So you think wire conductors in cables are directional? Think again...
Here is a very relevant discussion among physicists about the directionality...the way signal and electrons should flow... based on conductor orientation. Some esoteric, high-end manufacturers say they listen to each conductor to see which way the signal should flow for the best audio quality.
Read this discussion. Will it make you rethink what you’re being told and sold?
Belden isn’t a person. It’s a company. It may be company policy to not mention cable directionality but the people who work there may think otherwise.
Case in point: my speaker cables were made by a former Belden engineer who worked there for over 20 years. He labeled his cables as directional and said so with the paperwork that came with them.
Maybe he felt the other guys couldn’t hear what he was hearing. Kind of like, here.
Yes I believe the type of wire makes a difference because they have different levels of resistance and capacitance which is measurable. How come the manufacturer like Belden doesn’t say that their cable needs to be oriented in a specific direction? Are they dumb?
That's a really insightful thought. Since childhood, I thought conductors are directional but now I am having a second thought. For wires and cables for quality audio transmission, do check out: https://gadglobal.co.in/
I am very much not new to audio. This is not an objectivist/subjectivist thing. I was very much make fun of both. Anyone who uses those terms in a serious manner is not an audiophile, but they want everyone else to think they are. This had been going on a long time. It will stop for the most part eventually. The hanger ons keep getting older and older.
Maybe it's the format. I dunno. I never said, nor implied, you were new to audio, just to this site (unless you're another reincarnation). If you think we're all gonna die off and leave you king of the hill, well thanks for that humor, again.
BTW...nothing you have posted has proven or justified the ridiculous prices of these "high-end" cables that can prove nothing. As a matter of fact, your physics posts have proven otherwise, that the conductor doesn't even matter.
"You must be new around these parts. What you're describing, as if for the first time, has been going on for way too many years. Nothing about any of these discussions is new- just the latest crop of objectivists raising old arguments."
I am very much not new to audio. This is not an objectivist/subjectivist thing. I was very much make fun of both. Anyone who uses those terms in a serious manner is not an audiophile, but they want everyone else to think they are. This had been going on a long time. It will stop for the most part eventually. The hanger ons keep getting older and older.
" Electric charges typically flow as slowly as a river of warm putty. And in AC circuits, the moving charges don’t move forward at all, instead they sit in one place and vibrate."
Taken directly from one of your cited sources.
And this... "
Electric energy can even flow in a direction opposite to that of the electric current. In a single wire, electric energy can move continuously forward while the direction of the electric current is slowly backwards. In AC circuits the energy flows continuously forward while the charges are alternating back and forth at high frequency. The charges wiggle, while the energy flows forward; electric current is not energy flow."
From your cited source here... Electric energy can even flow in a direction opposite to that of the electric current. In a single wire, electric energy can move continuously forward while the direction of the electric current is slowly backwards. In AC circuits the energy flows continuously forward while the charges are alternating back and forth at high frequency. The charges wiggle, while the energy flows forward; electric current is not energy flow.
In the red corner, we have the amateur objectivists, who have brought their top high school level physics game, and a small but loud group of supporters.
It the blue corner, we have the professional subjectivists, supported by a loud rancorous crowd. They have also brought their top level high school physics game, but have been working extra hard on their irrelevance game.
The bell will ring in 30 seconds. We expect lots of action, lots of slapping, but few blows being landed in this seemingly never ending fight. There appears to be a lack of interest in knowing what is going on in either side, so this is likely to go the full 15 rounds.
Get your popcorn ready, it is going to be entertaining.
You must be new around these parts. What you're describing, as if for the first time, has been going on for way too many years. Nothing about any of these discussions is new- just the latest crop of objectivists raising old arguments.
andy21,295 posts05-14-2021 4:28pmIf Feynman couldn't explain it, what hopes are there for you guys to be able to explain it.
Which brings us to the point of what? That high-end cable manufacturers can't possibly explain it, either? But...AudioScienceReview.com proved that measurements from 10Hz-200Khz are virtually non-existent from a cheap cable to an expensive cable...and the expensive cable actually ADDED noise from it's antenna effect. Not a good outcome for $2,400.00. But....that's just my subjective opinion.
The signal does not flow in the wire. The signal energy flows through the space between the wires in the form of an electromagnetic wave.
The signal energy does not travel back and forth as it moves at near the speed of light (in a vacuum) from the source to the load. The signal energy electromagnetic wave moves in one direction from the source to the load.
Here is some reading material for you.
"
The quick answer
Inside the wires, the "something" moves very, very slowly, almost as slowly as the minute hand on a clock. Electric current is like slowly flowing water inside a hose. Very slow, so perhaps a flow of syrup. Even maple syrup moves too fast, so that's not a good analogy. Electric charges typically flow as slowly as a river of warm putty. And in AC circuits, the moving charges don't move forward at all, instead they sit in one place and vibrate. Energy can only flow rapidly in an electric circuit because metals are already filled with this "putty." If we push on one end of a column of putty, the far end moves almost instantly. Energy flows fast, yet an electric current is a very slow flow.
The complicated answer
Within all metals there is a substance which can move. This stuff has several different names: the Sea of Charge, or the Electron Sea, or the Electron Gas, or "charge." We often call it "electricity," and state that electric currents are flows of electricity. Calling it "electricity" can be misleading because many people believe that electricity is a form of energy, yet charge is not energy, and currents are not flows of energy. Also it can be misleading because the Sea of Charge exists within in all metal objects, all the time, even when the metal hasn't been made into a wire and is not part of an electric device. If the Electron Sea is "electricity," then we must say that all metals are always full of electricity, and that batteries are simply electricity-pumps. Better to call it by the name "charge-sea," and avoid the misleading word "electricity" entirely.
During an electric current, the metal wire stays still and the sea of charge flows along through it. When the flashlight switch is turned off and the lightbulb goes dark, the charge-sea stops moving forward. Even though it stops moving, the charge-sea is still inside of that wire. If the flashlight is again turned on, but then two light bulbs are connected in parallel instead of one, the electric current will have twice as large a value, and twice as much light will be created. And most important, the charge-sea within the battery's wires will flow twice as fast. In other words, the speed of the charges is proportional to the value of electric current; small current means slow charge-flow, large current means high speed. Zero current means the charges have stopped in place. Note however that an electric current does not have just one speed within any circuit. Charges speed up whenever they flow into a thinner wire. The high current in a large flash-lantern's lightbulb will be much faster than the same current in the other conductors in the lantern. Even though an electric current is a very slow flow of charges, we can't know the actual speed of flow unless first we know the thickness of the wires, as well as the *value* (the amperes) of the current in the wires.
If a thin wire is connected in a circuit end to end with a thick wire, it turns out that the charges in the thin wire move faster. This makes sense: it works just like water in rivers. If a huge wide river moves into a narrow channel, the water speeds up. When the channel opens out again downstream, the river slows down again. The electric current inside a very thin wire will be tend to be fast, even if the value of current is fairly low. This means that we can't know the speed of the flowing charge-sea unless we know how thick the wires are.
If a copper wire is connected into a series circuit with an aluminum wire of the same diameter, the charges in the copper will flow slower. This occurs because there is one movable charge per each atom in the metals, but there are more atoms packed into the copper than into the aluminum, so there is more charge in each bit of copper. When the charge-sea flows into the copper, it gets packed together and slows down. When it flows out into the aluminum, it spreads out a bit and speeds up. This means that we cannot know how fast the charges flow unless we know how dense the charge-sea is within the metal.
The speed of electric currentSince nothing visibly moves when the charge-sea flows, we cannot measure the speed of its flow by eye. Instead we do it by making some assumptions and doing a calculation. Let's say we have an electric current in normal lamp-cord connected to bright light bulb. The electric current works out to be a flow of approximatly 3 inches per hour. Very slow!
...and that's for DC."
You really should read your own posts before trying to make a point. AC current doesn't flow...it wiggles or vibrates back and for according to your source. Your post from the physics explanation of energy flowing in waves would also negate the need for an expensive wire, since it's not actually travelling through through the wire. More proof from physicists that expensive cables are a scam.
The single most important piece of information on the right side of the calculator is the net power loss in the cable. This is a measure of how much of the amplifier power is dissipated in the cable, before it ever gets to the loudspeaker. The lower the power loss, the more power actually goes into making sound. For an 8-ohm loudspeaker connected to 40 feet of 18-gauge zip cord, the power loss is about ½ dB, which is neither audible nor significant, especially for an amplifier with high power output. So, from the standpoint of power transmission, 18-gauge wire is suitable for many home applications. But for longer cable runs, the losses can be greater and you should consider changing to a larger diameter cable.
Another result to note is that, for many cables, the roll-off frequency is well above 20 kHz, the upper limit of the audible frequency range. If the roll-off frequency is below 80 kHz, you might consider changing your cable to a larger diameter."
andy21,294 posts05-13-2021 8:47pmNot sure why but Audioquest has a lot of hates from the "objectivist" bunch. Their dBS has generated a lot of ridicules.
It’s funny to see these frequency response and distortion measurement.
Thank you for posting the videos in support of expensive cables performing better. Actually...they don’t... AudioQuest was actually worse at the expense of $2,400.00.
Game, set, match. The argument for better performance is nothing more than lies.
In the red corner, we have the amateur objectivists, who have brought their top high school level physics game, and a small but loud group of supporters.
For sure being objectivist or subjectivist made no sense...Save for children playing in a schoolyard...
Science is not so narrowingly minded.... Me too.... Open working minds are trustful and skeptic at the same time.... Being one or the other has no appeal....
In the red corner, we have the amateur objectivists, who have brought their top high school level physics game, and a small but loud group of supporters.
It the blue corner, we have the professional subjectivists, supported by a loud rancorous crowd. They have also brought their top level high school physics game, but have been working extra hard on their irrelevance game.
The bell will ring in 30 seconds. We expect lots of action, lots of slapping, but few blows being landed in this seemingly never ending fight. There appears to be a lack of interest in knowing what is going on in either side, so this is likely to go the full 15 rounds.
Get your popcorn ready, it is going to be entertaining.
The human body is itself a measuring apparatus but contrary to our other measuring tools our body react to many parameters combined in many dimensions at the same time and translate that in a "sensation"....
This is a citation from my last post here above and i want to add an example of what i speak about when i speak about the multidimensional parameters which are timed together and synchronized in the sound perception by the brain which are not measurable by conventional tool of engineering...
Audio is more complex than electronical engineering only... This is my grain of salt in the soup of those who vouch by their "electrical engineering" faith and such partial knowledge erase any possibilities about " directed wiring" experience of perception....
This article is not directly connected to the wire subject but illustrate well how human perception is not reducible to an external object like signals in a wire and a corresponding stimulus sensation or his absence.... Reality is not so simple it is not an object with a subject it is a bit more complicated than that..... Sorry.... Reality resulted from a recreation by the brain and is participated by the consciousness which is NEVER external totally to it.... It is the reason why there is no science at the singular but only SCIENCES in the plural....
Here is an article describing surprizing way the brain reorganize sensations/stimulis at different time scale or from different dimensions, and i recommend it especially for those here who always speak of " placebo" instead of figuring out for themselves the complexities in perception :
No ones talking about skin effect. You're talking about different things. Current is not energy. Current flows in the wire, energy flows along the wire.
Any phenomenon can be reduced to some set of parameters on a scale this is measured numbers...
For example temperature is a thermodynamical phenomena about molecules dynamic distributions in volume of space reflected at our body scale by the 2 QUALITATIVE polarities related to the sensation "warm" and "cold"...
There is no cold or warm in nature only measured numbers.... We need a conscious finite body with itself an internal thermodynamical distributions of molecules DIFFERENT from the external system which is not finite like our but indefinite relative to our body to speak about "warm or cold"....
Then when we speak of warm or cold we dont speak about a DEFINITE numbers but about a set of different numbers relative to these polarities in us that define our LIMITATIONS and BOUNDARIES...
The human body is itself a measuring apparatus but contrary to our other measuring tools our body react to many parameters combined in many dimensions at the same time and translate that in a "sensation"....
Then what is "audible sensation" for the human ears is itself the expression of a mutiple sets of polarites distributed in many dimensions which are not measured by any of our tools simultenously if they are measurable for now at all...
And anyway even if this is a placebo effect why erasing it?
What good doctor try to erase placebo effect from his drug? In the opposite he reinforce it, saying to his patient that he prays God to make his drug better if he is WISE and not a credulous member of the scientism club...
True scientist use beliefs....They dont erased them by the "law of their faith" like in a cult....
True scientist erase sometimes belief only for the time of an experiment....They are rational without being slave of "reason"....
So....now it's being said the current doesn't flow through the conductor, but the spaces between the conductors.
Current flows through the conductor by the charge carriers. Energy flows through the EM field in the direction the current flows from high to low. The signal is carried by the energy and modulated by the changing levels of voltage.
What is tiresome is attacking a post without argument.... And attacking someone feeling or expression... especially with only a few bad words without nothing else...
I like oldhvmec because he always speak with humor....And he is a competent mechanic....He even ubderstant pipe organ.... This is enough for me...
Anyway it is better when we accept all character in a meeting of souls....Then i will accept yours...
So....now it's being said the current doesn't flow through the conductor, but the spaces between the conductors. How a bout solid conductors? What happens when you take away the conductor?
Keep in mind that the discussion is about audio frequencies. Not RF, radar, microwave...
Cable directionality has to do with where the copper was mined because electrons move differently depending on which hemisphere you’re talking about.
A cable made from copper mined in Utah will favor being plugged in the opposite way from a cable made from copper mined in South America to say nothing of copper mined in Asia.
A good article from a company I place a lot of credience in (post below)! I do believe in cable directionality and place all my cables / interconnects accordingly. I also believe in Oxygen free copper and directional grain flow effects. I also believe in silver end connectors over gold plated end connectors. Differences are audible and repeatable. I'm happy.......
There is a common misconception that signals are carried in conductors. Somehow this association crosses over to the idea that conductors carry both signals and energy. A few simple calculations can show that this is a false idea. Consider a 50-ohm transmission line carrying a 5-volt logic signal. The initial current at switch closure is 500 mA. A typical trace is a a gram-mole of copper that has 6 x 1023 copper atoms (Avogadro’s number). Each atom can contribute one electron to current flow. Knowing the charge on an electron makes it easy to show that the average electron velocity for 500 mA is a few centimeters per second. What is even more interesting is that only a trillion electrons are involved in this current flow. This means that only one electron in a trillion carries the current. This also says that the magnetic field that moves energy is not located in the conductors. The only explanation that makes sense is that energy in the magnetic field must be located in the space between two conductors.Conductors end up directing energy flow - not carrying the energy.
Very good article it shows how the idea of cable direction at audio level is nonsense unless you think the number of electrons change with direction. The signal will flow either way through the field at the same speed using the same free electrons.
I think your response is one-dimensional. I'm suggesting the physics theories are wrong - I'm suggesting our perception of music is a 'point in time'
When we listen to music we recognize our brain can augment our senses with memories.
And as far as the theologian perhaps he's giving credit to Decartes' "I think therefore I am" and trying to apply the mathematical concept of transference.
@andy2 wrote about Insertion Loss. I was curious, so I spent some time reading about it. He’s right: There are two objective measurements, Insertion Loss and Return Loss, that measure signal attenuation in metal and fiber cables. These are evidently well-understood phenomena that are commonly measured.
He’s also right that Insertion Loss and Return Loss show different results depending upon which end of the cable the measurements are taken from. These two measurable parameters clearly show a difference in measurement depending upon the direction of the cable.
If you do some reading, you’ll quickly find many engineering shops that offer this measurement service. You’ll also find that it’s common to measure from both sides of the cable, then average the different results from each side to get a single basic reference value for Insertion and Return loss.
There’s no argument about this - it’s real, measurable, and there’s a whole industry built around it.
But - can a person hear these directional differences in a 3 foot interconnect? I have no idea and I’m not asserting an opinion about that. Some people claim to be able to hear it; some people say they don’t hear it. That’s fine with me because this is basically the normal state of everything in the world.
All I’m asserting is that cable directionality is in fact measurable as @andy2 wrote, via the Insertion and Return Loss parameters. And if there’s a measurable difference, however small, then it seems reasonable to believe that some people may be able to hear that difference.
From time to time I find some very interesting topics and points of view to consider. I even learn a thing or two from those who have something of value to offer.
And then their are the ones that have to keep rehashing old crap that has been beat to death. Especially where you know this thread will go.
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