Speaker recommendation $10-20K (with some requirements!)
Recent lessons of the developing audiophile:
Don’t buy speakers without demonstration
Speaker break in is real...but will not fundamentally change DNA
Really appreciate the wisdom of this forum!
I recently changed my old B&W Matrix 803 Series 2 with new Dynaudio Countour 60i’s. A number of you helped on my: How important is speaker break-in? post - thanks! The Dyn’s are not fully broken in, but I think I can see where this is going: They have great soundstage, detail, and bass. In comparison, the B&Ws sound smaller, thinner, slightly less detailed overall, and do not throw big bass. (The B&W’s are supplemented nicely with a quality subwoofer, but that still sounds a little more like component parts stitched together, than the way the Dyn’s deliver an integrated output).
The problem? The Dyn’s are hard in the mids and highs, and my (aging) ears are very sensitive to that. I have some tinnitus that I usually don’t notice...unless a hard or ringing sound sets it off, and these speakers are doing it big time. Immediately fatiguing (unless the recording is just somebody plucking at a bass guitar). The B&Ws are pretty sweet in the mid-range and most recordings don’t trip my hard/edgy line. So, I WILL go demo before buying this time, but I am hoping this group can help narrow the search a bit, and I am letting budget drift up if that helps get it done. Here are constraints and goals, and equipment:
*Absolutely must be smooth and silky - not hard, edgy, ringing, brittle, etc. - in the mids and highs. Ironically, I tend to listen mostly to heavier music, but I care mostly about sweet and detailed delivery of delicate sounds, like vocals and piano. For say, heavy metal, I don’t care if the system reproduces it perfectly, only that it tilts away from ragged, ringing tones as much as possible.
*After that, I want a big, authoritative sound with meaningful bass, detail - everything one would want in a speaker, but compromises can be made.
*Room Treatments. Room is medium size, does not have treatments, and it is what it is. It is not a dedicated audio room, so I can’t start throwing stuff up on the walls (WAF). (The room does have the benefit of being wood floor applied directly to concrete (with a rug), so at least the floor doesn’t resonate. And it has 2 layers of sheetrock in places). I will live with my room compromises, but the sound coming out the speakers themselves does matter and I want to focus on that.
*Prefer tower style for aesthetics and fit, but open to boxy (e.g. Harbeth) if that’s where I need to go.
* Equipment: All digital inputs to ARC DAC 8 -> ARC Ref5se preamp -> Bryston 7BSST2 monoblocks (600W). I get that the whole system matters, and that Brystons are supposed to be a little hard. But this problem really started with the new speakers, so that is where I am focusing. If you really think different amps or something are going to turn the Dynaudio’s silky sweet in the mids and high, please say that with some conviction and support.
As always, really appreciate the greater knowledge of this community!
I'd suggest starting at maybe 5 kHz, and use the sine wave generator. Judge whether the tone is above or below your tinnitus zone, and adjust accordingly until you home in on it.
This might be useful information in your speaker search.
I understand your problem. I suffer from tinnitus as well. I can highly recommend the Legacy Audio Focus SE's to fit your criteria. Big and bold (they play to 18hz) yet able to be delicate and lively. They are also easy to drive. You owe it to yourself to listen to a pair.
Big Harbeths (40.2), MBL120 (don't know if it will rock but smooth? Oh yeah...), Ohm speakers, German Acoustics. Focusing on omni's for more placement options. Season's Greetings!
I also have some tinnitus, and recently demoed a few speakers. I found most were to bright for my liking. I currently have a pair of Focal Sopra 2’s with a Prima Luna tube amp. I absolutely love them, it took some time to break in as speakers do. I lean to a warm sound, it’s what attracts me and keep me from listening fatigue. So I run a second system in my record room. I had my old classic Jbl L 100 down there. I always enjoyed them, and for nostalgia purposes I hated to part with them. But the Focal’s spoiled me, every time I listened to the Jbl they were not even in the same stratosphere. So off I went and listened to a bunch of stuff. I was told the Focal Spectral 40th anniversary , were very different, but similar in Focals characteristics. Once hearing them after about 10 different other pairs. I decided they were the ones for me. There was some hesitation, thinking maybe I was crazy not changing it up. Though I was told Focal designed the Spectral 40’s to sound more Rock n roll, like speakers from the past still with great detail. So anyway that’s what I chose. They haven’t arrived yet, and was able to get a nice discount them. Msrp 10k. I suggest you go give them a listen. Hood luck with your search.
My Dyn 60i produce no listening fatigue at all. Smoothe like butter. Your description doesn't fit the sound profile of my speakers. Im powering them with Naim equipment. Could it be that the speakers aren't happily married to your pre/amplification?
It is surprising that the Dynaudios seem harsher than the 803s. I have to agree with keithr. I own old B&W DM-302 bookshelves and have heard the B&W line-up consistently over 25 years. I've always thought my Dynaudio Sapphires were smoother, the Excite X-12 monitors okay. 800Ds are nice but my listening ends soon enough (ouch). And it's strange you had no apparent amp issue with B&W...
I agree with twoleftears that Dyn had gone 'forward sounding'. That's been my experience at RMAF over the many years I've attended (and volunteered when feeling generous). Vandies are nice and don't seem to beat up your ears as well.
My quick recommendation for audio bliss for you would be akin to: used Raidho D1's or D2s (D1.1s at $10.5), two SVS SB-3000 subs ($2 or $2.2 both), and one DSPeaker Anti-Mode 2.0 room correction system ($800?) with digital equalizer if desired (yes-use it, don't overdo it).
At under $14k you will enjoy the tweeter that made me ditch the full range Sapphires even with the wonderful Esotar II tweeter which I had love to pieces for five years. It is supremely detailed and (for good or bad, purists) I have never, ever heard sibilance or harshness from any program material. Raidho sound is detailed and lush and beautiful.
The DSPeaker unit will transform and mate the the SB-3000 subs for rock-solid tight base to 30Hz and I'd suggest high passing at 70 or 80 to the Raidhos to allow them a bit more dynamics. If you can live with low dynamic peaks to the low 90s, (and kinda full range with the subs).
Get ready to beat me up for my choices or lack of funds. I've been using a the external loop on a W4S STI-1000 integrated with the DSP unit and it is dead/inaudible silent, and the 500-1000 watts do wonders for the old used D2s that I got in late 2016 (after trading the dealer my Sapphires, X-12s, Scansonic MB2.5s and $too).
I was using an R.E.L. Britannia B1 sub crossed at 28Hz and achieved beautiful flat response to 25Hz due to the port I believe. I just got a new SB-3000 and finally I seem able to use a high pass to the D2s of 70 Hz and a low pass of 55 on the sub for non-identifiable blending. I was might impressed at that $1000 SB-3000, very awesome and tight. That high pass to the D2s has definitely given me more peak dynamics (4-5 dB?) and I'm getting even happier.
Oh yeah, Harbeth's can make my toes tingle too! And great other suggestions listed above by twoleftears.
Another description for ‘current trend’ could be ‘revealing’ and I also have a pair of speakers that get very mixed reviews here because with lean components it’s way to much of a good thing, but I put the right integrated in the system and I’m having my cake and eating it too. Changing speakers can just leave you with a different set of disappointments.
We were brystom dealers and it is the combo that is not working also arc gear is not warm
The contours are not bright also this also leads to how are u feeding the dac? A good server can dramatically improve a systems digital playbacks sense of smoothness
Thanks, server is a Bryston BDP2. Based on the combined wisdom of the group, my path is clear: The Dynaudios will be replaced with....a new preamp, DAC, server, Tara labs cables, Panduit power cords, and new acoustic wing to my home. :-) But seriously, I will take a harder look at total system before making any decisions from here. Thanks all.
twoleftears thank you for helping me narrow down my search for the most refined, genteel, well-mannered, mild, sophisticated, and delicate classic British loudspeakers, so I can get back to listening to raw black metal. :-)
But seriously, I find sound quality really matters even in metal. Clearly with slower, well produced fare like OM, and with my tinnitus, I can't take thrashy or raw stuff at all unless well-presented.
We were brystom dealers and it is the combo that is not working also arc gear is not warm
The contours are not bright also this also leads to how are u feeding the dac? A good server can dramatically improve a systems digital playbacks sense of smoothness
@mathiasmingus I heard the Contour 60's at Command Performance in Washington DC. No reason to believe the -i iteration is massively different. It conforms to my model of the "modern" loudspeaker sound. Thankfully, there are still a few brands that do not chase after the bandwagon in an attempt to jump on. I compared the Spendor Classic 100 with the Harbeth 40.2 and while there were many more similarities than differences (both great speakers), I thought the Spendors (admittedly under different conditions) a tad more, er, muscular, which I thought would suit your listening preferences better. I ended up with 40.2s and am extremely happy, as tilted up speakers send me running from the room. My number three choice would be Vienna Acoustics The Music; I myself seriously considered the Liszt after an earlier flirtation with the Beethoven Baby Grands. Again, VA bucks the trend. And yes, room acoustics, cables, and all the rest do make a difference, but swopping one make/model of a speaker for another will make a bigger one, one that is likely to ameliorate your current problems. I would have recommended the 40.2/40.3 only conventional wisdom rarely mentions Harbeth and heavy metal in the same breath. The ATC brand sonic signature is somewhat removed from the classic British sound exemplified by Harbeth, Spendor Classic, Graham, Falcon, and a few others. BTW Graham also has a cousin to the 40.2 and the Classic 100 in the LS 5/5, a fascinating speaker that I have regretfully not been able to audition so far.
I read your description and you echoed my listening tastes and sound room size. You should look at the Vandersteen Quatro as they have pistonic drivers and the Carbon tweeter is a big deal! I spent a lot of time listening at my dealer before purchasing. Can’t underscore enough the importance of a good audition. These evaluations do not need to be in your home as my experience has been your described qualities are evident anywhere. Be sure the demo uses a selection of your own recordings. If they have your electronics, even better, or take them in with you if you want to get a workout.
Try reducing toe-in. Experiment with blankets and pillows to see how much can be fixed by more floor coverings. Include between and behind the speakers. This seems to be an area important for hard treble.
If none of these work, talk to Fritz. He'll make you bespoke speakers.
I’ve never heard Dyns sound harsh in 20 years. In fact, B&W has usually sounded bright. I suppose your tinnitus frequency may be something, don’t know. My tinnitus is at 8khz iirc.
I just talked to the owner of a local audio shop, and he thinks I have a string a bright-leaning components - in particular the ARC pre - that are bad for a person with tinnitus. Maybe the fact that the Dyns are new, exploit the room more, plus that upstream situation, puts me over the line, and the smaller, 25-year old B&W's were loose enough to keep me below the line. Maybe no fault of the Dynaudios here.
I’ve never heard Dyns sound harsh in 20 years. In fact, B&W has usually sounded bright. I suppose your tinnitus frequency may be something, don’t know. My tinnitus is at 8khz iirc.
Nobody will recommend it, there is an unspoken rule to never mention the standout solution, even when - "smooth silky midrange and top end, sweet and detailed delivery of delicate sounds, like vocals and piano, After that, I want a big, authoritative sound with meaningful bass, detail - everything one would want in a speaker, but compromises can be made"- yes compromises can be made, and will with all the other suggestions. Big time.
"For say, heavy metal, I don’t care if the system reproduces it perfectly, only that it tilts away from ragged, ringing tones as much as possible." Yes well guess what you can have that too.
"I get that the whole system matters, and that Brystons are supposed to be a little hard. But this problem really started with the new speakers, so that is where I am focusing."
Right. You know the speakers started it so out they go. What I'm talking, if you hear any hard edge, or lack of detail for that matter, it is upstream.
The speaker that combines the dynamics and efficiency of a good horn with the speed and detail of a stat, with the cohesive one-ness of a Maggie, the smoothness of Vandersteen and delivers it all up on a great big plate stacked with the meat and potatoes it takes to deliver on the big powerful stuff.
Do I have to say it? Do I really have to say it? Everyone knows, and yet all the same old same old. Is this a website or an echo chamber?
millercarbon, could you summarize that for me? I couldn't tell if the point is:
I'm asking for the sun and the moon in a convenient package, and it doesn't exist.
There is an obvious choice that is unspoken (Do divulge, please!).
The Dynaudio's are fine, and any hard edge is almost certainly upstream (even though not apparent with my B&W's??).
Nobody will recommend it, there is an unspoken rule to never mention the standout solution, even when - "smooth silky midrange and top end, sweet and detailed delivery of delicate sounds, like vocals and piano, After that, I want a big, authoritative sound with meaningful bass, detail - everything one would want in a speaker, but compromises can be made"- yes compromises can be made, and will with all the other suggestions. Big time.
"For say, heavy metal, I don’t care if the system reproduces it perfectly, only that it tilts away from ragged, ringing tones as much as possible." Yes well guess what you can have that too.
"I get that the whole system matters, and that Brystons are supposed to be a little hard. But this problem really started with the new speakers, so that is where I am focusing."
Right. You know the speakers started it so out they go. What I'm talking, if you hear any hard edge, or lack of detail for that matter, it is upstream.
The speaker that combines the dynamics and efficiency of a good horn with the speed and detail of a stat, with the cohesive one-ness of a Maggie, the smoothness of Vandersteen and delivers it all up on a great big plate stacked with the meat and potatoes it takes to deliver on the big powerful stuff.
Do I have to say it? Do I really have to say it? Everyone knows, and yet all the same old same old. Is this a website or an echo chamber?
Show her the room of @mahgister ; she will gladly accept almost anything....
Got it! :-) I thought I was having trouble find the link to mahgister's OTHER room, which would model stylish options for my wife. Not the room that looks like my workbench after my vacuum cleaner exploded.
@mathaismingus, the advise coming in is essentially good analysis with ceiling and floor first reflection points problem areas. But Cables can and will (my personal experience) cause the very effect that you are describing. Not only Speaker Cables but Interconnects as well. And also brings all the upstream gear into question ...
Your ears aren't deceiving you. In their last two or three generations/iterations, Dynaudio has gone the way of all too many speaker manufacturers, creating exactly the kind of tilted up sound that impresses in the showroom and wears on the listener in the home. It's rare, but the Spendor Classic 100 would suit you to a T. Second up, you could look at a Vienna Acoustics The Music. And if all else fails, Vandersteen would be the fall-back position.
Thanks LeftEars. What do you think about ATCs and Harbeths of similar level to the Spendor classics....I think of them as similar (with limited basis). I think it is odd that there is not more consistency of opinion on this topic. What you say makes sense. But so many other knowledgeable people immediately go to room and amps. But the thing that has changed is speakers....and most of what I hear seems to be a function of the speakers, while the other things of course matter.
Your ears aren't deceiving you. In their last two or three generations/iterations, Dynaudio has gone the way of all too many speaker manufacturers, creating exactly the kind of tilted up sound that impresses in the showroom and wears on the listener in the home. It's rare, but the Spendor Classic 100 would suit you to a T. Second up, you could look at a Vienna Acoustics The Music. And if all else fails, Vandersteen would be the fall-back position.
Thanks. The good news is that I got a really sweet deal on the speakers, so I won't lose if I switch. They make audiophile rugs?! :-) I did pretty good to get monster speakers past my wife, I don't know if I will get too far with room treatments!
How much are you going to loose , selling your speakers ?I would take half of that money and try room acoustic. GIK acoustic Art pannels. Synergistic Researche HFT An ´´ audiophile ´´ rug
I have the same issue ,with my new Audiovectors R6 ( AMT tweeter) , and waiting for some acoustic pannels to be deliver.
Thanks. My ears may just be very sensitive about ringing tones, as you seem to be saying that most high-end speakers (including Dyns) should not have this issue. I have played with toe, and only one of them is exposed to much side reflection, and the fundamental nature of the sounds does not change - just small improvements with optimal placement. So, you seem to be a vote for: More patience on break in period, and try different amps. Thanks
Yes, def try to demo a few integrateds or combo's to see if the problem persists as what you're hearing is seldom a complaint of Dyn's That said speakers voiced with your criteria that I've heard sonus faber Vienna acoustics vandersteen meridian dsp Raidho bout a hundred others.
Do you have placement flexibility? move speakers from side reflection points, play with toe in. The C60i I haven't yet heard, but the C60 was really good if you had enough room for them.
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