Some thoughts on ASR and the reviews

@kevn I'll just add one footnote to my previous post: we might actually be able to address the specific issues of heterodyning and nonlinear cochlea interactions in audio by using DSP to simply mute tones that interact in those areas of the hearing range. This would be like addressing a room mode but within the ear itself. Of course, we would be robbing the signal of its fidelity in so doing.

Still, in order to do this we could use experiments that first demonstrate it will improve human hearing. There is a great deal of literature on methods for overcoming hearing loss; there may be something in there concerning speech that points towards something useful for audio equipment design.

Let's get that gap filled in!

@kevn Thank you so much for your analysis, putting into stark relief what I attempted to state in more basic language.  Also thank you @markwd for your cogent comments.  I've been stating the same thing in two Audiogon forums with 2000 posts (and Amir condescending arguments which are invalid for the most part).  

I have only one complaint in that the vinyl LP and crude stylii were the initial semblance of high fidelity sound. It was the magnetic tape that predated that attainment of sound quality. Today, it is still true that the mastered analog tape is closer to the recorded sound than the disc, unless the disc was recorded as direct to disc. I only have about 200 R2R tapes from the 50’s and 60’s and most are quite good (7.5 ips and 1/4 track). Better tapes are now available but relatively expensive. With 31,100 LPs, I often desire to obtain higher fidelity than encoded on my records. I keep most of them for the performances (live and studio) that are unobtainable from alternate media. I also really appreciate CDs as a convenient and often superior format but I admit I have superior playback equipment. Until recently, I preferred analog playback, now it is dependent on the mastering more than on the format.

Thanks again Kevn!

@kevn I previously addressed the issue of these hearing-excess-of-Fourier arguments as well as heterodyning and nonlinear effects within the ear. The problem isn't that there are interesting experimental results, it's that they don't demonstrate that there is anything that can be done to audio equipment to implement better solutions to whatever gaps may be present. For instance, if I am a DAC designer there are several different pathways to accurately reproduce a signal but there is no theory that says one approach will improve over another in matching the nonlinear merging properties of higher and lower frequencies in the cochlea.

Now, you can suggest that somehow listening on the part of the designer is allowing them to choose between design pathways but this is just speculation. It may be true, as I noted to @mahgister, but we don't know and neither does the designer.

So there is a certain faith built into all this speculation, just like god-of-the-gaps arguments in other online communities ("listening-in-the-gaps" arguments has a nice ring to it!). It's interesting but needs proof and a proper measurement methodology that shows a path forward for determining exactly how these phenomena impact equipment design and use.

Since you are a bit of a student of ideas in philosophy of science, one key one in contemporary thinking on the topic is lifted from Wittgenstein that we must remain silent on things we have no knowledge of and we have no knowledge of this. Until we develop it sufficiently we do have an AP and spectral sweeps.

 

@markwd ”But are you worried that the imprimatur might give new audio equipment "seekers" some kind of false belief that all they need is this particular kind of ASR science? I’m not too worried!”

 

Sorry I missed this, markwd. The thing is, when I started my audiophile journey, I knew nothing. Like most others. It would have been so easy to be sucked into the convenience of measurements to justify all my purchases, as anyone wanting to get best value for dollar would. However, i have never been one to take the easy road, and found it necessary to first understand the multiple viewpoints of any one issue, and then the relationships between them all for balanced decision making. It takes immense effort to slowly build that comprehension of what hifi audio is about, and not an undertaking most would want to see through.

What got me truly started was the definition of high fidelity.

I realised most of us start our journey with a misconception of what the term means. The exact origins of the expression will probably never be known, but it is generally agreed that its usage was first seen in Billboard magazine back in 1933. Even before that however, the obsession existed to recreate the sound experience of live music through the recorded medium.

High Fidelity has always been about the reproduction of high quality sound through electrical equipment to be as similar as possible to the original sound.

Back then, distortion was so completely everywhere, it wasn’t even an issue - all that mattered was a medium that could just deliver some semblance of realism to the reproduced sound. They found it in vinyl. However awful those needles were back then (and they were practically big ugly heavy crappy needles) that semblance was reached. Everything thereafter became one long road of refinement to bring sound reproduction closer and closer to the original sound. To make sound reproduction more realistic. The absolute fidelity of the signal was never a goal - what mattered was how the reproduced sound compared to the original sound.

We turned high fidelity into signal fidelity at some point.

It really was to help make things, decisions, easier; to have some quantifiable and rational basis for commonality and reference. And so, our original reference that was the original sound, became marginalised, and for many, forgotten. We don’t need to make the effort to improve listening ability any more - the measurements did it for us.

Except that it didn’t - particular kinds of distortion, in fact, bring reproduced sound closer to the original sound. The manufacturers discovered that tiny relevant imperfections in the audio signal help create a closer approximation of realism. High Fidelity is this incredibly nuanced kitchen of finding that balance between eliminating damaging distortion from, and introducing relevant imperfection to the signal to bring reproduced sound closer in realism to its original sound source.

Heresy, if opined from the viewpoint of signal fidelity, but hey, signal fidelity has never been what high fidelity is about.

This is what makes the arguments that amir or any one else whip up from their measurements seem so silly, they’re arguing for pure signal fidelity in a hobby where its accomplishment defeats the entire purpose of high fidelity.

So yes, it is false belief and indoctrination I post against, because I want every audiophile to hear the amazing realism that is possible with the wonderful equipment that is out there, which they can only access when they develop the difficult and time consuming skill of listening and hearing ability.

 

In friendship - kevin

@markwd thanks for that - ok then, what first needs to be established is a datum we can both agree on. The gist of this datum is the tradeoff made over measurements - this is most clearly established in the Heisenberg principle of uncertainty, and it’s somewhat equivalent in acoustics, the Fourier uncertainty principle.

What the Heisenberg principle of uncertainty says is, at the scale of quantum mechanics, it is not possible to accurately measure two related physical properties of a particle simultaneously. This is to say that if the velocity of a particle can measured accurately, there will be doubt regarding its precise location, and vice versa. If that doesn’t already sound bells in your head, take a look at the Fourier uncertainty principle which limits the precision with which the simultaneous measurement of both duration and frequency of a sound can be made.

The full article is here https://phys.org/news/2013-02-human-fourier-uncertainty-principle.html - originally posted by one of our learned, if a touch longwinded members, mahgister.

The article establishes that among a group of mixed participants and careful listening tests, that the human cochlea, non-linear as it is, equalled or outperformed the limit set by the Fourier uncertainty principle, in one case of both frequency and timing scores, by a factor of 13. The top score for acuity in timing was for three milliseconds. 

That’s three thousandth of a second. 

If you will allow this datum as a qualified test of human hearing acuity, we can proceed with the conclusions for the test - that our hearing is not only capable of performance equalling that of technical instrumentation in relation to independent measurements of frequency or time, but it exceeds that of the simultaneous measurement of both frequency and time, limited as testing equipment is, by the Fourier uncertainty principle - this is vital, as the foundations of music itself are built on the simultaneity between frequency and the time domain.

I hope you better understand now why Amir’s are not everything - he cannot accurately measure both frequency and timing, the very tenets of music, at the same time. He argues against the proven science of the Fourier uncertainty principle if he claims he can.

In relation for electromagnetism, which you relevantly queried me over explanations being left incomplete - you know markwd, never mind the Fourier uncertainty principle limiting the simultaneous measurement of frequency and time; never mind why I hear realism that measurements cannot explain; the profound world of electromagnetism is still beyond the full understanding of rational science itself.

My intention was not to answer any questions regarding the relationships between magnetic flux and the audio signal. I wouldn’t have a clue! I only have the hypothesis of its absolutely importance, being so much a part of how electricity itself is transmitted. It was only vital that I got you interested in the question, because that is truly what science is all about: what part does magnetic flux play in audio signal transmission that we might be missing?

Science is as much the asking of empirical questions, as it is the delivery of rational answers. I hope you get more involved in all of science, and not just its rational side : )

 

In friendship - kevin 

@kevn Take your time! I just got back from the symphony and got caught up myself. I just do this for fun anyways. I have neither ego nor business nor status invested in this topic but do find it fascinating, like friscalating light through a dusty chandelier.

@deep_333 - I get you, thanks for your post : ) - but I will always engage those who either don’t prevaricate, or at least acknowledge when it is being done. More vitally, the hope is my posts are being read by those on the fence, you see, who might be persuaded that the relationship between empiricism and rationalism is required for better knowledge and informed choices, and not just one over the other…..and certainly not measurements as final arbiter.

But it is an uphill task facing the indoctrinated. One of them from oakcreek doesn’t even know the definition of high fidelity, and has been so brainwashed by asr into believing it is about signal integrity, that he hasn’t even bothered to look up or study what high fidelity is, or where the term came from.

My hope is that others will.

i haven’t yet lost hope for markwd, but it will take a while to revert.

@markwd, thank you for your reply - I hope you have the patience for my response - a touch busy today : )

 

In friendship - kevin

@audition__audio Excellent! I'm glad you are off to ponder proper and respectful communications!

I am taking a break from this discussion in part due to inspiration from the latest post from kevn. This member communicates properly and with respect. 

 

@kevn 

Right, I have no deep objection to most of that. I was curious what aspects of electromagnetism do you think are in fact contributing meaningfully to the high fidelity reproduction of music that are not contained in those measurements? You seem to have dropped that?

The rest of your rather long description is arguable but mostly not objectionable. Your characterization of how science works vs. Amir vs. technicians, for instance, appears to continue your general dislike of the presence of "science" in ASR.

There clearly are aspects of science in there up to and including his scientific survey paper on the performance of audio components. The measurements are part of the survey and the hypothesis is that there are not strong correlations between cost and measured performance. Now, you can argue that other sciences work in different ways than that but it follows the description that I previously provided. No scientist I know would object; they just do their science. But are you worried that the imprimatur might give new audio equipment "seekers" some kind of false belief that all they need is this particular kind of ASR science? I'm not too worried!

Your final paragraphs focus on the notion that listening in a specific space and matching components is in addition to the capabilities of the components. Of course! There are extensive and lively discussions on the science of room modes, the role of DSP, damping, integration, impedance matching, and many other topics at ASR. The measurements of the individual components and the listening by Amir to confirm aspects of those is not changed by the additional discussions or how any given audiophile will need to find the proper fit of the components to create their optimal experience.

I personally think much of it is overwrought and it is oldie audiophile snobbery that trends towards the negative stereotypes that are claimed (minions, brainwashed, etc.) for ASR folks in a reverse-golden-rule manner, but I hold out a kind of stochastic hope that given enough discussion and enough resources, searchers will begin to find and understand enough that some of the mythologizing that has been wielded for commercial gain will be abraded a bit.

Like I note, I'm curious how internet/social media change our engagement with exactly these kinds of topics that were once knowledge constrained by dealers, small-circulation magazines, audio shows, etc. I've never been to or subscribed to any of that stuff but it once was a contained marketing ecosystem that built stories as much as performant products. Times change!

>high fidelity does not refer to the fidelity of the signal, it never has!<
 

OMG! What incredible bullshit.

Wow, such revelatory hostility! Dealers circling the boutique wagons in glamping configurations and boasting that their listening punditry is better than this stale, shrill modern stuff.

But we can do a bit of the kind of brainstorming that goes on in disruptive/dintermediating business plans. The boutique/high end audio equipment makers should produce mid-fi but excellent measuring components that become leads to the high-end components. They can reduce costs the standard way with manufacturing in Asia, use well-engineered chip amps, etc. It doesn't matter that those mid-market offerings are competing with many others. As long as they perform (measure) well enough they will get sales traction.

But, more to the point, they become brand ambassadors for the dealers and the higher-margin components. So what if they are mostly the same just with 60 pounds of heatsinks to allow for an additional 200 WPC into 8 Ohms. The high-end buyer may be trading up from the middle tier.

Brands that do this successfully include KEF (LSX -> Meta Blades), Chord even, Revel, etc. Now that sounds like a business model that can embrace the reality (and future impact) of ASR's measurements dashboards. The boutique shops just need better market planning and implementation rather than just being engineering (and measurement and, yes, listening) driven.

@markwd - thank you for your gracious reply and question. There is actually nothing I criticise regarding the measurements done at asr. It is how those electrical measurements are expressed and used to conflate belief with truth that I object to.

Science has always been about the balance between empiricism and rationalism. In medicine, bloodletting was an accepted practice of belief in good health against all empirical evidence, and carried on unabated for two thousand years, until it was rationally uncovered and proven to be otherwise in the 18th century when the last indoctrinated societies finally found rational evidence to collate the empirical.

This is the issue with asr, and really, amir himself, who often hides behind the emblem of what he has made of asr - asr is still all his and about him, however much he wishes to distance himself from the rational doctrines of belief he has boxed himself into. He will claim he still relies on empiricism, which cannot be trusted, because of the inconsistency with which he claims listening is more vital than measurements, and when he then laughs off all claims to listening. He cannot even trust his own hearing, in multiple posts where he says he heard a difference, and then ceased to hear a difference after a while. And his hearing difference always happens after a measurement, never independently of. He openly admits he cannot trust his own hearing, despite all the tests he has taken, but then goes on to say no one else can, when it is a known fact there is a huge of listening ability in human beings. He makes you believe you cannot trust your hearing, only because he cannot trust his, appealing to your having had similar experiences, when most of us haven’t developed our listening skills to hear the difference. This is the basis of indoctrination.

True scientists work by way of the dialogue empiricism has with rationalism, never just one or the other. Technicians work only one way, using predetermined rationalism for process and arrive at conclusions. And they are not wrong! They are merely there to help us with what is known, not what needs to be discovered. 

The problem is that amir positions himself as a scientist, when he’s really a technician.

Ok, that then leaves the empiricism of listening to question. How does one know that what one is hearing is actual, or mere confirmation bias, independently of measurements?

For this, we need to understand what high fidelity actually means. Defined, high fidelity does not refer to the fidelity of the signal, it never has! You can study this or look it up - high fidelity refers to the reproduction by electrical equipment of very high quality sound that is as similar as possible to the original sound.

Based on this, you can see how ludicrous it is to suggest that equipment measured with the best signal integrity equates to that of high fidelity - this is the very reason why so many audiophiles complain about many good measuring equipment sounding bad; measurements have never been the arbiter of fidelity, our ears are.

This is not to say that it is then reduced to a shallow matter of preference, as we all have a very very powerful point of reference - while we each hear differently, the source from which the original sound was emitted is shared by us all, be it a live bird, angry dog, Guarneri violins in general, or the way an old Steinway sounds in a particularly reverberant room. A correct understanding of high fidelity takes a whole lot more effort from each audiophile than merely referencing readouts and graphs from a technician’s monitor - the foundations of high fidelity itself are built on the development and honing of one’s listening abilities, to hear all the nuance and subtlety of the time domain that characterises the realism found in original sound - it is the watchful eye we each have to place on ourselves to detect bias, in placing realism and the truth of one’s perceptions over how much or how little we want to spend on our hobby. No one said it would be cheap, expensive, or easy….and, definitely no where as simple as taking a reading off a monitor.

 

Markwd, this is why audiophiles do not only rely on measurements, and in fact cannot merely rely on measurements - signal measurements do not and have never been the most vital part of high fidelity.

 

There are preferences, mind you, but one thing is clear - there is very little argument when a system of true high fidelity is heard. And I do mean in a room or space where the set up has been well judged and tuned to bring out the very best from that system, measurements be damned.

Don’t be misled into thinking, like many audiophiles do, when hearing the simply awful sound of a multi million dollar system in an audio show or at a showroom, that hi-end hifi is all a scam. I have found very few to have been set up well. Most importantly, I always reserve judgement until I can have whatever piece of equipment put into my own system, in the familiarity of my own listening and tuned space, and specifically located and adjusted speakers. If high fidelity is the true objective, there is ultimately only one metric of its final gauge - developed listening ability in the context of an entire system set into the specific context of its listening space.
 

I hope this has made sense to you.

 

In friendship - kevin

Oh my God it is like talking with a child. You keep going back to this Harman test. 

I also gave you example of a member here, MikeL, not being to pass a blind test and thereby, showing that his sighted evaluations were biased by something other than sound.  You haven't had an answer to either.

Did these people know they were being tested? If so, then all data can be dismissed

What?  Every category of tester was put in the same situation of evaluating speakers blind.  Tests were repeated and variance computed.  Salespeople like you had very high variance meaning little consistency in their evaluation of speakers.

JAES, peer reviewed by people who believe as you do so this means very little.  

Is that right?  How should we rank the value of random salesman on a forum then?  Just believe it?

Did Harman put on some dull music and then call it a day or did they play different music of different genres.

Already answered pages back.  Harman researched what type of content is most revealing of speaker performance.  And that is what they use:

AES Paper, The Subjective and Objective Evaluation of Room Correction Products
Sean E. Olive, John Jackson, Allan Devantier, David Hunt, and Sean M. Hess

AES Paper, A New Listener Training Software Application
Sean Olive, AES Fellow
Harman International Industries

AES Paper, Differences in Performance and Preference of Trained versus Untrained Listeners in Loudspeaker Tests: A Case Study*
Sean E. Olive, AES Fellow

 

Some of the tracks:

 Tracy Chapman, "Fast Car", Tracy Chapman
· Jennifer Warnes, "Bird on a Wire", Famous Blue Rain Coat
· James Taylor "That's Why I'm Here", “That’s Why I’m Here”
· Steely Dan “Cousin Dupree”, “ Two Against Nature”
· Paula Cole, “Tiger”,” This Fire”
· “Toy Soldier March”, Reference Recording
· Pink Noise (uncorrelated)

James Taylor, “That’s Why I’m Here” from “That’s Why I’m Here,” Sony Records.
Little Feat, “Hangin’ on to the Good Times” from “Let It Roll,” Warner Brothers.
Tracy Chapman, “Fast Car” from “Tracy Chapman,” Elektra/Asylum Records.
Jennifer Warnes, “Bird on a Wire” from “Famous Blue Rain Coat,” Attic Records.

These fall in the #1 and #2 categories above for the most part.

 

Not bad for being half in the bag, again. Wine is the universal solvent to all manner of ailments. 

All the best,
Nonoise

You say you dont sell components but own a company that sources components through Harman and perhaps other companies. Madrona sells electronics yes?

No.  No retail sales whatsoever.  We bid on large contracts for full system installs most of which have nothing to do with hi-fi.

The money you make off these sourced components makes money for Madrona yes?

Again, no.  I explained that about half a dozen times someone wants me to source them products.  I am fine if they do, or if they don't.  It is round off error for Madrona business and probably costs us more than it makes.

Vast majority of products I recommend are not handled or sourced by Madrona.  If there is, then a full cautionary note is provided to put readers on notice, unlike your posts here.

 I can tell by the way you answer these questions there is more to this than you are letting on.

Nope.  I have had a successful career prior to founding Madrona and ASR.  I am in need of no income from either.  Don't judge me from your vantage point. You are not similarly situated.

I would think that my dealer status should be obvious. 

Not at all.  It wasn't until yesterday that I searched through your posts and landed on one sentence saying you were a dealer.  It was a totally improper omission on your part.

Where did say that I didnt like Ralph's designs or the man? I like Ralph personally 

By saying he wasn't your favorite designer.  You need to make up your mind.

Please a list of the industry people that have helped ASR become an industry influencer.

I can't give you their name as that would violate their privacy. Go on ASR and look at people's titles.  It won't be long before you see Dealer, Reviewer, Audio Company, Industry Luminary, Technical expert, etc. 

I just checked and we have 204 members verified to be an Audio company.  Examples are KEF, Genelec, RME, Purifi (Bruno Putzeys), Kali Audio/Ex-JBL, Neumann, Hegel, Benchmark Audio, Schiit, Danley Labs, Weiss, etc. 

We have 21 audio reviewers.  Examples are John Atkinson and Kal Robinson of Stereophile.

We have four Audio Luminaries.  Dr. Floyd Toole, Dr. Sean Olive, James Johnston (ATT Bel Labs and my chief architect in last job), and the late Scott Wurcer of Analog Designs.

We also have 40 members of industry that have the special title of "Technical Expert" who have deep understanding of science and engineering.

 

 

 

 

You say you dont sell components but own a company that sources components through Harman and perhaps other companies. Madrona sells electronics yes? The money you make off these

@audition__audio

- He is a Harman dealer (Madrona digital).

- All his Revel/JBL speakers get "golfing panthers" all day long. They tower over the competition apparently. I bet all the minions run to him, thereafter and buy some sterile lousy sounding Revels in droves.

- His company is also posed as an integrator, which implies that he sells AV gear. I would wager that he sells Sound United products (Denon/Marantz), because he he’s been measuring the low sinad and granting happy panthers on Denon products. His minions go wild and feral when they hear the word "Denon".

The AV side of his minions don’t just buy 2 speakers, they would be buying 10 for such rigs...So, i would wager that he makes a killing in sales, with the "measurement based" advertising he does on his forum. IMO, it is quite clever how he poses though (as a conveyor of truth through measurements n all instead).

He also begs for donations every time he spits out a chart from his garage...A thoroughly indoctrinated minion would also donate a lot, i’d think (no matter if it’s living paycheck to paycheck or if it’s got deeper pockets). Such is the plight of an indoctrinated minion, i’d think.

In summary, a few lousy charts from a AP kit has made him a lot a dough, i’d bet.

 

@amir_asr  "If that is the definition of "genius," then I am the sharpest tool in the shed. 😁 Members do indeed donation significant amount of money to ASR."
What did P.T,Barnum say? "There is a sucker born every minute."

"As an aside, "audition__audio" made it clear from his first post he was a dealer, you need to read more carefully.

Oh my God it is like talking with a child. You keep going back to this Harman test. Did these people know they were being tested? If so, then all data can be dismissed. Pretty simple to tell a group of listeners what to listen for and then rank them higher than those with little to no clue. Without more detail it means nothing and even less because it is most likely a marketing ploy which was implemented by an audio distributor. JAES, peer reviewed by people who believe as you do so this means very little.  You mention it because it gives you an added level of credibility to those not familiar with such things. Did Harman put on some dull music and then call it a day or did they play different music of different genres. Remember that Ralph plays real music not Diana Krall and related drivel. Real music for people that participate in this hobby for the love of music. He would have been happy to play something of your choosing which is often what real reviewers require in order to do a fair representation. Tell you what, spend $ 200K on your system and $ 10K on measurement devices and you might learn something new.

Keep up the good work Amir. We may be done so if I dont respond dont take it personally and you may tell your devotees you kicked my butt and I took my toys and went home.

You say you dont sell components but own a company that sources components through Harman and perhaps other companies. Madrona sells electronics yes? The money you make off these sourced components makes money for Madrona yes? I can tell by the way you answer these questions there is more to this than you are letting on. I dont believe you but it really doesnt matter.

I would think that my dealer status should be obvious. If you think this pearls before swine stuff helps my business think again. I take no radical stance other than that measurements dont tell us nearly what you would suggest. I take issue with you and some of your faithful because I believe your stance on this hobby is a tactic. A ploy to get a following and then lead them down a path that serves your purpose. You offer a simplistic solution to a confusing hobby and as such you are guaranteed a following. To what end and purpose only you know, but it isnt to help your faithful or this hobby. Remember a successful parasite doesnt kill its host. Or at least not quickly.

Where did say that I didnt like Ralph's designs or the man? I like Ralph personally but this has no bearing on my ownership and representation of his product. I obviously wouldnt buy his amps if I didnt think they had something unique to offer. 

I used "chips" for want of the correct word. I believe these chips/GanFets were made by Toshiba. Point is I was talking with Ralph about this when you were getting fired from your other jobs or winning grammys or whatever was going on in your past life according to other members.  

Your show reports suck. You blame the performance of the stereo on the music. Ask for some other music then and make some sort of effort. But why if he designs using nonperfomant (did I get this correct) tube equipment? Your mind is made up and admit that it cant possibly be viable because it is a tube product. Admit this and save us both some time.

Please a list of the industry people that have helped ASR become an industry influencer. Simple request and if you dont answer some of the faithful might take notice and start buying purple fuses.

Feel free to contact me directly if you need help with your reference system. 

Carry on Amir. 

 

 

Show me any definitive test or study that says that our senses are wrong, especially in an audio setting.

I already have.  I will post again in an attempt to see if you will read it this time.

Sean. E Olive, "Differences in Performance and Preference of Trained Versus Untrained Listeners in Loudspeaker Tests: A Case Study," J. AES, Vol. 51, issue 9, pp. 806-825, September 2003

"J. AES" means Journal of Audio Engineering Society which means all papers are peer reviewed prior to publication.

Audio salespeople like you were tested in their ability to consistently rank speakers in controlled, blind tests.  They massively failed to do so relative to trained listeners:

 

From the abstract:

"Listening tests on four different loudspeakers were conducted over the course of 18 months using 36 different groups of listeners. The groups included 256 untrained listeners whose occupations fell into one of four categories: audio retailer, marketing and sales, professional audio reviewer, and college student. The loudspeaker preferences and performance of these listeners were compared to those of a panel of 12 trained listeners. Significant differences in performance, expressed in terms of the magnitude of the loudspeaker F statistic FL, were
found among the different categories of listeners. The trained listeners were the most discriminating and reliable listeners, with mean FL values 3–27 times higher than the other four listener categories."

As noted above, dealers were 3 times less accurate than trained listeners.  I have participated with a group of dealers at Harman and watched them first hand fall apart in double blind tests where Sean Olive and I could go way past were they could not.  And these dealers are above average by having gone through extensive training at Harman (but not for specific purpose of evaluating speakers).  You likely would fall at or below Audio Reviewers who were 5 times worse than trained listeners.

If you can't tell the difference reliably between speakers were there is objectively large differences, what hope is there for you tell any difference in electronics?  None.

If you disagree, please show controlled listening tests that demonstrate your ability to properly evaluate audio fidelity.  Outside of that, you are grading your own exam and we know how much such scores mean.

So you make no money from your youtube channel and ASR? 

I don't know what "make money" means.  I have invested $200,000+ in test equipment and heaven knows how many thousands of hours of my own time.  Members make donations but it is not remotely enough to offset the cost of the equipment let alone all the other expenses.

If you actually get people to send you money then you are an absolute genius.

If that is the definition of "genius," then I am the sharpest tool in the shed.  😁  Members do indeed donation significant amount of money to ASR.

Do you own or are you involved in the retail sale of components? 

Not at all.  Hate that business on top of that. 

If so, how many of these are represented by Harman?

There is no relationship whatsoever between Harman and ASR (or any other company as a matter of fact).  Despite my friendships with a number of people there, they won't even send me a screw to review!  I have bought some of the Harman products out of my pocket and the rest have come from members.

I have founded another company called Madrona Digital. That company's business is completely outside of hi-fi and involves custom electronics for very high-end residential and commercial accounts with zero interest in topics we discuss at ASR.

Every year about a handful of people ask me to order products through Madrona for them.  No attempt is made to solicit any such business on ASR as it is an independent entity.  No ads for Madrona.  No items offered for sale.  Nothing.  When someone wants something I can source, product is ordered from Harman and goes to them directly as we don't inventory anything.  And again, Madrona's business is completely different.

Show me where I said Ralph was my favorite designer. 

So you bought products from a designer you don't like?  How was he able to produce what you wanted to listen to then?

I talked with Ralph when he just received the chips which made his class D amps possible.

What "chips?"  His amplifier is a discrete design using GaN FET transistors.  Do you have any knowledge of electronics? Statements like that make me think you do not.

I owned them before I became a dealer.

Oh, you were a dealer and are questioning my motivations?  Don't you think you should put a disclaimer of being a salesman in every post you make that relates to this?  We mandated this on ASR by the way.  Dealers have Dealer tags.  Industry members have Audio Company tags.  Both are highly encouraged to put their affiliation in their signature so that people are fully aware of any potential areas of bias or commercial interest.  Had I known you were a dealer, I would have called you on that way, way earlier in the thread.

 

 

 

Have you ever listened to an Atma-sphere product?

Sure.  See my show reports:

 

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/rmaf-2016-united-home-audio-tape-classic-audio-purist-audio-atma-sphere-music-tri-planar.884/

 

 

 

@amir_asr

"When I asked him how long I can have it, he said whatever I need since he had bought a Topping DAC for a fraction of the price and it sounded every bit as good to him!"

Did it last more than a week or did he then have to buy another one? Because as you know their quality control is sterling.

 

No but the difference we hear is because of some bias. Expectation, sighted, placebo, you choose. So many biases to confuse us poor fools. But what can you expect from listeners who werent trained by Harman? The same Harman who sells numerous lines, 2 of which Amir owns (very pricey) and may actually sell on a retail basis. He doesnt seem to want to answer this question. Be nice to know if Amir actually paid for this gear and if so how much. All of my equipment that I own or represent was purchased at industry accommodation or dealer cost. 

 

A fool with a multimeter can apparently measure and test anything. 

It's a shame I can hear the difference in gear and cables. I could have saved a lot of money.

ASR is a joke.

O.K. Amir lets go.

So you make no money from your youtube channel and ASR? If you actually get people to send you money then you are an absolute genius. Do you own or are you involved in the retail sale of components? If so, how many of these are represented by Harman? I would check but I really dont care enough to check so I will take you at your word. I dont believe in what you call science and audio engineering. Or at least not all of it.

Show me where I said Ralph was my favorite designer. Ralph is also a member of Audio Asylum and Audiogon. His contributions are almost always of a technical nature and he avoids ridicule and pontification. So him not calling you out doesnt mean that doesnt take issue with the things you or other members have said. Have you ever listened to an Atma-sphere product? Has Ralph ever offered you one for review? Ralph believes in measurements, but he will also tell you very carefully where measurements fall short and how most who measure dont get the bigger picture. I talked with Ralph when he just received the chips which made his class D amps possible. He and I disagree on a number of things and at the risk of making him angry I dont think his move to class D is based mainly on performance. I own Atma-sphere amps because they are the best amps I have heard with certain speakers. I owned them before I became a dealer. Same with all of my lines.

Simple request Amir. Give me a list of your industry people. Oh and your association with Ralph is too thin to be counted. Again your measures of performance arent universally accepted as applicable. 

I think the MA-1s now retail for around $ 18K. I have heard your amps or a similar vintage. Arent these overpriced by your method of thinking? Cant find another cheaper pair of amps that measure similarly and therefore sound the same? Your amps are competent s.s. designs. I would however encourage you to listen to some of the uber expensive European designs to see where your Levinsons fall short. 

Perhaps you have done a great deal of listening tests, but if you did these in your listening room I wouldnt really call them tests. Your reference system was set-up not for audio but for space and perhaps aesthetic considerations. Reminds me of a audio/video setup. Sorry but I am a hobbyist and small dealer with a dedicated room, treatments and no big-screen. So again very little traction. Anyone who really understood would not have this setup or would have the common sense not to show it. I believe your style is to measure first and then listen? So measurement bias.

Show me any definitive test or study that says that our senses are wrong, especially in an audio setting. Show me a study on bias and I will show you another one that denies the premise. Funny how you eventually will use some study not related to audio to prove your point. Even your measurement pal at Stereophile criticizes the double blind theory. So you, myself included, gravitate to the one that closely matches my experience and you your theory.

The rotation analogy is so stupid I wont even do you the honor. 

You need to learn the limits of your measurements and your rigid stance on most things audio related. With your permission I will continue to waste money and effort on things that dont matter to fidelity. I do appreciate your concern. A glimmer of hope, however, as you seem to have found a 50K pair of amps and a 23K pair of speakers not guilty of this sin. 

Stick with the mid-fi Amir and stop interrupting when the adults are speaking.

 

 

Don’t believe…your lifetime doesn’t…we don’t care…biased conclusions…such is not so…by your logic…you need to…waste money and effort…and miss out 

Pon-tif-i-cate… express ones opinions in a way considered annoyingly pompous and dogmatic 

The rub for me is most of you skeptics arrive at you opinions not through listening. 

Please don't believe your own talking points.  Nearly half of my reviews include formal listening tests.  In the last 4 years, I have reviewed in the order of 600 to 700 reviews that have had listening tests in them.  Your entire lifetime doesn't remotely have this level of listening evaluation.

We love listening tests at ASR.  What we don't care about is people using their other senses to arrive at random and biased conclusions which can trivially be shown to be wrong.

You keep equating what you perceive as reality.  Such is not so.  Sitting here, both of us are moving at over 1000 miles per hour!  That is the speed of earth's rotation.  Yet we perceive that as no speed at all.  By your logic, earth is standing still and therefore, there is no night and day!

You need to learn the limitations of your senses.  Until then, you will continue to waste money and effort on things that don't matter to fidelity.  And miss out on those that do.

To you reactive guys. Amir makes a much larger percentage of his income indoctrinating you than I make from selling overpriced gear.

There are no ads, sponsorships or any other commercial interest at ASR or my youtube channel.  Members do donate which helps offset the significant cost of test equipment and running of ASR.  

Getting people to learn audio science and engineering is not indoctrination.  Selling them.  Selling the last century audio products with false claims, is.

Amir, still waiting for the list of industry people. 

A list?  It wasn't enough to show you that your favorite designer is an active member of ASR?  You think Ralph is part of a cult because he contributes and participates in ASR?

I'll make it easy for you, give me a list of industry people that design any piece of audio gear at any price with any level of preconceived bias. 

You want me to list who has preconceived bias with respect to price?  Is that what you have instead of just judging a product based on performance?

 

Atma-sphere MA-1 amps

That retails for what?  $10K for a pair?  Each monoblock I own in my system costs $25,000.  A pair would cost 5 times more than yours then.  Most high-end audiophiles would not even consider an amplifier that costs $10K.  Way too cheap!  

 

Give you a bit more information so that you can see how my taste and knowledge has developed. My first system purchased in the early 1980s, during college. VFet Sony integrated amp, Bozak LS250 speakers, ADC t.t with Grace F-9E mm cartridge with assorted cables. Learned from this experience that I didnt have nearly enough power to drive these speakers and things were a bit more complicated than my dealers let on. From this point I started to read, find those who were willing to mentor me and spent the rest of my time listening to as many systems as possible.

So I actually have been where some of you guys probably are at this point, fortunately I didnt have someone like Amir telling me to do anything but judge by anything other than actual experience. Unfortunately for many of you, navigating the audio landscape is much more complicated than it once was. Sure more ridiculous claims but also the sound of equipment has steadily improved since back in the day.

The rub for me is most of you skeptics arrive at you opinions not through listening. Not much more be said. Let me put some of you at ease. Just because some of us spend more on this hobby is no cause for you to take this personally. We arent better people, we arent necessarily better more asute listeners and we arent wealthier. We choose to spend as we spend because we believe we are getting better sound and this is very important to us. Simple. Who are you or Amir to say otherwise? 

 

 

I just talked with Ralph last week. He has not moved away from tubes and considers his class D amps to be better than the 60 but not my MA-1s. I have a number of ideas about why he would make this move, but I dont believe performance is on the top of his list. I listened to these amps at Axpona 2 years back and he paired them with these awful single driver plexiglass-like enclosure speakers so I have no idea how they actually sound. To date I have heard many class D amps, including the AGD (looks like a tube device) and wasnt impressed. If he wants to send me a pair I will give them a listen, but I remain skeptical.

To you reactive guys. Amir makes a much larger percentage of his income indoctrinating you than I make from selling overpriced gear. BTW, I dont try to convince customers of anything, I just invite them to listen. 

How many of the products I carry have you guys heard? In fact please share with us details of your system, how you came to buy these products and what effort you have made to listen to other products that may sound better. Also are you willing to listen to an underperforming tube device? 

I will start with my current system in my dedicated room without a big screen between my speakers. Room treatments are mainly homemade and I am very close to doing a wall damp on this room. My dimensions suck and have solved a few of these problems with adding mass. Your room is the single most important thing to get right. Listening to 2 channel over 40 years. 

Current system: Merrill Williams REAL table, Tri-planar tone arm, Hiyabusa and top Dynavector MC cartridge, Zesto Audio Teserra Ref. phono stage, Zesto Audio Leto Ultra line stage, Atma-sphere MA-1 amps, recently rebuilt Quad 63 and 2/3 way Atohm speakers. Cabling mainly Kubala with some Inakustik. No power conditioning with improved AC power outlets. Oh and an inexpensive Simm Audio CD player that I bought used.  This lineup changes often.  

Amir, still waiting for the list of industry people. I'll make it easy for you, give me a list of industry people that design any piece of audio gear at any price with any level of preconceived bias. Oh and stop mentioning Harman. Prefacing them means nothing.

Yes, I've read some of his posts on here about class D , and apparently his Class D amp has gotten good feedback from folks who have heard it.  I was just pointing out that he hadn't abandoned his tube line . We're in agreement on both points

He also hasn't eliminated his tube lineup.

He has a good following on the tube side so keeps selling his existing products.  But from design point of view, he decided to move to the other side instead of staying with tubes.  Likely because he has seen the major progress class D amplifiers have made in performance.  Something that we have highlighted on ASR more than any other site.

On a whim I visited the ASR forum. Lots of mid-fi, products on loan to Amir. Cult indeed.

I didn't know if you don't buy overpriced gear you are part of a "cult."  Regardless, I test plenty of expensive gear in the range of electronics you own.  Go to the Review Index tab, select a category (e.g. electronics) and sort by price.  Here is an example:

 

Note how I have recommended a number of products in that price range.

Many of the members can afford very expensive gear.  One for example sent me $30,000 worth of CHORD products.  When I asked him how long I can have it, he said whatever I need since he had bought a Topping DAC for a fraction of the price and it sounded every bit as good to him!

I document the lack of correlation between price and performance in my Audio Engineering Society paper.  Here is a video summary of it:

 

There are other studies such as those by Harman that show the same in headphones and speakers.

More like added Class D amps to his lineup after perfecting it to his liking.

All the best,
Nonoise

@amir_asr  "

Please feel free to list industry people that contribute to ASR that dont share your beliefs about audio. 

You own an Atmosphere tube amp, yes?  Well, here is its designer and company founder, Ralph:

 

I  hope it is not news to you that he has moved on to solid state Class D amplifier design now.

Oh, FFS.

Just what everyone needs, another zealot disciple of the fake Audio Jesus posting garbage on A’gon.

 

 

>On a whim I visited the ASR forum. Lots of mid-fi, products on loan to Amir. Cult indeed. If you guys are going to follow a false prophet get a better one that can at least set up his reference system properly. Not even a one-eyed man to be found. Absolute rubbish.<
 

wow! Talk about being opinionated and rude! False prophet? Are you some sort of religious fanatic? Or are you selling absurdly over priced equipment:  AuditionAudio.         
 

I get it. You need to convince people to spend $10k on a pair of tube amps. Your audiosnobbery religion helps to fund your business.

"This has caused a movement in the industry by shifting....". Please Amir enough I cant take it any longer. I might buy this if you restricted it to components costing less than $ 500.00.

Please feel free to list industry people that contribute to ASR that dont share your beliefs about audio. How about some tube and analog industry guys? A dash of cable experts would be nice as well. 

There are industry people and then people in the industry. I doubt you know many of the former.

On a whim I visited the ASR forum. Lots of mid-fi, products on loan to Amir. Cult indeed. If you guys are going to follow a false prophet get a better one that can at least set up his reference system properly. Not even a one-eyed man to be found. Absolute rubbish.

 

@deep_333 I've only very occasionally posted anywhere, actually, but do please ignore if you don't like my content. I've been an actual working engineer and scientist for most of my adult life, though not specifically in audio. Like I mention above, I only occasionally read ASR but am very interested in how ideas like science, quasi-science, and pseudo-science arise, are discussed, and debated in online communities.

I guarantee you that I am not Amir and don't have his depth of understanding of audio engineering issues.

@kevn Well, I try to be charitable in my critiques but there is a reaching quality to much of the posting here (combined with hostility, often). In this case it is an "appeal to possibility" and the standard worry over closed-mindedness.

I salute your interest in the idea that science is incomplete and there is much more to know, but ask what specific critique you have about what is currently known and applied in the case of ASR testing and how a better understanding of electromagnetism might improve upon that?

In any case, I will not continue debate with you - I see you’ve been too indoctrinated to reach, and my earlier post was in hope you might be able to open your mind to the other half of science,

@kevn , might be better to put this markwd entity on ignore. Looking at post history, it appears to be a recently awakened sleeper cell account.

It could be Majidimehr himself on a hidey account (Engage Clone Mode: Thread narrative support)..or just a very feral loyal ASR Habibi.

@markwd  “@laoman You dropped the context! Unfair! 🤣 “

and you dare accuse others of dropping the context - not good form 😪

 

In friendship - kevin

@markwd - I believe you missed the meaning of my comments - 

1.i wasn’t referring to Amir’s measurements of speakers, which isn’t even done thoroughly and in context, if you will refer to the original post of this thread.

2.second, your appeal to low level audio frequency’s ‘fairly consistent’ behaviour in relation to ‘simple’ electrical law-like patterns is a far cry from any sort of bedrock on which to determine all of what isn’t known about the effect of magnetic flux on the audio signal - you’re using the tenets of the half science to justify the half science itself. You really haven’t understood my post. It is terribly funny you start with words like quantum mechanics and intuition to end with ‘fairly consistent’ and ‘simple electrical law-like patterns’ in justifying your knowledge of electromagnetism.

3.Finally, your third point throws out nomenclature precisely like a textbook that pretends to resolve all issues of your credibility, quite similar to how Amir attempts to resolve all doubt over his credibility with measurements, when you don’t realise science is not and has never been either about empiricism or rationalism - it has been about both - precisely what most intelligent audiophiles here argue for a balance of. You argue for an Amir-styled rationalism that thwarts the best of science itself. It’s not only half baked, it’s reductionist. Reductionist rationalism is what Amir stands for and indoctrinates with. It is truly even less than a half-science.

In any case, I will not continue debate with you - I see you’ve been too indoctrinated to reach, and my earlier post was in hope you might be able to open your mind to the other half of science, being empiricism. This not being the case, I post for others who may read with comprehension but not participate. I wish you well in your journey.

 

In friendship - kevin

@rgs 

no. with all due respect.

@mikelavigne ,

Hi, 

Could you please elaborate as to who has moved on and in what context considering the findings of the experiment you participated in?  Thanks

@jtgofish I just crawled around Hi Fi Choice's online presence and searched for blind listening tests and they merely mention that things "really impressed the blind listening group" and similar such short statements. Is there somewhere where they archive their actual test methodologies, results, statistics?

@laoman You dropped the context! Unfair! 🤣 The end of that was a recommendation to do an ABX test after researching and learning about how to do so. Hardly condescending, I think, given the target of the response. I'll note also that I only have a few dozen posts at ASR and read it less than Roon (but certainly more than this bizarro world of Audiogon!), so not much of a minion.

I'm mainly interested in how online communities deal with science and pseudo-science, and how they evolve and change over time. The backlash over ASR is like a little experimental microcosm. It's kinda like the car communities where brand loyalty and electric/petrol divisions rule, but it has a strange aversion to measurements, unlike car-universe where 0-60, 1/4 mile, Nürburgring performance are all critical. It's like if a car community said that 1/4 mile didn't matter, just the driving experience and pedal feel.

Very interesting and odd!