. Trumpet in the room. Plucked bass and drumkit syncopation I’ve never heard before in such detail. Whole system seems free of sluggishness. A veil removed. Aldous Harding - Party. Nothing wrong with bass here. Overhang gone. Clean. Another revelation. The bass isn't pushed back. It IS back. The drumkit is at the back of the soundstage. It's never been so obvious before. |
SolidAirAudio: We have done more scientific tests, which show a slight load dependant resonance, but this is not very helpful as it will vary with units with different weights. It does explain why a second layer of feet works so well though, as with a different loading, Anyone up to try a McDouble? 😆 Following your lead. |
@derekw_hawaii - has anyone done any testing with dual-pitch compression springs? It's a discussion I've had with another user of spring isolation, and it's another way to deal with the issue with broader frequency isolation. I have seen the SoildAirAudio and some of their products appear to be very similar to Solid-tech out of Sweden. |
@noromance- You would need 7 units to handle such a load which might not be practical besides it's my experience that optimal performance comes from using as less such units as possible. So less is better... Nobsound springs are relatively stiffer and might work well for such heavier loads and as you pointed out they are working very well for you. You should be all set. Enjoy the music. Thanks. |
noromance, you need to look at the Solid Tech Rack of Silence 1 Reference. It will handle 40 kg https://www.solid-tech.net/silence/?SingleProduct=28 |
Soild-tech are one of the pioneers (1995), I don't believe they copied anyone. Years ago when we were searching for isolation devices for loudspeakers, Solid-tech of Sweden and Townshend of UK (1987) were the main two to be found on the internet. Solid-tech doesn't appear to use similar technology or use of springs in the same manner Townshend does? I see many knock-offs now coming from newcomers though. |
Amplifiers, speakers, and subs are on springs here now for a nice sonic improvement. If you want an alternate to Nobsound, try simply purchasing loose springs. By purchasing a few extra, I was able to add springs in strategic locations when needed to adjust the overall support. For example, under each amp I have springs in the four corners plus one directly beneath the large transformer. I also found you can place thin heat shrink around the springs and overlap on top and bottom to avoid scratching floors and the bottoms of your equipment....this is similar to what is shown on the Townshend site for their pods. The supplier linked below is fast, relatively inexpensive, and has a nice search tool you can use to enter your spring parameters. https://www.centuryspring.com/catalog/compression-regular?page=search&cid=compression-regular |
Great stuff from noromance and others; precisely the kind of thing this forum is supposed to be about, in substance and in style. Thanks. My sole experience with springs has been the removal of the spring suspension in my previously owned VPI HW19 MK4 (TNT6, currently). My reasoning for that experiment was the following: Most of our turntables rest on some sort of “isolation“ platform or device(s) which in turn rests on a rack/cabinet or wall shelf. Due to issues we all know about, mostly issues of resonance/energy transfer, whatever the table sits on becomes, in effect, part of the turntable. In the case of the HW19, four large(ish) springs, one in each corner of the “box”, suspend the metal top plate to which are secured the bearing/platter and tone arm. To my way of thinking, fundamentally, the box (plinth) acts no differently and serves the same purpose as do most of the isolation platforms or devices that we typically place under our turntables. In this situation the removal of the four springs and their substitution with four rigid upward pointing Tiptoes (and later, the even better BDR cones) yielded very significant improvements in clarity, refinement, bass extension and subjective sense of speed. By comparison, the stock spring suspension always resulted in a more diffuse sound which was very midrange centric with curtailed bass extension and a somewhat bloated lower mid/ upper bass range. Most obvious was a band of unnatural brightness in the upper midrange that completely disappeared when the springs were removed. As noromance experienced at first with the Nobsound devices: “reduced bass and somewhat thinner sound”. The differences were not subtle and the springs were abandoned. I bring all this up not to dispute any of the findings of improvement by those using these devices nor to make any general claims about the use of springs or not; quite the contrary. Mine was just one experience with a very different type of spring device. However, when I think of how many HW19’s are out there and how often it is recommended that the springs be removed, it seems to me that trying these devices in place of the stock springs is a no brainer given their cost. If memory serves, the dimensions of these things are just about perfect for this application. I will be ordering some for use under my electronics. Thanks, noromance! |
@noromance , www.partsconnexion.com Every now and then Chris has some SolidTech stuff on sale. Worth a look if you're interested. |
@noromance I used leftover Nobs springs directly to good effect.Those Nobsound springs are quite small, aren’t they? If you play with the search tool on the Century Spring site, you can find larger diameter springs that may suit your needs, which should improve stability. The springs I used under my subs are 1.75 inches in diameter and the springs under my main speakers are 1.625 inches in diameter. I am looking at their S-3031 springs for my general electronics, which range from about 20 to 30 pounds each in total weight. OD of those springs is almost 1.3 inches so they should be quite stable. The free length is 1.0 inches and compression rate is 20#/inch so compressed at 5 pounds they would be 3/4 inch long in service. They are good for a maximum of 12 pounds each. This seems to offer a good, wide range size for my electronics, which are also somewhat mass loaded so total weight per spring will probably range from about 6 to 8 pounds. Unit price of the stainless steel S-3031 is $5.63 each so in the audiophile world that is a relatively benign $22-$28 per component. In comparison, Herbie’s Tenderfeet are $14 each. If you order, make sure you get closed/ground ends. |
This concept of "zero stiffness" is interesting. I have been reading the paper that was cited above. It seems in fact to be a theoretical ideal rather than a truly attainable state. But that's OK as a guide. From my experience with turntable supports, the Minus K comes closest to zero stiffness. If you can achieve what the Minus K achieves using only inexpensive commercially available springs or modified springs, you are a very patient person. I would still have more than reservations about seating a speaker on a support that had zero stiffness, especially in the horizontal plane. |
