Need some help deciding which preamplifier to purchase. I am looking at hagerman audio trumpet and I have a great offer to buy musical fidelity m6x vinyl that is the same price of the hagerman trumpet.
First, I would like to thank everyone for the positive comments regarding my Trumpet MC. It's a design I am very proud of, being able to reduce the cost of a world-class differential tube phono circuit design down to a price regular folk can afford.
As for tubes, I find the X7 tend to focus on tonality (plus noise and microphonics in the first stage), whereas the U7 delivers dynamics, weight, and body to the music.
The 5814 may work ok in the U7 spot, even with the slightly increased heater demand, but not a 12BH7.
I am using a EAT e-glo petite It is great sounding and has multiple gain settings as well as multiple load settings You can purchase from dealers that offer trial and return if not happy I kept mine
Another suggestion for your consideration would be the Wavestream Kinetics Deluxe Reference Level 5.1.
It is an all tube design currently using (2 x 12AX7, 4 x 6DJ8); with extremely low noise ( I believe with the external power supply, noise is below 1uV (one-millionth of a volt ) competing with the best of the solid state phonos; providing 3 front panel selectable inputs providing 62 dB of gain (without the use of SUT’s or FETS) with a useful cartridge range of 0.2mV to 1mV. Having both Balanced and RCA inputs and outputs; adjustable loading available on the back panel via custom loading plugs; and an essentially flat RIAA EQ curve within one tenth of a dB (.1dB) from 3 Hz to 40 Khz.
Naturally, with any tubed phono high gain phono stage you will want to use selected low noise tubes, but I can say when using my NOS Mullards in this phono stage, it is dead quiet with my ears up against the speakers with my Dunlavy Signature SCIV's 91 dB sensitivity.
I love not having to use a step up transformer with this phono stage; not having to worry about the SUT coloring the audio signal, worrying about possible hum issues, and having to use extra interconnects and connections, etc.
The Wavestream Kinetics gives me the pure, high gain, low noise sound that I love. It is incredibly dynamic in both the micro and macro sense, has the "meat on the bones" which many crave, brings the human voice to life, showcases the resonance of the body of cellos and acoustic bass, has the finesse for brushes on cymbals, etc. The music sounds pure and organic. It is not syrupy or tubby or loose in the bass. It truly is an incredible phono stage built by Scott Frankland who offers incredible customer service and support, which is the icing on the cake.
Thanks I order a m6x from music room. I have tube phone stage in my system I decided to upgrade my system with a integrated amplifier and speakers and a pre amplifier.
@tablejockeyyes we sold a LOT of NVO’s back in the day but still sell them, at least one a month so not bad. Very few ever show up on the used market. NVO just released an updated SPA-ONE SE that now uses "ONLY" 14 tubes! It’s our new reference.
sksos-unfortunately, I'm not a user of the NVO-yet. Only been a distant admirer since it was the 15 minute internet darling years back!
When I do the next table upgrade, the SPA will be on my list. They seem to be a rare animal on the used market-get snapped up quick when they are listed.
I will be contacting you when that happens! My 10 year of tubed Fosgate has held off the usual suspects for now. Only 7 tubes, and certainly not a heat concern.
Hey @tablejockeyis that a NVO SPA-2SE unit? 22 tubes! Have used it for many years and it doesn't get that hot or even heat up a room. Just beautiful sound IMO.
What, tubes make heat? Who knew? The thing is, in a phono stage you’re barely going to notice it. They aren’t going to tax your A/C or keep you warm in the winter.
This is kind of like asking which type of DAC is better - R2R, delta-sigma, or FPGA.
The answer is the same. It depends. On everything else. The implementation of the specific type of technology, the rest of your system, your listening preferences, etc.
I don’t have any experience with either of the two phono stages mentioned, so won’t make a recommendation, but I have heard much more discussion about the Hagerman Trumpet and it has been overwhelmingly positive.
I have a tube phono stage with my main turntable, a solid-state unit with my secondary table, and tubes with my other three turntables. I’ve yet to experience any heat issues or have a tube go nuclear in one. I wish I could say I’ve been so lucky with tubes in amplifiers, but tubes in phono stages and preamps are under a lot less stress than the the power tubes are in an amplifier. My better tube phono stages are extremely quiet, more so than the solid state unit.
Soko, I’m sorry but your summary dismissal of tube phono stages and those who prefer them is ridiculous. One could as well say exactly the same about solid state and those who love it, and be just as pointless. And the parting shot about running hot is equally beside the point. That’s how tubes work, by heating up a filament that then gives off electrons. Class A solid state gear runs hot too.
But the 12BH7 will sound better, by all accounts (see TubeDIY Asylum). I haven't tried that type myself. Now, if the 12AU7 is being used as a cathode follower, then it does not do so much sonic damage and can probably be tolerated as is. In my own search for the "best" 12AU7, I ended up with genuine Amperex Bugleboys, because I had a few in my stash, purchased new by me in the early 80s. But even those were bested by the 12FQ7.
Yes that was a typo error. BTW, my tube power amps use 12BH7 tubes and I was told from the manufacturer that I can sub a 12AU7 in place of a 12BH7.
It should be okay to try. The 12bh7 supposedly draws more heater current, but they should otherwise be pretty similar as far as compatibility. So if the circuit can handle a 12bh7, a 12au7 should be fine.
I agree with Mulveling. 12BH7 is another tube type that is said to be a good sub for the 12AU7, which is to say, an upgrade.
Yogiboy said "5914, 5963,6189 and ECC82 are all replacements for the 12AU7 tube". ECC82 is definitely only a 12AU7 by another name. In the case of "5914" in Yogi's quote, I think that's a typo and he meant 5814. The open question is whether 5814 is only yet a third name for a 12AU7, i.e., the same tube with a different alphanumeric code, or actually a different tube electrically that can be freely substituted for a 12AU7/ECC82. As to the 5963 and 6189, all bets are off so far as I am concerned but one can look up the specs in any good tube manual to see whether they are identical to 12AU7/ECC82. I'd preferentially go with a 6CG7, provided a 6.3V filament supply and the ability to reconfigure the socket or with the 12FQ7, provided a 12V filament supply, that requires no soldering. But both of those latter tubes may require a bit more filament current than the 12AU7/ECC82. Most gear can handle it. And I feel very strongly that the sound will improve.
The problem with tube phono stages or any tube equipment is the tubes. There is significant variability in even the same brand so unless the tubes are being tested you have no idea what you are going to get. Tubes self destruct eventually and you never know when they are going to do it. People get psychotic with tube rolling. Tubes are a PITA. Do they ever sound better? On rare occasions yes, in most no and this is coming from a guy who has lived with a tube phono stage for 30 years. I also just bought $46,000 tube amps and there are 20 output tubes in each amp, a glutton for punishment for sure and I am very apprehensive about it. Many people have the opinion these amps are the best at driving my speakers. I certainly hope this is true because I know for a fact JC1+s do a fabulous job and they are 1/2 the price.
I have only ever owned one phono stage. I thought about the Trumpet, but ended up with an Icon Audio PS1 Mkii. I am curious how they compare and if I am hearing what folks are calling that "classic" sound. Anyone more experienced who has heard both and can share their impressions?
It’s semantics, but tube data sheets show 0.35 A heater current (parallel) for 5814, versus 0.30 A for 12AU7. They’re close enough it will never cause a problem for gear.
Yep, which is why I was willing to try the CBS Hytron’s. I am quite impressed with them for the $$. Really opened-up the Trumpet throughout the mids and highs, more ‘air’ was immediately noticed compared to the Brimar’s. And, with the Tele’s really changed the overall Trumpet presentation. Maybe too much of a good thing. I’m actually toying with the idea of getting 2 Mullards to pair with my 2 Telefunken’s. For some reason, I’m thinking that may be an interesting combo. I put in 2 of the stock Mullards, and think older Mullard’s just may work.
Fun with tubes.
Good to hear you still have your Trumpet. It was your glowing reviews that pushed me in the Trumpets direction.
It’s semantics, but tube data sheets show 0.35 A heater current (parallel) for 5814, versus 0.30 A for 12AU7. They’re close enough it will never cause a problem for gear. 12BH7 is another matter. Its heater draws 0.6 A, so that will work in some components but not others. I find 12BH7 generally sounds better than 12AU7. But when you don’t have the PSU overhead for its heaters, I do like the 5814 sub. GE triple mica gray plate "5 star" 5814A are nice, but on the warm side.
EDIT: Oops, I thought someone had mentioned 12BH7 here. Must’ve been another thread. Anyways, check heater current and pin compatibility on any 12AU7 subs. 6189 is another that’s definitely fine in all circumstances. 5963 too (RCA black plates are nice).
The Trumpet MC is a lovely stage at a bargain price. I still own mine, but really need to play with it again (too much gear). In his review, it feels like Fremer just couldn’t be bothered with such a "middle-class priced" piece of gear. He got the sonic signature right, at least - it’s definitely a "warm, big sound", like a few of us have been saying for a while. But you can certainly tweak this with endless tube-rolling combinations, which again he couldn’t be bothered with.
He made a speculative recommendation against pairing to warm cartridges, but once again he couldn’t be bothered to actually try it. For MC, he only used a Cadenza Black. Many years ago I had its predecessor Jubilee MC, and it was too dry for me. I’ve used the Trumpet MC with Benz LPS and Koetsu Coralstone, both of which are definitely warm, and they sound WONDERFUL on this stage - against Fremer’s speculative recommendation. While the result was warm (duh, lol) I didn’t feel the top-end response was too rolled off or shelved. I had Telefunkens in the 12AX7 slots for this. The LPS is particularly tough to drive with tubes, since it doesn’t pair well to SUTs. But the Hagerman did it right. Many high-end tube phono stages will fall short there.
The Trumpet’s manual writing and stock tube selection are simply not going to be as carefully procured as with a 5 or 6-figure phono stage.
I decided to buy musical fidelity m6x to match m6si amplifier. I look at reviews on line and they were positive. I have had tubes In my system and decided to try some different.Everyone has different musical taste and people have there own opinion.
The best 12AU7 is no 12AU7. Replace them with 12FQ7/6FQ7 (depending upon the filament voltage supplied to the socket) or with 6CG7 (which requires a minor re-wiring of the socket for the filament supply only and requires a 6.3V filament supply). Then you've got something.
If you had some, my inclusion of the CBS Hytron black plate 12au7’s changed the sound of the Trumpet, a lot. Much more air and extension over the Brimar 4003’s I had in. Along with my old Telefunken smooth plate 12ax7’s which also add much detail, silky smoothness, and clarity. Yes, the right mix of tubes can change everything.
@bkeske His review was also not the only one. Just came across this one which coincidentally also classifies the unit as a “classic” tube stage.
FWIW, though the unit may reveal more than a listener had heard before, it doesn’t mean the unit is fully resolving. Just in the way I describe the Modwright above, I thought I was getting everything out of it. It wasn’t until I upgraded to yet another phono stage that I realized that there was even more possible improvement from the Modwright. That said, it is a unit that retailed 3-4x that of the Modwright. At this point, I’m open minded and looking forward to being surprised even more.
Don’t get me wrong, the Hagerman is a lovely stage, especially for its price. I also owned a Don Sachs phono with a fancy Hashimoto transformer which ran probably double the cost of the Hagerman, and I would put them at about head to head with each other. It still is an incredible stage for its price point and still very enjoyable despite what I thought to be its limitations. Hearing the sense of air and space better depicted by other stages, though, I could never live with it.
Well, can’t agree on Fremer’s review. I like Mikey, but there are times he confuses me regarding his ‘take’ on some equipment. This was one. His flippant comment right out of the gate stating it’s power cord could flip it over it was so light, as example, was a bit ridiculous. It comes with a switcher plug, not an EIC connection, no way is that thin cable going to flip the unit over. As I say, I have an SBooster connected to it, but utilizes the stock connection, obviously, but with no fear of the cable ‘flipping’ it over. Yes, it is light weight, and compact unit, but that was a silly comment to make. Then his seemingly confusion on the resistance and gain settings was simply perplexing to me. It was like ‘Mikey, use your ears man’. Obviously these settings can change a carts presentation a great deal, and the overall musical presentation, and I’m not convinced he ever utilized the proper settings for his cart, nor took the time to do so. I just got the feeling he plugged it in, fooled around with it quickly, spun a couple records (two artists I listen to a lot, and disagreed with his assessment of Joni’s vocal presentation), and wrote a hastily written review, then removed it without much interest to move onto something else.
I don’t know what to say, @bkeske. I had the same experience as the review. I didn’t even know the review existed until after I tried the unit.
For context, I borrowed a friend’s trumpet in stock form to compare for a few days against the Modwright PH 9.0X when I owned it, mostly because a friend was looking to sell it and I had a number of spare 12AU7 and 12AX7 around. I found the Hagerman came nowhere as close to the presentation of the Modwright with regards to its fidelity and holography. Rolling the tubes with others such as Telefunken, Philips, and Psvane opened up the sound and improved detail and delivery at the frequency extremes, but still I much preferred the Modwright.
Just because I preferred the Modwright in just about every dimension, does that make it “better” objectively? It still comes down to the user’s preference, especially with the synergy with the rest of their system. I find it natural that people will debate and prefer one or the other, but in my case, my experience was similar to that of Fremer’s.
@bigmac1963 Thank you for sharing your appreciation. Hopefully I did not say anything in my guidance that biased either or, and you made the decision given the considerations that were shared. As with most gear selection, there is usually a tradeoff somewhere.
Also, this forum will likely continue with people debating and expressing opinions, and it may make it hard to feel confident in your decision as a result. But I say trust your instinct - you made the decision that you felt was right for you.
Personally, I have the Hagerman Violin which is a cousin of the Trumpet (similar execution level, but has EQ selection capability). Also, have heard several Trumpet versions, both in stock, tube rolled, and modified forms, in various systems and rooms.
I've also known Jim (Jim Hagerman) for 20 years, so, briefly, I can safely say I know the Trumpet quite well and how the comparisons went against different brands. (The Trumpet has the most natural, non-mechanical Also, I myself build phono stages, so I can also comment on more aspects than most users can, knowing what is under the hood.
For those who like reviews, I can recommend Mike Fremer's stereophile review on the Trumpet - Fremer basically says flat out it's the highest level musical phono stage he tried (at the time he wrote the review), and the issues he has with its sound that it's not clinical enough for his taste, but in all fairness he says that it portrays several (high level) recordings better than his 20K$+ phono he uses in his home system. Fremers verdict is that if you want the highest level phono that does not intrude on the sound with mechanical aspects, then the Trumpet is for you. If you like uber-clinical sound it's not your ticket.
My observations: it has a neutral sound. In analytical systems it sounds cold and analytical, in colored systems it sounds colored, and in a neutral system it sounds neutral. Briefly, you can hear the record and the rest of the system, it's not editing it. The warmth or clinicalness will be 98% dependent on the cartridge you use.
Of course, when you use premium tubes instead of new production Russian tubes, it's not a surprise that it sounds darn much better! (Lesson 101 for tube users, should not be a surprise...) Basically, with stock tubes it's a darn good phono, and with pimped out tubes you need a custom phono stage to get any better.
I have no experience on the m6x. What I can say if you want equal to Trumpet you need to look in the 20-50K$ price range. (I judge based on classical, unprocessed music, orchestral and chamber.)
Also, if you want to build an ultimate rig, it can perform as a phono stage in that system. Not sure how the m6x would scale up. The Trumpet holds place from mid level to rarest ultra-fi... don;t let the low price tag fool you. This ain't in the level of the 1-2K$ phono stages. Its sound belongs to the 10-30K$ range, but not its price.
Again, I have the Trumpet, and that Fremer review was terrible. It’s almost as if he rushed through it and didn’t seem to understand how to set it up, nor really cared to understand it fully. Which should be unusual for someone with his experience. I didn’t have the ‘issues’ he seemed to have even when mine was purely stock. Reading that review when it came out, he seemed to have had his selection options all wrong.
I really didn’t get it, and was actually surprised when Jim linked the review to his site.
I would like to thank blisshifi for your opinion and the information you gave me on choosing a amplifier. I decided to purchase the musical fidelity m6x vinyl I think it will be a good match with my turntable and cartridge thanks bigmac1963.
I would like to thank blisshifi for your opinion and the information you gave me on choosing a amplifier. I decided to purchase the musical fidelity m6x vinyl I think it will be a good match with my turntable and cartridge thanks bigmac1963.
Put both preamps side by side. Do not use any loading on the cartridge other than the stock 47KOhms.
Use the same LP and listen to both. Does one of them seem to play more surface noise than the other or sound brighter? Don't get that one.
The surface noise is high frequency overload that manifests as ticks and pops. The brightness is distortion caused by high frequency overload.
FWIW its far easier to design a tube phono section that does not have this problem. With semiconductors the circuit you want to avoid overloading (the input) might be outside of the feedback loop.
I just get frustrated when I am trying to help and people misinterpret and assume that I am influencing decision-making in an illogical or biased manner (lewm, though thank you for acknowledging my clarification) or question my integrity (yogiboy).
I am not alone in classifying the Hagerman as a classic tube phono pre. From Fremer, whose experiences actually mirror mine (and Lewm we’ve already discussed how much I question Fremer!):
"Beyond the JFET input the Trumpet MC is a classic tube design that produced a classic tube sound, though it was also commendably quiet even being driven by low output MCs. So what’s “classic” tube sound? Start with a rich, full midrange that worked wonders on some thin, barren modern recordings and also did well with some older ones... This was a sonic presentation you could crank up to high SPLs and fully enjoy, though the lower-midbass was clearly slightly “thickened” and overall transients were slightly softened... Female voices didn’t fare quite as well, with the added midband “thickness” impeding lightness and flow on recordings that should produce that... Mitchell’s voice on both pressings had a slight but acceptable “chesty” quality when played back on my “big” front end (Mitchell’s voice “soared”), but it became excessive through the Trumpet MC."
Conclusion
The $1099 Hagerman Audio Trumpet MC offers big, warm “tube sound” in a compact, versatile package that can accommodate any MM or MC cartridge you choose to use it with. It will provide sufficient gain and low noise for even the lowest output cartridges and it will accommodate them all while producing quiet, hum-free backgrounds.
I’d advise pairing it with a lean or “analytical” cartridge and not with one that brings its own warmth to the table.
If you are looking for timbral neutrality and a light overall touch, the Trumpet MC might not be for you, though that depends on where your system’s sound is now and where you wish to take it..."
The point remains; each of us has to spend the time listening to a variety of components in order to figure out for onesself what constitutes audio Nirvana. A bunch of opinions from strangers might provide an idea where to start, at best. Sometimes that means you have to spend some money that may take you in the wrong direction. That's why we have Audiogon and other marketplaces.
@yogiboyAgain, "classic" is exactly what I meant. There are "classic" tube stage sounds and what Lew characterizes as "modern" stage sounds. "Classic" was NOT intended to pigeon-hole all tube stages to be colored and slightly rounded on top. This statement was specifically to classify the Hagerman.
Bliss, I wasn’t sure of your meaning. Your statement could have been taken either as a characteristic of the Trumpet or as a blanket characteristic of tube phono stages. Thank you for the clarification.
@lewm I was speaking about the Hagerman specifically, not tube stages in general. I don’t know how my comment was perceived to be a general statement on tube stages. In stock form the Hagerman is known to be rounded. Rolling better tubes helps this, for sure. I’ve had a lot of love for tube phono stages, and generally prefer them unless spending $6K+ for quality solid state.
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