Small Office - Wilson vs B&W vs Kef

For that size of room, you should also consider the Wilson Tiny Tots and Duette 2's.  At one point, I had the Duette 2's in a room 4 times the size of your room and they were awesome.  They would be killer in your room.  I am not a fan of the B&W sound.  I have always found KEF speakers to be bright.  A speaker that would fatigue me quickly.  I think the Watt Puppy are too large for your room.  I recently heard Viking Acoustic Berlin speakers.  They would go great in your room also.  

Typo - meant to say Tune Tots not Tiny Tots

The B&W speakers all sound like B&W speakers, in my mind, so you have to want that particular sound. You can’t really exchange them. Make yourself happy.

I am not sure about the Tune tots but may I suggest bespoke speakers from Fritz? The bass in the small 2-way is pretty amazing for the size. Talk to him about your placement issues, he can make you speakers specifically for close-wall placement. I think you’ll find it a better sounding and higher value choice. Fritz uses similar or better drivers but to my ear he tunes them better than Wilson, and can do custom arrangements.  Personally, I prefer the units with the ring radiators.

I am not very familiar with McIntosh, but I ended up with a Luxman integrated and am very happy.

The Harbeth P3ESR should fit the bill!!
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=harbeth+p3esr+review&docid=608045666519482446&mid=5D7EB...

I have the same room size but have made it a little bigger by being a little creative. Take a look here.

https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/7605

I was thinking I have to settle on a small monitor in this room since it is small. Adding the GIK acoustic panels made me think I could get a floor stander in here. My room actually sounds really good with the gear you see in the photos.

Researching DSP approaches convinced me that I can get a bigger speaker in here. My listening is 80% digital and the rest FM radio and a modified SACD/CD player with analog only output.

The speaker I am going to get is the Yamaha NS5000. It is a rather big speaker for a "bookshelf" and has a huge woofer. Not something you would think someone should put into a small room. I am in conversation with a fellow A’goner from Canada who just bought the NS5000 and his room is just a little bigger than mine and not acoustically treated yet.

The feedback from him was that the speaker sounds incredible in a nearfield setup. Even better than at the dealer’s massive room (which makes sense). I also listen at low to mid volume level and keep my office door open. All these help in getting more enjoyable sound in the small room.

These are the following speakers I have gone out and demoed for my office.

Vivid Kaya 45
Magico A3
KEF Reference 1
Yamaha NS5000
Vandersteen Treo CT
Paradigm Persona 3F

Almost all of them were very agreeable with me (except 1), with the Yamaha coming out on top. I also think the Yamaha has the most bass out of all of these speakers, though this is not an important factor for me.

Getting back to DSP. I was looking at hardware based DSP solutions implemented in a preamp or integrated amp. This was limiting to me and not making me happy since I was more interested in preamps and amps that did not have internal DSP (Luxman, Mola Mola). What saved the day for me was learning about doing DSP using convolution files running in ROON or JRiver. My understanding after some research (including reading a book) was that DSP done via convolution files has the capability to outperform the hardware based approaches since there is more control in the configuration settings.

Now I am not a DSP expert so the chances of me utilizing this technology properly is rather low. However, I found out that this DSP convolution file creation can be outsourced and done remotely by DSP audio professionals. The cost was not that expensive based on the quotes I got.

I can give you more details if you are interested via PM. I was just reading today on the Audiostream web site a review of the Sonore OpticalRendu. It is another component in the solution for my office I came up with a few months ago.

Convolution filters attempt to completely perfect the output of a speaker.  They're IMHO over hyped, and limited in their effectiveness.

Better to get speakers you like the sound of and use DSP with a delicate hand. Here's how I used Roon to clean up my own room response.

https://speakermakersjourney.blogspot.com/2020/01/the-snr-1-room-response-and-roon.html

When you say in your opinion have you tried it yourself with a good microphone or are you just assuming?

The guy I plan on having do the convolution files for me is mitchco from Audiophile Style web site. Have a look through his book or his reviews on that web site. I find that the guys on the AS web site are rather knowledgeable, especially digital 

https://accuratesound.ca/

https://www.amazon.com/Accurate-Sound-Reproduction-Using-DSP-ebook/dp/B01FURPS40/ref=sr_1_1?crid=XTNC15INNFHT&dchild=1&keywords=accurate+sound+reproduction+using+dsp&qid=1585462693&sprefix=Accurate+Sound%2Caps%2C213&sr=8-1

That size room? Tekton Ulfberht. I hear they disappear.

I make my own loudspeakers, so I have 2 calibrated microphones. The issue with convolution are several.

I mean, by all means, go ahead and try it. The issues are in my mind that you cannot fix room acoustic issues such as reflection points from speaker output alone, measuring how we perceive sound in a non-anechoic field is hard, and lastly, most of us are just not that sensitive to the phase issues these systems purport to fix. All of these points are made better by Floyd Toole than me, but I’m in agreement. What I haven’t seen him do is complain about the CPU needed to execute them.

One critical point Toole makes, which convolution filters cannot solve, is that how we perceive sound is not how a microphone does. Dirac is one type of product that has some interesting techniques to address this, so if you are going with the hammer approach to using DSP, I’d suggest looking into DiracLive instead.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not against EQ, I’m against expecting too much from them. Convolution filters are cute, and naive. In a heavily treated room with 1 listening location I am sure they’ll work fine. Dirac seems to have a much more sophisticated approach to how they calculate their filters and attempts to deal with the criticism Toole makes. Personally, I’m on the team of using room treatment plus a few carefully chosen filters to fix what I must, and I am extremely happy that way.

And lets not forget speaker dispersion.  Hsu and Klipsch make some small 2-ways with horn loaded tweeters which are probably going to sound a lot better in cramped spaces.

Hello eisenb11,

I don't know what your budget is, but since I work for Paradigm & Anthem I thought I would make you aware that we are running multiple limited time Promotions on several our products currently.

20% off Select Anthem Products: Click the highlighted banner at the top
https://www.anthemav.com/

Up to 20% off with Trade Up on Paradigm Persona Series:
https://www.paradigm.com/en/tradeup-promotion

All STR Products and Persona Series are completely made in our factory in Mississauga (Toronto) Canada. 

You can find your closest dealer through our locator at:
https://www.paradigm.com/en/dealer-locator

Thank you for your time and possible consideration.  Please don't hesitate to reach out to me directly if you have further questions.

Respectfully,
Chris

I would by a speaker that doesn't knowingly need a work-around. 

Thanks all for the comments. Reading them in the background. After a little more research I agree that the Watt/Puppy is probably way to big for my 11x12 room. I hear the Wilson Duette is good, but those aesthetics aren't jiving with me.

Still like the 805D3. Love the 803D3 that I heard, but no way that's work in this tiny room.

Really like the idea of having a 3-way (Kef Ref 1) - more bass. Concerned however that my room might be too small still? Did some measuring - the back of the cabinet would be about 4-6" from the wall. Looks like that will require the long tube over the short tube...

If you have the budget, TuneTots would be my choice.  They are designed to work well close to a wall.  I listened to them in a small space driven by Naim gear at a retailer in Manhattan.  

You’re basically parking the speakers against the wall, so I’d choose speakers designed to be placed that way.  I’d do something like the Von Schweikert Vortex VR33 that is not too big of a floorstander and will sound great placed near the wall, and they’re easy to drive so tubes and low-powered SS amps are fine.  Best of luck. 

The other good thing about the Wilson Audio Duette 2's is that they can be played right up against a wall.  Yes, my wife did not like the look of them either but they were in the great room.  You don't have to get them with the stands.  They can come as bookshelf also.  

I saw this recent article by the guy I am going to get to create my DRC Convolution file. I mentioned it previously on this thread. 

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/manufacture/0420/Understanding_Digital_Room_Correction_For_Audiophiles.htm

Getting a big speaker into a small room.

@eisenb11 I was told by dealers that carry KEF that the REF 1 would work in my similar sized room. However, they did say that the REF 1's sound best  with some space from the back wall.

I bet the new Vivid monitor speaker that is due out soon would work even better than the KEF 1 in the small room because Vivid can be placed close to the back wall. This I heard from the Vivid mgmt directly.

I should have also mentioned the TAD ME1 as another amazing monitor. The price bothers me though. It is back to $15K 1 year after TAD dropped the price to $10K for 3 months. Then putting it back to $15K to appeal to the audiophile crowd.

My room is slightly larger than yours at 10' x 14'.

When I was demoing speakers I listened to

Vandersteens 2ce Signatures
Focal Sopra's
Spendor A1's
B&W 805 D3's
Wilson Tune Tot's

I ended up with the Tune Tots. I felt that the Tune Tots had the superior highs. Low end was not a consideration since the plan was to pair anything I bought with subs. 

OMG.
So my new speakers just came in. Until now, I was running a Bose Lifestyle Acoustimass 5 system that I bought in the mid 90s for $2k. I know we like to knock Bose, but it was a decent for a little system with huge WAF.

I was originally leaning towards the Kef Reference 1 for the 3-way action, but in the end I decided it was a little too physically big for the space. Ended up going with the B&W 805D3 in piano black with the matching stands - love the way it looks too.
Holy moly, what an upgrade. Bigger sound stage. Highs. And Lows. And  Mids! Dang. I feel like I'm sitting in the middle of a private concert.

... and what's funny is that I'm powering it with a 100 wpc Harmon Kardon amp that I had sitting in a closet. Also I didn't realize I had only ordered one cable (thought I got 2 for that price) so one speaker is bi-wired with some good cable and the other speaker is bridged and using some el-cheapo thin Monster speaker wire that I found in a box in the garage (at least I didn't use the Bose cables, ha ha). The other cable should come this week sometime.

Curious, how big the difference will be when I eventually replace the Harmon with some blue watt meters. What are your thoughts on that... 200W... or 300W? Would 300W be a total waste because the speakers are rated for 50W-120W @ 8 Ohm per the specs.

Congrats on the new speaks, and glad you’re enjoying them!  Don’t know your personal tastes and what specifically you’d like to improve upon, but if it’s me I’d take a hard look at a used Hegel H300 that has plenty of juice and will likely blow away your HK in every way.  And it has a decent onboard DAC you may be able to make use of as well.  Also, if you can pull the 805s a foot or so further out from the wall, even if it’s just temporary for more critical listening, I think they’ll reward you with even better imaging/soundstage.  Hope this helps, and best of luck.