@pennfootball71 So sorry. I meant of course to say modern Krells try to defeat time by moving from regular Class B to Class A, not as I said.
Speakers and amplifiers show audiophiles are confused.
An audiophile buys a pair of speakers for $50K or $100K then asks what amps make them sound best. That’s about as smart as marrying a girl without knowing her personality. What are the specs that will insure your expensive new speakers and amps will work optimality with each other? There’s got to be an app for that, well no there isn’t because there are too many variables and companies don’t present their specs in a standard ways. Why is it that speaker and amplifier manufactures don’t recommend specific amps for their speakers? Beyond power, impedance, and making your own crossovers how do you choose amplifiers to get all the potential out of your speakers?
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I can't get no relief.
@pennfootball71 Today's Krells are NOT pure Class A. As soon as the signal gets challenging, they move to Class B. But not until after the challenge is over. That's why they don't run hot. Pure Class A has to run hot; a scientific fact that cannot be by-passed. |
@kota1 Ill check out those guys at Axpona if there is anyone else you want info from I’d be happy to ask them for you. |
@invalid concerts today are done with very sophisticated equipment Mr. Carver had no idea would come. Top equipment is now digital and networked, speakers are powered and designed for specific sections of the crowd with DSP on every speaker. The very best sound I’ve ever heard was the concert system Harmon (JBL) had in their indoor demo theater, the next best sound was when I was working on the TV show “Roadies”, we had a huge concert system with all the newest tech as a permanent part of the concert set but it was practical, a system that could fill a 70k stadium but it was on a movie stage at Manhattan Beach Studios. We would play it very softly and it sounded great. This system had volume on a completely different level than any audiophile ever imagined. We never turned it up but even low it didn’t sound like million dollar speakers it was much more expensive than that, it wasn’t just loud it was exceptionally hi quality, Mayer speakers, DiGiCo mixers and all the outboard gear we wanted . After Clair bought ShowCo in 2000 everything changed in big concert sound.The wall of sound with out of phase mics was cutting edge 40 years ago but would never make it today, that’s why you don’t see it today. Roadies was produced by Cameron Crow and he could get any musicians he wanted so I got to record some the best new musicians there were 2 of them with #1 songs when we recorded them, I did get to record Halsey, Lucius, John Mellencamp, Eddie Vedder, and Jackson Brown among others, loved that show. |
@invalid +1 |
@donavabdear really comparing concert amps to home audio? Bob carver said it best , pro amps are made to play loud and not break, not to sound good. The wall of sound is still one of the best sounding concert setups and that was how long ago? |
Selecting a grab-bag of "THX" gear and hoping it all sounds great together as a ’team’ is an interesting approach but one I’d deem aimed more at mid-fi, and folks who don’t have the time or inclination to audition (or don’t trust their ears if they do). I think that is a fair assessment, exactly the market that needs something like that to guide them +1. The THX rating seems to also have a high end market as well, Perlisten, KEF, Meridian, Parasound, and Benchmark. KEF’s US demo room at their NJ HQ is THX Dominus certified and they wear that like a badge of honor. Perlisten partnered with Storm Audio and Dirac at CES and bragged about their THX Dominus creds, this room is pretty high end: Look how Benchmark positions their THX amp in the high end: Pair the DAC3 (DAC-preamplifier) with the AHB2 (power amplifier) to create the ultimate high-resolution music system. These matched Benchmark components are designed to reproduce music without imparting audible noise, distortion, or coloration. https://benchmarkmedia.com/collections/amp
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Selecting a grab-bag of "THX" gear and hoping it all sounds great together as a 'team' is an interesting approach but one I'd deem aimed more at mid-fi, and folks who don't have the time or inclination to audition (or don't trust their ears if they do). As for me, I'll stay clear of that general approach towards gear acquisition as I trust my ears over THX on the front label. My system has been a work in progress over thirty plus years. I'm not much into guessing/hoping (except jellybeans in a jar). It is a bit of work, but in the end it's a personally tailored system you can enjoy. |
Today matching amps to speakers/crossovers is rooted in personal feelings and corporate marketing, the definition of confusion. Your post is confusing, crossovers and speakers are typically matched by the speaker designer and if they get a lot of returns and hurt a lot of personal feelings its bad for business. Amps are designed with the notion that they need to drive various types of speakers and specs are posted to help customers choose based on their type of speaker. Maybe @donavabdear can post a link to one of these sinister corporate marketing campaigns touting mismatched crossovers and speakers or amps that are making claims they can't support??? |
If I had a tight budget, did not want to to do much research, and wanted a matched system of various brands I would buy THX certified gear. That company’s sole purpose is to test gear so the THX standard plays together as a team. I have a THX receiver by Onkyo and a THX amp by Carver, absolute war horses punching way above their cost. Perlisten is winning awards for their speakers and they are touting the "THX Dominus" creds. So if the OP is really concerned about a mix and match recipe that one seems to work. When you look at these THX certified products all of them seem to hit high marks for quality. If you really want a mix and match app here is the THX one: |
Buying the biggest amp you can afford is like saying you should buy the biggest engine you can afford for driving. Some engines are huge and do a great job with low end power like tractors and earth movers, other engines do well at going fast, like dragsters. Just because the engine is big doesn't mean its power band is suited for your needs. This is a close analogy to amps speakers and crossovers. The amp (engine) needs to match the crossover (transmission) to ultimately reach acceleration (driver output). Big amps are not the most efficient best sounding solutions. Look at live sound amps they are getting smaller and more efficient, if bigger was better concerts would use huge amps, they were heading in that direction but not anymore. |
So, putting a great system together is a lot of work. It used to be a lot of work, in 2023 it is only work if you want it to be. You can have virtually any product shipped to your door with a 30-60 day return policy if you like to mix and match. You can get a "designer system" with matched components from end to end from many manufacturers such as Bryston, Harman, Sony, Anthem, etc. You can get an active speaker that has everything (speaker, amp, preamp,streamer, app control, DSP, etc) together from manufacturers like KEF, Dynaudio, JBL, etc. The old days you used to "shlep" from dealer to dealer. These days you just "surf" from online dealers, to forums like this, to youtube, and to reviews. So, I suppose it could get even easier but it is actually ridiculous how easy it is already.
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@mijostyn I have favored mostly Krell but have tried many, including tubes! My Krell Class A integrated is overkill for my Cornwall IV’s but it gets’er done ✅ |
@dave_b , You and I were cast in the same mold. Rock On! The right amplifier is the biggest bruiser you can afford. |
If you want a slightly warm and space heater buy Gryphon amps If you want neutral get Audionet If you want class A and neutralish Get the new $36,500 Krell - KSA‐i400 - 400W Stereo Class A Power Amplifier w/ iBias that makes it not a space heater. If you want to get made fun of buy McIntosh If you have more money than me get Boulder If you hate bass and just want highs get Simm moon If you want class D get AGD or Mola Mola If you want to impress people buy an orchestra to play around the speakers |
Many of us understand @donavabdear
I could't agree more and can completely relate. When I observe my young man (apple of my eye) play in the band it's intoxicating, but when I'll ask for a acoustic drum freestyle solo in the garage is when it becomes much more intimate. |
@ghdprentice Love your story and it seems the perfect answer to what's natural. I recorded actors for a living and I would say natural sound is eating lunch with Anthony Hopkins and then recording him on set and having it sound the same. It never really is the same our brains always translate the real experience and when we turn on our music systems. I only know of one piece of hi-fi equipment that actually sounds like real life and that is my Steinway and Sons Spirio/r grand piano it will playback songs with a digital engine that has over a thousand levels of dynamic range per key stroke. It sounds exactly right, there are no microphones or speakers. |
@kenjit As for the sound quality, this is not something which can be matched other than using trial and error because nobody knows why amplifiers and speakers sound the way they do. That's what I'm talking about. The only way to get the most out of your speaker is to have an amp and crossover that are designed for that speaker and its drivers. Some say on this thread that high end audiophiles aren't confused, seems like trial and error over such expensive equipment is the definition of confusion. |
OP… “With this in mind the best system should be the most natural sounding with the most headroom to accommodate different genres. ” This is a very good thought. Yes. But, as all things in high end audio it is not easy. For me, I took disks with music around that I liked and auditioned equipment… over decades as I upgraded various components. I made those disks sound better… but a lot of the music sounded less good. For various reasons I realized I needed to listen carefully to real music and instruments, so I could establish a ruler against which to measure my system and prospective components. So, for a couple decades, I would listen to any acoustic instrument I could. I got season tickets to the symphony… and went to 20 - 30 concerts a year for a decade. The long term exposure to real acoustic music gave me the “ear” to search out the right system. I completely changed my approach… starting with speakers… from planar to Sonus Faber dynamic. Huge move towards natural… then upgraded those a couple times over fifteen years… then my amp… then everything else… one by one getting rid of all the solid state gear. These changes, one by one made all musical categories sound better and better while admittedly compromising a small bit on electronic music. Over time, I slowly recognized and reconciled the difference between what I thought treble should sound like (the horrible distorted stuff I heard in concerts in the 60’s and 70’s) and what real instruments sound like. Brass sounds like brass not amplified bacon sizzling. My pursuit of high end audio reflects my views on life over time… it’s all black and white as a teen… and all shades of gray with great nuance as you age. So, putting a great system together is a lot of work. Once you get speakers of the character you want… that is just the start… you need an amp that delivers the signal it needs to make it sound the best to your ears. A huge solid state amp is likely to give you bass that will slap you in the chest and or stick minor details from venue in your face but completely fail to reproduce the nuances of a a bell, or cello, and more importantly the rhythm and pace that conveys the emotional connection… this goes on. All of your components need to be carefully chosen and compatible with each other to not loose all the nuances of real music. |
You dont need an app. Most speakers are between 4-8 ohms. The power of the amp can be as high as you like provided you dont abuse it. The power can also be lower than what the speaker needs if you dont listen loudly. So as you can see the requirements for matching are not hard to achieve. As for the sound quality, this is not something which can be matched other than using trial and error because nobody knows why amplifiers and speakers sound the way they do. |
@dave_b Wrote:
+1 I agree 100%! 😎 Mike |
Interesting. @ghdp... got it again. Mfrs need to steer clear, just wattage, etc. And unless very inexperienced, most audio buffs understand hard to drive loudspeakers and the amplification requirements, at least so far as power and stability are concerned. Also agree w/ @audiotroy so far as the order of system construction should occur. And as regards 'in-your-face' loudspeakers for concert reproduction, I like my ears. But my 'polite' Raidhos will move you around the room if you want to boogie.
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@kota1 Oh no the last thing I would want to do is be condescending to this group, I was serious, I was simply pointing out that it’s often impossible to objectively point out variables in an audiophile sound system as opposed to a professional sound system. We are dealing with art and not science and we don’t have the tools or language to describe it. That’s why it is futile to try to do an app for pairing audiophile equipment, not so much of a problem for professional equipment. You are up on every part of the audiophile community, I would say you know my frustrations better than anyone. When someone spends 100k on speakers and 50k on amps it’s not normal to boast about when it doesn’t sound good. I’m weird I do’t have much of an ego because I’m new. When someone buys SF Aida speakers and and 4 beautiful tube amps they are going to be sorry and probably won’t post how foolish they were. I’m going to LA with my dealer, and then to Axpona to get an idea about how different components sound, hope it works out. |
@donavabdear then one of you smart people would say here it is a, b, c, d. Are you saying the rest of us are not smart? That is a bit condescending no? Amp pairing just isn’t the problem you make it out to be. I gave you a great amp to bi-amp your Paradigms and you seem happy with the one you have, NP. I recommended an active speaker over the passives but you seem happy with your current speakers, NP. Everyone in this hobby goes through a similar process, I have seen very few threads of someone with a pair of luxury speakers that had trouble matching an amp. I think room acoustics are a far more common problem. If we were making an app for audiophile equipment paring what would the variables be? Personal taste, budget, and room size. |
@audiotroy Say we were doing a computer app designed to pair audio equipment, what parameters would we enter when entering info for cables? This of course is only an audiophile variable practically no professional recording engineer uses designer cables, we use hi quality cables that don't give us problems. Not to get into cable controversy but that is a good example of audiophiles inability to objectively pair systems because there are variables that are not objective in system pairing. Don't get mad at me I'm not a "cable denier" but cables are probably the most hard to nail down components of a high end sound system out there. |
@ghdprentice I think you're right and put your pinky finger on the problem. Ultimately recording studios don't record and mix music in the same way, have the same quality of engineers, and don't have the same budgets to make a foundation for recorded music to be evaluated on the same level anyway. With this in mind the best system should be the most natural sounding with the most headroom to accommodate different genres. I recorded audio for 35 years and I had to fight producers to allow me to do a better job recording their musicians and actors. To them -better- equals more money in production less money for me, this is true at any level of production. A good system should be able to play classical marches and smoky jazz with equal quality. |
@onhwy61 Exactly, I don't know how to pair components especially speakers/crossovers and amps (not talking about powered systems). How do you do it with some sort of objective rigor. @yyzsantabarbara "Figure out the room", to do that properly you need your system in there first, sure there will be mechanical acoustical principles you can guess at in the room but really if you want a first class system you need to know the dispersion of your speakers at what frequencies and how they play together in your room at least. I know something about that I wrote some of the first sound ray tracing math algorithms for JBL 30 years ago today it's still impossible to get ray tracing exactly right after the first and second reflections there are to many variables. @hilde45 I'm not trolling, It's embarrassing to know that no other groups besides religious cults step out in such absolute ignorance for something so important and expensive. No one can listen to even a fraction of the combinations of high end systems. There are no objective ways to pair components because generally they aren't made for each other. If they were (speakers and amps) at least we could trust the past design of the company and engineering team that produced the system to have some consistency, not component interaction but system interaction. I'm very serious. Look at it this way if audiophiles did have objective ways of knowing how to pair audio components then one of you smart people would say here it is a, b, c, d...if you cold get what you want when you spend loads of money on a very high end system you wouldn't have to swap equipment as much it wouldn't be a sport, on the forums. If we were making an app for audiophile equipment paring what would the variables be? |
op you are going about this the wrong way amps have a personality so do speakers some amps are warmer some are brighter you have to listen we have two amplifiers in our shop both are 300 watt class ab one sels foe 13k the othe 22k they dont sound the same
your best bet is doing research on electronics in your price range reading reviews that describe how the electronics sound not measure
our rule of thumb bright speakers require warmer electronics while warmer speakers require brighter electronics
our advice after 40 years 1 select the speakers first 2 match the electronics to the speakers 3 flavor by choosing source components dacs and cd players also have a personality r2r dacs are generally softer in the top end akm ess more detail
burr browns also tend towards wamth then choose cables power conditioning to tune sound further and of course trt the room for slap echo and first order reflection types Dave and Troy Audio intellect nj 40 year hifi veterans |
@ghdprentice Was your pinky sticking out while you were writing that response? We are contemporaries but I have never been satisfied with constraints. Live music lives and breaths dynamics…tea totaling doesn’t quite do it for me. Whether it’s Shostakovich’s 5th or Coltrane’s A Love Supreme, I need to feel it and connect to it …it’s a contact sport baby! |
An audiophile buys a pair of speakers for $50K or $100K then asks what amps make them sound best. If anyone is buying speakers that cost $50K+ they likely thought long and hard about a matching amp before banging their plastic. I think you asked the wrong question. The bigger problem is matching the speakers to the room, placing them, getting the room treated and dialed in, and of course doing this all with WAF, not the amp.
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I married my wife without matching her to any amplifiers and without consideration as to what cables work best. My only explanation as to why she married me was that she did so with her eyes closed. I purchased my integrated amp first and then shopped for speakers, but the reverse would have been a better strategy. BTW Ops system description is mind boggling. |
“An audiophile buys a pair of speakers for $50K or $100K then asks what amps make them sound best.” Well yes… an experienced one. Because this is the most effective and efficient approach. The speakers are the most important determinant of what you are going to hear. The reason a speaker mfg doesn’t specify an amp is there is no “best sound” for all. Different people value different aspects of sound quality. I have been an audiophile for fifty years and I assure you the sound qualities have changed very substantially over that time. My desires in the early1980’s were to make rock music slap me in the chest and play loud without distorting. My appreciation for sound quality now is leagues beyond those basic and unsophisticated requirements. As a speaker manufacturer you want to attract the most potential buyers without putting any off. If you recommend an expensive amp then less wealth buyers will be intimidated… if you recommend cheap ones then well healed ones will suspect the sound quality… suggest both and people with other equipment not expecting to purchase a new amp will not buy it. It is a loose loose proposition. They typically offer general wpc recommendations. Also, I have heard some absolutely ridiculous combinations of amp and speakers sound incredible. The Italian Viva tube amp (?4wpc)… powering huge Sound Lab Electrostatic Millenium-1 speakers. One of the most emotional (seductive) systems I have experienced. |