Solid State Preamp to replace tube unit

I commented earlier in this thread that I have been happy with my Pass XP-12, it offered a nice balance in comparison to the other preamps that I tried. However, I chanced upon a good deal on an Audionet G2, I struggle to find the words to describe this upgrade. Yes, when new it is four times the price of the XP-12, so it should be good. But I think there is just a completely different philosophy in this design, the amount of aural information is astounding, coupled with a totally natural presentation. Worth a look. 

OP,

OK, that may explain it. Good, new graded tunes should last the whole 3,000 hours without failure. I am running something like fifty tubes and in the last ten years replaced two because of problems.

Audio Research does the most extensive testing before selling and Upscale, The Tube Store always test, but not to as great an extent. I would simply recommend getting new tubes and your trouble with tubes are likely to be reduced to nothing.

we have an elEectrocompaniet ec4.7 preamp for you very liquid sounding

Dave and Troy

Audio intellect NJ

@audio-b-dog I am strongly considering the Pass Labs.

@ghdprentice These aren't hard tube failures, mostly noise related. I mentioned earlier that may be since I am buying tubes from suppliers where the tubes are "pulls" and maybe not NOS.

Changing tubes all the time? They need to be changes every 3,000 hours. Even if you listen two hours a day... that is every four years. 

I replaced an ARC Ref. 3 preamp with a Pass XP-30, which listed for $16K but I found a used one for $6K. Mine is three-units, one for power and the other two for each channel. However, they sell a two-unit XP-22  for about $10K that I have read is damn close to the XP-30.

First, let me say I loved my ARC Ref 3. It was a serious tube preamp in that it didn't have the over-blown bloom I've heard in other ARC preamps. I owned an LS 22 which sounded rich and wonderful to me at first. The midrange bloom seduced me. After owning it for a while, I realized that bloom obscured weak bass and somewhat shrill treble. The Ref 3 had all the seduction of the LS 22, but everything was balanced and nothing was weak or shrill. The reason I sold it was that I simply could not deal with changng tubes all the time. 

As much as I loved the Ref. 3, I have to say the Pass XP-30 is an improvement. It has clarity and transparency I haven't heard in any other preaImp. I might say that it disappears and lets the music come through unscathed. I hear my turntable and amp, but the preamp has no signature but clarity. I would highly recommend Pass.

@jimbones does your Nad M23 amplifier mentioned in your original post hold up to that classical music challenge for you?

@decooney I should have stated that the main complaint for my system is that the sound gets congested when playing classical music. It sounds flat. I need a open and transparent with high dynamic range. Thanks for following this.

@jimbones wow, sounds like you have all the bases covered and then some, and access to capable people around you to test things out. Very nice.

The only reason I commented was the original post was the possibility of a solid state preamp instead of tube. Last year I thought I’d try something similar, going in reverse of where I came from over a few decades. While it was in interesting exercise to re-validate history. and I enjoy a Class A preamp/amp periodically, I usually go back to my all tube preamp and tube amps system to experience what it does in its own unique way - for those more engaged listening sessions. 

Keep us posted on how the new tube testing goes and wether the original inquiry is solved yet or not.  I’ll be sharing this thread with a few friends doing something similar as you, going through all of the exact same checks and such. Enjoy!  

@decooney  I was hoping to embed my response into your comprehensive post but not sure how to do it so ill try my best to answer.

I agree that I have received many great ideas for which I am thankful and take seriously.

I have a PS Audio Premiere power plant. Not sure I hear an improvement with it but I will make sure to route the preamp through it (right now it goes directly to the wall)

I have recently purchased a Tesla tube that sounds fantastic. Its a bit microphonic when I tap on it or change volume. But I dont believe it is an issue when listening to music. There is no hiss.

My buddy has a tube tester and is kind enough to test when ever I need. so that is not an issue. I feel very lucky as this guy is very knowledgeable.

I have 2 dedicated lines to my hifi equipment that I personally ran. I remember a buddy came over with some kind of noise tester but I dont remember what the results were.

Thank you for your input. It is much appreciated and want to make sure that I personally respond to the suggestions. I was at CAF this weekend and it was a ball. If anyone has the chance, do it.

Heillo @jimbones after reading back through this thread and some of the steps you’ve taken so far, and about to take next, there are helpful suggestions by several members here.  

One is to ensure you have clean power at the outlet -or- your PS power conditioning unit. Whatever you use. The other is solving your curiosity about running a nice SS preamp, and seeing how that goes comparatively in terms of sound and presentation for you. Maybe there is a 30 day demo in our sights. 

While I’ve played with some older pass preamps, and after messing around myself, I don’t disagree with @skinzy - something like the XP-27 designed by Wayne Colburn would be nice to try for sure. It commands a real price. I’ve not tested one, yet I’ve chatted with Nelson a few years about the layering and presentation a really good tube amp brings. Comparing to this preamp, and Nelson’s DIY Korg flat tube preamp could be fun too. Nelson told me he has many SS amp customers using his amplifiers with tube preamps on the front end. I use both and rotate, yet always go back to the tube preamp for my own preferences, imaging, layering, etc. 

In a few cases i’m noting your comments about "tube noise", and your comments about buying some new (as in new re-issue) tubes and trying again. If you purchased tubes from Brent / Andy before, and the tubes tested well, something else comes to mind. Some times tubes get rattled and become compromised in shipping. Also wondering if you’ve tried the other "new" tubes you mentioned, has that helped at all?

Local Tech:

Re-test your tubes, all of them. Do you have a local tech you can go to around your area, bringing all of your small and large input/driver/output tubes and have them tested to possibly identify any culprits in the bunch contributing to your noted tube noise?

Local electrician:

If you’ve not already done this, do you have a local electrician who could come in and test your AC outlets to validate if there is noisy power?

I had something similar going on years back with my tube system and my other solid state system at the time. I ended up rewiring and replacing outlets, when with a Richard Gray power station for my amps and preamp and the issues disappered fwiw. Some other ideas for thought in finding the root cause, if possible. Best of Luck on the journey. 

I sold my VAC Sig and now use the MSB Referece DAC as my pre. Very happy with the move.  I also went from an Aesthetix Rhea phono pre to the Pass XP-27.  I loved the Rhea but hated feeding it tubes and fighting hum.  The Pass sounds as good if not better.  I would definitely look at a Pass Labs Pre.  Good luck.

Denafrips Athena. Zero gain, dead quiet and images very well. 

@miker123 thanks. I also have a PS Audio power plant buty I am not going through it. Maybe I should. Also, my tubes tend not to be a catastrophic failure but get hiss or noisy.

@jimbones  I didn't read the whole thread so I apologize if someone already mentioned this. I had the same problem. My phono stage needed the tubes replaced yearly and then I got a tube headphone amp and was going through tubes every 3 months. The problem was the voltage was high, which fried my tubes. I got a $20-30 voltage meter to confirm the voltage was above 120. It was not much above 123 - 126, but that was enough. I get a step-down transformer and that solved the problem. I hope this helps.

Mike

@jimbones

You have Nice Conrad Johnsen amplifiers why would you want to change out of your CJ pre-amplifier? Which model is it?

I hear pairing CJ is really a good idea. I thought about buying one of the amplifiers to go with my CJ and didn't do it because I wanted to biamp with tube and solid-state.

I would upgrade the preamp from CJ, can't believe tubes would be that much of an issue.

@decooney DOH! Note the EH sound fine in my buddies system but then again the rest of his system is amazing. He has the funds to do it so...

@jimbones I had the EH KT88s in my Cary SLI-80 stock, and never could get myself to warm up to those - at all. Kinda lean and non-engaging in that amp. Did not like then much at all for my amp at the time. Depends on the amp too, and how they are driven, biased, and of course how they work with the rest of your system of course. Your friend can probably tell you why they are available as loaners.  

I only kept them to give away with the amps as backup test tubes. When I upgraded the SLI-80 internally, the next tubes I tried was reissue new Genelex Gold Lyon KT88s. They were nice tubes (balanced top to bottom) for the quad price $ at the time.  My buddy did the PSVane KT88 MKIIs, and those had a little more body and warmth, slightly rolled off on top taking the etch off, and he's been running them 2yrs, loves. them, they did well in his amp.  

As for the overly pricey and limited availability EAT KT88s, maybe I spoke too soon, I noticed just now on a few sites they are unavailable, out of stock.  When I mentioned birthdays, christmas time, or bucket list buy - here is why. You could call TD and ask them about EATs, and they do sell other decent KT88s too.  Hold your breath now, LOL, seems they may not be available much right now anyhow...ugh. https://www.tubedepot.com/products/eat-kt88-diamond-power-vacuum-tube-matched-quad?srsltid=AfmBOoqggHuzJXgBXwvysqp1ORO7lRJ0AXCrUvY4B9PwrTacqQ-pyN2B

Back in the day I used to run push pull amps, can't believe anyone likes 6550's, all balls, no subtlety in my amps and setups, much preferred EL 34 or lower powered KT family.

@decooney im sure they are pricey, but HOW PRICEY ARE THEY LOL!!

I have a buddy with lots of spare kt88 to loan me to try. They are EH 88's so they are not the best but should give me an idea of the change in sound I would get.

@jimbones that’s great, on a different path and price point - my local 55-year-in-business audio dealer has retired clients with upcoming birthdays and Christmas presents due -or- goals for their "bucket list" buys. He has ordered quad sets of E.A.T. KT88s. While they are quite pricey, if you want to splurge, I gather from people who purchased them, they were quite pleased. One other possible way to help squelch your TS KT120 desires, these might fill in nicely as another option. . I’ve never tried them but I might if my amps could run KT88s like yours can!

MFG and specs found here by European Audio Team

https://www.europeanaudioteam.com/en/eat-kt88-diamond-valve-wp000023.html

@decooney Thank you so much. Yes I have heard others say they used kt88 as well. Some prefer 88's other prefer 6550's.  from what I know I can use the 88's without any problems.

@jimbones doing some quick checking over AudioAsylum and TubesAsylum to see if others with CJ Premier 12 and/or 6550s had tried others such as some of the better KT88s.  Also, located some comments indicating the Premier 12s are 650v at the plate. There is some mention, not a lot, but possibility of running good KT88s in place of 6550s maybe in your Premier 12s, worth checking more to see its a candidate. Seems the older discussions of running the Sventlana 6550s, led to others jumping over to KT88s.  But again, you may need to find multiple sources there to know for sure that its safe in your amps.

On a related note, I helped a friend and we upgraded his older Jolida amp, it use to run 6550s, and a few local friends and I suggested to the try the latest PSVane KT88 TII MKII tube in it. The result has been quite pleasing, less of a glassy modern sound, and more of a lush body/warmth to the amp now. Can be nice if that's what you like. Find a replutable tube reseller of KT88s if you try it.   Note: I run TS KT120s in my own QS Monoblock tube amps, and while I like the KT120 too vs. KT150s, if my amps had lower plate voltage, I'd be running really good KT88s as an alternate.  Long story, I cannot, i have the big amps with extra larger transformers and big plate voltage, will burn them up prematurely.   In your case, though - might be worth a nice try, and worth checking with peer P12 owners, and maybe CJ would advise you on this, worth asking. There are some big fans out here who prefer good KT88s over most of the othe TS KT series tubes fwiw.     

@coppy777 yea I dont need more power, it would be a sound quality difference

Different output tubes will certainly sound different but will not increase the amplifier's output. The same energy in produces the same output.  KT 120s can replace those tubes but as you get to the KT150 and especially the KT170 the electrical requirements of the tubes are enough different that unexpected things might happen in some circuits.  So change them only for the sound difference, not performance enhancements.

@decooney yep I initiated that thread. Jeff did not ask me the serial numbers and as far as I know there was only one version of P12. Unless you sent it back to the factory specifically for the Cap upgrade. He does not change out the transformer in that upgrade. In fact the guy I bought the amps from ran it with KT120's in it before he sold it to me!! For some reason I am a bit nervous about putting in KT120, my luck the unit will blow up lol

@jimbones do you have a copy of your original CJ owners manual for your version/series/serial numbers of the Premier 12 amps by chance? I’ve run across this same type of KT120/KT150/KT170 tube use confusion [with other manufacturers] about when you can/cannot run these larger output tubes where [for example] later versions might have had the larger power and output transformers to support the larger output tubes. Sure they might work and play, however is Jeff possibly referring to potential damage that might occur for your particular amps and serial numbers by chance - worth reconfirming. There may be a reason he said no.

Found this on the CJ forum, yes, some are running KT120s in their Premier 12s. A friend of mine has Premier 12s and still runs the 6550s in his fwiw. https://conradjohnsonowners.com/viewtopic.php?t=2320

@coppy777 Last time I spoke to Jeff was about my Power Amp tubes. Jeff is a funny guy (not ha ha funny) I think I caught him on a bad day. Seemed temperamental. I had asked if I can put KT120 in my Premiere 12 and he said "absolutely not" Yest he has specifically told other P12 owners it is ok to do so. I am perplexed. Anyway back to the pre, I am going to go with the recommendation that he told another CJ owner about the Philips tube. So far the Tesla sounds amazing, definitely the best I have heard in my system so I will definitely be buying another one for my stash. 

@jimbones Not sure how far away you are to ship it in - I wonder why you might not consider sending in your current preamp to CJ for a checkover. Maybe they can test, check, make recommended updates?,

My main system is all tube preamp / mono tube amps. I had been searching past few years for a ClassA Pass/Forte’ F44 preamp to match my Pass/Forte 3/1A Class A amplifier in my other system. Found one, have been trying it on rotation this year. Sounds nice for sure. When I swap back in my all tube preamp with the Class A solid state amp there can be this added layering and 3D dimension effect that occurs. I credit the 6SN7 tube preamp. Has its own sound like your CJ gear. Swapping back and forth between the two different types of preamps helps to realize the differences. FYI, I’ve chatted with Nelson about this SS vs Tube preamp topic some a few years back. As I understand it, it’s one of the reasons he came up with the Korg B1 flat tube DIY preamp kit. It offers an option to explore for Pass amp owners. I’d be curious to know if CJ can help you or not to investigate more.

If you can find a used Krell KCT you will have found one of the most sublime preamplifiers ever designed.

I presently own a Mola Mola Makua preamp that is priced WELL below its weight. It’s not inexpensive at around 15k. It can support up to five turntables I believe. It’s every bit as good as anything I’ve heard in my life and maybe you can find one used.  I have a dealer friend who doesn’t handle the line but knows it intimately through other friends of his and states that one must spend over $35,000 to get anything that sounds better.  

If you can find a used Krell KCT you will have found one of the most sublime preamplifiers ever designed.

I presently own a Mola Mola Makua preamp that is priced WELL below its weight. It’s not inexpensive at around 15k. It can support up to five turntables I believe. It’s every bit as good as anything I’ve heard in my life and maybe you can find one used.  I have a dealer friend who doesn’t handle the line but knows it intimately through other friends of his and states that one must spend over $35,000 to get anything that sounds better.  

Ayre ... over the past 10+ years I've owned the K5-Xemp, the KX-5 Twenty and now the KX-R Twenty.  They were all on the warm side and what changed as I upgraded was resolution.

SPL

Since you are already in the rarefied heights of CJ, I would suggest McIntosh C55 as a starting point. It seems to have everything you want.

Less expensive, but not budget-level, would be Pro-Ject Pre-Box RS2, which is balanced I/O, has a dual channel DAC and a selectable tube output (for speakers) and a headphone amp (ss), all in a small form factor.

Sorry if I missed it but what does Jeff Fischel at C-J have to say about your noisy tube issues and does he have a recommended tube for you?

To my taste, it would be hard to find a solid state amplifier that fully substitutes  a tube amp features. McIntosh solid state amplifiers tend to sound quite warm. Just for fun, you can also try a class D amplifier, you may like the result. 

I'm using the same tubes for years, and it is strange to me that you need to change them each 3 months. Perhaps you set very high bias or there is something wrong with your (pre)amplifier (preamplifier tubes normally last too long). 

Actually, the early solid-state CJ preamps had mucu of the 3-D quality that CJ is famous for.  In addition, from the old days, the Audionics BT-2 pramplifiers sound was modeled on the tube Audio Research SP-6 line of tube preamps and carries it off very well.  I don't know much about modern SS Preamps, but the Adcom 565II received a very fine recomendation from Anthony Cordesman, one of The Absolute Sound's original (and in my opinion, best) reviewers.

I owned tube preamps for many years. CJ Premier 14, then I moved to Audio Research. My last ARC preamp was the Reference 3 and I loved it, but did not love having to pull it out of my system to change the tubes. 

I found a Pass Labs XP-30 (MSRP $16K) used for about $6K, so I jumped on it. The sound out of this preamp is every bit as clear and musical as the tube preamps. But it is pricey. However, Most people seem to be purchasing the two-piece (mine is a three-piece) Pass preamp for about $10K. Still expensive, but I wouldn't have any concern about buying one used. Pass makes very solid products. 

And I actually must admit that I like the Pass preamp more than the tube preamps I'd fallen in love with. I called my neighbor over to hear it and immediately he commented on the clarity of the new preamp and my system. It's an improvement.

I too, got tired of the hassle of tubes. I went with a SimAudio Moon P7. For me, it was a great choice as it checks the boxes of what I like.     

jimbones

if it has a volume control then should be easy to try it out. take the preamp out of the system. 

I believe the Philps PCC88 tube that I linked earlier (Tube Depot) is/was being sold by c-j.  If I'm not mistaken, I was told the c-j buys that particular tube.  Below is a link from a post on another forum. That was one person's experience with tube rolling with the ET-5.  From what I've read, it is harder on tubes than some of the other c-j preamps.  The tubes in my PV-14L lasted for 10+ years.  I didn't have the Premier 17LS2 long enough to burn through any tubes. 

I am reporting back as promised. The tube I am using is the Philips E88CC, a NOS military tube from the 1960s. Jeff at cj can supply them. They are the best tube overall that I have tried. They sound warmer overall than the EH and hold up just as well. The EH tube is good too, sharper, brighter.
The Gold Lion 6922 sounded great, perhaps the best of all, but it got noisy very quickly.

All. I believe my issue is that I purchased some of my tubes on ebay and some as "pulls" from well known tube suppliers. Now the tube suppliers are not at fault because when they were tested they were fine. BUT, they were not NEW. Thats not on them Its on me. I now will only purchase new tubes and see how that goes. To Be continued

I run a Premier 14 in my main system and haven't needed to change a tube in years - wonder why you are having issues?  (My Premier 11a power amp in the same system has hit a spate of Chinese tubes that haven't been as reliable as the Gold Lions, though)

Gard to suggest a solid state preamp that has the sound of a tube preamp!  Maybe a Klyne?  SK5 or 5A?

I use a vintage Pioneer SA-1000 integrated amplifier as a preamplifier using its Pre-Out.  Connected to a Reisong A10 tube amplifier for stereo, or a custom Alan Eaton mono amp, the sound is beautiful.

Update: I just got a Tesla tube. Sounds amazing. Probably the best sound Ive ever gotten from the CJ. The only issue is when I change volume, the relays make the tube ring slightly. For now it is something I will tolerate  because it sounds so good. I now have great suggestions for SS preamps and will keep an eye out for a good deal.

@jimbones I did really like the Pass XP-22, just couldn't justify having two preamps. My greatest issue was the more tightly drawn images, this means outer edges of images more defined, with my Coincident pre,  images more slightly blend  with other images on soundstage, more bloom is how some describe it. The Pass is highly resolving/transparent/involving, highs will probably sound more extended vs CJ or most tube pre. 

Pass didn't sound sterile or anemic in my setup. I will say it didn't have the harmonic textures or micro dynamics of my Statement pre.

@sounds_real_audio I have a Holo Spring3 DAC. Not sure if that qualifies as upper echelon but i think it does...

I would not hesitate to consider a very good DAC. Bricasti is excellent and there are sure to be others. The Bricasti that I had has the inputs you require, a very versatile remote and offers so much more then a simple preamp. So rather then pay for a good preamp and then wonder if you DAC is no so good, worth a try. 

Fewer interconnects as well.