Springs under turntable

I am waiting for someone to advocate some sort of springs for one's listening seat.  After all, if all the equipment is bouncing around, shouldn't the listener be moving in tune?
Indranilson, I would not be too anal about perfect level for your turntable, although it should be very close to level if not perfectly so.  But what is more important, if you are going to spring load it, is that the spring action moves the table in the vertical direction with perfect symmetry or near to it.  You don't want an external disturbance to cause one end or corner of the table to move more than any other.  In the extreme case, this could provoke a mechanical oscillation. Could also cause problems with tracking the LP.

@lewm - I won't advocate for springs under the seat, with the speakers and electronics isolated correctly, there's absolutely no need. However nice padding to make it comfortable for hours of listening pleasure, ah yeah, I fully advocate for that!

Enjoy the tunes :-)

I don't use a sprung turntable, but in the days I had a Linn....the springs should be wound in different directions to cancel each other's bounce.

Yes Uberwaltz, you are right but the resonance frequency of the suspended units is so low. In Boston after the Big Dig a concrete paneled ceiling in one of the tunnels broke and collapsed on a car killing I think it was two people. Traffic though the tunnel created very low frequency rumble exciting the panels cracking them.
Again, they are so heavy there is not near enough energy produced by even the largest system to get the concrete "ringing"
That would apply to apartment buildings, office buildings and skyscrapers. Not to mention you can't play a system very loud in those buildings without pissing someone off.
Most of us I would assume (maybe I'm wrong) have reinforced concrete slabs sitting on compressed stone dust, a wonderful floor for a Media room. 

I think you just described my room Mijo, lol.

And which is why despite the too large amounts of glass it still works pretty well for me as my music room.

I would still think there maybe some slight differences but not sure how  you would start to prove it.

Lewm, exactly right. The springs have to have the exact same rate and they have to be located exactly the same distance from the center of mass. Unfortunately, this is not so easy to find without harming the turntable. The result is that is is extremely difficult to get this right at a frequency below 3 Hz. It is far easier to create an unstable system than a stable one. INHO if you want a suspended turntable, and I believe everyone does even if they don't know it, buy a well engineered suspended turntable or a MinusK platform. This of course eliminates the Linn LP12:)

I made a big mistake. It is not a resonance frequency I was talking about above but the energy or power required to move the concrete. If you could pluck the cables holding up those concrete slabs the frequency would be very high because the cables are stretched tight and they are not very long. In buildings I believe the concrete is going to be placed on steel girders. The resonance frequency of the floor would be determined by the weight of the floors and the flex of the steel girders. The only thing I could hear when I lived in a 19 story apartment building was a low frequency boom when someone upstarts jumped down on the floor. A person weighting around 150 lb is going to put way more energy into the floor than any HiFi could. I had RH Labs subwoofers at the time and the only complainers were my next door neighbors. Nobody up or down ever complained.

Uberwaltz, you measure it!  Check out this https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-omnimic-v2-acoustic-measurement-system--390-792. My room control system essentially does the same thing. It measures each individual speaker. The frequency response above 10 kHz is significantly different in my right ESL than in the Left one. The only difference is the right one has a window in front of it on the side wall. The system corrected it but beforehand the window was smearing the image.
To produce the best image the frequency response of both speakers has to be identical or the image will smear to the side that is louder at any given frequency. There are always differences from one speaker to another of the same type not to mention that the speakers occupy different positions in the room. If you measure your system you will be amazed if not terrified at the variations in frequency response particularly below 100 Hz. The curve will look like a profile of the alps. 
It is a lot of fun to measure other people's system and show them how bad things are. 

So, Uberwaltz, do not downplay those windows. More than likely they are having a significant effect on the sound. But, it is hard to predict how. If you want to know measure it. But if you are not planning to get a room control unit don't bother. Ignorance is bliss. 

Mijo
I KNOW the windows are having a huge effect, hence the semi treatments to all of them.
Wood blinds on all of the side and back windows usually at 2/3 closed position.
Recent addition of heavy blackout curtains behind my gear and speakers on the large glass doors that open into the room, that had an even bigger impact than I expected.
But no I have no intention of getting any type of room control unit for this room atm.
I can live with ignorance is bliss because right now my listening experience is pure bliss!
Could it be better?
I am positive it can but small steps.

Every electronically-based room equalizer that I have ever heard does far more damage to the sound than it does good for the sound. So I agree with your strategy of altering the room, rather than the signal to give you your desired response at your listening seat.

Traffic though the tunnel created very low frequency rumble exciting the panels cracking them.

The failure was in the epoxy holding the panels. They didn't crack due to rumble. 

Every electronically-based room equalizer that I have ever heard does far more damage to the sound than it does good for the sound. So I agree with your strategy of altering the room, rather than the signal to give you your desired response at your listening seat.

Tonal timbre accuracy is too complex to be measured by computer program for sound....It takes ears to correct the room...

I correct mine with an astounding success on all counts by ears on a many months of experiments listenings, with TONAL TIMBRE accuracy, not frequencies of the bass... Now my bass are so intense and clear you will not believe what i take to reach that....(7 inches driver i hear with my stomach)

The important point, no ready made formula correcting frequencies can beat your ears to establish the best room possible for perception of timbre....

The same room is different for different ears, then also the fact that it must be FOR YOUR EARS that you work a room treatment not for a program or for another person.... 

All people speaking about bass are beside the point for me....

I dont need a woofer nor bass traps....Not even a program...

All treatment and controls cost peanuts....

:)

« The room is the third ear »-Groucho Marx

Lewm, you have no idea what you are missing. The really good units like My TacT and the Trinnov Amethyst do all their processing at 192 hz 48 bit
It is totally transparent. The power of these units is amazing. You not only get automated room control ( they automatically generate filters that bring each speaker individually to flat) but an incredible subwoofer crossover and bass management. I can independently change the frequency and slope of either the high pass or low pass filter on the fly. I can use slopes up to 10th order. I have dynamic loudness compensation. It changes its corrective slopes automatically with volume. The balance between bass treble and mid range stays exactly the same regardless of volume. I can program filters to adjust frequency response any way I want with 0.5 Hz precision. I can delay individual speakers so the the sound from each hits your ears at exactly the same time. Using this capability I can put the sweet spot anywhere in the room! This capability also matches the subwoofers in phase and time to the satellites. I can hold 9 different frequency response curves in memory and I can switch back and forth on the fly. As an example one has the BBC or Gundry dip programmed in so if things get harsh I activate that curve. All the programming is done on a PC and all the filters and curves are displayed in graph form. Everything that this unit does is done without any distortion. It is invisible. 
Talking about unbelievable differences, if I switch the system to bypass my wife will even ask me what happened. 
Once you use something like this you never look back. Back is the stone age. If you think you do not need it get a calibrated microphone and measurement program and check your system out. 

Yep. I do know what I am missing, and I don't miss it.Even when electronic manipulation of the system response is "transparent" (and I will believe that when I hear it), the subjective impression of the listeners I have been around is that they are not pleased with the SQ, compared to using no equalization on the very same system in the very same room.  Measurements do not coincide with the sense of verisimilitude that is after all what we are all ultimately seeking. I have attended several such demonstrations, and the net impression of other listeners and me is turn off the EQ. On the other hand, in your particular room with your particular equipment, etc, perhaps the results are different; I can hardly say otherwise. You can go your way, and I will go mine.  It would behoove you to recognize more often that you are expressing your opinion based on your own experiences, rather than to speak as if you are presenting the gospel.  This is not to say I don't advocate and implement room tuning to get the SQ I am after.  But I am sure that my room that satisfies me would not measure perfectly flat across the audible spectrum.

@mijostyn- What you stated is exactly the issue that I am facing with springs and it is true for any electronics as it is true for a turntable. For any component, if you want to get the resonance frequency to somewhere below 3 cycles then you are working with a. softer springs in general, b. they are loaded to the max around 97-98% of the spring capacity, c. each spring is carrying the same load. Satisfying these conditions underneath any load let alone a heavy amplifier or a very fastidious turntable is going to be extremely difficult. That's why I keep looking for a tool which gives the CG location of a given component and/or something when attached to a spring shows the load that it's carrying.
Without those tools/guidelines embedded in the product even Minus K or Stacore platforms are not going to be very effective....
Beside this load adjustment issue you have to deal with the type of the platform that hosts the component. You need to make sure that it doesn't adversely impact the tonal balance.
It is because of these issues none of the products or ideas on the isolation currently available in the market provide a plug and play solution, in my opinion....
Thanks.

@lewm   They're way ahead of you!

https://www.bidsquare.com/online-auctions/skinner/studio-brushed-steel-rocking-chair-1416477

twoleftears, 800 volts and 250 amps and you should be in great shape.

Lewm, you and none of those other people obviously have not heard a system like this. I would love to have you over for a quick demonstration and don't forget I am a fellow ESL lover. I am talking everything from Beethoven's early string quartets to Nine Inch Nails. If you think your system images now, I can make it image a lot better. If you think you have decent bass now, I can make Ron Carter materialize in your listening room. Any system you have heard was either set up incorrectly or it was using a sub standard unit without the necessary processing speed or resolution.  

Ron Carter is already in my room.... Imaging is so good the sound exist independantly of the speakers....

And "liveliness" is a quality in acoustic linked to among many factors with the reverberation time and synchronisation and participate among at least 5 others characteristics to define the mysterious fact of "timbre" in acoustic...

I dont know if a computer program can modify the reverberation time in a specific room with a specific varied content ....Playing with frequencies he can compensate to a certain degree but using it positively for a set of ears in particular in the perception of timbre, i think that it cannot....

The " liveliness" of my sound result from my playing and work among other factors with this reverberation timing....The guide was my ears.....Ordinary ears by the way.... The myth of bat ears is a bad joke by some to discredit the use of our "biased" ears in audio, ears with which i listen to music without being able to de-biased them to this day...I know that computer formulas can make the room perfect for non biased and perfect ears tough....But not for mine Alas! :)

If someone designed a big void room especially and only for music and for a crowd, a set of law applies very well and straightforwardly...

If someone want to accomodate a small Room with an already disparate acoustical content (furnitures, coofins, books etc) for a pair of specific ears, using these biased ears is for me necessary.....Laws under the guise of computer algorithm will lack something and will miss some fact to work with like reverberation time for a particular set of ears(mine) in a small ordinary room and not for the crowd in a big musical hall....Reverberation time for example cannot play the same role in these 2 different locations....

Liveliness is not reducible to transparency for example....

By the way i am not a scientist, only a nut without money who create his own heaven by homemade device only.....

I succeed to my satisfaction..... :)

indranilsen, The MinusK platform is not that hard to use. You move the turntable around on it until each corner of the platform compresses the same distance. It takes about 15 minutes to get it right. When you order the platform it is made for the specific weight of your turntable. You do not have to deal with spring rates at all. 
My feeling on the subject is straight forward. I will not use a turntable that is not isolated. I would rather buy a well engineered turntable, suspension built in than have to mess around with MinusK platforms and such. There are many excellent suspended turntables from the Sota Sapphire all the way to the Dohmann Helix and Air Force Tables. I think Thorens makes a few at a lower price point. A good suspended table should be immune to everything up to an elephant stepping on it. I can bang the side of my Sota with a hammer and it will not skip and you won't even hear it through
the system. 

mijostyn

Lewm, you and none of those other people obviously have not heard a system like this.

Impressive. Do you also read tea leaves, tarot cards and perform remote viewing?

... A good suspended table should be immune to everything up to an elephant stepping on it ...

I'm inclined to mostly agree. And yet, in another thread, you claimed this:

If I delete the subsonic filter from the program it ia mass pandemonium. It looks like the drivers want to jump right out of the cabinet. It is just inherent in vinyl if you have a good system capable of reproducing deep bass.

As I've mentioned, and as many have demonstrated, such a problem is not at all inherent in LP playback.

To get back to the actual subject of this thread......

I experimented a little more with the pods under my 401 as it was still a little off balance to my eyes.

Now have 3 springs in left rear and 2 springs in the other 3 corners.
Had to go back to 4 pods as where the rear center needed to be was right where the motor cutout is.

Bass is still nice and tight and very detailed all round.

Cleeds, yes I read tea leaves but most importantly systems like mine are obviously very rare at this point. Few understand the basic issues involved so I am left waving the flag by myself. Which is ok by me. Anyone can ridicule me all they want. Until they have lived with a system like mine they have no idea. Now, people are always bragging about how great their systems are. La De Da. I could give two hoots about what people think about me or my system. I am only trying to give our members an idea about what is possible. But I'll also have to live with the fact that most people still think the earth is flat

Now cleeds, you seem to be confusing two issues. Good suspended turntables are immune to external factors. Like I said I can hit my turntable with a hammer with no ill effect as long as I don't hit it hard enough to cause a dent. Do not confuse this with the low frequency information that is on the disc in the form of warps and surface irregularities which a good system will try to reproduce blindly. If you have a system like mine which is dead flat at the listening position down to 18 Hz with 2000 watts driving each of four subwoofer drivers this spurious information will loosen the fillings in your teeth before it destroys your drivers. Blocking this information is I would think obviously critical in this situation. The only way this can be done without affecting the audio range is with a steep digital filter which I am fortunate enough to be able to program in my system. I hope this explained it adequately.

Mike

Mahgister, Ron Carter is not in your room. You have no where near the power and the wrong kind of loudspeakers to image a full size acoustic bass. The best you can do is come up with a miniature version. But, do not feel bad. That is the best most systems can do. If you want to head in the right direction buy a pair of Magneplanar 3.7i's and the biggest amp you can afford over 200 watts/ch.

@mijostyn Any chance of putting up some photos in Virtual Systems? It's time.

Mahgister, Ron Carter is not in your room. You have no where near the power and the wrong kind of loudspeakers to image a full size acoustic bass. The best you can do is come up with a miniature version.

I cannot argue against what you just said.... Probably true if i compare my modest system to yours...

But the point is for me that does not sound miniature Ron Carter but like the real thing... I dont doubt that compared to your system it is the miniature version but to me that does not sound so drastically far off of what is yours...

By the way in my small room my amplifier is very good and the Mission speakers fills all the room....

The room is more important than the number of watts and in my small room big Magnepans will not do anything better because they need space to breathe....

Room controls is more important than any amplifier and more important than the speakers.... I am sure you know already that....You know already what room controls reveal....

But Room controls can be made by any humble ears trust me .... The only impediment is the amount of time it will take in months (2 years for me to figure it out)...

I cannot afford your computerized control and i dont feel the need for it....I dont doubt that it can be very useful at all....But most people would never think or be able to afford one.... And i cannot stay silent and i must say my experience and truth also.... So some need computerized room control and it is useful for sure, but ALL people, not only the happy few, need a "kind" of room control....An ears created one or a computerized one.... I dont underestimated your computer at all , but dont underestimate the ears workings with time....

A system is completed when you listen the music no more the sound, at any price.....I will listen "miniature" life real version of Ron Carter this evening ..... :)

It is not so much me that will be astonished by your top system,( i dont doubt it is better than mine at all) it is you who will be astonished by the sound of a low cost system in a room like the lair of a mad scientist ..... :)

My price/ quality S.Q. is very good.....Impossible to beat in fact, i think really so..... :)

My system cost around 500 dollars, dac+amplifier+speakers.... A few times more for the cost of the things necessary for my homemade devices....

Anybody can afford Hi-fi, it is my experience and conclusion of my experiments.... Controls of the 3 embeddings gives H-Fi experience, a"miniature" Hi-Fi experience but a real one..... :)

My best to you and thanks for your patience with me....

Hello,
It appears that this thread has gradually started moving away from the central discussion point, isolation... In order to get it back to the track let me solicit feedback on another aspect related to the vibration isolation. After putting springs, inner tube, magnet or what have you in that space how do you measure the effectiveness of the tool beside listening? How do you know that it is isolating in the range of 3-4 cycles and there is no more room to improve? I tried using a few free andriod apps measuring vibration but they don't seem to be accurate. Curious to know about your thoughts/experience on this.
Thanks.

indranilsen, 3 Hz is slow enough you can just count. In poorly dampened systems the turntable will keep bouncing for a while. If it does not bounce that would mean the frequency is way too high.

mijostyn

Cleeds, yes I read tea leaves but most importantly systems like mine are obviously very rare at this point ...

I'm not sure your system is that rare - I've seen lots of systems like yours that included the flapping woofers that you think is inherent to LP playback. But if you're happy with your system, that's all that counts.

Just to be fair to equalisation control here, our sadly departed Al was a proponent of the same and used some form of DBX control and he was very satisfied with it.
I do not remember the exact details of what he used but he did post about it numerous times.
So I would never say never and write it off entirely, just that at this time it is not something I will be pursuing.

You see cleeds, you have no idea either. Of course I am assuming wrongly or rightly, that all of you know what you are listening to. And cleeds, if there is no music by subwoofer cones are frozen dead.

Uberwaltz, if you could hear a proper system it would be the first thing you would be pursuing. 

Radomir Bozevic was a genius. His problem and downfall was that he thought everyone else was up to his level of thinking. He direct marketed his equipment, his instruction manuals were awful and he was not able to provide adequate phone in support although he tried. The TacT 2.2x and it's theater version he TCS remain the most powerful DSP preamplifiers on the market. The only units that are close are those made by Trinnov.
Companies like Anthem and DEQX make units that are relatively easy to use but not near as powerful. They are however very useful in mid Fi situations. In Top systems only TacT and Trinnov need apply at least for the time being. I will take photos of the program in operation to try and give everyone an idea of what is going on. 

Mijo, Re your response to Indra, how would you delivered energy to the equipment on an isolation device such that you could then “count” it’s resulting oscillations? Seems to me you’d want to replicate the natural state where hitting the TT with a hammer is irrelevant.

Uberwaltz, if you could hear a proper system it would be the first thing you would be pursuing.

Mijo
That is right where you lose my attention.
The implications of that statement are that neither myself or anybody else here has a "proper system".
And to put it bluntly, I find that insulting and degrading.

Have a nice day.

In the mean while, isolating your turntable will improve your signal to noise ratio and  if properly done protect it from nuisance issues like foot fall skipping. If your turntable is on a solid rack planted on a concrete floor the improvement will be less obvious. For those with wood joist floor construction a suspended turntable is the only way to go. 

UBERWALTZ, that was not at all what I was saying!!! I was saying a proper DSP system. I was not reflecting at all on anyone else system in any way shape or form so please calm down.

 The absolute finest systems have flaws directed signal processing can correct. Even Michael Fremer admits that processing done at          192/24 or faster is invisible. The central possessor in the Tact operates at 192/48. There are processors now that operate even faster. The Trinnov operates in 64 bits which will give it the power to correct problems more severe than even the TacT can handle. These processors do not excuse you from proper room and system setup. All that has to be done in conjunction. In the very best systems you would think the tolerances would be much higher and thus the speaker's outputs would be closer to identical and given close attention to room symmetry the advantage of a processor would diminish at least until you tried to add subwoofers. Without this type of capability you would not be able to make bad recordings more listenable and you would have no way of dealing with loudness issues other than playing the recording at the right volume. 

My apologies to the OP for a diversion to his topic. Let’s try to get back to that

Tomic
I agree and have tried to direct it back to springs under turntable a few times, most recent was about 15 posts back last night.
But it keeps getting buried by unrelated topics.

Congratulations uberwaltz, seems you're making promising advances mate. Keep us posted.

Indranil, have you tried the rubber bands thing we discussed?
If it works, then yeah I would seriously consider the uprated springs. I was also thinking, have you tried a little mass of something dense to level the whole suspended mass by moving it on the outer rim of the shelf?

Uberwaltz, if you put the resonance frequency anywhere within the range of 20 to 150 Hz you are likely to make a change in the way you perceive bass. If everything else is set up correctly and of reasonable quality it is hard to believe that would make an improvement in overall balance or "tightness." If the resonance frequency of the suspension is down where a whole bunch of turntable designers think it belongs it should not change the tonal quality of the music but rather improve signal to noise ratio and and response to physical insults. The main purpose of a suspension is to limit interaction with the environment. 

mijostyn, seems like he's got it :-)

Lewm, You put a record on the turntable with any record weight type device you use then press the turntable down evenly to stretch or compress the springs equally then let go and count. 3 hz is very slow and should be fairly easy to count. If the turntable bounces so fast you can't count it then you need to use springs with a lower rate or add mass to the turntable.
When I hit my Sota with a hammer I am not hitting the suspended part of the turntable. That is inside the plinth. If I abruptly jerk the outside of the turntable (moving it say 1/4") the suspended section will start bouncing at 3 Hz. The tonearm will not skip. If I jerk it hard enough to bottom out the suspension in any direction then the tonearm will skip in a major way.

@rixthetric- Yes I tried using rubber band on the footer which was at the top point in a triangular configuration to increase the spring rate. This indeed help me with balancing the turntable better w/o hitting the bottom but it didn’t resolve the footfall issue. In fact adding spring rate led to more frequent bouncing of the spring as I anticipated and that was counterproductive when isolating vibrations in the sub sonic domain...
@mijostyn- None of the footers including Solid Tech as I experienced could bring the natural frequency down to 3hz. I initially thought that these footers were isolating footfalls but I was wrong. I had a low pass filter on the Luxman phono pre amplifier which was turned on by mistake... When the flipped the switch back to no filter the woofers started moving...

Hello,
I was thinking of sharing the spreadsheet that I put together to design a spring with a targeted natural frequency with this group. You might already be doing it but just thought of sharing...

Item- Clearaudio Turntable

Total Load (3 Springs) = 23.79 lbs

Item No (Century Spring)-S942

Spring Rate (Lbs/Inch) = 2.75

Spring Rate (N/M) (k)= 612.94

Spring Outer Dia = 1.39 inch

Spring Wire Dia = 0.07 inch

Spring Total Coil = 5.75

Spring Free Length = 2.75 inch

Spring solid Height = 0.40 inch

Load (m)= 7.93 lbs

Spring height at the load 7.93 lbs = 0.48 inch

Spring Natural Frequency = 2.077 hz by using the below formula

Formula = 1/(2*Pi)*SqRt(k/m)

Excel Formula = =((0.5*(1/PI()))*SQRT(k/(CONVERT(m,”lbm","g")/1000)))

Another point that I wanted to highlight here is the importance of load and spring rate to get a spring natural frequency, something like 3hz. In this example, I needed to load each of the three springs to a compressed height of 0.48 inch leaving only (0.48-0.40) = 0.8 inch from the base to get a natural frequency of 2.1 hz. This also shows the degree of difficulty in arranging these springs under the turntable such that each one has a compressed height of only 0.8 inch from the base platform, something @mijostyn has pointed out earlier. 

Apologies for dumping a lot of numbers here but I thought this might be interesting to this audience.

Thanks.

Nice work Indranilsen, That is about as far as the Sota springs will compress before the chassis hits its stop. Remember the Sota subchassis hangs from its springs. This is the best picture I could find of it
https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/vinyl/turntables/sota-nova-turntable/.
If you hung a platform with springs you could put your turntable on it. If the springs themselves were hung from a threaded rod you could adjust them for turntable level and any mass configuration of the turntable.

This is why I use Delmonte Mandarin orange slices in water, in small cans, as my turntable isolation devices. I use three of them to support a slate slab containing a turntable chassis, either Denon DP80 or Lenco. I support the weight of the slate on the outer rim of the unopened can, and I support the base of the can at its center using a black diamond racing cone, away from the outer rim, so the outer rim never touches the shelf. The springiness comes from the flexing of the top of the can inside its stable outer structure. Someone gave me the black diamond racing cones, and I paid two dollars each for the cans of mandarin orange slices in water.

Mijo, I owned a Star Sapphire for 10 years, and I’ve had some experience with a Cosmos too. Based on my memory of these products only, I would have thought that the spring rate is certainly a bit higher than 3 Hz. In fact, I am now remembering that there was a modification to the springs that was performed by many owners, so as to reduce the spring rate. I can’t remember, but it had something to do with shimming the springs. Do you know anything about that?

Lewm, not at all but, people do funny things. Reducing the spring rate would be tough. You would have to replace all four springs with springs exactly the same size and length under tension. Some people may have added damping to the springs by stuffing them with foam. If you look at the link in my last post in the middle of that article is a plexiglass model of a Sota. The springs are hung from the top plate. Shims would just lower the sub chassis dropping the plater and tonearm relative to the motor.

Anyway, my resonance frequency is low enough that I can count it. With a record on it will take 7 bounces before it stops and I would have to say that it takes about 2 seconds but I have not tried to time it accurately. The idea is to get it below record warp frequency so they do not interact. Tonearm above, turntable below. I can play a severely warped record without difficulty.

The Sota's are not easy turntables to take apart and I would not want to risk damaging the wooden plinth.  IMHE the suspensions are tuned just fine as nothing in a normal environment bothers them. I have never felt the need to take one apart which is unusual for a guy who took his Divas apart to install new ribbons. 

Delmonte? During WW2 my deceased uncle made a fortune packing fruit which he sold to the military. That company was called the East Indies Fruit Packing Company. You know that company now as Delmonte. In the late 60's my uncle retired from his position as CEO and handed the Baton to his nephew, the nastiest SOB I have ever met. I banned Delmonte products until he passed. They do have the best Pineapples. In the mean while my uncle took his fortune and opened up Flagler Dog Track in Miami, FL and made another fortune. He gave at least 75% of it away mostly to educational institutions and Israel. In 1974 he started getting chest pains. His cardiologist begged him to go to the hospital. Instead,  he flew to LA for a meeting. At the end of the meeting he stood up and died on the spot. Age 60. I would think the spring rate of a Delmonte mandarin orange can would be just a little high:)

I think u mean .08”