@bigmac1963 Can you describe the rest of your system for us? And what phono cartridge are you using?
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Both phono stages will handle your cartridge well. The benefit of the Musical Fidelity is that it works as a 'stack' with your amplifier. Its SNR specs are quite good, and Musical Fidelity has a pretty solid reputation for their phono stages. Sonically, the M6X is very neutral and will not give you harmonics and bloom, if that is what you are looking for. But some prefer to have harmonics come from their preamplifier, amp, etc. The Hagerman Trumpet will provide the classic tube amp sound which is known to be colored and slightly rounded on top. It uses six tubes, all of which there are plenty of options to upgrade and roll to suit your sonic tastes. It may end up becoming more involving than the M6X, but it likely won't be as resolving. Your choice should come down to: 1) How is your analog sounding now? Can it use more bloom or more resolution? 2) How much do you listen to vinyl vs digital? Is it better to increase the harmonics at the phono stage or at the preamp/amp? 3) How enticing is tube rolling to you, and can you afford to invest down the road to experiment with different tubes? |
I have the Hagerman Trumpet and really like it. Am now running 2 CBS Hytron black plate 12au7’s, and 4 Telefunken/Dynaco smooth plate 12ax7’s. Also added an SBooster power supply. Yes, tubes are ‘to taste’, but my combination is much better that stock, and the tube choices take a lot of the ‘over colorization’ away vs the stock tubes, and IMO much more resolving than stock. Easily runs my lo and hi MI Soundsmith carts. Can’t say enough good things about the Trumpet. Even with the above additions, still around/just under 2K. |
I take issue with Bliss’s comments on tube phono stages in general, unless he’s referring specifically to the Trumpet, which I’ve never heard. Modern tube phono stages in general are not rolled off and lacking in resolution at all. Tubes inherently produce very low distortion and very wide bandwidth, more than an order of magnitude greater than the audio spectrum. A good designer can make full use of these attributes in a phono stage. In tube amplifiers, the coupling transformer can be blamed for adding harmonic distortion and limiting the frequency response. A good tube phono stage can compete on equal footing with solid state, where lab measurements are concerned, except possibly in SN ratio. So I advise the op to listen for himself. |
+1 @lewm |
@lewm I was speaking about the Hagerman specifically, not tube stages in general. I don’t know how my comment was perceived to be a general statement on tube stages. In stock form the Hagerman is known to be rounded. Rolling better tubes helps this, for sure. I’ve had a lot of love for tube phono stages, and generally prefer them unless spending $6K+ for quality solid state. |
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+3 @lewm! |
@yogiboy Again, "classic" is exactly what I meant. There are "classic" tube stage sounds and what Lew characterizes as "modern" stage sounds. "Classic" was NOT intended to pigeon-hole all tube stages to be colored and slightly rounded on top. This statement was specifically to classify the Hagerman. |
The point remains; each of us has to spend the time listening to a variety of components in order to figure out for onesself what constitutes audio Nirvana. A bunch of opinions from strangers might provide an idea where to start, at best. Sometimes that means you have to spend some money that may take you in the wrong direction. That's why we have Audiogon and other marketplaces. |
+1 lewm I just get frustrated when I am trying to help and people misinterpret and assume that I am influencing decision-making in an illogical or biased manner (lewm, though thank you for acknowledging my clarification) or question my integrity (yogiboy). I am not alone in classifying the Hagerman as a classic tube phono pre. From Fremer, whose experiences actually mirror mine (and Lewm we’ve already discussed how much I question Fremer!): "Beyond the JFET input the Trumpet MC is a classic tube design that produced a classic tube sound, though it was also commendably quiet even being driven by low output MCs. So what’s “classic” tube sound? Start with a rich, full midrange that worked wonders on some thin, barren modern recordings and also did well with some older ones... This was a sonic presentation you could crank up to high SPLs and fully enjoy, though the lower-midbass was clearly slightly “thickened” and overall transients were slightly softened... Female voices didn’t fare quite as well, with the added midband “thickness” impeding lightness and flow on recordings that should produce that... Mitchell’s voice on both pressings had a slight but acceptable “chesty” quality when played back on my “big” front end (Mitchell’s voice “soared”), but it became excessive through the Trumpet MC." Conclusion The $1099 Hagerman Audio Trumpet MC offers big, warm “tube sound” in a compact, versatile package that can accommodate any MM or MC cartridge you choose to use it with. It will provide sufficient gain and low noise for even the lowest output cartridges and it will accommodate them all while producing quiet, hum-free backgrounds. I’d advise pairing it with a lean or “analytical” cartridge and not with one that brings its own warmth to the table. If you are looking for timbral neutrality and a light overall touch, the Trumpet MC might not be for you, though that depends on where your system’s sound is now and where you wish to take it..."
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@bigmac1963 Here's something to try: Put both preamps side by side. Do not use any loading on the cartridge other than the stock 47KOhms. Use the same LP and listen to both. Does one of them seem to play more surface noise than the other or sound brighter? Don't get that one. The surface noise is high frequency overload that manifests as ticks and pops. The brightness is distortion caused by high frequency overload. FWIW its far easier to design a tube phono section that does not have this problem. With semiconductors the circuit you want to avoid overloading (the input) might be outside of the feedback loop. |
Again, I have the Trumpet, and that Fremer review was terrible. It’s almost as if he rushed through it and didn’t seem to understand how to set it up, nor really cared to understand it fully. Which should be unusual for someone with his experience. I didn’t have the ‘issues’ he seemed to have even when mine was purely stock. Reading that review when it came out, he seemed to have had his selection options all wrong. I really didn’t get it, and was actually surprised when Jim linked the review to his site. |
Personally, I have the Hagerman Violin which is a cousin of the Trumpet (similar execution level, but has EQ selection capability). Also, have heard several Trumpet versions, both in stock, tube rolled, and modified forms, in various systems and rooms. I've also known Jim (Jim Hagerman) for 20 years, so, briefly, I can safely say I know the Trumpet quite well and how the comparisons went against different brands. (The Trumpet has the most natural, non-mechanical Also, I myself build phono stages, so I can also comment on more aspects than most users can, knowing what is under the hood. For those who like reviews, I can recommend Mike Fremer's stereophile review on the Trumpet - Fremer basically says flat out it's the highest level musical phono stage he tried (at the time he wrote the review), and the issues he has with its sound that it's not clinical enough for his taste, but in all fairness he says that it portrays several (high level) recordings better than his 20K$+ phono he uses in his home system. Fremers verdict is that if you want the highest level phono that does not intrude on the sound with mechanical aspects, then the Trumpet is for you. If you like uber-clinical sound it's not your ticket. My observations: it has a neutral sound. In analytical systems it sounds cold and analytical, in colored systems it sounds colored, and in a neutral system it sounds neutral. Briefly, you can hear the record and the rest of the system, it's not editing it. The warmth or clinicalness will be 98% dependent on the cartridge you use. Of course, when you use premium tubes instead of new production Russian tubes, it's not a surprise that it sounds darn much better! (Lesson 101 for tube users, should not be a surprise...) Basically, with stock tubes it's a darn good phono, and with pimped out tubes you need a custom phono stage to get any better. I have no experience on the m6x. What I can say if you want equal to Trumpet you need to look in the 20-50K$ price range. (I judge based on classical, unprocessed music, orchestral and chamber.) Also, if you want to build an ultimate rig, it can perform as a phono stage in that system. Not sure how the m6x would scale up. The Trumpet holds place from mid level to rarest ultra-fi... don;t let the low price tag fool you. This ain't in the level of the 1-2K$ phono stages. Its sound belongs to the 10-30K$ range, but not its price. |
@bigmac1963 Thank you for sharing your appreciation. Hopefully I did not say anything in my guidance that biased either or, and you made the decision given the considerations that were shared. As with most gear selection, there is usually a tradeoff somewhere. Also, this forum will likely continue with people debating and expressing opinions, and it may make it hard to feel confident in your decision as a result. But I say trust your instinct - you made the decision that you felt was right for you. |
I don’t know what to say, @bkeske. I had the same experience as the review. I didn’t even know the review existed until after I tried the unit. For context, I borrowed a friend’s trumpet in stock form to compare for a few days against the Modwright PH 9.0X when I owned it, mostly because a friend was looking to sell it and I had a number of spare 12AU7 and 12AX7 around. I found the Hagerman came nowhere as close to the presentation of the Modwright with regards to its fidelity and holography. Rolling the tubes with others such as Telefunken, Philips, and Psvane opened up the sound and improved detail and delivery at the frequency extremes, but still I much preferred the Modwright. Just because I preferred the Modwright in just about every dimension, does that make it “better” objectively? It still comes down to the user’s preference, especially with the synergy with the rest of their system. I find it natural that people will debate and prefer one or the other, but in my case, my experience was similar to that of Fremer’s. |
Well, can’t agree on Fremer’s review. I like Mikey, but there are times he confuses me regarding his ‘take’ on some equipment. This was one. His flippant comment right out of the gate stating it’s power cord could flip it over it was so light, as example, was a bit ridiculous. It comes with a switcher plug, not an EIC connection, no way is that thin cable going to flip the unit over. As I say, I have an SBooster connected to it, but utilizes the stock connection, obviously, but with no fear of the cable ‘flipping’ it over. Yes, it is light weight, and compact unit, but that was a silly comment to make. Then his seemingly confusion on the resistance and gain settings was simply perplexing to me. It was like ‘Mikey, use your ears man’. Obviously these settings can change a carts presentation a great deal, and the overall musical presentation, and I’m not convinced he ever utilized the proper settings for his cart, nor took the time to do so. I just got the feeling he plugged it in, fooled around with it quickly, spun a couple records (two artists I listen to a lot, and disagreed with his assessment of Joni’s vocal presentation), and wrote a hastily written review, then removed it without much interest to move onto something else. IMO, a pretty worthless review.
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@bkeske His review was also not the only one. Just came across this one which coincidentally also classifies the unit as a “classic” tube stage. FWIW, though the unit may reveal more than a listener had heard before, it doesn’t mean the unit is fully resolving. Just in the way I describe the Modwright above, I thought I was getting everything out of it. It wasn’t until I upgraded to yet another phono stage that I realized that there was even more possible improvement from the Modwright. That said, it is a unit that retailed 3-4x that of the Modwright. At this point, I’m open minded and looking forward to being surprised even more. Don’t get me wrong, the Hagerman is a lovely stage, especially for its price. I also owned a Don Sachs phono with a fancy Hashimoto transformer which ran probably double the cost of the Hagerman, and I would put them at about head to head with each other. It still is an incredible stage for its price point and still very enjoyable despite what I thought to be its limitations. Hearing the sense of air and space better depicted by other stages, though, I could never live with it. |
If you had some, my inclusion of the CBS Hytron black plate 12au7’s changed the sound of the Trumpet, a lot. Much more air and extension over the Brimar 4003’s I had in. Along with my old Telefunken smooth plate 12ax7’s which also add much detail, silky smoothness, and clarity. Yes, the right mix of tubes can change everything. I get it, you like the ModWright, great, enjoy.
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If you’re having trouble choosing between a tube or solid state phono amp, then what about the ASR Basis Exclusive? https://asraudio.de/files/Test-ToneAudio-USA-HighEnd-Phono-Vorstufe-November2007-EN.pdf |
The Trumpet MC is a lovely stage at a bargain price. I still own mine, but really need to play with it again (too much gear). In his review, it feels like Fremer just couldn’t be bothered with such a "middle-class priced" piece of gear. He got the sonic signature right, at least - it’s definitely a "warm, big sound", like a few of us have been saying for a while. But you can certainly tweak this with endless tube-rolling combinations, which again he couldn’t be bothered with. He made a speculative recommendation against pairing to warm cartridges, but once again he couldn’t be bothered to actually try it. For MC, he only used a Cadenza Black. Many years ago I had its predecessor Jubilee MC, and it was too dry for me. I’ve used the Trumpet MC with Benz LPS and Koetsu Coralstone, both of which are definitely warm, and they sound WONDERFUL on this stage - against Fremer’s speculative recommendation. While the result was warm (duh, lol) I didn’t feel the top-end response was too rolled off or shelved. I had Telefunkens in the 12AX7 slots for this. The LPS is particularly tough to drive with tubes, since it doesn’t pair well to SUTs. But the Hagerman did it right. Many high-end tube phono stages will fall short there. The Trumpet’s manual writing and stock tube selection are simply not going to be as carefully procured as with a 5 or 6-figure phono stage. |
It’s semantics, but tube data sheets show 0.35 A heater current (parallel) for 5814, versus 0.30 A for 12AU7. They’re close enough it will never cause a problem for gear. 12BH7 is another matter. Its heater draws 0.6 A, so that will work in some components but not others. I find 12BH7 generally sounds better than 12AU7. But when you don’t have the PSU overhead for its heaters, I do like the 5814 sub. GE triple mica gray plate "5 star" 5814A are nice, but on the warm side. |
Yep, which is why I was willing to try the CBS Hytron’s. I am quite impressed with them for the $$. Really opened-up the Trumpet throughout the mids and highs, more ‘air’ was immediately noticed compared to the Brimar’s. And, with the Tele’s really changed the overall Trumpet presentation. Maybe too much of a good thing. I’m actually toying with the idea of getting 2 Mullards to pair with my 2 Telefunken’s. For some reason, I’m thinking that may be an interesting combo. I put in 2 of the stock Mullards, and think older Mullard’s just may work. Fun with tubes. Good to hear you still have your Trumpet. It was your glowing reviews that pushed me in the Trumpets direction. |
Greetings I’m fortunate to have both types of phono preamps in my system. One tube and two SS. I enjoy both of them and listen to both daily. I lean more towards the tube phono preamp. There is always a plus and minus to both forms. P‘If you can get both types. Or as the years go by you might eventually have both types in your system. ‘Enjoy your music no matter what kind of system you have. Joe Nies
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The problem with tube phono stages or any tube equipment is the tubes. There is significant variability in even the same brand so unless the tubes are being tested you have no idea what you are going to get. Tubes self destruct eventually and you never know when they are going to do it. People get psychotic with tube rolling. Tubes are a PITA. Do they ever sound better? On rare occasions yes, in most no and this is coming from a guy who has lived with a tube phono stage for 30 years. I also just bought $46,000 tube amps and there are 20 output tubes in each amp, a glutton for punishment for sure and I am very apprehensive about it. Many people have the opinion these amps are the best at driving my speakers. I certainly hope this is true because I know for a fact JC1+s do a fabulous job and they are 1/2 the price. |
I agree with Mulveling. 12BH7 is another tube type that is said to be a good sub for the 12AU7, which is to say, an upgrade. Yogiboy said "5914, 5963,6189 and ECC82 are all replacements for the 12AU7 tube". ECC82 is definitely only a 12AU7 by another name. In the case of "5914" in Yogi's quote, I think that's a typo and he meant 5814. The open question is whether 5814 is only yet a third name for a 12AU7, i.e., the same tube with a different alphanumeric code, or actually a different tube electrically that can be freely substituted for a 12AU7/ECC82. As to the 5963 and 6189, all bets are off so far as I am concerned but one can look up the specs in any good tube manual to see whether they are identical to 12AU7/ECC82. I'd preferentially go with a 6CG7, provided a 6.3V filament supply and the ability to reconfigure the socket or with the 12FQ7, provided a 12V filament supply, that requires no soldering. But both of those latter tubes may require a bit more filament current than the 12AU7/ECC82. Most gear can handle it. And I feel very strongly that the sound will improve.
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Yes that was a typo error. BTW, my tube power amps use 12BH7 tubes and I was told from the manufacturer that I can sub a 12AU7 in place of a 12BH7. It should be okay to try. The 12bh7 supposedly draws more heater current, but they should otherwise be pretty similar as far as compatibility. So if the circuit can handle a 12bh7, a 12au7 should be fine. |
But the 12BH7 will sound better, by all accounts (see TubeDIY Asylum). I haven't tried that type myself. Now, if the 12AU7 is being used as a cathode follower, then it does not do so much sonic damage and can probably be tolerated as is. In my own search for the "best" 12AU7, I ended up with genuine Amperex Bugleboys, because I had a few in my stash, purchased new by me in the early 80s. But even those were bested by the 12FQ7. |
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Soko, I’m sorry but your summary dismissal of tube phono stages and those who prefer them is ridiculous. One could as well say exactly the same about solid state and those who love it, and be just as pointless. And the parting shot about running hot is equally beside the point. That’s how tubes work, by heating up a filament that then gives off electrons. Class A solid state gear runs hot too. |
What, tubes make heat? Who knew? The thing is, in a phono stage you’re barely going to notice it. They aren’t going to tax your A/C or keep you warm in the winter. This is kind of like asking which type of DAC is better - R2R, delta-sigma, or FPGA. The answer is the same. It depends. On everything else. The implementation of the specific type of technology, the rest of your system, your listening preferences, etc. I don’t have any experience with either of the two phono stages mentioned, so won’t make a recommendation, but I have heard much more discussion about the Hagerman Trumpet and it has been overwhelmingly positive. I have a tube phono stage with my main turntable, a solid-state unit with my secondary table, and tubes with my other three turntables. I’ve yet to experience any heat issues or have a tube go nuclear in one. I wish I could say I’ve been so lucky with tubes in amplifiers, but tubes in phono stages and preamps are under a lot less stress than the the power tubes are in an amplifier. My better tube phono stages are extremely quiet, more so than the solid state unit. |