Sound Quality

@upstateaudiophile I have run into this before. I thought a CD played via a CD player sounded slightly better as streaming music via the LAN connection on my Gustard R26. I haven't played a CD and compared it to the Aurender N200 and Briscati M1 SEII and probably won't at this point as I don't currently have a CD player and am not planning on purchasing one in the near future, I'm done for now. 

@upstateaudiophile

funny, just before I read your post I read this one: you may find it interesting

cd vs streaming

edit: don't know if that link worked- it is the post by @jmeyers on June 1

I’ve come full circle here and returned to CDs for digital and use Tidal for discovery or if I just want convenience. CD in a high end transport sounds superior to me. That includes DSD which I have also streamed through my DAC.

I’m no expert but something is affecting the fidelity when it is uploaded, stored, sent via internet, computer, and finally DAC vs simply read CD and send to DAC. The litmus test says the latter. 

@lalitk 

You are most welcome. 😊 Glad you are enjoying that unique recording. 🎸🎶

“I am riding the WAV!”
Enjoy the ride my friend! 
@mclinnguy

Thank you for your recommendation. I bought the DSD256 download…loving the album and spine tingling hair SQ.

@larryi yeah i heard about it too, but cant seem to find the information. It is theoretically possible, if computer is slow and memory is limited. Maybe old iPod with hard disk, remember those? I cant imagine modern programs decompressing file in small pieces, it should be enough memory to allocate enough space and decomp the entire file before playback. On the other hand, i have seen manufacturers skimping on CPUs and emloying puny ARMs in music servers…

@navyachts Remember also, that everything on Internet is sliced into chunks and compressed before transmission and decompressed back. Bandwidth is money so all data is sliced into chunks, wrapped into packets, transmitted frequently out of order and reconstructed at the receiving end. Local network might be the same. File is never transmitted as file in a single chunk. There is no “stream” from Tidal to you, traffic is all pieces often out of order. So there :-)

Also want to point out that at least in the early days, DSD promoters were caught cheating by juicing up DSD releases via significant added EQ. 

Also, while talking about DSD, please check out the small but mighty Blue Coast Records.

@mikhailark @larryi OK, thanks, I am riding the WAV!

The theory is that the act of decompressing a file somehow affects the sound by creating temporal delays resulting in jitter.  It a few years ago but someone claimed blind listening tests showed thar WAV files were superior in sound.  I don’t know from any listening tests I’ve participated in so I went with WAV just in case there is something to this (storage is cheap).  The manufacturer of my server—Naim—recommends WAV files, another reason to go in that direction for me.

@sandthemall - lossless IS lossless. Bit to bit. Decompressed file is exactly the same as it was before compression. Think about zip compression. Your word document is exactly the same after decompression, nothing is lost. Similarly, you can zip Wav files and then unzip it and it will come out exactly the same.

There is strong math behind lossless compression. It does not drop any bits.

@audioisnobiggie The N200 sounds fine. Thanks for your thoughts on WAV over FLAC. I am re-ripping my CD library in WAV files and using dBpoweramp to do so.

I ordered the inexpensive DSD sampler from Native DSD and give it a try.

You make it sound like the N200 is just not that good :(

If you are finding that streaming FLAC sounds better than WAV files, something is seriously wrong.  WAV files are the original unaltered format that anything else has to try to sneak in being unnoticeably different from, since people are cheapskates about letting their collections take up space.

I use Audirvana on PC, and I can directly compare streaming FLAC vs local WAV's.   While the streamed FLAC's sound slightly muddy compared to local, the FLAC part is agitating even locally compared to uncompressed.  Local WAV files are so noise free, that I feel like falling asleep with them compared to FLAC.

I also find that local files on ssd's sound quieter than mechanicals, but I have to admit, both sound like I'm getting more confident reads than optical disks ever gave, with all of that ECC and making sure you only record at 4x business.  I theorized that a thumb drive would beat my 2.5 ssd, due to lower power draw from not trying to max out SATA speed, but I could tell no difference between the two.  I ended up getting a little square drive that's about the size of 2 thumb drives, with a little cable, instead of the thumb drive, because it can read and write at around 900mb/s, given the chance.

If you still have cd's to rip, nothing on PC could beat Exact Audio Copy, thanks to it's extreme error detection and correction capability.  I haven't heard of newer software that can beat it, but since most people are probably already done with ripping, I doubt anything will come out that beats it, either.

DSD is nice and natural, but it's too bad that since they can't be edited, you will probably only get remastered old tapes and live performances that way.  At least lots of gear is throwing in dsd decoding chips also into their designs.

Listening to "The Chicks" for a change, and wow, talk about life wasn't already them!  Maybe I'll buy a new high purity cable, so that​​​​​​​ t​​​​​​​he rest​​​​​​​ of t​​​​​​​he women find out​​​​​​​ they'll have a hard time beating them.

@jastralfu Thanks! I don't think you can go wrong with either.

@navyachts no apologies necessary my friend.  Hope you are enjoying your new streamer.  I’ve been on the hunt for one myself.  Not sure whether to get an Aurender or an Innuos.

@jastralfu Yes, you are correct, my bad, I'm sorry.

At the risk of sounding like a pedantic a**hole, there is a difference between an SD card (secure digital) and an SSD (solid state drive).  The OP keeps using the term SD card.  I realize the confusion has been cleared up, as it was asked twice, but it’s important to use the correct language in order to get relevant answers.

@lalitk @mclinnguy thank you for the recommendations!

@navyachts 

Any good recommendations for a DSD 256 CD to purchase for a test drive, maybe something a little more obscure that the run of the mill "Top 40"?

Little Weevil

Yes, the above recording is definitely not top 40 😁 One guy, one guitar, recorded live non-stop in a small room.

I bought it, I like it, if you want a pure DSD recording this is it. Read the recording process, sample the tracks to see if it appeals. Looks like it is 15% off, and one more day for 20% storewide for Native DSD’s 10 year anniversary sale.

@navyachts 

I agree but the price of admission is totally worth it (to me). You can try a sampler like the one below, 

https://www.nativedsd.com/product/2xhdft1248-audiophile-analog-collection-vol-3/

I was looking at the NativeDSD site, stuffs not cheap!

@lalitk 

"First off, I am pleading ignorance here, so my apologies up front, but I need some help on figuring out what this digital stuff is all about" 

Need I say more?

File yes, not CD.

“Any good recommendations for a DSD 256 CD to purchase for a test drive”@navyachts 

Are you asking recommendation for a DSD256 file? I am not aware of any CD’s that has DSD256 resolution. 

I am ripping, what CDs I have now, in WAV - Uncompressed. Then will transfer them to the SD card on the N200. I also have a few hi-res albums from HD Tracks to add as well. 

Any good recommendations for a DSD 256 CD to purchase for a test drive, maybe something a little more obscure that the run of the mill "Top 40"?

@audphile1 

Use NDSD and feed it Native DSD from N200. 

Will do, thanks!

when you buy a hi-res album compare the sound of purchased file vs streaming of the same album

I have done this in sorts, but I need to do it again when I'm better organizes (ha, ha)

I am still recovering from the new OS install from trying to access the N200's SD card, (aurender/aurender) beyond lol...

@navyachts when you buy a hi-res album compare the sound of purchased file vs streaming of the same album. Just curious. I just don’t think purchasing downloads is necessary but hey…you can try and see if it’s worth it for you

@mapman @ghdprentice fer’ sure, I’m sure this was the case. I downloaded the contents of the N200 SD card to an old laptop (for reference ) formatted the drive and have added my HD Tracks hi-res files that I have purchased in the past.

I’ll use Tidal/Quboz/whatever to discover music the use the SD card to add new purchases on in the future. 
 

Thanks all!

@navyachts Bricasti had two modes to play DSD - NDSD (native dsd) and PCM. Use NDSD and feed it Native DSD from N200. 
Whether DSD sounds better than hi-res it’s for you to decide. It will sound different. To me DSD typically sounds softer than the redbook or hi-res files. The sound is more analog like but to me it lacks bite with usually smoothed over transients. It totally depends on your preference and the master you’re listening to. Don’t assume by default that DSD is better sounding. My experience with 4 different DACs is that it sounds different. You will hear it. 

“I need to experiment with all this myself first!”

@navyachts
That’s the mantra I believe in and it has paid huge dividends. As far buying media, I selectively buy CD’s, DSD downloads and Vinyl. The primary reason to buy is to enjoy exemplary sound quality that is simply unmatched by any of the streaming platforms including Qobuz. For most folks, Qobuz is good enough. It really comes down to your system whether it’s good enough to appreciate the nuances between DSD downloads and CD rips vs files being streamed from Qobuz / Tidal.

One good source to buy DSD is NativeDSD.com. BTW, I am digging the view from your man cave! 

@navyachts Native DSD

20% off until May 17 😃

@mclinnguy Cool, thanks for checking that for me! I have a few 192 & 96 kHz - 24 bit files that I purchased from HD Tracks but no DSD files, so I will have to source some out and give them a try. Where did you buy your Patricia Barber's Clique DSD 512 from?

Agree with @ghdprentice If the files on the drive categorically sound clearly worse than streamed equivalent at CD res, most likely the file contents is  “compromised” in some way. Pretty much anything is possible when producing digital music files FBOFW. Even if they are stored at cd resolution that does not necessarily mean something was not lost or changed significantly somewhere in their history.

@navyachts I’ll let @audphile1 answer the question as to whether DSD sounds better on the Bricasti or not, but looking at the specs these are your options:

https://www.bricasti.com/en/consumer/m1s2_specs.php

so yes, using USB (which you will) you can play up to 256DSD

edit: he already did answer this question: 

Few things based on my experience…it depends on the recording. Not all DSD files are by default better sounding than redbook or hi-res streaming. It also depends on the DAC. You will be able to feed the M1S2 a native DSD signal and take full advantage of the Bricasti DSD DAC.

@mclinnguy so you can buy DSD files and play them as is, you don't need software to do so, just a capable DAC

@audphile1 will the M1 play DSD files? They will sound better, right?

there really isn't the need to rip CDs, I guess. That is unless you have something rare that can't be found online. Any other benefits you can muster?

@navyachts that is pretty much my philosophy.

The onboard hardrive is not just for ripped CD's but for music bought online you want files for. For example I can stream Patricia Barber's Clique in hi-res through Qobuz anytime, but since I wanted the highest fidelity possible I bought the DSD512 version online. I have some a few dozen Native DSD albums in .dsf format but my current DAC doesn't yield a sonic advantage to these over regular redbook or hi-res versions streamed, and using an AES cable from my streamer I cannot play them anyway, so they sit on the hard drive unused. If one has a DAC that favours DSD files like T+A gear they may want plenty of .dsf files for critical listening sessions. 

@audphile1 said they were waiting for parts, nothing firm as of yet. Nice thing I found out, is it's already an SE unit, so saving some a bit of coin there. It's just the M1S2 and display to do now.

@navyachts so what’s the ETA on the DAC?

@ricred1 for sure, I need to experiment with all this myself first!

navyachts,

"@ricred1 Cool, but I’m giving this a bit of second thought. Honestly (as some have suggested) with all the streaming content that’s out there, there really isn’t the need to rip CDs, I guess. That is unless you have something rare that can’t be found online. Any other benefits you can muster?"

I use streaming to discover new music and then purchase the cd. In my system ripped CDs sound better than streaming, but to each their own.

@navyachts 

I prefer WAV…I just don’t like the notion of unnecessary decompression (unfolding) process with FLAC files. Storage (SSD) cost is no longer an issue so why bother ripping CD’s in a lossy FLAC format. 

@ricred1 Cool, but I'm giving this a bit of second thought. Honestly (as some have suggested) with all the streaming content that's out there, there really isn't the need to rip CDs, I guess. That is unless you have something rare that can't be found online. Any other benefits you can muster?

I have the Antipodes K10 ripper that rips straight to my Antipodes Oladra’s SSD. The Antipodes K10 triggers the ripping software in my Oladra. I place a CD in the tray and close it, and ripping starts automatically. When the CD has been ripped, the tray automatically opens. 

@lalitk I ripped a CD using dBpoweramp in both WAV and FLAC and listening with on the same computer that I ripped, with a pair of earphones, I couldn't hear a difference.

Files were the same size in in a lossless uncompressed state.

Do you prefer WAV?

OK. 

“FLAC it is”

@navyachts 

I would rip and compare FLAC vs WAV and see if you are able to tell the difference between the two files 😊

Sounds good. I already purchased the dBpoweramp software, thanks all!

@navyachts I use a $39 LG external cd-rom drive. It’s not super fast though. The dbppweramp has validation built in and will display the results if any issues. So far I ran it without any problems. 

OP:  Faster is better, but you do want your ripping software to validate the results. I have had situations when the speed was too fast and had to slow the ripper down to ensure reliable transfers.

OK thanks gentlemen, FLAC it is! Further to ripping, is any old CD rom drive, like that of an old laptop OK? Or is it the better the drive, the better the rip?

OP:

FLAC is the most common, and offers good compression.  You can adjust the level of compression based on how fast you want it to rip.  There's only so much it can compress though, so there is also the issue of diminishing returns and that disk storage is really cheap.

Unless you are using Apple devices there's no reason to use ALAC.