Some thoughts on ASR and the reviews

Here is his review of the $2700 Laiv Dac.....he says it sounds the same as a $200 SMSL........NOT!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJm6-77fN-s&t=1090s

I never said any reviewer hated a Topping. Generally, AS I STATED BEFORE they think it is very good and one of the best in its price class......that is it....As soon as you go above its price class......it fails. You really need to take a class in searching.....you seem to only find the old reviews that mirror your point of view. The guy at Soundnews used to love the Topping DAC.....now he is climbing the ladder. He thinks the Laiv DAC is the king under $5K but there are other DACs that do some things better (for more money).....but way better than a Topping. The guy at iiWi feels exactly the same way. This guy is super intelligent and his reviews are clear as a bell......this guy can hear......of course, he listens. Here is a review of the latest Topping compared to others in its price range.....If you search his Youtube website you will find that he also thinks the new Laiv DAC is really out there. These guys are climbing the money ladder and as they do.....they get better sound that leaves the lower high end (Topping DACs, etc.) in the dust. And of course, they are not testing the super high priced DACs that are another level better still. These two guys and others are just people who love stereo.....they are not part of some big company that makes money on advertising......and has to be NICE to all companies so they will keep advertising. These guys are true enthusiasts....they love stereo and love music. They listen and share. They can hear immediately the differences between equipment. They tell the truth.

Please start listening. You might learn something. Then you can help more people....not just the ones that think like you do now. Get some education....and then share the learned info.....spread the glory.....tell the truth. Praise be all life!

 

 

When someone crashes into my lane of flow and tells lies then I let them know they are on the wrong track. 

You are currently crashing into my lane.  This is a thread about ASR.  You are posting fallacies and mistruths to put down the work I do and who I am.  When I answer with evidence to the contrary, you write a word salad instead of taking a step back, being the student that you say we should all be, and learn from that. Plowing ahead goes against the very advice you are dispensing!

Listen to me: the world of audio has been transformed in the last few years.  In every category there has been great advancements.  As has method of evaluation of said equipment.  Over 2 million people visit ASR every month.  They do so because they are logical, and see the progress we are making across the board.  You don't want to hear this?  Then please don't say everyone should be a student.  You are not setting any example here.

 

I trust me.....the me that listens.....I trust you....the you who listens.....

That is a clear misstatement if there ever was one. I just posted three well-known reviewers who heavily praised the product you said every reviewer hates. They listened, did they not?

Is listening only good if it arrives at the same preconceived notions you have? All other listening is false?

You need to put aside your prejudices about audio. That is the first step in seeing the truth. Otherwise, your brain will tell you what you want to hear. The above reviewers did that.  It is your turn.

I listen to these DACs for hours and hours. There is absolutely, positively no sign of any of the things you claim about their sound. They show the beauty or lack thereof of the music itself.

It is so funny that you quote the midfi reviewers.......Steven Stone, Kalman....secrets of home theater.....etc.  These guys only listen to 1% of what is out there...........Try looking around at reviews done by people who are not paid to rave about midfi stuff and have access to other more expensive gear.  

I thought you said the consensus was universal?  I show you reviews from top two magazines covering high-end audio and now you backtrack this way?  All of a sudden "listening" is not good enough?  

Yes, there are paid snob "reviewers" on these rags which wouldn't know audio science if the book hit them on the back of the head.  They have not reviewed any Topping gear which would invalidate your claim yet again.

Go on.....do a search....everything I said is what they all say.....

You are asking me to do your homework?  Your case is already busted.  Well-known reviewers from top magazines completely disputed your claims.  There are no alternative reviews to back anything you claimed about Topping.

 

 

We all create our own reality. What it is to you is not what it is to someone else.

We are all teachers to each other.....we are also each others student.

When someone crashes into my lane of flow and tells lies then I let them know they are on the wrong track. This is what good parents do. They first tell you how beautiful you are and how honored they are to have you as their child.....then they tell you your behavior is not loving and they are here to TEACH you how to be more loving (truthful.....for the truth is love....so telling a lie about anything is anti love). Then the parent tells the child not to do this again and again praises them again for JUST Being. Then the child will do it again to see if you meant what you said and the process repeats itself except the adult tells the child that if they do it again....there will be consequences.......when the child does the unloving or untruthful behavior again then the consequences are immeditately applied.....always loving the child and not making the child wrong......We are not our behavior......When we tell a lie.....we are lying....but we are not "liars".....We are divine beings who have forgotten our beauty and for a moment acted stupid. On a public forum we are not alphas to each other.....There is no parent child relationship.....We are all equals. Still, you can tell you brothers that they are not on track and are lying or acting unloving......We just cannot lay down consequences for unloving behavior. We need to be self growing....and learning from each other.

So, maybe I did not praise Amir enough......for he is the divine light....he is divine love and divine beauty. However, his ego is trapped in a lying holding pattern....like a plane that does not know how to land. In order to land in love you must trust....and in audio.....you must learn how to trust what you hear....and also admit to your untruthfulness. My sweet Amir....please come back to the truth.....the truth is like a big tit.....full of juicy everloving Amrita....Ambrosia....the nectar of life......Please drink it.....I offer it to you. You deserve it.....YOU ARE BEAUTIFUL!

@ricevs is this the Agon version of Road Rage?   

It is so funny that you quote the midfi reviewers.......Steven Stone, Kalman....secrets of home theater.....etc.  These guys only listen to 1% of what is out there...........Try looking around at reviews done by people who are not paid to rave about midfi stuff and have access to other more expensive gear.  You will find out what these many hear.....not what some "got to sell some copy and ads magazine says".......Go on.....do a search....everything I said is what they all say.....the mid fi guys will sell you anything.....Just like you do.  You should join Stereophile as the midfi king (with Kalman and Steven you guys could be the three musketeers of midfi....saving the world.  What a joke......keep up the lies.....it is entertaining.  However, why don't you actually listen to all the super measuring DACs one after another sighted and tell us what you hear.......I am sure you will tell us they are all the same...and the same as the $150K DAC that Robert Harley uses.....However, all the serious listeners in the world will say they all sound different from each other.  But you will not listen.....and again, if you did....you would have your hands over your ears to make sure you cannot hear anything...

Here is a true story about you (worth repeating for it is so true)......it stars someone else but you are the same as him.  Audiophile A was invited over to Audiophile B house for a listening session.  He brought along a newby (audiophile D) that he was trying to indoctronate about his belief that all wires sounded the same.  There was also Audiophile C there that brought a cable that he wanted to A/B with Audiophile Bs cable.  When they went to do the A/B........Audiophile A went into the kitchen (God forbid he be in the same room where they are doing listening tests with wire!).  He heard all their comments from the kitchen (all three were in agreement.....about the sound differences and those differences were quite dramatic).  When Audiophile A came back from his cave no one said anything to him.....after all....what is there to say?.....except...."I guess you don't want to know whether your long held belief is true or not".  This is you......head in the sand.....hands over your ears....screeming that you are right, right right......However, not only are you wrong, but you are seiously limiting your love, joy and bliss by promoting a lowering of the possibilities of things.  You are acting like a downer......you have very little to give (all your reviews are the same).....You only serve those who already believe the way you do.......they buy their mid fi stuff and feel that it is the best.....because they all have their heads in the sand, as well.  Very sad.  You like doing your own thing......but truth needs to be served.  You have very little. 

Go on, show us some more graphs and quotes that "you think" prove you are right and prove that 250,000 audiophiles are really just fools.  Amir says "No frickin way can people hear differences.....you cannot trust your ears.....you must, must, must do double blind testing over and over and over and over again to know anything.  We are just human failure machines.....we cannot perceive truth directly....we have to trust a machine (a measurement machine).....we are just another brick in the wall.  Only trust me." 

I trust me.....the me that listens.....I trust you....the you who listens.....most people do not lie about what they hear.  I do not trust someone that does not listen and who preaches what is obviously (to those of us that listen) lies.

you have uncanny "ability" to misconstrue the arguments presented to you throughout this lengthy thread. It is either due to lack of comprehension or a need of "proving" your ideas to be true. Most likely the latter, since you project yourself as the only one in the know and everybody who disagrees does not have a clue. How about to agree that we disagree. Those who follow their senses to enjoy reproduction of music by audio equipment are not harming anybody, but you do disservice to people who limit themselves in pursue of such an enjoyment following your ideas of "only measurements matter". 

I am doing that?  How many times have I talked about proper listening tests?  I have posted videos how to do that properly. I have posted my own listening tests.  I have repeatedly explained how we rely on more than measurements to including engineering knowledge and science to determine fidelity.  Yet you go and repeat that made up talking point that "only measurements matter?"

If you can't even phrase what is different about us by making things up like this, why do you think we can "agree to disagree?"  The first step in that is understanding the other person's position.  I know you all's position.  I have lived it for almost a decade in the last forum I co-founded. You all need to make a modicum of effort to correctly state what we are about.

So once more: listening is great.  I do it in almost every other review. Until you learn how to do this right, you are going to arrive at wrong conclusions about audio.  Measuring is an alternative to listening that can bring significant insight into design and execution of an audio device.  When science and engineering is applied to it, it provides a powerful conclusion as to validity of company claims to fidelity. 

As to "harming anything," you all created this thread and started to post misinformation about ASR and I.  What do you call this if it is not harming?

@amir_asr you have uncanny "ability" to misconstrue the arguments presented to you throughout this lengthy thread. It is either due to lack of comprehension or a need of "proving" your ideas to be true. Most likely the latter, since you project yourself as the only one in the know and everybody who disagrees does not have a clue. How about to agree that we disagree. Those who follow their senses to enjoy reproduction of music by audio equipment are not harming anybody, but you do disservice to people who limit themselves in pursue of such an enjoyment following your ideas of "only measurements matter". 

For instance, almost all the reviews of the Topping gear say it is very detailed but lacking in soul, ambience, subtly, macro dynamics, imaging, decay, etc.  They all came to this on their own.  They agree.  AND THEY LISTENED.

Quick look at traditional press reviews on Topping easily invalidates your claim.  Check out KR's review of Topping DM-7 multichannel DAC in Stereophile magazine.

"On first hearing with the DM7, I was almost certain my streamer had swerved and served up something from a different album when, after a half-dozen instrumental tracks, Ms. Perbost simply appeared in my room just left of center. "

[...]

"I also tried the DM7 with older favorites, and it didn't disappoint. It fully revealed the spacious, warm acoustic and the fully present trio on The Elder (Polarity, Hoff Ensemble, rip from 2L 2L-145-SACD). Particularly notable here, and also on Justice, is the delineation and weight of the bass and drums. Willie Nelson's Night and Day, which is recorded with the band fully surrounding the listener, shows that the DM7 can create a convincing immersive experience. I hear instruments, discretely and realistically rendered, all around me, including in the wide spaces between the front and rear speakers in my 5.3 system."

"I came back to René Jacobs's rethinking of Der Freischütz (Harmonia Mundi HMM90270001, 2 CDs), which so impressed me when I reviewed the KEF Blade Metas. Heard now with the resident Revels and the Topping DM7 (in place of the exaSound s88), it was no less impressive. The clear and varied voices are well-defined within a soundstage that's wide and deep, and the effects are convincing. In the Wolf's Glen scene, the space and chorus expand in size, including height, and the orchestra is convincingly spooky and dramatic. From just two channels, the DM7 conveys the full sense of the theatrical events with a perfect integration of pit and stage."

JA had this to say about its objective performance:

"The Topping DM7's measured performance is superb, even without taking its affordable price into account.—John Atkinson"

Here is Absolute Sound Review by Steve Stone of Topping D90SE, directly contradicting your claim:

"Sound

This is the section where I’m sure a number of readers are hoping that I discover that the D90SE, despite its wonderous specifications, sounds just OK. Sorry, but that was not the case. What I heard was reference-level digital reproduction without any sonic bromides. If the absence of coloration, individualistic character, or “house sound” was the goal, the D90SE has clearly achieved it. During my listening time with the D90SE I was never able to identify anything I would characterize as deviations from tonal neutrality. To my ears, the D90SE is very much in the “straight no chaser” school of DACs, like Benchmark or Bryston. If you need a more euphonic sonic output, the D90SE will not help you get to that place.

Since I have quite a number of recordings that I made of live performances of classical orchestras, chamber groups, Bluegrass ensembles, and solo recitals, I have a complete set of listening tools that I know well. Also, I know what the recording chain was, and what the various sonic “tells” are on different recordings. Throughout my listening sessions using my own material, I was continually encouraged to hear that the D90SE neither added nor subtracted from the spatial, textural, or rhythmic character of the performances. One of the unique recordings I have is one that I made at the Rockygrass Academy several years ago of Chris Thile playing and commenting on my then recently acquired 1930 Gibson F-5 mandolin. The D90SE did a superlative job of retaining all the harmonic characteristics of both Chris’ voice and my mandolin. [Steven is a noted expert on guitars and mandolins, and is a long-time contributor to Vintage Guitar magazine. —RH] 

As usual when I listen, I’m primarily listening for faults rather than for whether a particular recording sounds more real on one piece of gear than another. But one performance arena where the D90SE ranks as “jaw-dropping” is its silence. In a properly configured system with no additive noise such as low-level hums or buzzes, listening through the D90SE will deliver the “blackest blacks” (if you wish to define signal-to-noise in terms of colors) you will hear from any DAC. In a system where I can place my ear within an inch of my loudspeaker’s drivers, I heard nothing, not even a hiss; when I switched from the D90SE as an input source to a shorted input source, there was absolutely no difference in base noise levels. On many commercial recordings the difference between the absolute silence of the D90SE and the base-level “silence” of the recording was noticeable, always in favor of the D90SE. If your sonic goal is to cobble together the quietest, most noise-free system possible, the D90SE ranks as a first-call player."

He goes to do an AB test against another DAC and reports:

"After multiple listening sessions I was forced to conclude that I could not tell any sonic difference between the sound of the Topping D90SE and the Gustard X-16. Both offer a clear view of the musical event without any house-sound or euphonic colorations. Both produced the same imaging characteristics in terms of depth, width, image focus, and dynamic acuity. Hard as I tried, I could not discern any sonic differences I could regularly identify."

And this in conclusion:

"I will admit that when considering the Topping D90SE it’s hard not to scream: “ENDGAME DAC!” And begin jumping around a la Tom Cruise in Risky Business. But since I am, first and foremost a fully grown old gent, I won’t give in to this vile temptation. But I will go on the record that if a neutral, high-resolution, modern, well-configured DAC that sounds as true to source material as any I’ve ever heard is something you are seeking, the D90SE could easily qualify as your new reference DAC."

Stereophile and Absolute Sound are the top two magazines when it comes to high--end audio.  Both massively contradict your claim. Both rave about qualities you claim Topping doesn't have.

I will quote one more from Secrets of High Fidelity.

"A nice selection of music to listen to via headphones and draw by. Routing the D90SE’s analog out to my STAX headphone amp and earspeakers, I was treated to a stone quiet background from which John Williams, Yo-Yo Ma, and the New York Philharmonic worked. The details in Yo-Yo Ma’s playing throughout “The Concerto for Cello and Orchestra” were frankly astonishing. There was no hint of etch or harshness in the sound of any of the strings, horns, or background percussion. The Topping provided everything my electrostatic headphones and amp needed for them to do their effortless magic with this music. Ma’s and the Philharmonic’s rendition of “the theme from Schindler’s List” simply gave me chills. Sublime stuff this.

I need to thank fellow reviewer Gene Hopstetter for turning me on to this album. A beautiful recording of a piano sensitively played. Again the Topping D90SE did nothing to enhance, detract, or editorialize the glorious spacious piano notes that came forth from this performance. The dynamics from the piano seemed completely natural and unencumbered. “Etude n.6” was just a powerhouse tour de force that sounded huge, whether I used the D90SE with my STAX headphones or in my main system with speakers. Transparent in the extreme."

He concludes thusly:

"I’m finding it very difficult to find fault with the Topping D90SE DAC. It is well made, has superb measured performance, sounds as transparent and devoid of coloration as any other DAC that I have come across, and it won’t cost you an arm and a leg."

[...]

"The Topping D90SE is a DAC for listeners who want nothing to get in between them and their music. It reveals all without adding anything that shouldn’t be there. It is very much the ultimate textbook DAC that almost anyone can afford. Highly Recommended."

Here is a couple of guys who are doing sighted and BLIND a/bs and are also doing measurement tests to see if there is some correlation to what they hear.  

Careful.  Every one of their measurement videos I have watched make fundamental mistakes in conclusions they draw.  I addressed one of them about network switches in this thread.  You need to be careful to not leap from some measurable effect, to the output of your audio device changing.  I post this video there to demonstrate how what they say doesn't apply to output of your audio system:

 

but they claim they are doing "no science".......they are humble.....they just listen and test every way they can.

I don't know them personally.  But do know that they impress lay audiophiles by the look of their measurement gear while not understanding at all what they are measuring.  Same folks who fight me tooth and nail on measurements, all of a sudden become a fan of their measurements!  

Their listening tests do NOT follow proper protocols.  Just running a test blind doesn't mean you are generating good data.  That is but one component of proper testing.

Finally, testing audio gear is not "doing science."  It is just measurements.  Understanding the measurement data as far as audibility invokes science but again, is not doing science. Same with properly doing audio listening tests.  Your doctor is not doing science either by following it to treat you.

@amir_asr  just like some of the measurements don't matter the way you think they do. I used to think the great measuring equipment was best until I heard the sound of a tube system.

the whole concept of stereo is an illusion.

The whole concept of stereo, a fossilized old technology is just dumb!

The whole concept of object based audio...or even a dumbed down something called BACCH that hasn’t been picked up by everyone is just a mind boggling denial of technological advancement and audio nirvana.

This brief transient lifespan is about exploring/experiencing new things (one would think), but, not when it comes to "purist audiophilia"... pure and goofy till the brief lifespan comes to an end, i suppose.

Almost all the review magazines, almost all high end manufacturers, 90% of all Audiophiles, 90% of those on this forum, 90% of manufacturers showing at high end audio shows, etc. etc. into infinity do sighted A/Bs of equipment and generally come to the same conclusions......without talking to each other.  For instance, almost all the reviews of the Topping gear say it is very detailed but lacking in soul, ambience, subtly, macro dynamics, imaging, decay, etc.  They all came to this on their own.  They agree.  AND THEY LISTENED.

There have been people who believe like Amir for a long, long time.  He just made the game more real for some by adding a measurement machine to make it look like there is some truth to that point of view.  As, I have stated over and over again....there is no proof that if a DAC, preamp or amp measures a certain level of SINAD......that it is SONICALLY TRANPARENT.  Never been tested......never. Amir made this up in his mind....It is a fantasy....that he speaks as THE TRUTH........and only believed by those that are super nerdy, cynical and angry at the high end pricing and have little money.   

So, you have a quarter million audiophiles, engineers, designers, and customers, etc. from all over the world saying that they hear differences in all DACS, preamps, amps and cables (using sighted a/bs)......and on the other hand you have this rogue dude saying that HUMANS are flawed and cannot make a correct decision in listening without double blind listening tests......and of course, Amir and his crew do NO listening tests......They would be afraid to do sighted tests with a bunch of people in a room.  If they said that there was no difference and the other 10 all heard a certain difference then they would spread the word all over the net that Amir cannot hear.  If Amir agreed with their test results (hears the same difference) then his whole world would collapse into ego hell.  His whole purpose would be wiped out.....his website would have to be taken down for he has now joined "the dark side"......which is really where he lives already.  He is in the dark.....afraid of the llght.  He has no proof.....none.   

Those of us that hear a difference in everything do not need to prove it to anyone  We know what we hear is real.....we hear it....We trust what we hear......What we do is common knowledge.....almost every magazine from around the world does this......they compare and state what they hear.  THEY TRUST THEMSELVES......Amir trusts no one.  Especially himself.....otherwise he would try sighted tests of stuff.  But he made up his mind years ago about this SINAD silliness and is going to defend it to his grave (more than likely).  However, it is very sad that he limits himself to OK sounding gear.....but does not want to go for the big goosebumps.  You will not get big goosebumps with Topping...(well, maybe with enought drinks in you....he he).

Here is a cool true story.  I had a woman employee that was soldering my Ultimate Attenuators while I was tweaking my stereo (modded Quad Electrostats, etc.).  I was adding pieces of Navcom to some of the digital chips in my NEC cd player to make those nasty digits behave.  The more Navcom I added the warmer the sound.  This lady had her left ear towards the stereo and commented that when I added them it got warmer......so, I think to myself.....well, she certainly can hear.  So, after she was done working I had her sit in the "seat" and told her to concentrate on the sound of the cymbals......nothing else.  BTW this woman had never ever listened to a high end stereo.   I then went into the bedroom and did something and told her to listen again.....after the track was done I asked here if she heard any difference.  She told me that the second time through the cymbals were more pure and real sounding......I then told here what I did.....which was.......I unplugged my LED digital clock that was next to my bed.  There was only one circuit in that apartment so anything you did to the AC was heard loud and clear.  She heard IT.  Not a golden eared super trained listener.....a complete novice.....a virgin of stereo could hear the difference.  What I just stated will make Amir go into complete freak out mode.....I cannot wait for his response.

Here is a couple of guys who are doing sighted and BLIND a/bs and are also doing measurement tests to see if there is some correlation to what they hear.  This is way more scientific than what Amir does.....but they claim they are doing "no science".......they are humble.....they just listen and test every way they can.  Here is a session where they listen to plug in line filters and one of the guys is blind and the other is not and they basically agree on the differences.....and they already had measured these things on the bench......pretty interesting.  I wish you all the most ginormous goosebumps ever.

 

the whole concept of stereo is an illusion.

That's right.  Leave it to content creator to make that illusion for you.  That illusion is objectively there, and is predicted and explained by psychoacoustics.  Imagining differences in playback hardware that is not there is naturally not explained by any science.  The difference will disappear once you stop comparing things.  And hence the reason some audiophiles are constantly upgrading/tweaking.  And believe in "everything mattering" when everything can't possibly be mattering.

 

Hi! just to make one thousand😁

@amir_asr the whole concept of stereo is an illusion.  Do you realize that none of this equipment sounds exactly like unamplified live music, so what is the actual reference if it's not unamplified music?  

 To prove it's not rigged, just tell yourself to listen for "Brain Storm" both times and that's what you hear.  

It is remarkable how the awareness does not help.  I was once helping my codec team at Microsoft test a new version of the encoder.  They subjected me to a blind test and I, with full conviction, told the team which version was better.  Only to have my codec team manager tell me the files were identical!  I then listen, and both version sound the same.  Then I imagine I can hear a difference and repeated: remarkably, I could hear the difference again!!!

It is an easy enough experiment.  Copy one of your music filers and then listen to the two.  Try to focus hard and invariably you will hear differences in the copy!

That's quite funny.  To prove it's not rigged, just tell yourself to listen for "Brain Storm" both times and that's what you hear.  I remember another one like this where an LP was played backwards.  At first you hear nothing but gibberish.  Then it was suggested you will hear "she has a dead rat in her mouth"  WTF!!!  But sure enough, it was crystal clear on the second listen once the idea had been planted.  

Nobody can trust their own brain, preference, or judgement is the pinnacle of arrogance.

I am glad you said "brain" rather than "ears." We are finally make progress. When your brain synthesizes an experience, it uses so many factors beside sound:

 

 

You need to find a way to avoid this or forever you are living an auditory illusion.

We did learn one significant thing for you all to chew on.  Amir uses software to identify mention of ASR so he can jump in and correct misinformation.  

What?  I don't use any such things.  I said this forum sends me summary of active threads and when I see ASR as a thread title, I click and see what you all are saying.  I sometimes ignore them but if people are typing fiction, then I post corrections.

I have said it before and say it again: I am here because you all are choosing to discuss ASR or me and saying things that are not true.  Otherwise what you say or do doesn't interest me.

Let that sink in.  That is someone driven by massive ego self absorbed narcissism.

What needs to sink in is some folks desire to keep talking about me rather than audio.

 

@facten  Thanks, but apparently it means nothing.  The very next post goes on to bad mouth Amir.  Who Fu&#king cares!!!!!!!  This forum is really turning me off.  Hey, maybe that's Amir's evil scheme.  Expose enough Agon members as narrow minded self centered idiots and we all quit the site.  Yes, that must be it.  Amir has found a way to make Agon implode.  It's pure genius. 🤣 🤣 😭

Personally I’ve acquired 3 very high value, lower cost  items reviewed by ASR and each worked out very well.

In one case I already owned a product by a company that makes several products positively reviewed on ASR to various degrees so ASR helped confirm what I already knew and have mentioned here on occasion: The $70 amp I bought before even knowing ASR existed was a big time overachiever, shockingly able to drive KEF ls50s no problem whereas some other way more expensive amps I have tried there failed miserably.

There is one other much pricier item on my radar screen currently that ASR ranks very high but they are not alone by a long shot there.

Live and learn!
If an expensive product measures poorly but also floats one boat, that’s fine. We all have different requirements. That does not make the technical data any less true or useful. Well informed decisions are always better than those lesser informed.

Keep the facts coming and Everybody keep an open mind. It will all work out that way. Personal attacks add nothing here. 

so he is apparently using technology to make sure his brand is properly represented and so he can weigh in when he feels it is not.

Disagreement with ASR or methods or reviews Amir performs is valid commentary by others.  Nothing to do with Amir making sure his brand is properly represented.  Cut and paste ASR charts, graphs, and commentary ad nauseum along with telling everyone they are wrong and only Amir knows best.  Nobody can trust their own brain, preference, or judgement is the pinnacle of arrogance.

Vigilance - NO. Amir has his own forum for the promotion of his measurements.  Taking over a thread in another forum, arguing with everyone is not vigilance.   

"Amir uses software to identify mention of ASR so he can jump in and correct misinformation."

Not sure why that equates to "massive ego self absorbed narcissism."

Amir is a bit more invested than us average jokers posting here, so he is apparently using technology to make sure his brand is properly represented and so he can weigh in when he feels it is not. That is vigilance and not a big deal to me. The name calling and vilification around here is, to me, a much bigger deal.

We did learn one significant thing for you all to chew on.  Amir uses software to identify mention of ASR so he can jump in and correct misinformation.  Let that sink in.  That is someone driven by massive ego self absorbed narcissism.

@bigtwin +100

@amir_asr  @erik_squires  and all the ships as sea.  Only 14 more posts to hit the milestone of 1000.  And what have we learned?  Absolutely nothing IMHO.  We all knew that ASR likes to use measurements and we already knew a whole lot of Agon members don't care for Amir's methods.  Has anyone changed sides?  I doubt it. Is continuing the back and forth ad nauseam proving anything.  I seriously doubt that too.  Isn't it time for everyone to put on their big boy/girl pants and get on with their life now?  Yes I know I don't have to read this thread but for some reason it bugs me to be associated with a group that carries on this way.  Let's all go back to discussing things that really matter.  Like tighter bass with a better power cable.  🤣

I am very interested the results of your test although I’m pretty sure you will pass it with flying colors unless you are hearing impaired. Amir will find some reason your test was invalid and the 80 buck China dac is superior. 

is that the same song 10 times or 10 different songs?

My poor wife... this is going to cost me more than I paid for the DAC.

The issue is the gain and getting them to match blindly.  I'm running them both directly into my integrated  amp so it's easy to switch sources the problem is the gain is much higher on the SMSL which doesn't have a volume control if it was the other way around I could set it on the PSAudio and then just switch back and forth.  I do have a preamp that that has the option of a passive attenuation and can match them that way but that could  alter the outcome by introducing additional factors??? I'll give it a go and am pretty positive on certain tracks I can get 10 out of 10 while there are other tracks that don't have such obvious markers and I'm not as familiar with which might be able to trip me up on occasion  but I"m game.

 I'm sorry Amir but for sound quality price matters more than numbers, believe me I wish it wasn't true but in this case and on sound quality alone your panther has lost it’s head.

First, thank you for the constructive tone of your response.  😀

If sound quality matters, then I have that for you as well in my review of PS Audio DirectStream DAC:

 

"Listening Tests
For subjective testing, I chose to use the recently reviewed and superb Monoprice Monolith THX 887 Balance Headphone Amplifier. This headphone amp has vanishingly low distortion and hence is completely transparent to DACs being tested. For the alternative DAC, I used my everyday Topping DX3 Pro 's line out RCA to Monolith. I then used the XLR input to connected the DirectStream DAC. Once there, I played a 1 kHz tone and used my Audio Precision analyzer to match levels using PS Audio's volume control. PS Audio claims perfection there ("bit perfect") so I figured they can't complain about that.  The final matching was 0.3 dB difference between the two.

For headphone I used DROP + MRSPEAKERS ETHER CX with its XLR connection to THX 887 amp.

I started the testing with my audiophile, audio-show, test tracks. You know, the very well recorded track with lucious detail and "black backgrounds." I immediately noticed lack of detail in PerfectWave DS DAC. It was as if someone just put a barrier between you and the source. Mind you, it was subtle but it was there. I repeated this a few times and while it was not always there with all music, I could spot it on some tracks.

Next I played some of my bass heaving tracks i use for headphone testing. Here, it was easy to notice that bass impact was softented. But also, highs were exaggerated due to higher distortion. Despite loss of high frequency hearing, I found that accentuation unpleasant. WIth tracks that had lisping issues with female vocals for example, the DS DAC made that a lot worse."

In my case, my findings match the measurements.  Output transformers are adding significant amount of distortion:

 

You can see this effect in complex waveform of 32-tone test signal:

 

Here is the kicker: the designer whose prototype was brought to market by PS Audio, admitted using inferior transformer!

 

So you pay $6,000 for a DAC and there is still no room to use a proper transformer???

Knowing the source of distortion through my measurements allowed me to focus my listening tests, in this case, bass heavy tracks to better detect them.  Otherwise you are just shooting in the dark.

in this instance and from my experience these statements are very misleading and outright wrong.

What makes your subjective listening experience right, and mine wrong?  The SMSL DAC I recommended doesn't have any of the above impairments.  I highly suggest you repeat your test, this time please match levels, do it blind and repeat at least 10 times and see if you can identify your DAC 9 out of 10 times.  If the difference is obvious sighted, then this should be easy.

And no, I am not saying  you are biased.  I am saying you are human.  And humans are not capable of performing such tests properly without controls in place.

SMSL rated for measurements 116

 

PsAudio DirectStream MK1 in 2019 rated 76 almost at the bottom

I really want to thank @amir_asr  again for his thoughtful responses to my questions but it's pretty apparent that there is a lot more to sound reproduction than just measurements. Am I biased toward my own system? Of course I am. I've spent years getting it to this point and to me it produces the a sound signature that I like. Can a $80 DAC compete with a $6000 DAC?  Of course it can't. The differences go way beyond sighted bias. While the SMSL SU-1 does a lot of things well it approaches music like performing brain surgery with a hammer.

I A/Bd the dacs using two different sources. The first was a PI2AES using the Coax to the SMSL vs the AES/EBU to the DirectStream both using fairly short cables. When switching between inputs when both sources were connected to the DirectStream they were indistinguishable so I consider it a fair comparison and much easier to A/B as I could just select the input and the amp and adjust the volume. The differences were much more noticeable when using the PI2AES as the SMSL DAC was much grainier and less refined.

The other source was a fanless PC using upscaler software. The SMSL has the advantage on paper as it will support higher frequencies of both DSD and PCM than the Directstream but even with that advantage the DirectStream's vocals sounded real vs the SMSLs rendition that would sometimes veer into what sounded like the singer was using autotune.

To be honest the $80 SMSL surprised me on how good it actually sounded. The bass went low and was tight. It had good extension and no noticeable background noise. On the other hand the PSAudio was a $6000 DAC when new. Even it hasn't sounded the same over its' lifespan as there have been several software updates to keep improving it. While not a blind test, I believe that measuring better does not mean sounding better and the differences here go way beyond slight bias as they should, comparing the costs.

PSAudio Direct Stream MK 1 vs SMSL SU-1 Fanless PC upsampling to DSD.

Nnenna Freelon

Straighten up and fly right

The differences in these two presentations is so obvious that I'm confident I could walk in the room with this song playing and easily identify which DAC was being used. The SMSL has the frequency response and the bass is there as is separation. The Take 6 backup vocalist do come from different locations left, left center right center and right but the presentation lacks depth. It's as if sharpness was turned way up like what happens in photo editing. Everything is flattened and all the hues are lost. The vocals have that digital quality that are almost like they are straining. With the PSAudio the Take 6 vocalists step into the room the finger snaps are in a location on the sound stage and not just snaps on a plane. There was some special engineering on this song that gives it a quality that SMSL just doesn't capture.

Woong San

Round Midnight

I will admit it was more difficult to discern the differences between the DACs on this song. The SMSL was able to capture the frequencies of the bass but still not its body. The notes were there but with the DirectStream you could hear the notes resonate within the instrument. Woon San's voice has an almost whisper quality on this song which was lost on the SMSL.

Linda Ronstadt & Emmylou Harris

Sweet Spot

No contest here. The SMSL was way more forward and harsh. This song has a snare drum where all the intimacies were masked and shoved forward while on the DirectStream the skins rang and again occupied space. I used a sound meter app to make sure the volumes were the same. The SMSL sounded louder and it wasn't lacking in frequency response but its' inability to retrieve detail performed as should be expected at that price point.

There is a definite audible difference in DACs and I can reliable state DACS do not sound the same. While the SMSL is rated in the excellent category in 2023 in 2019 the PSAudio DirectStream was rated poor almost at the very bottom.

So a quotes like

DACs have massively come down in price while sharply increasing performance. If you don’t need balanced out, an $80 SMSL DAC will clean the clocks of many high-end DACs and provide full transparency to source content you are playing.

and

If you mean all measured impairments are below threshold of hearing in both devices, then yes, in a controlled, level matched, repeated test, listeners would not be able to reliably tell them apart.

in this instance and from my experience these statements are very misleading and outright wrong. There is a reason that people buy high end expensive DACs and it's not because they are being misled by sight bias or duped by snake oil salesmen. I recently watched a youtube reviewer and he compared DACs for over a month without being able to differentiate between the two but after a while the differences started to appear. This comparison isn't that. The differences are immediately obvious and way beyond subtle differences and bias. I'm sorry Amir but for sound quality price matters more than numbers, believe me I wish it wasn't true but in this case and on sound quality alone your panther has lost it’s head.

 

 

again:

“ Surely you can hear a Cornwall has better Macro dynamics than a Harbeth right? Horses for courses. I’m curious all the different parameters you can measure bud.? And fast is absolutely a speaker attribute. “

“Nope you said dynamics is how loud a speaker can play Amir.. that’s not dynamics. So dynamics don’t exist then? “

also these were not answers to any level of any sane persons satisfaction.

 

1: DO YOU BELIEVE DYNAMICS IN A SPEAKER IS A THING?

2: HOW DO YOU MEASURE SUCH DYNAMICS (assuming you think it’s a real thing)

3: YOU REALLY DONT THINK FAST IS A THING WHEN IT CONES TO SPEAKERS?

Refer to earlier comment on how to drop the room’s noise floor to improve the "perception" of dynamics. Talk to guys like Dennis Foley (Acoustic Fields), Poes Acoustics, Anthony Grimani, etc about how to redo the construction, drywall, studs, hvac vents and so on.

And yes, there is very much a thing called a faster speaker playing the same notes. A few pages ago, I even hinted to the ASR simpleton how he would start to go about measuring it (atleast one aspect of it)

Such a speaker will let you perceive the dynamic contrasts better -> give you a better hint of the silence tied to the space in-between, your room’s low noise floor, etc when you’re playing music. For example, Borresen would fall in that category of speaker.

This simpleton will keep doubling down when he doesn’t know about something, keeping his minions in the darkness. I guess it is tied to his livelihood, pretending to be a know it all (so, it is what it is)..

“ Surely you can hear a Cornwall has better Macro dynamics than a Harbeth right?

Who here agrees with him?

 

Your little video didn’t address those topics. 

This guy wouldn’t have had such an experience with his 86db sterile Revel salon (just not that kinda speaker).

John Atkinsons, then editor of stereophile magazine was asked at RMAF what is his favorite speaker.  He said Revel Salon 2:

 

Doesn't remotely agree with you.

LOL. .. 

really good at picking out what u want to defend aren’t ya. 
 

again:

“ Surely you can hear a Cornwall has better Macro dynamics than a Harbeth right? Horses for courses. I’m curious all the different parameters you can measure bud.? And fast is absolutely a speaker attribute. “
 

“Nope you said dynamics is how loud a speaker can play Amir.. that’s not dynamics. So dynamics don’t exist then? “
 

also these were not answers to any level of any sane persons satisfaction. 
 

1: DO YOU BELIEVE DYNAMICS IN A SPEAKER IS A THING?

2: HOW DO YOU MEASURE SUCH DYNAMICS (assuming you think it’s a real thing) 

3: YOU REALLY DONT THINK FAST IS A THING WHEN IT CONES TO SPEAKERS? 

 

 

 

So other than measuring a bunch of tones, what else constitutes a “great”speaker? How do you measure that? 

 

Nope you said dynamics is how loud a speaker can play Amir.. that’s not dynamics. So dynamics don’t exist then? Your answers were very poor BTW.

An important component of "perceived" dynamics is dropping your room’s noise floor as low as possible. It will REQUIRE tailored construction for that purpose, solutions for hvac noise, treatments, etc. Otherwise, you could keep cranking the volume knob and only go deaf.

Another thing is when you have drivers that are designed to hit 130db without breaking a sweat, it may sound very clean and detailed (low distortion, no hint of compression etc) when you play it at 85, 90db. Mark Levinson’s M1 which is 100+ dB sensitive is an example and it is essentially a pro audio speaker. There are other higher end pro speakers that fall in that category, etc. It can add to this "perception" of dynamics. This guy wouldn’t have had such an experience with his 86db sterile Revel salon (just not that kinda speaker). He probably just cranks the Revel in a noisy living room and doesn’t know a whole lot.

Anything he doesn’t know doesn’t exist, apparently. That’s the definition of a backwardass scientist, engg undergrad (gpa=2.0).

 

Sorry, but, I have heard this Putzey goof’s sterile sounding sht bro... It sounds sterile and lousy as sht...

I hear you but stereophile reviewer didn’t remotely agree with you.

Let’s go even more into the domain of subjectivity with 6moon review:

This is the concluding statement ("Danes" mean the Purifi amplifier designers)

 

So other than measuring a bunch of tones, what else constitutes a “great”speaker? How do you measure that? Surely you can hear a Cornwall has better Macro dynamics than a Harbeth right? Horses for courses. I’m curious all the different parameters you can measure bud.? And fast is absolutely a speaker attribute. 

Nope you said dynamics is how loud a speaker can play Amir.. that’s not dynamics. So dynamics don’t exist then? Your answers were very poor BTW. 

Then comes the genius Bruno Putzeys who designed the Hypex amplifiers some 10 to 15 years ago. He put the output post filter into the feedback loop, and thereby nullifying its effect. He also added more gain which allowed it to in turn have more feedback, linearizing the response to near state of the art.

Sorry, but, I have heard this Putzey goof’s sterile sounding sht bro... It sounds sterile and lousy as sht...Ugh, i can only imagine this paired with your sterile Revel and what a world of sterility you remain in, unfortunately.

My condolences though (once you go sterile, ya never come back, i suppose).

 

1: DO YOU BELIEVE DYNAMICS IN A SPEAKER IS A THING?

Your question is ambiguous indicating you don’t know the precise way to characterize speaker performance.

2: HOW DO YOU MEASURE SUCH DYNAMICS (assuming you think it’s a real thing)

Same answer.

3: YOU REALLY DONT THINK FAST IS A THING WHEN IT CONES TO SPEAKERS?

Yes.

by the way dynamics is the difference between soft and loud and how well the speaker presents and handles that transition.

Made up characteristic that is not supported by any listening test study.

Just so you know it’s not how loud a speaker can play. How loud a speaker can play is just……. How loud a speaker can play.

I didn’t tell you it was. I told you how you assess usable dynamic range of a speaker. What you are talking about is vague, made up notions for stereo reviewers to fill pages to sell ads.

Are you serious Amir? You pick little one sentence snips that work to you narrative like you’ve been doing for the past 2 weeks .?? Ok I’ll be cleaeeaaaaarrrrr then. might even ask chat  gpt to do it for me! Jk
 

1: DO YOU BELIEVE DYNAMICS IN A SPEAKER IS A THING?

2: HOW DO YOU MEASURE SUCH DYNAMICS (assuming you think it’s a real thing) 

3: YOU REALLY DONT THINK FAST IS A THING WHEN IT CONES TO SPEAKERS? 
 

by the way dynamics is the difference between soft and loud and how well the speaker presents and handles that transition. Just so you know it’s not how loud a speaker can play. How loud a speaker can play is just……. How loud a speaker can play.  . .    …. 

So dynamics are not a thing?

You asked me about "micro/macro" dynamics.  Those things don't exist.

Dynamics is a general term and can exist if you qualify it as I did for you last time we discussed this. I define it as how loud a speaker can play sub-bass tones without audible distortion.

Cause you can’t measure it with your tones?

'Cause no one can design it.  It is like asking me to build you a counter for number of times Aliens have landed in your backyard.  Just because you imagine something, and make up a name for it, doesn't mean it is real.