So you think wire conductors in cables are directional? Think again...
Here is a very relevant discussion among physicists about the directionality...the way signal and electrons should flow... based on conductor orientation. Some esoteric, high-end manufacturers say they listen to each conductor to see which way the signal should flow for the best audio quality.
Read this discussion. Will it make you rethink what you’re being told and sold?
...and oh....BTW...not one person has come up with evidence that the wire conductors in cables are directional.
Why?...because they aren't.
And if you simply cannot understand the simple concept without attempting to get into molecular physics at audio frequencies, you're hopelessly in search of something that isn't there. So much has been said that has been deleted because of contradictory statements....while trying to change the subject away from the original post.
audition__audio831 posts05-17-2021 3:04pmedgewound is a musician. Explains a ton based on my experience with musicians especially those who play through amplification.
To some a little knowledge is a wonderful thing and to others a curse. Those who dont know what they dont know are a bane.
So typical to call for the removal of comments you dont like, especially when these offensive comments are no worse that others that jumped from your keyboard moments earlier.
Stay as long as you like edgewound, but perhaps you should quit while you are behind.
I've actually been in the audio business full time for the last 33 years and counting.
It's amazing the things one can learn about audio hardware/software in the professional and consumer markets after 4 decades with hands-on experience and how transfers through being a musician and attending both professional and consumer trade shows. CES, NAMM, AES. The consumer market has no standards body to answer to when it comes to outrageous claims. AES has pretty stringent standards when it comes to specs publishing. CES not so much.
I trust your "moronic" comment will be removed, because it's abusive. But....with the fratboy mentality of rules enforcement around here, I highly doubt it
The moderators do a pretty good job here. If you disagree, I suggest you direct your concerns to them for resolution. Or, are you a "new" user who's been previously suspended from the site multiple times?
A detective, you're not. I've only one registration. Never been banned to come back as someone/something else. Maybe I should be flattered?
If you don't know the relevance of 0.05% measurement accuracy to the measurement (or design) of audio equipment, you could just say so instead of trying to make it look like the fault of someone else. A high school drop out would probably admit he or she does not know.
That is 0.004db as a level difference. At 20KHz, it is a frequency shift in a filter of 10Hz. You could just say I don't understand the relevance of 0.05% measurement error.
As they say, the criminal tends to come back at the scene of the crime. Or something like that. And yes, the pattern is unmistakable, different name or not. Sick dude
csmgolf664 posts05-17-2021 5:09pmI see that Danad, ATDavid, Audio2design, Dletch2, and the sadly short-lived Hotdogbob (I am sure I am missing more) has crafted another profile within the last week. He keeps getting the boot and keeps coming back. It is truly a sad existence if all you have in life to keep busy is create multiple screen names on an audio hobbyist site, and relentlessly argue about stuff that doesn't really matter.
andy21,301 posts05-17-2021 4:51pmIn my day job, we wouldn’t trust any equipment. We actually have to characterize equipment to make sure they measure what they advertise.
Apparently, some here just google up some equipment and think they are good enough.
$10K for 0.05% accuracy out to 1MHz
I suppose some people have the data to back up 0.05% is good enough to measure human hearing. I don’t, but if you post something, you need to back up your claims.
That is sufficiency accuracy for a cable in audio.
Again, a statement without evidence or proof.
Interesting how some can so readily believe in what they search on google. :-)
************************************************************** If you are unfamiliar with a topic, i.e. electronics manufacturing, then it is best to not comment. Nothing in audio is controlled to 0.05%. Not at the time of manufacturing, not over time, and not over temperature. With a cable, the impact would be volume (resistance, 0.05% is inaudible), or a filter frequency (0.05% is inaudible).
So yes, 0.05% is more than good enough for human hearing, or any practical manufacturing process.
edgewound is a musician. Explains a ton based on my experience with musicians especially those who play through amplification.
To some a little knowledge is a wonderful thing and to others a curse. Those who dont know what they dont know are a bane.
So typical to call for the removal of comments you dont like, especially when these offensive comments are no worse that others that jumped from your keyboard moments earlier.
Stay as long as you like edgewound, but perhaps you should quit while you are behind.
I trust
your "moronic" comment will be removed, because it's abusive.
But....with the fratboy mentality of rules enforcement around here, I
highly doubt it
The moderators do a pretty good job here. If you disagree, I suggest you direct your concerns to them for resolution. Or, are you a "new" user who's been previously suspended from the site multiple times?
Time to get yerself educated. The problem with self-education is the glaring reality that you have not been educated in the first place.
You do know that a 1 1/2 yr old child is self aware? Right?
I trust your "moronic" comment will be removed, because it's abusive. But....with the fratboy mentality of rules enforcement around here, I highly doubt it
I see that Danad, ATDavid, Audio2design, Dletch2, and the sadly short-lived Hotdogbob (I am sure I am missing more) has crafted another profile within the last week. He keeps getting the boot and keeps coming back. It is truly a sad existence if all you have in life to keep busy is create multiple screen names on an audio hobbyist site, and relentlessly argue about stuff that doesn't really matter.
I never said i couldn't hear the differences in good vs. not so good cables. Being a guitar player for 47+ years, and a gigging musician, I can definitely hear and FEEL the difference in cables. Especially the difference of long cable runs through passive vs. active pickups.
My post several hours ago about directionality in conductors was removed because I pointed out that a thread from 2010 avoided the issue, and pretty much proved my point with this thread. Don't tell me that my comments were abusive, because the same type of abusive comments have not been removed from other's posts.
The point is the sheer absurd expense of the high end cables and the claims they make with zero technical justification, unlike those made by Blue Jeans Cable.
I trust your "moronic" comment will be removed, because it's abusive. But....with the fratboy mentality of rules enforcement around here, I highly doubt it.
In my day job, we wouldn’t trust any equipment. We actually have to characterize equipment to make sure they measure what they advertise.
Apparently, some here just google up some equipment and think they are good enough.
$10K for 0.05% accuracy out to 1MHz
I suppose some people have the data to back up 0.05% is good enough to measure human hearing. I don’t, but if you post something, you need to back up your claims.
That is sufficiency accuracy for a cable in audio.
Again, a statement without evidence or proof.
Interesting how some can so readily believe in what they search on google. :-)
For crying out loud, what is wrong with you people? I’ve never said, implied or proffered anything saying measurements don’t matter. Just that they can’t measure everything.
You guys are bending over backwards to justify your inability to hear and having to rely on test measurements to make yourself feel better. If you can’t hear it, fine. No one is going to fault you for that. If you can’t afford it and begrudge others who can, then that’s a different kettle of fish, isn’t it?
Practically every, single argument lets slip the cost factor, even when it’s not brought up by those who are willing to pay just a little more for something that sounds better. Get over it.
As for the better accuracy of the more expensive test equipment and the negating of it since it’s not necessary for your purposes, you’re gonna have to do better than that. All sugabooger is doing is some really poor rationalizing, spilling his popcorn.
Even John Atkinson mentioned the limits of some modern day test equipment that couldn’t hold a candle to the ones he learned with in the old days. Those scopes showed more, varying info than the newer ones which showed nothing amiss.
As for HP now having a different owner and a new name and calling me out on it is juvenile, at best, and shows just how desperate you are to be right. The machine he uses still is called HP. You're bordering on moronic.
BTW...HP test equipment is now Agilent...has been for years. Time to get yerself educated. The problem with self-education is the glaring reality that you have not been educated in the first place.
It's interesting that you now admit cable measurements are actually useful, and Blue Jeans Cable is very forthcoming about what they do. here's a bit of very useful info from their website. I have never bought from nor have a relationship with this company, but I do appreciate the honesty put forth.
nonoise7,052 posts05-17-2021 2:49pmSo now you're back pedaling on what constitutes the cost of the cheaper test equipment? That maybe they're all created equal and is just price exchange of different countries. Right......
As for ASR, it's been ridiculed for how they measure and costs of it's test equipment by other test measuring sites. Surely you've know that for awhile. As for Gabriel Galen's expertise, you've got so much to learn. Just a hobbyist? Try google.
The Klippel speaker measuring equipment they use is absolutely state of the art. The headphone testing system is similarly very high end. The Audio Precision gear is not the very latest and greatest, but it still reveals issues in what should be state of the art products.
I would have to pedal forward to back peddle. Galen made an unqualified off the cuff comment. Their $80K unit was at Belden, and would be for very high frequency cables. He makes no justification for that cost or precision requirement for audio. Even $8K he has not justified. A quick search shows $10K for 0.05% accuracy out to 1MHz. No need for that level of accuracy. At audio frequencies and well beyond, a signal generator, scope, and precision resistor and I can measure within a % or 2. I can even get pretty close on characteristic impedance. That's $1-2K. That is sufficiency accuracy for a cable in audio.
It has not been called HP for 22 years. One of the best HP LCR meter for 20Hz - 300Khz is <$5,000 now. Times have changed. I can find equivalent or better specs from a tier 2 for 1/2 that.
You made a comment about people claiming to be experts, but you are quoting someone without the expertise to know if what they said is accurate or relevant.
All it takes nowadays to be an "expert" is to just go out and buy some test equipment you can afford and viola!, you're an expert. Now you can measure to your hearts content being guided by your expectation bias as the measurements you make bear out what you always believed to be true. It is, after all, your intention.
Gabriel Galen procured lots of patents that Belden Cables holds and with 32 years as one of their chief engineers, can't be summarily dismissed. He's been wholly of the objectivist camp for most of his entire life. He says that it's impossible to accurately measure inductance with any meter priced below $8,000. The Hewlett-Packard LCR machine he measures on costs $80,000. How many objectivists posting here have access to or use this level of test equipment?
When Gabriel set out to design his line of Iconoclast cables (done at Blue Jeans Cables) he discovered that UP- OCC, OFE, ETPC copper all sound different from each other yet it can't be measured. He still builds by measurement (each cable comes with it's own certificate with all the specs), but lets the consumer choose which level of copper to pick for the build. Even this objectivists admits that not everything can be measured.
So now you’re back pedaling on what constitutes the cost of the cheaper test equipment? That maybe they’re all created equal and is just the price exchange of different countries. Right......
As for ASR, it’s been ridiculed for how they measure and the costs of it’s test equipment by other test measuring sites. Surely you’ve know that for awhile. As for Gabriel Galen’s expertise, you’ve got so much to learn. Just a hobbyist? Try google.
Enjoy your popcorn from the cheap seats. The view from there is very limited but you can still have fun.
nonoise7,051 posts05-17-2021 1:56pmAll it takes nowadays to be an "expert" is to just go out and buy some test equipment you can afford and viola!, you're an expert. Now you can measure to your hearts content being guided by your expectation bias as the measurements you make bear out what you always believed to be true. It is, after all, your intention.
Gabriel Galen procured lots of patents that Belden Cables holds and with 32 years as one of their chief engineers, can't be summarily dismissed. He's been wholly of the objectivist camp for most of his entire life. He says that it's impossible to accurately measure inductance with any meter priced below $8,000. The Hewlett-Packard LCR machine he measures on costs $80,000. How many objectivists posting here have access to or use this level of test equipment?
Did Galen Gareis qualify what he meant by accurate? $500 may be enough for many things. Test equipment that is $8,000 from a Western supplier may be $2,000 from an Asian supplier. Then there is EBAY. On ASR I am surprised by how sophisticated many people's home test benches are. Far better than almost all cable vendors. That is marketing speak by Galen. It impresses his target audience, and is obviously successful
Can you please explain Galen's expertise on audio or audio equipment. I do not think he has any other than being a hobbyist, and he does not even have relevant design experience. All we are going on is his word it sounds better. That is not very objective at all. Seems all you need to be an expert is to claim you can hear things. Galen does have a lot in common with a lot of people posting here.
andy21,300 posts05-17-2021 1:07pmA lot of the so called "objectivists" believe in some of the so called "measurement websites". They measure some frequency responses, some basic distortions and make some wild claims that nobody cares to check.
It's funny how these "objectivists" are taken for a ride and they just blindly believe without even questioning about the validity of these so called "measurements". How funny as they are being duped.
On my third order of popcorn, movie style of course. The subjectivists are pulling out their heavy hitting, well frankly I am not sure what to call this. Measurements are repeatable. The test methodologies can be documents so that others can recreate the experiment. Come on now, you are not even trying with this post.
All it takes nowadays to be an "expert" is to just go out and buy some test equipment you can afford and viola!, you're an expert. Now you can measure to your hearts content being guided by your expectation bias as the measurements you make bear out what you always believed to be true. It is, after all, your intention.
Gabriel Galen procured lots of patents that Belden Cables holds and with 32 years as one of their chief engineers, can't be summarily dismissed. He's been wholly of the objectivist camp for most of his entire life. He says that it's impossible to accurately measure inductance with any meter priced below $8,000. The Hewlett-Packard LCR machine he measures on costs $80,000. How many objectivists posting here have access to or use this level of test equipment?
When Gabriel set out to design his line of Iconoclast cables (done at Blue Jeans Cables) he discovered that UP- OCC, OFE, ETPC copper all sound different from each other yet it can't be measured. He still builds by measurement (each cable comes with it's own certificate with all the specs), but lets the consumer choose which level of copper to pick for the build. Even this objectivists admits that not everything can be measured.
A lot of the so called "objectivists" believe in some of the so called "measurement websites". They measure some frequency responses, some basic distortions and make some wild claims that nobody cares to check.
It's funny how these "objectivists" are taken for a ride and they just blindly believe without even questioning about the validity of these so called "measurements". How funny as they are being duped.
They think that human ears are inferior to measuring tools...They use the limits of their tools and project it on the human ears like if it was only an external material tool... They claim, blinded with their parameters coming from ONE dimension only that we cannot hear - 200 Db signal noise ratio for example... They are not even wrong...
They dont know that "music" dont exist in the world.... Only sounds...
It is consciousness creation called "art"...
What we hear in music and speech cannot be reduced to all measures...It can be correlated yes , reduced never...This is Science....This is the basis of good design...
But ultimately what is there to be measured, the "sounds" are TRANSFORMED by the act of hearing them in something, music or speech, which we can understand but cannot totally measured on all his dimensions simultaneously like the brain did it... We created also speech when speaking or music when playing an instrument, which convey the soul in an intricate way which cannot be understood WITHOUT a translation by the soul of the listener... There is nothing more to measure, the essential is not there to be measured but to be understood by the will and heart and not only the mind...Shannon information theory is not a poem, the equations live on a scale which is not the same scale of meaning than a poem....
One day some robot will say to me that he can think and some will believe it...
I will never believe it because to think we need to be connected to all the universe at once or to the source of meaning ....
And by mathematical definition an A. I. is a disconnected tools...Save for cultist and superstitious mind like transhumanism zealots whatever sophisticated they are....
Like migrating birds navigating earth, human body perceive with way more than the external limited tools in one dimension and limited parameters....The human body is itself an integrated measuring set of tools connected to many dimensions exceeding any of our normal external tools...
clearthinker360 posts05-16-2021 4:24am" Electric charges typically flow as slowly as a river of warm putty. And in AC circuits, the moving charges don’t move forward at all, instead they sit in one place and vibrate."
Hi Edgewound Seems like nonsense to me. Suggest you buy a mile of cable. Connect one end to the mains. Connect other end to your hand. Eat your lunch while you wait for the river of warm putty to reach your hand. Reconsider your opinion. Ho hum.
Hey @clearthinker....I didn't write this. But keep failing to actually pay attention. It's clear you're not understanding the concepts.
Hello, I think it boils down to how resolving your system is. If you are using a $300 surround sound receiver pushing $10 speakers I doubt you will hear the difference. On the other hand if you had a six figure system I am sure you would hear the difference if your hearing is good enough. Not everyone who is an audiophile can hear subtle differences in music or cables. Sometimes I wish I could turn on and off that level of that sense. Another thought is some people putting equipment and cables on scanning equipment and eureka they have the perfect speaker or the perfect cable. Not! We know that their are some things science cannot explain. PS Audio tried to design a good sounding speaker and a phono preamp on a computer. It did not completely work. Bottom line is there are some systems that you can tell when a cable is reversed or when one power cable sounds good and another doesn’t- to you. Remember, it doesn’t sound good to you but someone else may really enjoy the sounds it produces. That’s why we have so many different companies who produce all of this stuff we love to listen to.
Some of these responses are hilarious. Reverse the coax cable on your DirecTV. Does the picture change? Keep living in your fantasy world...Physicists clearly don’t know anything....but you geniuses sure do.
" Electric charges typically flow as slowly as a river of warm putty. And in AC circuits, the moving charges don’t move forward at all, instead they sit in one place and vibrate."
Had Edgewound read a little farther down the page he would have read this:
The size of the wiggle
And about AC... how far do the electrons move as they vibrate back and forth? Well, we know that a one-amp current in 1mm wire is moving at 8.4cm per hour, so in one second it moves:
8.4cm / 3600sec = .00233 cm/sec
And in 1/60 of a second it will travel back and forth by
= .00233cm/sec * (1/60) = .0000389cm or around .00002 in.
This simple calculation is for a square wave. For a sine wave we’d integrate the velocity to determine the width of electron travel.
So for a typical AC current in a typical lamp cord, the electrons don’t actually "flow," instead they vibrate back and forth by about a hundred-thousandth of an inch.
Design the system to avoid analog cables entirely... Streamer (or any other digital sources) --- digital Coax---> DSP/DAC/Amp at the driver. Analog cables are only needed for analog sources. All this fervor for a phono cable - the things are so inherently noisy, it couldn't possibly matter. Cable and passive crossover discussions are mute, and should have been for decades - obsolete artifacts. Maybe you're arguing about technology your fathers and grandfather's used, or for changing speaker cone leads and re-wiring gear internals? From my perspective, go digital (1's and 0's aren't easily offended) all the way to each driver. Passive crossovers and analog cables are topics for the History Channel.
" Electric charges typically flow as slowly as a river of warm putty. And in AC circuits, the moving charges don’t move forward at all, instead they sit in one place and vibrate."
Hi Edgewound Seems like nonsense to me. Suggest you buy a mile of cable. Connect one end to the mains. Connect other end to your hand. Eat your lunch while you wait for the river of warm putty to reach your hand. Reconsider your opinion. Ho hum.
Too bad these conversations usually end up going sideways.
The threads get longer and longer, and useful information more and more tedious to eek out.
Question. Once someone goes through a rebirth/reincarnation here on AGon, what age are they when they come back? Asking because the rebirthers seem to me a little bit dumber every cycle? Or perhaps this is because they are having to change their voice and writing style? Perhaps this is what is clouding the so-called message? Kind of like a little child pretending to be someone else on a phone call. They never make sense because the bulk of their thinking abilities are being allocated to sounding different.
No one outside this thread looks at it like your kind do. You prod, stick and stir and sit back and pretend to be a neutral observer.
If this is the latest version of who I think you are, your attempts at disguising yourself by taking a different tack are starting to show.
As for the reluctance on the part of others, including women, to chime in, it's not because of us. They stay clear because of you and the way you infest a conversation.
Do you really see yourself as "getting things done, making change happen, rocking that boat, and willing to stand out"? How brave and righteous of you. The way you describe yourself borders on delusional. Where's my Boy Scout badge?
I would suggest leaving the quotes to others. It is not your forte. Sartre’s quote has valuable meaning. Your’s not so much. Sartre’s is about doers and non doers. It’s about people who gets things done. Yours pretty much advocates conformity whether you intended or not. In the world, it’s the people who rock the boat that make change happen. They are willing to stand out. If you are competent that is not a fault and often essential to generate change. It takes confidence and courage.
Lols. You looked up my quote and got the one from Sartre.
You couldn’t find it because it came directly from me. That’s why google couldn’t find it either Looks who still busy growing up. See that’s then intention of the quote.
Here’s another one for you. "You throw a rock over the fence. The dog that barks first is the one got hit."
The popcorn is excellent. I have my own machine in the audio and theater room. You take yourself too seriously. People outside this hobby would look at this thread and wonder what is wrong with the people. There are two or three threads about why no young audiophiles and few female audiophiles. This thread is a clear answer to that question.
Still hard for me to believe anyone thinks wire direction makes a difference, much less an audible one. Sounds like audio gaslighting. If you can prove it somehow, get new wire. Nobody wants wire acting as a semiconductor. Makes carrying AC rather difficult.
Who really cares? You're not here for the listening pleasure, you're here for a pie fight.
This had been going on a long time. It will stop for the most part eventually. The hanger ons keep getting older and older.
It's just winning by attrition by your own words so you and your "team" can claim victory on just another audio site. Then it's crusade, over. You need to stop obsessing like this is a life or death struggle, unless it gives your life some sort of meaning. Love to see you act like this at some audio show and laugh at the reaction you'd get. There'd be no time to enjoy the popcorn.
And the subjectivists have now brought in their quotable expert (that’s what the links claim at least but can we trust anyone that claims transmission lines at audible frequencies?). How will the objectivists answer? Will this get bloody?
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