Speakers as the principle component/other components are servants

What do you mean, "one day"?

"Had you told us back in 1965, folks would be walking around with telephones, sending pics/videos,,we'd all laugh you at your face as scifi fantasy."

I was reading Philip K. Dick in 1965. Nothing in the subsequent 56 years has surprised me.

In any/every scientific fields, the new  ideas are always embraced , so long as they are proven to be of superior value vs the old.
Not saying new is always the better. 
The new ought to be compared and tested against the old. 
Thing is  the really true *old tech*  = the original speakers, actually had no xovers, Xovers were invented by a   a  industry  whose objective was to make mass produced, commercialized, comsumerized, **Loud-speakers*
It was all about the money factor.
There was no way the labs could make mass produced Field Coils, or all alnico magnet speakers.
Speakers were developed around the 
 Labor/material = cost factor = The Profit factor.  
Speakers with basic magnets /paper cones, a  few cheap xover parts, some composite board veneer. Assembly line production  . Add in a  burgeoning   baby boomer gen now comming into  their own, with credit cards. The muisc industry was taking off, enticing the fans to want nice home stereos.
There was money to be made. Just advertise and they'll buy, if not put the speakers on sale, **wow I just got a  great deal*.

Jensen has some FC's and  Magnovox/Zeinth has console stereos with some nice alnico magnets, 

But with R*R hitting the charts,  the fans were not so much interested in fidelity, only *nice sounding speakers*, 
We had no idea what fidelity really was.
The fidelity of the FC's of the 1920's was longgg gone, although as I say,  Jensen attempted to stay faithful to that original true fidelity design. 
But it was not to last.
Low cost drivers, cheap xover parts,, all made the higher sens speakers less than a novelty. 
Remember the speakers from the late 1970's...,,, most were just boom box LOUD speakers. 
The acoustic Research and the Philps 3 way's called 475's (I  bought the 375's 2 ways, as i did not want the harsh midrange, *bark*)  These 2 were probably the best of the whole pack of LOUD-speakers.
The dome tweeter in the Philips, was one heck of  a   live sounding tweeter. My tech geek swears by that tweeter to this day. 
But I moved on to the Seas, Millennium which beats out the Philips by alot.
Point is, speaker technology whether for good or bad, is always moving reforming, remolding to what the public demands and/or can afford.
As long as the new fails to be recognized, this holds up funds flowing into this research to take the new technology even further. 

Not really sure if these new wide band can go futher.
Seems to me they have reach the ultimate reaches of this craftmanship. 

These masters of speaker design have done their work

Its only left to us to  inquire and test their results vs our xover  speakers.
Like old friends, they have served us well,.  maybe its time to say goodbye. 
I did., its really not so hard to do, Once you actually heard a  higher sensitivty speaker
Not so difficult at all. 
What a  relief when i dumped the brand new Millennium  tweets ina  Ebay sale 2 hour ad SOLD, $300 FREE SHIP, Paid $700. 
What a  relief those things are gone, 
the worlds best sounding dome tweeter, history.... at a  miserable 87 db. 
Been there Done that. 
20 yrs of your horrible wet blanket  voice. 

Adious amigo. 

I was reading Philip K. Dick in 1965. Nothing in the subsequent 56 years has surprised me.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Well then, we should not at all be surprised at how  consumerism/commercialism has also  penetrated and mesmerized the general  audiophile community going on now some 50 years, that xover designs with their miserably low sensitivity  are quite acceptable as **high fidelity*, We've been scammed, frauded out our   hard earned  audio budget's not being aware we;'ve been drinking their snakeoil.

Nothing should surprise us about so called *modern man* and his un-reflective decision making processes. 

While I don't dispute that speakers-- and the right choice to match one's particular taste and complement of components and the room acoustics-- is of primary importance, The choice of amplifier has a HUGE impact on the sound.  I have been surprise by how much certain amplifiers seem to elevate the quality of almost every speaker that is attached to that amp.  No doubt it has to do with my particular taste, but, it is amazing to me that certain amplifiers will almost always sound good to me with a wide variety of speakers.  For me, it is low-powered pushpull 6L6 amps that do the trick (particularly Western Electric 124-type amps).  

Likewise, there are certain speakers that seem to be "magically" transformed when coupled to the "right" amp.  I have heard speakers that I did not particularly like, become  dramatically better sounding when a particular amp replaced another amp of good reputation; synergy is obviously a big factor.  I would relegate amp choice to a minor role--to me, the right amp is WAY up there in importance.  

The choice of amplifier has a HUGE impact on the sound

Power tube = power tube
I've  heard EL34 vs 88 vs 120's, So close as to make it pointless. 
The most power a  tube amp needs to drive new wide  band m  state of the art super  high fidelity is , maybe 40 watts. 
ss amps do not qualify to match the new wide band, Sadly they will not work with wide band. But all in all, I'd guess the EL34 is the champion of all PP tubes. 
But as i say, each does have  a  slight nuance over another, Now here its a matter of musical genre and personal preference, Want more bass, go KT120, want a  balance go KT88 want super sweet midrange, go EL34, Each his own. But in speakers, there is only 1 standard , set by the 1920's engineers with Field Coils, 
All speakers today are judged by this midrange. 
Now I did not say highs/bass. 
Yet it is the 800hz -12k hz which is 90%+ of our music. 

A Cayin KT88 will not sound much different from a   Jadis KT88, so close to make not much difference which one you decide to purchase. 
(now its true I've not heard these 2 on a high sens speaker,, so i could be wrong,,but on a low sens speaker my opinion  is valid = power = power)

Speakers make all the difference. 
And there is only one benchmark, the 1920's Field Coils as The Speaker Standard. 

Not EVEN ONE SINGLE AUDIOGONNER IS FOLLOWING ANYTHING I AM ATTEMPTING TO GET ACROSS, 
I better keep my the rest of what i have to sa to muself, lest I get the boot for free civil  respectful speech.
~~~~~~~~~~~ cancel culture is alive and well. ~~~~~~~~~~~
Ive already gotten the boot PERMANENTLY  on
Jungian forums
Classsical Music forums
Youtube has my comment section permanebntly blocked
Amazon has deleted  all my product reviews  with no chance at parole, Permanent block.
Seems  I am odd man out whereever I go,. 
My ancestor was Horace Bunhnell. 
This is true I am not lying, My Father's mother was Bushnell from Massachusetts area. 
i even have similar facial features as Horace. \
Just thought I'd explain whats in  my  genes to think as I do. 
Horace Bushnell was not inferior in genius to Benjamin Franklin. 
Thus making Horace one of the very original , imaginative creative thinkers in all american history. 
I am grateful to have some part of this inherited genius.  Very grateful. 
Yet only recognized  lately by me. And such genius awefully neglected.  Let me get back to my studies, I can see no hope  for any of my insights/ideas around here, Nice day Gentlemen, seekers of high fidelity.
Keep on seeking, you may find what I found. 
My Voxatics; AC1A;s arrive next week, 
YEPPIEEE Halleluja.

" I am grateful to have some part of this inherited genius. Very grateful.
Yet only recognized lately by me..."

That's a heavy cross you bear. LOL

Geez, if that was the long story short, I shudder to think of what the long version is like.

Yes , genius demands respect and dedication, Neither of which I can honestly say I;'ve lived up to this spirit. 
And paid dearly for  my crimes.

Now back to business of 
Is there such a  thing as a *objectivity  in judging  perforamnce ofa  speakers ability to sing high fidelity*?
 I want to  clarify something I wrote earlier,
1920's FC's are The Standard by which all speakers mids (800hzism = say 12khzish) are judged by.
I never said these remarkable speakers were the ultimate standard, even up to today.
I said these drivers established a  sort of general voicing of musical fidelity, making music feel alive with presence.
This old magical fidelity is now given a  *rebirth* in the new wide band designs. 

Thus we have these new wide band, based on the old FC's. as the New Standard of High Fidelity, A standard by which all xover /low sensitivity speakers must be judged by.

Of course you have the right to fully or partially disgree  with these strong  and firm  convictions upheld  by my experiences of recent months.

This is The 21st century, 1960's, 1970s are now longggg goneee.
this is The New High Tech Age. The door is wide open. The key that opens,  is a honest spirit of curiosity and adventure. 
 All seekers of super high fidelity , please will you not follow me through these  secret  doors to a  land of musical wonders and magical charms??

If you cannot hear a meaningful difference between a 6L6 a KT120, a single ended 45 or a single-ended 2a3, a KT88, 6550, a 300b, etc., either something is VERY wrong with the particular amps, the rest of the system, the room, or the ability of the listener to appreciate the sound of tube gear.  What is probably NOT the case is that there is something wrong with the speakers because sonic differences would be obvious with almost ANY speakers.  

I happen to like many higher efficiency speakers, including a few single driver full range systems, but I hardly would insist that this is the only way to achieve satisfying sound.  Also, there are plenty of differences between the low-powered amps that I favor.  I own three different tube amps, the highest powered amp is a parallel single-ended 2a3 amp, followed by a pushpull 349 amp, and then the pushpull 45 amp (sort of guessing the order of power output, but, I believe none of the amps are rated above 6.5 watts/channel).  They all sound good, they all sound quite different from each other, and to me, they all sound MUCH better than any KT88/120/150 amp I've heard.  

I don't   belive I will like SET's, Just a  good hunch.
Surea  SET tube is quite dif sonics/performance from the power PP tubes , this for sure. 
No doubt,. I was speaking of 
el34 vs kt88 vs kt120. 
In my limited experience, all 3 were very close. 
Tiny miniscule differences. 
That said i had a  set of Gold Lion Kt88's in my Defy 7 and quickly shipping them back fora  refund = a  20% restock fee anda  note from Vivatubes to shop elsewhere, as that was my 2nd return in 2 weeks. 
anyway, 
The 3 tube amps, perform quite  THE SAME.
Why so close?
Due to the Seas Thors low sensitivity not able to detect a  change in amps. 
= Low sens speakers  do not have the capacity to detect upgrades/tweaks, mods, with any  SIGNIFICANT (some sonic change can be herad, but you  have to STRAIN the ear, and takes some time to note the changes)  sonic differences

In CONTRAST


With a  high sensitivity speaker, , just swapping a  Mundorf EVO SilverGold to a  Supreme EVO SilverGold, you will note the  difference  in the amps sonics, via the highly sensitive speakers voicing character., Right away.
 Following me?.
Lets get off amps  sonics differences and stay with the main event, speaker designs. 
The Good, The  Bad The Ugly

As one who has done many mods/upgrades to gear, cabling and crossovers over the years, I can tell you the following comment is not necessary correct.
“Low sens speakers do not have the capacity to detect upgrades/tweaks, mods, with any SIGNIFICANT (some sonic change can be herad, but you have to STRAIN the ear, and takes some time to note the changes) sonic differences”

I suppose you need to define “low sensitivity”. If you define that as speakers in the 87-92 db range, then my experience is most definitely opposite of your statement.
I have also done the same sort of upgrades on systems and speakers with 92-97 db sensitive  speakers with very similar results. Not radically more noticeable as you are suggesting. Now perhaps you are talking about speakers with greater than 97db sensitivity? Not worked on such speakers to date. I rather doubt these extremely sensitive speakers would cause you to hear upgrades and tweaks more readily. It seems to me this is far more dependent on the quality and overall resolving nature of the gear and speakers. Speaker sensitivity, in and of itself, is not going to do it.

I can't follow the argument at all.  If making a cap change makes the differences in the amps very evident, how can you then say the amps all sound essentially the same?  

larryi2,540 posts07-06-2021 1:43pmI can't follow the argument at all. If making a cap change makes the differences in the amps very evident, how can you then say the amps all sound essentially the same?

I found the Mundorf SESGO .47's on the 12 tube circuit to be substantial  gains in the slam bass department. Worth the $650?? Yeah I;'d say so, 1 time deal. , 
maybe even some gaisn in upper mids.highs, Not sure as THE SEAS MILLENNIUM IS A MISERABLE 87DB SENS = dysfunctional, not able to register the gains made by the addition of the .47 SESGO Mundorf caps. 
The W18's responded nicely.

 This is what i am trying to get it, 
I am confident if we take the Jadis Defy7,  and swap the caps with the highs ens speaker, We will all note both bass gains as in the W18's response, but as well note gains in other fq register 
'Why? Sens is much higher , like 91++db, On the Vox spec page.
TRUE 91db, Seas Millennium has dips valleys, and is nota  solid 87, there is SIGNIFICANT roll off over 10k hz. And thats with Mudorf high end caps in the xover.
=  complete waste of money. The Mundorf's only gave a  MINISCLE tweak upgrade to the Millennium resolution. 
Point being higher sens, wide band, will trump any dome, in fact any tweeter Ribbons, AMT's you name it, every single time. 
Wide band are simply magical, and most folks just find them mysterious and  **what i can't understand, is not worth looking into*

And back they go to xover brands. .

No xover fan-atic can give any supportive reasons why we should all stay with their popular vote.

All factors for voicing high fidelity point in the direction of wide band. 
Its here, and ain't going no where. 
What is moving down hill are xover speaker sales. Ck out the used grave yard. WOW, 45 days, no bites. 
Its sad. Really depressing to know other audiophles are suffering with their listing. 
I feel for ya. 

I suppose you need to define “low sensitivity”. If you define that as speakers in the 87-92 db range

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
In general wide band = higher sens, = 92db++, 
Low sens xover types = 91db lower. 
Very hard to finda  xover type at above 90db, Most are 87db, like my Seas Thors. 
tahts too low to make magical high fidelity, Those folks are only fooling themselves. 
Their speakers are not fidelity, Its distortion. 
Been there done that. 

Low E speakers is below 85%, that is still HiFi. 86-93% is HiFi high E speakers. It's as simple as that.

Above 93% you are IN PRO territory.

98% and above is pure PA.

From a speaker manufactures point of view it was ONLY a dollar and NOISE issue. Highly efficient speakers will show EVERY flaw in a noisy system and good pro speakers have GREAT Voice Coils. They stay cooler and hold TURE to their spec sheet. The issue is cost.. the VC normally for pro is at least 8 ohms and measured at 1 meter. NOT the hype of HiFi and 4 ohm BS.

Today because of very quiet preamps and power amps, "SOME" of the manufactures are using Pro and PA speakers mixed with HiFi speakers.
LOL all is good UNTIL you get a noisy valve or you go deaf and can't hear the noisy noise floor. 

87-92% is a VERY efficient speaker and with care NOT to noisy. BUT above that. Mercy.

I can here the HISS in Antioch, CA from El Paso, TX, make that Atlanta GA..:-) It's a loud one..

The old Klipsch at 99 to 103%. With a noisy system my ears just wouldn't let me stick around.. Same way at concerts.. CRAP sound, or noisy equipment.. I was GONE.. BUT that same speaker (Klipsch La Scala or Corner horns) with a super quiet Mac or Marantz or HK citation. LOOK OUT!! HEAVEN...

OP what the heck does,  "Low sens xover types = 91db lower". MEAN?

Below 85% is still HiFi. I've heard BIG electro stats that were in the 60% efficiency range that would blow your friggin' mind... Just had to DRAIN a local transformer at the POLE to get them to sound really really good..
500.00 PG&E bills behind A/B 600 watt mono block amps.. Rich Kids!!

Not me.. They just didn't sound they way they could with class ds an 2000 watts..

What a  Pitty!

Very interesting, the pro drivers I have seen are garbage relatively speaking. A great dome tweeter is a work of art ferrofluid and all. Have you seen the casting of a Dayton subwoofer basket? 1st class. 
Lower efficiency is not an evil if you can afford the watts. If anything it is the sign of a highly evolved crossover. If you are hung up on pea shooter tube amps then you have a big problem. I have yet to hear an uncolored full range driver other than an ESL and even they need a bit of tuning. I you think you are going to get decent bass out of an 8" driver with a whizzer cone stuck on it I want some of the stuff you are smoking. Midrange is worthless if there is no bass and treble stuck to it. 

I've got news for you, science gave us all the wonderful drivers and components we have and science is perfectly capable of given us insane sounding loudspeakers it just gets expensive. Science has no control over the room you stick them in. However science again comes to the rescue with digital signal processing and the in home test equipment to get any speaker working at it's best. 

LOL all is good UNTIL you get a noisy valve or you go deaf and can't hear the noisy noise floor.

87-92% is a VERY efficient speaker and with care NOT to noisy. BUT above that. Mercy.

I can here the HISS in Antioch, CA from El Paso, TX, make that Atlanta GA..:-) It's a loud one..


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
OK Fair, and interestijng
So what you are getting at 
is if one the 12 KT88;'s in the Defy starts to go bad, which some are failing now as I type, they go dark, cold, and so i pop in another, whether its a mtach I have no idea. 
They have some 3k hrs by now i'm guessing. 
So  a  bad cranky tube may cause issues, Got it. 
Might need to sell off the Defy,,,ahh but can't right now you can't give a  heavy amp away, nothing is moving,,,But I may keep the Defy as backup, nothing more,,, and add a  Dynaco ST70 EL34, takes only 4 EL34's, = afforadble to retube.
**Hiss factor*** Yeah I can understand if the sensitivity is  over say,,,97db. 
I think, not sure the Vox are like 97db, . 
So hiss may be an issue, 
Got it. 
Higher sensitivity is good, but also picks up any flaw throughout entire system, Got it,.

BUT OTOH,
Higher sensitivity allows the new high tech JFET opamsp in the Jadis DAC, now to be herad, Takman REy metal resistors can now be noted via the higher sensitivty,. Mundorf caps, can bring forth their magic, Navships   cables throughout entire system can now  be heard.
Lower sensitivity , 91db lower, these speakers block and tweak/mod/upgrade fro being voiced.
Argue all you want, I have noted this in my experiements. 

Its all based on actual testing. 

If I need a  EL34, I'll add one, 
We will have to wait and see how the driver responds to different amplifiers. 
Hopeful the Jadis will be quiet and a  success.
 There was a time when the Jadis had hum in one channel, 
WE swaped out the main  internal wire with navships silver copper and thus far, only hums if the tube has issues.

I agree though, any hum in a  amp, will be  acceptable on the xover low sensitivity type speaker,,, , as its hardly noted,
 but here with 97db, even the slighest hum, will be a  aggravtaion. 

Very interesting, the pro drivers I have seen are garbage relatively speaking. A great dome tweeter is a work of art ferrofluid and all

~~~~~~~~~
The Seas Millennium is one of the worlds finest ever tweeters, Not sure how anyone can like a  dome tweeter,, Beats me.
Pro Drivers are aweful for music,, , these super powerful  super high sensitivity drivers are only for discos and PA systems, Not for music. 
Wide band are not Pro Drivers, 
They are completely different from Pro Compression horns. 

**Why is science a starting point, yet not the end point?*

As a research scientist my answer is:
Electronics / electromagnetism / acoustics should be the stating point of every design, and biology / pshcyhoacoustics should be the end point of all designs.

So, the proper scientific workflow of audio gear design is from engineering science to biological science.
The last link (biological science) is ALWAYS missing, as most manufacturers want (and understand only) validation from electronics standpoint. Yet, all the electronic performance validation gets is whether a unit performs up to design specifications or not, gives only very vague pointers on how the human biological system interprets the results.
The reason for this design workflow deficency is two fold:
1., We know little of phscyoacoustics (that is, how our brain interprets soundwaves) - but we most certainly know more than enough that it should be the core of design that dares to call itself scientific. (If we leave out the human, then we are just designing lab equipment, and not stereo to play back music.)2., Shoddy planning rationale, half-scientific approach. (Sadly true for most fields today, the side-effect of over-specialization.) Specialized experts cannot see beyond their field of specialization, and thus neglect core parameters and considerations: for example, an electric engineer cannot see beyond the scope of his instruments and the electric domain, and does not even recognize that there is a human element - the very element that should be the goal of all his efforts.
Once we start involving psychoacoustics, I project that there will be a massive boom in music reproduction quality, and we will also see the birth of a working measure of sound quality.

Speakers present by far the most THD vs any other component therefore more monies are needed to present the event correctly. Many speakers skimp
especially in the  crucial crossover which is the 🧠 or ♥️ of the
speaker that is why upgrading,or mods apply ,as well as most amps, preamps. That being said ,the front end digital ,or analog 
is at least = to the Loudspeaker in importance for all music starts there .if the signal is degraded in any way it cannot be improved later on down stream.

It is this thinking about the so called high tech of today that is the most disturbing when audio was started they spared no expense on the drivers, cabinets, crossovers, etc. as well as the microphones to record the music with when we all realize that technology is not the answer but finding/ rediscovering the past is the answer to our audio problems. The old technology is where it is at for a lot of listeners in the know especially when you compare the old with the new no contest old every time.

No.  OP is entirely incorrect.

Garbage in garbage out.  If the other components in the system screw up your music then there's nothing even $1m speakers can do about it.

Sort out the front end first.

By the way OP, that's 'principal' not 'principle'.

clearthinker438 posts07-07-2021 5:32amBy the way OP, that’s ’principal’ not ’principle’.

Thank you very much for this sp correction, Honestly I had no idea of
*al and *el*
I really did not,
I really need to get on my word learning again.
If I may once again my mantra,  ,
Speakers are
The PRINCE-pal* , Crown Jewel of our sound. Pun intended.
Amp/source are the servants, 

speakermaster536 posts07-06-2021 8:23pmIt is this thinking about the so called high tech of today that is the most disturbing when audio was started they spared no expense on the drivers, cabinets, crossovers, etc. as well as the microphones to record the music with when we all realize that technology is not the answer but finding/ rediscovering the past is the answer to our audio problems. The old technology is where it is at for a lot of listeners in the know especially when you compare the old with the new no contest old every time.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I asked my tech guy as to way Magnovox , Jensen, Zienth made suh great speakers in the Console cabinets,
Alnico's Field Coils and such. 
He says, because back in the late 50's, early 60's , materails were cheap, and engineers, designs were not rushed, things were done more meticulous and with the objective how can we make this the very best sound speaker. 
Fact is the 1920 Field Coils made in Chicago and Berlin, had set at least some standards as to how midrange should  sound. Nice clear , articulate, sound stage presence, krisp, detailed,. 
just wonderful... 
Fast forward to late 60's , 1970s. 
ConsumerISM = commercialISM came along, Cheap drivers , cheao xover parts, 
The few good ones , like Theil, Philips, AR4's,  a  few others, were the best of the  bunch, 
Some folks continue to this day to enjoy and cherish these xover designs, 
A friend has stacked AR4's, , really sounded great, , I must admit with a Golden Tube masive tube amp anda  Conrad Johnson line stage. 
But you you, if you listen on 1 channel with any xover desiggned speaker, and the other channel with a   new high tech wide band, 
The contrast will be significant. And for me the shootout will be over in less than 1 minute, if not a few seconds. 
This is how impressed I am with wide band/xoverless sound. 

Its really a no-brainer.
It was only a matter of time before we met paths, at the xroads. A
Adious xovers,
 I gave you all  the very best , Mundorf super high tech caps (=$$$$) and yet you just could not muster up more than a  *tweak-ling* in upgraded sound. . 
You let me down, and its high tech time  that we part ways
FOREVER!!!!!!!
There  are new kids on the block who can sing far superior than you ever could. 

If I had the chance to hear Troels Gravesen's top end speakers, would I like the sound?
I think so, 
But at what cost?? 
Expensive, heavy, and big. 
3 factors that cancel out any interest I may have. 
Sad wide band were not the main principAl topic around Audiogon starting back in the early 2000's. 
Any interest in these designs, (excluding horns, speaking only cone wide band)  got shoved under the,,,steam roller. 
It has always been about xoverxoverxover designs. 
This  forum is so biased if not prejudiced. If not despising against wide band cones. 
AS the poet wrote
*The times are a  changin*
Bob Dylan

Magnepan.

Mozartfan,

Can you list, without acronyms, the specific speaker systems you are referring to as being state of the art, particularly ones that have no crossovers at all?  Aside from a small handful of cone driver speakers with just a single driver (Charney and Voxativ), I have not heard any that, given my taste and priorities, I would consider an acceptable set of compromises.  The other acceptable single driver systems were panel speakers (electrostatics), like the big Soundlab speakers (the biggest compromise with these speakers being the need to play them at somewhat high volume levels). 

I like systems with wide range drivers handling a big part of the upper bass through most of the treble range, probably because they minimize the negative effects of a crossover, but, a crossover is almost always a necessary item in a decent full range system.   Some of the systems I like employing such drivers include very old drivers (like the Jensen M10 fieldcoil driver) as well as modern drivers, including exotic drivers like the Feastrix field coil drivers, and Voxativ drivers.  There are a number of manufacturers using wide range drivers in multi-way systems that sound good to me, such as systems from Soundkaos and Trenner and Friedl.

 I happen to like very much systems employing compression/horn midrange drivers, particularly vintage drivers, like those by Western Electric and the International Projector Company.  Modern fieldcoil drivers from the likes of G.I.P. Laboratories (Japan) sound terrific too.  

If you heard just one example of a crossover "upgrade" that disappointed you, I don't think that there is enough data to generalize about crossovers in general.  If a speaker is not very good, or if a speaker IS very good (including the crossover supplied by the manufacturer), attempts at an upgrade may not work out.  If the "upgrade" consisted of simply putting in a more expensive part with the same electrical value, it will often be the case that the result is hardly a difference or even a negative result.  A local builder whose speakers I really like, totally HATES the sound of the expensive Mundorf caps; for his designs and particular taste, these are bad caps.  A good design is one that is voiced properly and that does not necessarily mean using more expensive parts.

richopp443 posts07-07-2021 7:30amMagnepan.

My tech geek  LOVES his Maggies.
I am sure they are quite special. 
If you need/want  what they offer.
I agree for some, this Pannel design still holds value. 
I am not saying wide band should be *one size fits all*. 
That everyone should dump their xover designs and get a  wide band. 
Not at all.
(hush off to the side,,,if they did, then they would be as the poet wrote *Have you ever been experienced,,welll I haveaaa* 
Hendrix)

larryi2,541 posts07-07-2021 8:03amMozartfan,

Can you list, without acronyms, the specific speaker systems you are referring to as being state of the art, particularly ones that have no crossovers at all? Aside from a small handful of cone driver speakers with just a single driver (Charney and Voxativ), I have not heard any that, given my taste and priorities, I would consider an acceptable set of compromises. The other acceptable single driver systems were panel speakers (electrostatics), like the big Soundlab speakers (the biggest compromise with these speakers being the need to play them at somewhat high volume levels).

I like systems with wide range drivers handling a big part of the upper bass through most of the treble range, probably because they minimize the negative effects of a crossover, but, a crossover is almost always a necessary item in a decent full range system.  Some of the systems I like employing such drivers include very old drivers (like the Jensen M10 fieldcoil driver) as well as modern drivers, including exotic drivers like the Feastrix field coil drivers, and Voxativ drivers. There are a number of manufacturers using wide range drivers in multi-way systems that sound good to me, such as systems from Soundkaos and Trenner and Friedl.

 I happen to like very much systems employing compression/horn midrange drivers, particularly vintage drivers, like those by Western Electric and the International Projector Company. Modern fieldcoil drivers from the likes of G.I.P. Laboratories (Japan) sound terrific too.  

If you heard just one example of a crossover "upgrade" that disappointed you, I don't think that there is enough data to generalize about crossovers in general. If a speaker is not very good, or if a speaker IS very good (including the crossover supplied by the manufacturer), attempts at an upgrade may not work out. If the "upgrade" consisted of simply putting in a more expensive part with the same electrical value, it will often be the case that the result is hardly a difference or even a negative result. A local builder whose speakers I really like, totally HATES the sound of the expensive Mundorf caps; for his designs and particular taste, these are bad caps. A good design is one that is voiced properly and that does not necessarily mean using more expensive parts.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Larryi
This is a fair and well present post.
I appreciate your contributions to this discussion, of
**Where do we go from here??*
Long story short.
I really can not say I've heard a  better  xover design  that beats Seas. 
We all have to agree Seas makes the best sounding drivers, with Scanspeak as a  twin brother in this regard. 
The main issue here is the low db spec. I  simply can not will not accept that sensitivity for my music. 
can't won't. Those days are over. 
Been there done that. 
Theils, Wilson's etc, all will have the same issues of low  sensitivity = Read *INefficient = IJNeffective*. Others can argue, their case these xover designs continue to hold value.
Pre new high tech wide band (AER/Voxativ) , yeah, ok, the xover designs with Scan and Seas, had value. 
But now with newer , superior technology in these single drivers, the *older* xover designs have been rendered of less value. 

All due to the Sensitivity factor. 
Which is EVERYTHING ina  speakers performance. 
The xover  fanatics will not  embrace the new wide band.
They say its not their cup of tea, Yet w/o having even  heard a  quality wide  band = Pure biased prejudice.
I am writing for all the nwbies who will come into this hobby over the next  few decades. 
All my hundreds of posts, ranting and raving over wide band speakers,,may at least give newbies some ideas that xovers are NOT the ONLY speaker to hear true high fidelity.
Your Jensen and Western Electric i am sure sound better than most xover types from the 70's and 80's. 
Those great high sens designs got pushed under the bus, all due to commercialISM,
This is my point.
I see xover designs as inefficient thus not really qualified to voice true fidelity.
Here, 1929 THis was true fidelity. We are about to go full circle, What began as high efficient speakers, now will go full circle back to wide band high sensivity speakers, 
In 20 years from now, xover types, Theils, etc, all these will be cast away at  garage sales, cheaply priced on Ebay,  stuck in the dusty attic.
The  next generation audiophile is moving away from xover styles and going wide band cone speakers. 
Its just a  matter of time. 
This is my i blast my mantra all over the Inet 
To get the word out, Get the ball rolling. 
Take the spot light off xover  designs and put the light where it truly deservedly belongs, 
Wide Band /High sensitivity speakers. 
I am The Iconclyst.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpsPGnvIfFA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qrqv5nOjLuw

WE have to get back to the very beginnings, where it all started. 
We have forgotten what true high fidelity is all about, 
Seas Millennium,,,give me a  break, Wet blankets = un-musical. 

So like I was listening to Schnittke and  thinking, thinking things over,,, what if,. I take a  slightly dampen the DavidLouis 4 inch Wide band/sens 91db
This was will cut ever so slightly the stress she shows at certain complex passages, + I get to make a  slight gain on the Jadis DPL linestage (due to less blare  comming from the DL 4 at certain  high gain passages)  + this way the china paper 3.5 inch  tweet/Double magnet/91db  and the dual W18E001's both get a  pinch more power to do their thing.
So i took a old Tshirt,,and thought a  minute,,,hummm, lets try a  single  side of cotton, so cut the T in half and  laid a  single easy to pass the DL's fq,s yet slightly dampen at ceryain high volt passages.
WORKED!!!
Now i get a   pinch more gain going to the incredible W18E001's/Mundorf Supreme caps/Gertz super duty copper coil, and also to the KASUN $50/pair 3.5 inch paper cone tweeters/DOUBLE MAGNET,, /91db!!!. WORKED!!!
Honestly
Truthfully
Straight up.
I could easily live with this Frankenstein, not needing at all the Voxativ, I am quite happy with waht is going on here with this 3 way Frankenstein. 
Its more than i could ever imagined  that i would ever own. 
IOW, after having struggled over  trying to find a  3 way that would bring my music to life, spending hour after hour searching seas's web site for possible solutions. 
All along the secret to  answering my problem, was 

~~~~~~~~~~WIDE BAND~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
As Midrange = 800hz-12khz. 
BINGO I win. 
Just beat out the xover disaster, complete total failure. 
I'm running a  Mundorf 2.2 cap to the china paper tweeter. 
Just as good, actually better than any dome tweet from ScanSpeak and Seas. 
Did you hear that Troels??
My $50 china paper tweet beats out your Scan/Seas dome tweeters..

The Voxativ is really going to have a  tough shootout with my Frankenstein. 
Gonna be bloody, 

You have it backwards. The source is what matters. A poor source and your expensive speakers will faithfully reproduce it, in all its awfulness.

A nice source and your cheap speakers will sound good.

It all matters but the things most likely to be a barrier to best sound possible assuming all good gear to start with are how well the speakers play in the room at your listening position and how well integrated the amplification devices are with the speakers.

If vinyl is a source then there are a whole slew of other integration issues to deal with there between tonearm, cart, and amp.  
Digital front ends are not nearly as complicated to get set up well for good sound. 

If vinyl is a source then there are a whole slew of other integration issues to deal with there between tonearm, cart, and amp.  
Digital front ends are not nearly as complicated to get set up well for good sound.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Agree there, My tech geek has some audiophiles that spend big bucks ona  phono set up, 
= No thanks, I'm a  poor audiophile.
Ck iut the new high tech JFET opamps off Ebay, Really sweet. 
These are the best of the new breed opamps. 
Ck out my YT vid above to see them in action \About to upload another vid this morning.
made another easy tiny tweak in my system, Involves 1 side ofa  Tshirt, Yes i said Tshirt, like the one you are waering lol

New tweak in my speakers, 
Tshirt, which blocks out a  miniscule spike in the DavidLouis 4 inch, Only on certain complex classical passages will  the 4 inch full  range voice a  tiny stress, which gets on my nerves, So i throw a  single side ofa  Tshirt across, 
And results were acceptable.
Now I can gain the vol up a  pinch, allowing the beautiful Seas W18's and the china 3.5 inch Double Magnet 91db tweeter to get more juice as well, 
Results, Very nice tweak,.
In this video, a bit long at 30 minutes I make the audacious claim that my Frankenstein speakers will out shoot any and all xover speakers in the 200hz-15khz range.
Why   the bold claim ?
Due to my DavidLouis  and paper tweeters higher sensivitity vs vandersteens, Thiel and other speakers xover in that range. 
The mids in the xover brands are so fatiguing due to a   polluted midrange- say 8khz area.
Its all muddy and distorted.
I could not listena to a Thiel  or Vandersteen  not longer than a  few minutes at the most. Before severe listners fatigue set in. 
My Frankensteins have zero fatigue, zero coloration.
Why? 
Wide Band is the answer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-DyGnNrZrI

Watched a YouTube video on the Voxativ site that led to another video touring the facility where their products are made. They are working on two and three way designs for future offerings. My guess is they will employ crossovers. 
Iconoclast is the word you are looking for. Also the brand name of some very well designed speaker cables

Maybe.

@mozartfan  I am curious about your system.  What is it that you have for speakers and all of the support front-end gear?  I don't see your system posted on your Agon page, so please, enlighten me (us).

With much respect.

manogolf14 posts07-07-2021 2:38pmWatched a YouTube video on the Voxativ site that led to another video touring the facility where their products are made. They are working on two and three way designs for future offerings. My guess is they will employ crossovers.

Yes the tour is amazing, UNREAL. Did you see how super light weight the papyrus cone material.. WOWW, Super light cone meets super powerful neo magnet = Nuclear explosion. 

OK well, if they bring in some xovers in  a  new design, I have no issues, None whatsoever. 
As the sensitivity will still be high. 
Its xovers + low sensitivity = distortion/coloration = anti-musical anti-high fidelity, This is my issue with vandersteen/Thiels and the rest of that bunch, 
Yes Iconoclast. 
Been some time since i  used that word. 
I am The Iconoclast.
I bet Voxativ comes out witha  10  incher. You watch. 

mammothguy54470 posts07-07-2021 2:59pm@mozartfan I am curious about your system. What is it that you have for speakers and all of the support front-end gear? I don’t see your system posted on your Agon page, so please, enlighten me (us).

With much respect.

~~~~~~~~~~~
Well it was Adam over at modisound who mention, **Wow, you are building some kind of Frankenstein*.
Yep The Frankenstein,
He came out my lab due toa huge disappointment with my expensive Mundorf cap upgrade to the Millennium, I figured the result would be a Super tweeter like no other, Only small nuances was the result.
Ok, Jadis Defy7
, Had my tech swap out the old Jadis wires for navships silver/copper navy/Aero space high tech wiring(NICEEE).
Mundorf(made by F&T) SESGO caps on the 12 tubes, + nice F&T’s in other areas of the Defy.
The Philips caps inside and on top, these are worth their weight in pure Gold, 
Takman Rey metal resistors throughtouut system. Gains? have to wait for the Wide band, I’d say Takman Rey’s are the best bang for the buck resistors.
I HATE carbon resistors,
Lets see, what else, Jadis DAC JS2/mark2,
Jadis DPL
Mundorf caps throughout both units. Evo Silver’s.
Speakers are the Thors minus the Millennium tweeter.
Replaced witha DavidLouis 4 inch wide band and a KASUN double magnet 91db 3.5 inch paper cone tweeter/Mundorf 2.2 Silver oil supreme.
W18E001’s 40hz-800hz
David louis 4 inch  80hz-12khz, maybe higher, not sure the rolloff.
Paper cone tweeter, like 9khz - maybe 15khz.
Not sure.
The speakers make this system work, I can not stand muddy/coloration in the 1k-6khz range.
My 1981 purchase of the Philips High Fidelity labotories 375 2 way, the tweeter set the Gold Standard.
My tech geek believes the same, independently of my opinion.
However, i don’t like domes, the surface area voicing is too tiny.
He made me aware of the nice performance of paper cone tweeters, His paper cones in the Realistic Nova 7 (Bs?) are ok, in fact quite good,
’I think my KASUN double magnet’s trump his $3 paper cones.
I have no complaints about the KASUN paper cone tweeter, It does exactly what a good tweeter is suppose to do.
Took me some time to find that lil guy. Only 1 seller has it.
Anyway, I think the sysytem is near completion.. I ’m broke now, But worth it.
;-))

A good design is one that is voiced properly and that does not necessarily mean using more expensive parts.

@ larryi - That could easily be a direct quote from my previous employer, and it's something we absolutely agree upon.

@mozartfan  The posts are very long and maybe I missed something.  What I did read suggested that you are less than enchanted with most everything available today.  Thus, I inquired of what it is that you have for a system.  I really was sincere about that.  If I have misinterpreted any of your posts I sincerely apologize.

Nevertheless, I appreciate that you are interested in what my system consists of.  Well, I have  had a few very nice ones over my lifetime.  I retired from the workforce about 3 years ago and after dealing with a total hip replacement I decided to create a better system for my retirement years.  Ultimately I will post pictures on my Agon page, now that I am mostly done with building the system.  I still need to build a digital front end.  For now, I am happy to provide you with a list of the components.
Note; there are a lot of great components on the market and there are a lot of great systems that are far better than mine.  However, I am very satisfied with the outcome of what I have assembled over these past 2 years.

Turntable   Rega Planar 10
Cartridge   Lyra Delos (soon to upgrade to a Hana, Umami Red)
Phono stage  Manley Chinook
Preamp   Balanced Audio Technology VK-33SE
Amp        Balanced Audio Technology VK-90T (new model, just released)
Subwoofer  REL S-812
Speakers   Dynaudio Contour 60i
Dedicated 20 amp circuit for the system
Power conditioner   Audioquest, Niagara 3000
Signal cables   Audioquest, Earth
Power cables  Audioquest, Tornado (High-Current and Source)
Speaker cables  Audioquest, William Tell Zero
Equipment rack  Symposium Acoustics, Foundation Rack Ultra
Ampstand   Symposium Acoustics, Ultra Pro Stealth Edition
Vibration control   Symposium Acoustics, Rollerblock Jr HDSE (under all components, including subwoofer) 

There are plenty of great ones out there, but this one sounds very good to me (and pushed me to my financial limits).  I'm not yet certain of what to do for a digital front end, but ultimately I'll get there.  Vinyl has been the main source for my entire life.

You know I have been disparaging, over critical of xover designs to the point of nausea.
A condemantion which most fully have earned due not to their bass, nor highs, Its is the 1k-6k hz’s where they have miserably failed.
All , every single top name brand, A-Z have sounded like crocking frongs in certain mid band widths.
Yet not all deserve this trashing.
Have you guys taken a close look at Troels Gravesens designs.
Pricey, but definetly top designs of alll xover types. Commercial labs can’t even approached Troel’s designs.
I note Troels says some of his designs are 91 db efficient,
If this is true, then his designs will compete with these new wide band speakers.
When you add all things up, the new wide band wins the contest. 
For many reasons over Troels top designs. 


My Q is this, How can Troels acheive 91 db efficiency, when the 3 Seas drivers he uses are all rated below 90db??
anyone?
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/CNO-4.htm

@mozartfan Your tech person loves his Maggies because they do not add anything to the music.  You hear what you put through them.

My experience as a dealer shows that there are two basic issues with Maggies:

1.  Your room is either not conducive to their size or placement and cannot be "modified" to make it work.
2.  Some of your hardware is flawed in some way and needs help.  This may require replacing some of it, which many of my customers did and many did not (cost, etc.).

However, NO ONE complained that they speakers were not accurate.

Give yourself a chance to hear them.  If they don't work for you IN YOUR ROOM, go with something else.  It is worth the time to try, I promise!

Cheers!

@ mozartfan   Would you clarify the meaning of the phrase "crocking frongs" for the uninitiated, please.

I've heard EL34 vs 88 vs 120's, So close as to make it pointless.

Translated

I’m so tinned eared that EL34s and KT88s sound the same to me.

Wide band t-shirts. Better undergarments for all. 
Do you really believe the earbud-apple-sonus masses are going to follow? Not to mention the strong pull of the more watts the better crowd. 
Unless the price comes way down....wait....no costly crossover parts therefore your genie lamp should cost as tin....not. More puffery and self immolation at the subjective shrine at see what I bought. 

" Speakers as the principle component/other components are servants"
is what I read as the title of this thread but after a few posts is it rather easy to see that Mozartfan is simply busy schilling his type of speaker yet once again, on and on. Time to go. This was never intended to be a discussion about speakers as primary components.  Tricky boy...