@kosst_amojan I fear you are getting angry again.😡 We all have to live with our limitations, you included.😁
Snake oil, fraud, confirmation bias
It is becoming increasingly apparent that many threads about legitimate topics devolve into one or more of the contributors here making claims of snake oil, fraud, or confirmation bias thereby derailing the conversation beyond the valid and relevant thread topic and this is getting ridiculous. For anyone here who honestly holds the position that there is snake oil and fraud in the world of Music Reproduction Systems I challenge them to prove their claims in court it should be an easy task based on the claims they make here in Audiogon AND they will make a fortune because in the US once proven they can file a class action suit and profit enormously from the efforts of others to deceive. These people regularly claim that "there is no evidence" that things such as cables or fuses make a difference when in actual fact Audiogon is filled with evidence that these things make very real differences in
Music Reproduction Systems of course those who claim fraud reject that evidence as "confirmation bias" but in absence of any documentation from them they are only repeating the claim they have made so many times that has been refuted many times here by those who have demonstrated to there satisfaction that they make a difference. I think in actual truth the real fraudsters here are those that repeatedly make these claims of snake oil and fraud and often they have no experience to back up there claims they simply say the claims are impossible!
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Um yes a lot of creatures hear better than humans I was referring to test equipment. And in addition to ego what we have on those creatures is the ability to speak and express our opinions. Otherwise I am sure these forums would be littered with opinionated bats. In the meantime we are stuck with humans and our hearing. And koost excellent "catch" calling me out on my "false statement" . |
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@kosst_amojan How should a chef measure the flavor of a meal? How does a nice young las who receives a bouquet of roses from her beau measure the fragrance? How do you or anyone else measure the incredibly complex process that is an individual's hearing? Are everyone's ears the same? Does everyone's brain process sound the same as everyone else? If so, is that a constant from which we can discern from your measurements that we all hear exactly the same? Come on... your religion of "All things are measurable" is well... your religion. Does that make a tape measure or sound pressure meter your god? Again...I sympathize that you can't hear cable differences or component burn-in etc. Truth be told, I would not process the smell of those roses well as my sense of smell is not nearly as acute as most folks I encounter. Wonder how we can measure that? |
If it’s not worth the time arguing about it why are you still arguing about it? 😛 Also, if I am a liar how come my pants aren’t on fire? 🔥 Your "theory" of the fuse holders is all wet. And I’ll tell you why. It’s all wet because directionality based on how the fuse contacts the fuse holder is *unpredictable.* The way the fuse contacts the fuse when you rotate it is random. Therefore you cannot predict which direction the fuse will sound best. By contrast, the directionality of the fuse is completely *non-random*. The fuse always sounds best in the direction of least resistance. It is not (rpt not) random. And because fuse direction is predictable it means the fuse holder has nothing to do with it. Follow? So, your "theory" of the fuse holder makes about as much sense as the theory that the directionality of cables and interconnects is determined by how the RCA connectors on both ends make contact. "If it doesn't make sense it's not true." - Judge Judy |
I just don’t like the liars who tell some nube they hear the direction of their fuse. @kosst_amojanWhen I encountered the idea of fuse directionality, I thought it was pretty funny. I still do, but I also figured out what it is they are hearing and measured it. You can do it too- with a simple DVM. The funny thing is, the snake oil guys didn’t want to hear about how I could measure what was going on (and for the record, its the voltage drop across the fuse, which can be different when you reverse it because the contacts of the fuse sit differently in the holder; you can get the same effect by spinning the fuse in the holder without reversing it. When the voltage drop is minimized it sounds better). You would think that having some objective confirmation would have been helpful but no. My theory is they don’t want the mystery to go away. More importantly though, its not worth the time arguing about it! |
Actually the clocks work even when the person doesn't know the clocks are there. Or if a friend comes over. Assuming you have friends. The clocks can be hidden in a drawer or whatever. So it cannot be expectation bias or imagination or placebo effect. Roses are red, violets are blue, I'm a schizophrenic and so am I. 🤡 |
It is great to see folks challenging wild claims and marketing hype. This is very healthy. This should be encouraged. Those who hear something different in instances when they really shouldn't, have an awful lot to learn. Here is an article about menus and how they affect people’s perception .http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20171120-the-secret-tricks-hidden-inside-restaurant-menus People who deny that this clever expectation setting marketing hype (even when not true at all) has any affect on them are just fooling themselves. |
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OP, I love to laugh even if it's really tough. Congrats on posting one of the most hilarious post of Audiogon especially For anyone here who honestly holds the position that there is snake oil and fraud in the world of Music Reproduction Systems I challenge them to prove their claims in court That might work, but afraid that judges and jury in that so-called "court" are just the same unaware and uneducated dummies that believe in 'magic' and Hollywood's fairy tales. |
I see no legitimacy in a declarative, one sided, accusatory blast at what is perception and unsubstantiated guess work, wherein the OP wishes legal action is pursued aginst undeclared manufacturers for groundless ill defined harms. Sue them all for their possible claims for products may or may not have caused. Yeah. Good luck with that. As for debates on electronic goods and accessories, The only and apparently everlasting obstacle of contention remains the aspect of perception vs supposed sciences.. I’m good with which ever has more weight. More creedance. Most legitimate. I will however use what I have to determine either positions validity. My methodology is exactly the same as it is for anyone. Hearing and listening to the attributes of the item under examination. Viewing or understanding its esthetics. Fully realizing its actual financial impact. Establishing on a personal level a degree of quantification for the said thing’s performance vs price. That’s it. Nothing more or less. Just listening., looking and thinking. It is what 99% of humans do to make decisions on audio equipment. They walk into the showroom with possibly a copy of consumer reports, or some audio magazine under their arm and ask to see the yada yada thingy described in the mag’s article. They listen. Then usually, almost always ask what else is comparable I might have, and then I’ll show that to them. Which one do they always buy? Its always a coin toss. Always. Too many human conditions are in the mix. It ain’t all about the specs for the immense majority of the buying public. And it never will be solely about technical specs. Technical specs say a lot of important things. They say nothing about system synergy. Neither will they persuade someone to put themselves into harms way moneywise. Fairy dust or snake oil be damned. Those are the bullets the scientific camp shoots first. When push comes to shove, the weapons they use to buy with however is always the same thing everyone else uses. Sensibility and available funding. the only exception here is the same thing which drives much of upper range audio, and certainly this site and those like it. ego. |
@geoffkait, jea48 jea48 said: jea48 geoffkait response: >>>>>>That’s weird. I thought everyone had an opinion on such a controversial topic. 😳 Have you checked for a pulse recently? @geoffkait, No geoffkait, not everyone is obsessed with fuse directionality as you are. Just curious geoffkait, what personal listening experience do you have with fuse directionality? What piece of your audio system equipment did you find that made the biggest difference? . |
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hifiman5 said: @jea48 Why should Geoff or anyone else want to involve themselves with Audio Asylum? ugh. The format there is crazy! @ hifiman5, Hardly. 9524 posts. AA member geoffkait - Manufacturer, Machina Dynamicahttps://cgi.audioasylum.com/cgi/mail.mpl?user_ID=2678&f=general As for the format, it’s an acquired taste. https://www.audioasylum.com/audio/general/bbs.html At first I had trouble following posts until it finally started making sense to me. I prefer the classic format. . |
clearthink
It is becoming increasingly apparent that many threads about legitimate topics devolve into one or more of the contributors here making claims of snake oil, fraud, or confirmation bias thereby derailing the conversation beyond the valid and relevant thread topic and this is getting ridiculous.When threads come off the rail such as this, one solution is to use the "report this" link and alert the moderator that the response is off-topic. There are some angry, self-righteous posters here and there's no need to allow them to prevent an otherwise productive conversation. |
jea48 @geoffkait , I do not have any opinion one way or the other on fuse directionality. I do not have any personal experience listening to the direction of a fuse. Now that’s out of the way. >>>>>>That’s weird. I thought everyone had an opinion on such a controversial topic. 😳 Have you checked for a pulse recently? jea48 I notice you never try to inject fuse directionality on the Cable Asylum. We both know in short order a Bored Member would chime in and tell you to take to another AA forum. >>>>Huh? With one or two exceptions, I never (rpt never) post on Cable Asylum. Wire directionality would probably be a worthwhile subject for Cable Asylum if you can stand the fierce region of the locals. I've almost never posted on Cable, not in all these years. I’m mean, come on, what would be the point? I’m not a masochist. I do post on General, Prophead and of course, Isolation Ward, which was set up specifically for your humble scribe and May Belt following the Intelligent Chip blow up about 12 years ago. My, how time files. I used to post primarily on Tweakers Asylum but obviously that forum is kind of dead. Oh, well, nothing last forever. 😢 jea48 Come to think of it, I haven’t seen a post of yours on the Cable Asylum for quite awhile. https://www.audioasylum.com/audio/cables/bbs.html >>>>There are reasons for everything. As I said, I almost never posted there. Case solved.😃 . |
@kosst_amojan, You won't see geoffkait posting about fuse directionality on the Cable Asylum. You won't see a posted message asking do cables really sound different? Are cables just snake oil? Will I really hear a difference between ICs? Here is what you will see. https://www.audioasylum.com/audio/cables/bbs.html Those posting on the Cable Asylum already know they can hear a difference in cables. They are not going there to have someone try to change their minds telling them no you can't. |
@geoffkait , I do not have any opinion one way or the other on fuse directionality. I do not have any personal experience listening to the direction of a fuse. Now that’s out of the way. I notice you never try to inject fuse directionality on the Cable Asylum. We both know in short order a Bored Member would chime in and tell you to take to another AA forum. Come to think of it, I haven’t seen a post of yours on the Cable Asylum for quite awhile. https://www.audioasylum.com/audio/cables/bbs.html . |
Actually, the audio hobby in general and this forum in particular are not intended to be or set up to be a peer review of anything. Especially when many of the targets of tweakaphobe scorn and anger are quantum mechanical in nature or things that go BUMP in the night. The technology of many audiophile devices the last twenty years or so, including aftermarket fuses, is beyond whatever the average bear can remember from school. This is not the faculty of Harvard or the AES or the Journal of Physics. A peer review is by uh, peers. What we have here, my friends, are not (rpt not) peers. Let the wailing and hand wringing begin! Education is what’s left when you subtract everything you forgot from school. A sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. If thy eye offend thee cut it out. |
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The way I look at it is if you’re happy with the purchase then that is all the evidence needed. It’s none of my business how you spend your money. And vice versa. Hearing is a personal thing, nobody knows what others can hear or not hear and all the "evidence" in the world of measurements and double blind tests are meaningless. If you hear a difference in a fuse, God bless you and enjoy it. If you can’t hear the difference between components to justify the cost, there is nothing wrong with you -- so afford others that courtesy. |
How about a 12 Angry Men forum. "But you said we could forget about all the other stuff." " It’s always difficult to keep personal prejudice out of a thing like this. And wherever you run into it, prejudice always obscures the truth." "You're not goin' to intimidate me - I'm *entitled* to my opinion!" "You can’t prove it!" |
@jea48 I like what AA does and feel it is time for Agon to do the same thing. The few that don’t want to add value to our cable discussions, but just angrily take cable threads off coarse should not be allowed to post on this subject. It is always the same few and often with unfortunate name calling and cyber wise cracks. It is predictable, boring, and often greatly harms the usefulness and civility of the thread. It is unfortunate that this extreme step is needed, but the actions of a few is driving long time posters away from this site and turning off many potential new active members. The reality is this is in fact happening. Audiogon can no longer ignore this reality. |
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There’s no such thing as an audio emergency, and there is no such thing as offering a piece of audio equipment with intent to do audio harm that is litigatable. Can the color of a car do harm? Can cotton vs. wool vs. synthetic T-shirts do intentional harm? Can this be quantified? Some people like hard over eggs, I happen to like over easy with toast. Is one more harmful than the other by definition? Can we qualify or quantify with measuring equipment the flavor or textural experience of eggs cooked one way vs. another? Is scambling them a culinary abomination worth suing over? |
@clear think First things first. Please invest into Anger Management. Not litigation. Lawyers are the only ones which will get the true benefit in a class action suit. Trust me. Been there and done that with the Federal Govt already.. its the American way. .. and yes, please check out that little dot under the L key. It’s a huge benefit for reading your flaming discourse in a more intelligent manner. You don’t even have to use the shift key to add it.. just find the L and push the key below it with the same finger you use to type your often aggressive exclamatory falderal. Remember, freedom of speech doesn’t mean you have the freedom to say anything to anyone. There are limits. You might want to look into what those limitations reference. = = = = = = RE Rocks? There are rocks that will help my system sound better? Where? How much? Is there a choice in colors? Exactly how big are these things? Do you put them in a blender with a cup of Snake oil set it to puree, and later sprinkle them on the wires? What?? Sounds very cool. Sort of like racing stripes on a car. Once applied, the carr is forever a race car. It will go much faster, right? Can’t wait! |
Maybe an additional cables Agon forum might be the answer. Cables 2.0 or something or other. Here is how Audio Asylum handles it. It works. It works quite well. The Cable Asylum is for those who have decided that audio cables make a sonic difference. If you do not feel that audio cables do sound different, then do not post here. Posts that state that audio cables sound the same, or that all one needs is zip cord and/or dimestore coax, may be deleted, re-directed or other actions taken at the sole discretion of the moderators or the Bored. If you post more than one such post, you may be banned from the Cable Asylum. . |
