rvpiano, maybe I missed it but did you mention what CD player you have? Someone else had a similar experience as yours using an Esoteric K-05x player which is obviously difficult to match with most if not all streaming devices. It needs to be apple to apple comparison.
Sound Quality of red book CDs vs.streaming
I’ve found that the SQ of my red book CDs exceeds that of streaming using the identical recordings for comparison. (I’m not including hi res technology here.)
I would like to stop buying CDs, save money, and just stream, but I really find I enjoy the CDs more because of the better overall sonic performance.
I stream with Chromecast Audio using the same DAC (Schiit Gumby) as I play CDs through.
I’m wondering if others have had the same experience
I would like to stop buying CDs, save money, and just stream, but I really find I enjoy the CDs more because of the better overall sonic performance.
I stream with Chromecast Audio using the same DAC (Schiit Gumby) as I play CDs through.
I’m wondering if others have had the same experience
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Just get the steaming service and be done with it. I have a "family plan" from Tidal with 5 users, so it comes to $6 month/user. I am by no means wealthy, but that is a trivial expense for me. I just recently subscribed to Idagio. So far I have been very impressed. Searching (classical) is much better than Tidal (Tidal is great for pop). If you have enough information about the specific performance you want, you will either find it or they don't have it. I still buy records and CDs. But I am constantly amazed by what is available through my streaming services. PS: the streaming services I use stream up to 16/44.1. I am perfectly content with that. I used to use Classical Archives (excellent service) that streams 320 kbps. Yes, I can tell the difference, but only if I really concentrate on sound quality and listen for specific sound signatures of compressed files. That is exhausting, and I'll wager that if you tested me I would be less discerning than I think I am. It's like the difference between having 22 vs. 23 marshmallows in you bowl of Lucky Charms. But if you obsess on it, it could ruin your listening experience. YMMV. |
Having music free of any compression, gives you more space to listen to your music louder, and your brain likes it, and enjoys the building crescendo's, as then it's not so relentless and fatiguing that you have to turn it down if it were compressed. Like I said above, the only time compression works for music, is when its not the main consideration to be listened to, when it's a silence filler, noise masker or earbud/ear-drum saver. 1: dinner parties 2: background music 3: in lifts 4: when your on the phone 5: not to blow up ear buds or your ears 6: and to stop the wife from saying turn it down during crescendo’s 7: in the car so the road noise doesn’t mask the low level parts. 8: late at night when everyone else asleep. Cheers George |
This too: https://store.dead.net/pacific-northwest-73-74-the-complete-recordings-19-cd-boxed-set-1.html The samples sound promising. I'm saving up to buy before they sell out. |
Georgehifi: the thing is we want to listen to recordings that are not compressed. The other 99% of music consumers benefit from some amount of compression, for all the reasons you listed and more. The big record companies know where their bread is buttered. That's why I appreciate the serious efforts of all the small independent companies that bother with releasing remastered material for us hifi nuts. And it makes it worthwhile digging up vintage recordings at thrift stores and vinyl shops. |
Compression is also a good thing when listening to music casually.Yes this is so true, the only times are when: 1: dinner parties 2: background music 3: in lifts 4: when your on the phone 5: not to blow up ear buds or your ears 6: and to stop the wife from saying turn it down during crescendo’s 7: also in the car so the road noise doesn’t mask the low level parts. Think of it this way, what sounds in real natural life are compressed? NONE! So why do it to our music when we want to listen to it seriously in all it’s dynamic wonder??? Cheers George |
fleschler: I might have stated it wrong. What I meant is that most classical and jazz recordings are not highly compressed. I did not mean that highly compressed jazz and classical recordings are in any way preferable when listening through a resolving system. Compression is always used in any kind of close miking situation (there are some very rare exceptions using discreet two-mic recording techniques, but that doesn't necessarily make the recordings better, just that the emphasis is on different sounds such as ambience, natural room reflections etc.). Without judicial compression mixing close-miked signals, mastering would be practically impossible and the result would be a sonic mess. Compression is also a good thing when listening to music casually. If you are not sitting in your listening chair and concentrating on the music, compression can help even out the sound dynamics and create a less tedious listening experience. Fortunately for those of us who sit glued into listening positions, the compression is usually light when applied to classical, jazz and "less mass-consumer oriented" music. Pop music is usually heavily compressed, but the consumer is generally listening while moving around the room or as background music, through a low resolution system or cheap earbuds or headphones, or in their car. It is delightful, sometimes, to hear the old classic rock albums that have been re-mastered with less compression. I've already pointed out the example of recently released Grateful Dead recordings (some of those older CDs sound muffled in comparison). It is worth looking into some of these newer releases, but be aware they may not sound just like you remembered. The Jimmy Page authorized (he was involved in the re-mastering) Led Zeppelin releases almost sound like new music! A lot of recordings from the '50s and '60s have very little compression. They were designed for the new high-end stereos that were coming out. We consumed music differently back then; the fidelity of most radios and cheap record players was so low that compression levels didn't matter. |
The topic of dynamic compression grew out of my broader question whether streaming services gave access to, and information about, various masterings, I acknowledge the affects of the loudness wars,* but the issue is broader than that and affects more than just pop confections. I come from vinyl land, but in exploring CDs, the issues include what source the particular master was taken from as well as the mastering choices, EQ (in vinyl that also extends to what pressing plant made the record and the quality of the vinyl compound used, factors that aren’t relevant to digital files and may be of only limited relevance in digital hard media). The mastering issues are not limited to compression, though. I’ve been buying multiple CDs of old, and sometimes obscure, records and you can hear demonstrable differences in sound quality. Thus, my question about what masterings were used by streaming services and whether they were identified in the meta data. Apparently Aurender does make the information available. I didn’t mean to sidetrack the discussion about comparing Redbook to streaming services, but it struck me that the differences in source and mastering could be a big part of the sonic outcomes, especially if you are not comparing identical recordings. _________________________________________ *I’ve certainly heard its effect when it is heavy handed. Judicious use of compression in the final mixdown (and sometimes in the mastering) doesn’t bother me, and can make for a punchier, more dramatic sound. |
kahlenz You must be kidding I hope. Classical and jazz sound are acceptable to hear with compressed sound? That’s utter nonsense. Classical and jazz are especially critical to hear (and enjoy) with a full panoply of dynamics, both micro and macro. Post 1995 pop recordings are typically highly compressed- no need to expend that music. Listening to heavy metal and hard rock from the 60's to the 80's have generally compressed dynamic ranges anyway. |
lalitk1Just had a listen to the samples, and you can hear on the samples the DR site is right, it wasn’t compressed too much at all also done by "Blue Note" they don’t compress. Sounded good I might get it S/H on CD https://www.allmusic.com/album/doin-allright-mw0000200382 Just bought this double of him from Blue Note new for $20aud with yours and "A Swinging Affair" could be remastered. https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Dexter-Gordon-2-For-1-Doin-Allright-A-Swingin-Affair-CD-2-Blue-Note-NEW/... Cheers George |
brayeagle: you will be stuck with what they have. But they have more material than I could find space to store on CDs. Tidal has a fairly decent assortment, but individual recordings can be tough to track down. I look them up on google, then search for whatever performers name the album is listed under (usually the soloist, sometimes the conductor, rarely the composer). A little rough. So far, Idagio has been a more pleasant searching experience. |
My Aurender conductor app gives me complete details on original album release date, remastered year and the file bits. Aurender streams via Tidal Trouble is do you have to purchase it first to get all the info? You good with that one anyway as it’s the only version released. http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list?artist=Dexter+Gordon&album=Doin%27+Allright Cheers George |
@rvpiano, You need to sign up for a free 30 days trial before you can stream music. https://tidal.com/us/try-now |
Compression. Absolutely vital for recorded music intended for mass consumption. Listening to Beyonce's latest release through earbuds or while driving would be tedious without it. Listening to background music at a party or while doing housework is actually enhanced by compression. When I sit down to listen to music, it is generally not going to be pop music. I mostly listen to jazz and classical, which usually doesn't seem to suffer from heavy compression. Most of the rock and alternative music I listen to is delightfully free of excessive compression. This is not the material that is going to be consumed by the average casual listener, so the material is mastered for a more critical audience. I do seek out better recordings when possible. For example, I have some recent Grateful Dead releases that are substantially less compressed than my old CDs, and listening to them is a revelation. But for the most part, especially considering what I listen to and how I listen to it, compression is not that big of a problem for me. |
The sound quality of IDAGIO is exactly what I would expect: excellent. I am so fortunate that I am not cursed with ears good enough to reliably discern between 16/44.1 and any higher resolution. Or perhaps my el-cheapo $10k system just doesn't have the resolving power. Either way, I am perfectly satisfied with 16/44.1 material. The good thing about "greater than 16/44.1audio files" is that many of these recordings have been re-mastered. In most cases, that same master is used for 16/44.1 playback, so I have the benefit of enjoying the new mastering without having to listen to it at higher resolutions. I have the gear to do so; it's just not worth the trouble. |
@rvpiano, My Aurender conductor app gives me complete details on original album release date, remastered year and the file bits. Aurender streams via Tidal. For example, Dextor Gordon - Doin’ Allright album released in 1961, remastered in 2015, streaming at 192kHz. And the album sounds pretty darn amazing. |
I guess my question should have been more pointed: how do you know what mastering you are getting on a streaming service?You don’t, they usually go with the latest, which unfortunately most are more compressed than the originals 10-20 years ago. That’s why I don’t stream or download, I stick with the silver disc. Just for interest have a look at Adel 21 on the DR website, I really liked it in the car on the radio. I bought the cd played it once when I got it on my home rig, and was shocked how compressed it was, and couldn’t send it back quick enough. http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list?artist=Adel&album=21 Cheers George |
Whart, In streaming services you can’t determine what mastering is used. What’s worse, most times, there’s no indication of what year a particular CD was released. In classical music there may be multiple performances of the same work by a performer from different years and there’s no way of determining which versions are earlier or later. |
Hi, George. I am familiar with DR measurements and the effects of dynamic compression. I guess my question should have been more pointed: how do you know what mastering you are getting on a streaming service? Are mastering credits provided by the streaming service or are there other indications that match up with hard media versions of a given recording? |
I have not yet gotten into a streaming service though I understand the value of having access to a vast catalog of music.Trouble with streaming you don’t know what version of the album your getting, some have had the daylights compressed out of them. This is what I use to find the most dynamic version type in your artist and album. "more green/highest right side number". click on it and find the cat no. then search for a used cd on ebay. Latest are usually more compressed I noticed. http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list?artist=Pink+Floyd&album=The+Wall For this The Wall the top one 1991 I’d go for trouble is there’s no cat no for it, just that’s it’s a South African one. Next best is half way down and it has two cat no.s C2K-36183 / C2K-36185 http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/view/92174 https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l1313&_nkw=C2K-36183&_sacat=0&... https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/pink-floyd-the-wall-c2k-36183.62279/page-2 Cheers George |
I’ve just started taking digital seriously as a playback medium (as opposed to using it for background music or work related stuff) and have been pleasantly surprised by how good it can be, even with a relatively modest set up, compared to my vinyl front end, which is far more ambitious. One thing I’ve found is that there is a dramatic difference in presentation based on the sources and mastering. (Something I’ve been acutely attuned to in vinyl and and am now chasing down in CDs). The sonic differences are often quite dramatic. I have not yet gotten into a streaming service though I understand the value of having access to a vast catalog of music. I suppose the point of my comment also leads to a question: apart from formats, gear, and approach, isn’t a huge sonic differentiator the source and mastering? In using a streaming service (and this is a question, not intended to be loaded), what choices do you have among different sources/masterings for a given recording? (I know that from my days of listening to classical music, which I do far less of today, the particular performance, by conductor and orchestra, as well as label, were factors so if streaming services offer a number of different recorded performances of a piece, perhaps you have alternatives). What about different masterings of rock and jazz? |
I have found that redbook sounds better than those same CDs ripped to FLAC files and streamed through the exact same system the CD player goes through. Both the streaming (ROON) and CD player use the same DAC (TEAC NT-505). Streaming when I am not critically listening is fun though due to the ease and how one can free associate with your music and mood switching to different bands and songs with just a few clicks and not having to get up. Now I do not have true hi rez files to compare the CDs with, so I cannot speak to that comparison. |
Finally, something true, although FLAC from Tidal is not compressed on playback, so it could possibly match CD playback given the right playback equipment. I can play MP3 from Amazon Prime music with my newest XMOS USB converter, Wireworld Platinum USB cable and one of these: https://sotm-usa.com/collections/sotm-ultra/products/copy-of-tx-usbultra-regenerator-1 The SQ from this beats the CD digital output from my Oppo by a country mile, even though it's compressed. This is because reducing jitter is more important than MP3 compression. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
And your point is? There are a lot of BS articles out there from people that don't know Shiit from Shinola. I don't take stock in sources with no credibility. I know what I measure and I know what I hear. My customers agree with what I hear. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
This was a mess of unintelligible stuff, but I can see that you don't have the equipment that is up to the task, just as I suspected. If you are using USB and many different software playback apps, the results will be poor. The devil is in the details. This is a system and every part of the system must be optimized to get stellar results, including the playback app, the interfaces, the computer, the cables, the ripping, and the DAC. Steve N. Empirical Audio |