Speakers and amplifiers show audiophiles are confused.

@mijostyn Perfect then, what is the objective formula to choose an amplifier that will work in getting the most potential out of a speaker? You call me insecure, nope I have nothing to prove to anyone. Let's hear it.

@grislybutter LOL I've had a few very nice conversations with 911 owners that will follow me into a grocery store and comment on my car. Great people who love performance and great design. 

@onhwy61 Exactly, I don't know how to pair components especially speakers/crossovers and amps (not talking about powered systems). How do you do it with some sort of objective rigor. 

@yyzsantabarbara "Figure out the room", to do that properly you need your system in there first, sure there will be mechanical acoustical principles you can guess at in the room but really if you want a first class system you need to know the dispersion of your speakers at what frequencies and how they play together in your room at least. I know something about that I wrote some of the first sound ray tracing math algorithms for JBL 30 years ago today it's still impossible to get ray tracing exactly right after the first and second reflections there are to many variables. 

@hilde45 I'm not trolling, It's embarrassing to know that no other groups besides religious cults step out in such absolute ignorance for something so important and expensive. No one can listen to even a fraction of the combinations of high end systems. There are no objective ways to pair components because generally they aren't made for each other. If they were (speakers and amps) at least we could trust the past design of the company and engineering team that produced the system to have some consistency, not component interaction but system interaction. I'm very serious.

Look at it this way if audiophiles did have objective ways of knowing how to pair audio components then one of you smart people would say here it is a, b, c, d...if you cold get what you want when you spend loads of money on a very high end system you wouldn't have to swap equipment as much it wouldn't be a sport, on the forums.

If we were making an app for audiophile equipment paring what would the variables be?

@ghdprentice I think you're right and put your pinky finger on the problem. Ultimately recording studios don't record and mix music in the same way, have the same quality of engineers, and don't have the same budgets to make a foundation for recorded music to be evaluated on the same level anyway. With this in mind the best system should be the most natural sounding with the most headroom to accommodate different genres. I recorded audio for 35 years and I had to fight producers to allow me to do a better job recording their musicians and actors. To them -better- equals more money in production less money for me, this is true at any level of production. A good system should be able to play classical marches and smoky jazz with equal quality.

@audiotroy Say we were doing a computer app designed to pair audio equipment, what parameters would we enter when entering info for cables? This of course is only an audiophile variable practically no professional recording engineer uses designer cables, we use hi quality cables that don't give us problems. Not to get into cable controversy but that is a good example of audiophiles inability to objectively pair systems because there are variables that are not objective in system pairing. Don't get mad at me I'm not a "cable denier" but cables are probably the most hard to nail down components of a high end sound system out there. 

@kota1 Oh no the last thing I would want to do is be condescending to this group, I was serious, I was simply pointing out that it’s often impossible to objectively point out variables in an audiophile sound system as opposed to a professional sound system. We are dealing with art and not science and we don’t have the tools or language to describe it. That’s why it is futile to try to do an app for pairing audiophile equipment, not so much of a problem for professional equipment.

You are up on every part of the audiophile community, I would say you know my frustrations better than anyone. When someone spends 100k on speakers and 50k on amps it’s not normal to boast about when it doesn’t sound good. I’m weird I do’t have much of an ego because I’m new. When someone buys SF Aida speakers and and 4 beautiful tube amps they are going to be sorry and probably won’t post how foolish they were. I’m going to LA with my dealer, and then to Axpona to get an idea about how different components sound, hope it works out.

@kenjit As for the sound quality, this is not something which can be matched other than using trial and error because nobody knows why amplifiers and speakers sound the way they do.

That's what I'm talking about. The only way to get the most out of your speaker is to have an amp and crossover that are designed for that speaker and its drivers. Some say on this thread that high end audiophiles aren't confused, seems like trial and error over such expensive equipment is the definition of confusion.

@ghdprentice Love your story and it seems the perfect answer to what's natural. I recorded actors for a living and I would say natural sound is eating lunch with Anthony Hopkins and then recording him on set and having it sound the same. It never really is the same our brains always translate the real experience and when we turn on our music systems. 

I only know of one piece of hi-fi equipment that actually sounds like real life and that is my Steinway and Sons Spirio/r grand piano it will playback songs with a digital engine that has over a thousand levels of dynamic range per key stroke. It sounds exactly right, there are no microphones or speakers. 

Buying the biggest amp you can afford is like saying you should buy the biggest engine you can afford for driving. Some engines are huge and do a great job with low end power like tractors and earth movers, other engines do well at going fast, like dragsters. Just because the engine is big doesn't mean its power band is suited for your needs. This is a close analogy to amps speakers and crossovers. The amp (engine) needs to match the crossover (transmission) to ultimately reach acceleration (driver output). Big amps are not the most efficient best sounding solutions. Look at live sound amps they are getting smaller and more efficient, if bigger was better concerts would use huge amps, they were heading in that direction but not anymore. 
Today matching amps to speakers/crossovers is rooted in personal feelings and corporate marketing, the definition of confusion. 

@kota1 Ill check out those guys at Axpona if there is anyone else you want info from I’d be happy to ask them for you.

@invalid concerts today are done with very sophisticated equipment Mr. Carver had no idea would come. Top equipment is now digital and networked, speakers are powered and designed for specific sections of the crowd with DSP on every speaker. The very best sound I’ve ever heard was the concert system Harmon (JBL) had in their indoor demo theater, the next best sound was when I was working on the TV show “Roadies”, we had a huge concert system with all the newest tech as a permanent part of the concert set but it was practical, a system that could fill a 70k stadium but it was on a movie stage at Manhattan Beach Studios. We would play it very softly and it sounded great. This system had volume on a completely different level than any audiophile ever imagined. We never turned it up but even low it didn’t sound like million dollar speakers it was much more expensive than that, it wasn’t just loud it was exceptionally hi quality, Mayer speakers, DiGiCo mixers and all the outboard gear we wanted . After Clair bought ShowCo in 2000 everything changed in big concert sound.The wall of sound with out of phase mics was cutting edge 40 years ago but would never make it today, that’s why you don’t see it today. Roadies was produced by Cameron Crow and he could get any musicians he wanted so I got to record some the best new musicians there were 2 of them with #1 songs when we recorded them, I did get to record Halsey, Lucius, John Mellencamp, Eddie Vedder, and Jackson Brown among others, loved that show.

@grislybutter That's exactly what I'm saying, no one would buy a Lamborghini without knowing how the engine worked in the car, audiophiles buy the engine after they buy the car and cross their fingers how it will drive. I have a very nice sports car an AMG GT C Roadster it is a masterpiece of design. I've spent much more money on my sound system than that car and I'm expected to buy amps that are to be married with the speakers with no corresponding stats that will ensure the speakers and amps work together with the best performance, crazy.

@kota1 I did find a mistake when my electrician installed an extra power circuit for my listening room. I never thought professionals would make a mistake like that so I never thought to double check their work. My Paradigm 9hs have much more bass now, yes the powered low end sections work as they should. The strange thing was that my PS audio power regenerators (2x P20s) use the ground in which they are given and that was the problem so the phase of the power was incorrect with ½ of my amplifiers and there was voltage between the ground and neutral that were plugged into my new power circuit, never assume people know what they are doing I guess is the moral of that story. I'm really excited to listen to 200+ systems at AXPONA in the next few days I'll let you know which ones are the most impressive. 

@dedobot Music is emotional but can you think of any other hobby that so much money is spent on guesses. At least in gambling you might get a payoff. 

Manufactured are simply taking advantage of audiophiles, could be that the super cheep audio equipment coming in from China may change the culture between manufacturer and buyers.

@kota1 unless AXPONA changes my mind I'm going to get the HiFi Rise to go with my new PS Audio DAC mk2. 
 

I've never bought a piece of audio equipment of any kind because of a salesmen. Can't wait to see how my system stacks up to the ones at AXPONA. 

@grislybutter I think great cars and great audio have a lot in common. It is interesting that a car will get you from a to b and a sound system will let you hear the music but we pay for the the magic in the design. I know I've driven my AMG-GTc more than the designer just like audiophiles will take an audio system further than the mix engineer. 

So I'm about to register for AXPONA, I came here for only one reason to listen. Now everyone is saying you can't judge the system because of the bad acoustics of the listening rooms. @kota1 can find anything on the internet I don't need information or stats. The rooms cost $4k to rent so why not bring some acoustic material, no one expects perfection but if I can't listen why come here? 

@kingharold Ya know I think you're right, I do need to lighten up. I really got the wrong ideas about audiophiles I now think it's not about the search for the bet sound it simply a hobby like you said, there are so many obviously silly things audiophiles do but I'm now realizing that's ok.

Today I asked a super duper expensive cable company how their cables make a difference when the power gets to the house then out of the wall socket via a small connection with an Edison plug then connected to an amp then to a fuse then PC tracers or internal cables that aren't near as good as the cable you're selling? He said I have no idea I'm an engineer (for the company) doesn't seem possible to me. We laughed and I said thanks for the honesty. I guess that was an audiophile moment. Thanks for being kind @kingharold 

@kingharold Also here at AXPONA it is clear there is a world of BS that the marketeers feed to the people, some of the most expensive systems sounded horrible and it wasn't the rooms they were huge and sounded fine. There were million dollar systems that were so bad I wondered if they were a joke, really. One smaller system obviously had something wrong with it at about 2k it was probably 18db to hot clearly a problem. I mentioned it to one of the people who worked there and he said he knew but that's how the boss wanted it, so strange. There are companies taking advantage of audiophiles but I'm not going to gripe about it anymore because I'm turning over a new leaf. (I hope)

@kota1 so I spoke to Dave an engineer from Bryson unfortunately they didn't have their powered systems here so we talked about powered speakers and active crossovers he fully agreed that's how high end systems should be designed. He interestedly said their system was more expensive to build and design the said the crossovers were $4k and many people thought that was to much, I got the impression that he didn't have high hopes for the future. He knew how it should go just as you and I would agree but that philosophy doesn't seem to be so popular now. I also spake to Bill who makes "Add Power" for quite a while, sorry my friend he is playing on the outskirts of science, maybe his device works but it's not for the reason he gave me, he was a very nice guy. 

I heard the SF Aida's powered by Bolder it was also over a million dollar system ($192,000 in cables alone) they of course sounded great but not as good as either of the Wilson's, (Alexa 5 or the Alex 5) or of course the Estelon's my favorite was the Wilson Alexa 5s powered by Audio Research, these speakers are less than half as much as the Aida's, I'm happy. 

My favorite speakers at AXPONA were the Wilson Alexia v at $67K the Wilson Alexx Vs sounded best but are more than twice the price. The Magico's were great and the Sonus Faber Aida's were disappointing. 

Bryston and Carver didn't have their own rooms they were parts of other manufactures so they weren't really featured. As I said the most surprising speakers were called Title that were powered by Bryston amps, also the JBL speakers were great, I was walking buy and remembered the sound from studios I heard 30 years ago in the studios and so I walked in and sure enough it was JBL speakers they were made just like old ones were, but at about 1/8th the price.

Other than the Title speakers with the Bryson amps for $8k I'd say the JBL L100's were the best for the money. 

@phusis obviously you are an above average audiophile. I came back from AXPONA amazed at the BS that was knee deep. The engineers were legit but the sales people (with a few great exceptions) were generally all making the mistake that the speakers were somehow in charge or could fix the studio mix. Strangest thing, it was funny that I was with an engineer who had mixed and owned studios for 50 years last week and he had the opposite view his first thought was "you never fix it in the mix" meaning the sound is made in the recording not the mix and it would be absurd to think the speakers had anything to do with the sound of the recording. From a professional perspective the end user sound system is simply a looking glass into the studio, this may be why there are so few musician and audio engineer audiophiles. 
 

Your arguments are exactly right and it astounds me that more people don't understand what you are saying and what Bryson is trying to do. Fighting a religion is never very rewarding. 

Hi @kota1 The speakers were the L100s they had another pair in the room that were a little smaller but both sounded great and had that compression driver tone that only JBL has it was great! After listening to literally hundreds of speakers you get a very clear average even among the uber expensive speakers the JBLs were a breath of fresh air, sounding different may not be so good but the sound of those was wonderful and didn’t have that horrible nasal sound that to small of a midrange driver gives, JBL has always been cutting edge in research and acoustics it showed.

You know I went to the show to listen to the Sonus Faber Aidas and they were set up with the best of everything probably the 2nd most expensive setup of the show at about 1.3M the next door over was the Wilsons Alexx V and the Wilson Alexia V, the Alexia V had tube amps and they sounded the best the Alexx Vs had more sheer ripping low end but the Alexa Vs at half the price were more musical. Amazing how much difference amps make teemed up with the right speaker.

@kota1 Yes there were some beautiful MC901 amps being shown off with beautiful equipment and B and W 801 speakers in a big room, it was horrible. The B and W 801s were so harsh compared to everything else it was off the charts, you really get a very strong sense of what to expect when listening to a first class systems one after the other this one was an abomination, I'm sure it was because of the speakers not the amps, the low end and midrange of the 801s sounded great the high frequency was a dentist drill. I think the amp did a great job in creating punch with the SS circuitry and then transitioning to the mid and HF. In another room the hybrid McIntosh amps did very well with the small new Golden Ear speakers they sounded great and really filled the room in a surprising way, I've never listened to Golden Ear speakers before but it was clear these speakers came from a lot of trickle down technology, the Macintosh amps did very well.

The best amps at the show to me were very clear, huge class A, I'm sure there were some great new class D amps (that are the future) but it is a big risk for a manufacture to use an unproven amp in such an important event.