@larryi
https://www.manley.com › legacy
'RETRO' SE/PP 300B — Manley Laboratories, Inc.
Seems they've engineered a PSET-PP circuit.
Charles
SET Shootout China VS The USA
2A3 SET from china arrives any day now.
The tech who loaned me his UX250 (aka 50 Tube) amp, with a 12AU7 in front + a 6BH7 (??) , has incredible pure Cobalt out trans. ($1k+ each back in 2000, now no longer in production). . he will help me set up the 2A3.
Has a AX+AU my 2 fav front tubes anda quad of 2A3's.
My speakers are pure neutrality, no coloration, no distortion,.
So whatever amp/ source you plug in, will register the nuances inherent in the circuit.
Will be very interesting.
USA has pure cobalt out trans which gives the edge in power, but the china 2A3 has a 2 tubes per channel.
Gonna be interesting and will post a YT upload with comments,
AFTER TESTING IS COMPLETEED.
Hand on to your horses at the OK Corral.
Grab a beer at the saloon,
sundown shootout at the edge of town.
265 responses Add your response
Nonoise, I agree. Of all the possible alternatives, the one chosen by Masi made the least sense. If there was not enough time for ALL the backmarkers to come around the leaders before the restart, he could have left them all in place, including the four between Verstappen and Hamilton. That would have made for an interesting race because Verstappen would be able to clear them relatively quickly, which would have given him a chance to pass, but not given him such an easy path to a victory that was unearned. I still think red flag and either a standing restart or a safety car restart with more than one racing lap remaining would have made the most sense. |
Toto was wrong for asking Masi not to send out a safety car when Latifi crashed but Christian was screaming at Masi to let the lapped cars pass the safety car. The very same cars that Lewis had to pass to get that 12 second lead. Past races always finished in the order they were in prior to a crash with the lead driver put at a disadvantage from allowing all the trailing cars to close any gaps. If the race ended on a safety car, so be it. Done all the time, until now. Look at Max winning that race in the pouring rain with only 2 laps completed and getting points for it. That was a joke. Masi changed his decision after being screamed at by Red Bull to let the lapped cars pass out of the way letting Max drag race Lewis on much fresher tires without the 12 second lead Lewis had before the crash. Max's teammate, Perez, apologized to Hamilton. Russell said it was unacceptable. Riccardo said it was a f*cked up thing to do. Other drivers said it was done for TV to make it more exciting and likening it to NASCAR (which is the ultimate insult). From now on, no one can talk directly to the Race Control but to an intermediary instead, who will relay the gist of the complaint to Masi, who's been doing some odd things all season. Not the way to run a race. All the best,
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What he said...
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sns, I can understand race control wanting the race and the season championship to be decided by actual racing, hence the bending of the rules and conventional practice. What they should have done, to be fair to all the drivers, and to conclude the race with a lot of green flag racing to the end, is red flag the race and let everyone pit and get fresh tires. Hamilton would have been in the lead, as he should be, and Verstappen, if he stayed close enough, would have DRS after two laps would have been able to attempt a pass. I think Masi botched the call by not doing this. |
If this is Yaqin MS-2A3, makes no claim of being SET. states its PP, I see claims of 10-14wpc.
Whatever Yaqin model it is, likely combo of decent parts and others needing upgrading. That's been my experience with chifi relatively lower price equipment. Hopefully, they have decent design, in looking at Chinese 845 amps a few years ago, some were grenades just waiting to explode. |
@mozartfan Man, you're all over the place, too many bold pronouncements about this or that being best. I love SET, and have two actual SET amps and one pp. Own or have owned two 845, one 300B, one 2a3 for SET. For pp, EL34, 6550, KT88, KT120, 6CA7. To say any of these tubes or amp topology is best simply untrue. I've enjoyed both pp and SET and all these tubes at one time or another.
I'm Verstappen and Red Bull fan, not into Hamilton or MB, but I'd have to say Hamilton and MB got ripped. Hamilton increasing his lead with worn out hard compound tires, he was cream of crop that day. What officials did was NASCAR shenanigans, fake competition. |
Gee, I wonder why🙄
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Because the DIY FR Committee has banned such a design. After I showed THE FR Club my design was a stunning success, ( I told them I really believe I have the best midrange sound in the world..,, they promptly booted me off the DIY forum,,no big deal, I did not learn even 1 thing over there about FR systems)) , Ever heard of Thinking OUTSIDE the box. Creativity is something that can make NEW things happen. I never ever follow the crowd in things audio. In 10 yrs you will see my idea take off. Just BECAUSE no one has tried a dual FR system, why equate this with *not doable*. I follow my own ideas. Like Frankie sings, **and I did IT my wayyyyy** |
Hearing something live has never stopped you from critiquing other speakers such as Vandersteen, Wilson, Dali, Zu, Tekton
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dont need to hear Teks, Zu’s. I can look at the design, cone materials. Not for me, There are resonances and spikes in both designs, I can easily spot it. The YT vids only confirm what I suspect. My DL’s are pure neutral like the Seas Excel. Zu’s have no xovers, a good tghing, but the cones are some sort of paper composite, I avoid anything paper. has to be wood fibers, or banana/Kanuf leaf fibers in my FR cones. |
seems rather bright. If you don’t mind answering, what’s on your back wall?
Tracy Chapman - New Beginning, is a spectacular recorded & well written album btw
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Was thinking this same thing last night late. Some sort of wall treatment would not hurt. back wall awkward has a closet door and door and 2 book cases along side wall rear.
How about this
I get attic insultaion, and ghang 2 strips from ceiling to fllor, just in front of 2 bookcases,
this will prevent some waves from bouncing along back corners and such.
Will do this treatment today,, I think it will dampen some echos and such.
Thanks for the tip. And yes will order Tracy Chapman today.
Thanks |
@csmgolf Nice +100 my man. I am a NCAA Hockey Bot. |
Hearing something live has never stopped you from critiquing other speakers such as Vandersteen, Wilson, Dali, Zu, Tekton, etal. In fact, you have made that pronouncement over and over and over. The same thing is good for you too. Besides, you continuously remind everyone that your videos capture the sound in your room. It is fair game. And as many have said, your system does not come close to sounding good in your videos.
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Mozart fan what kind of a crap system is that. LOL
hahaha
well I imagine if the speakers had the name like
Wilson
Dali
Sonus Faber
attacjed to the front ,, maybe you and others would buy it
hey thats what i am going to do, start up my own speaker retail shop.
Lets see what shall I call it
oh I know
The Frankenstein's.
Look if Tekton's are selling their loaded cabinets,, like hot cakes in a alaskan mining town...I think mine are better,,.
A bunch of tweeters will not match dual FR;'s in these sma e band width.
Trsut me my Frankenstein's are ONLY limited by the amp connected.
Whatever sound is in the amp will be channled through the speakers.
UNlike xover /low sens speakers which block/distort/pollute the nunances of a Jadis KT170's glorious sound.
My dual FR have NO XOVER, just pure muisc from the source + amplifier.
I live minutes from the airport, stop by one day.
Then make a critique, or insulting comment.
Not til you actually heard them live. |
Hey Larry, I'll run by, your ideas over with my tech, see whats going on. OK Acresverde mentioned a FR system w/o woofer may not appeal to other audiophiles whose music requires a deeper bass response. WEll with a PP type SET, maybe this will azllow adding a woofer in the system. But not sure if the added ohm will be too much on the 2A3's. I was running dual 8 ohms FR + 8 ohm tweeter,,and 1 of the UX250's went dark, and is new stock. Have to get with my tech who built the amp, perhaps its not the ohm over load, maybe something other. But this is what I have to consider here. can a 2A3 tube handle dual FR + dual tweeters..is this asking too much. Although the center trans on the UX250 was not running hot with 3 8 ohm drivers,, maybe the tube was being over loaded. So its possible my dual FR speaker may not work with a SET,,or perhaps this 2 tubes per channel, PP design allows for more ohm load. hard to say at this point. My tech even mentioned **yeah go ahead and put a single W18 mid along with the system..**,, Saying it can handle the ohm load. All this has to be worked out. Good thing in this testing is that if a stock tube goes dark, no big loss. I will run the stock tubes for 6 months witha dual FR, dual tweter, thats 8 phms x4,, and see how the tubes hold up, /heat on center trans. BEFORE I order Psvane ACME 2A3's which I would not wish to risk early burn out at 600/pair. If there is trouble, we can try a single FR/tweeter and use this amp as for light chamber. More complex big orchestra like Schnittke symphonies, we can run the Defy which can easily handle a bunch of drivers. Back to the idea that 2 tubes per channel offers a better sound vs the Defy's 6. With 6 tubes, you have a beefier trans , opening up the path for dual FR + dual tweeters and a woofer for techno , heavy metal, grunge and any other slam driver music you care to hear. So sems there is a place for PP power. All these things have to be tested and worked out. Stay tuned..... Side note the Defy has 2 ohms on top of trans, but somewhere I read , the amp needs to be adjusted to bring it to 2 ohms. My tech does not want to make any mods in this circuit. Again, what may happen with dual FR + dual tweeters is over load not so much on the center trans, but may affect/shorten the life of the 12 KT88's, which is not a good thing, 12 tubes runs me $600. Stay tuned..... |
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I own a parallel single-ended 2a3 amp; the two tubes are not in antiphase (pushpull) configuration. Parallel single-ended puts out more power, and because parallel operation reduces output impedance, the turn ratio of the output transformer can be reduced. But, it is quite hard to get good balance in output from the tubes, and one ends up doing most of the work after a while. I had that happen with my amp. There is no practical way for an amp to be switchable between single-ended and pushpull operation, the circuits are fundamentally different and the output transformers must be different in design to optimize performance. it is so unclear as to what is being compared here except that it is two different amps.
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unscrew the bottom let’s see what’s inside , I have had upgrades to tube gear many times ,most use cheap parts unless spending well over $5 k ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ My tech here, and many other techs as well, believe a cap is a cap is a cap, I’ve proven this to be true in certain uses, and not true at all in other, Take my Jadis Defy 7, each KT88 has a .47 cap attached.. I took out Jadis’s small yellow stock .47 cap and instaalled Mundorf .47 SESGO, bass response registered in a very nice nuance gain. The bass is punchy and solid. Mids also made a small gain. Takman Rey resistors made a minisclue up gain. All the mods/upgardes I’ve made, all togther made for a nice upgrade,~~~ . Upgrade to my xovers in my speakers was a total waste of money. FR speakers offer a superior soundstage. So again , upgrades, mods have to be carefully considered. My once beloved Seas Thor speakers (same drivers as Joseph Audio’s $12000 speakers) are now dis-manteled... , midwoofers sold, tweeters gave away, xovers up for sale, cabinets went out today for the trash. Adios xover style speakers forever,,, YOU, too should make the switch. |
I have paneling come out basement of lake house if you look for more cabinet material.
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Thanks for the kind offer,, I'm sure its veery nice old grained wood.
But this Tennessee cedar is my fav.
Cuts are very rough, 1 cab is 1 inch higher than than the other,, 1 has sides that are IN the front panel/rear panels, and the other sides are OUTside front/rear panels. = each cabinet is different measurmemnets, but close to 50 liters.
I'm no cabinet builder,, just a visonary for speaker designs.
No one in the world, AFAIK has a dual Fr design system + tweeter,,just ordered another tweeter today, will run dual tweeters.
ight,,in fact will build a mini Cedar cabinet to house both tweeters.
The Davidlouis seller says no one in china has dual FR in a system.
The DIY Association told me it will not work, it will sound just aweful. I don't listen.
I really think my speaker offers some of the best midrange sound.
You can't do this with AER, Voxativ, nor Cube, all have too high a sensitivity and many other reasons,'can't do this with any speaker brands.
Only davidlouis VX8 + VX6 can you combine ia dual system.
Nice day |
All of the (your) Youtube videos you have linked here sound awful to me, and...
this is coming from someone who has used single wide range drivers (on a meager budget) for almost 20 years now.
If you "really" want the better/type of sound that this approach "can" offer you first need to wake up and smell the coffee.
DeKay |
Hi, well,, I must say,,, actually I need a cold bucket dump,,haha. OK, got ya WEll, in my limited audio world, thats bass in the Sophie Milman tracks.
Tell ya what, Stevie Wonder has a track on Inner Visions,, where the moog makes the woofers move 2-3 inches of solid slam sub- bass...maybe I will upload a quickie after this post,...I did upload a Elliott Carter score for FOUR!!! Timpini,, but this was with the Seas Thor demo. Did not come off accurate,, the Sony cam had the timpini all distorted. I’ll try again with the dual FR. well, OK, so in my book, 40hz, is rock bottom. I am not least bit interested below 40hz. So I give up the **real** bass(as you say..)) but I gain super midrange, why? NO xovers,,WINNER Higher sensitivity = Winner again Double win. PLUS its point source vs a tower like Sonus Faber, Dali, Rockport, Wilson, 3-6 drivers.. FR has decent bass/mids, nice highs all comming froma SINGLE driver. Niceee sweetttt. It beats me why FR has not been given their day in the sunshine. I see Fr as the ultimate musical exp for light jazz, blues, classical. The genres you mention, perhaps not such as 1st choice. This is how I hear things. Rolled off? In a 10x15 room, 60 SPL, near field, all sounds pretty good to my ears. vs xover designs which I have issues with,, as you guys know. I am xover/low sens speakers most fierce critic So i expect the same criticisms to come from yoyr camp against FR types. I get that.
EDIT,,, was off to upload the intro to Stevie Wonders track off InnerVisions,, and realized that 1 UX250 tube went dark. Trust me if a record has bass , these dual FR’s will deliver the goods. 8 + 6 inch cones, rockin N rollin with bass, as long as its in the actual record. + if I really want bass I’ll hook up the Defy with 12 Mundorf SESGO .47 caps, = will shred to confetti the wood cones in both FR speakers. @ 12 oclock on the vol pot. If we pushed the Defy hard, it would destroy Wilson’s biggest 8 speaker tower. The towers would start to walk,, you ’d have to replace all woofers.
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Why, oh why am I doing this... MF, I just watched your linked latest video where you cue up the oft paraded before the peanut gallery Sophie Milman disc. After 5 seconds of play, you immediately declare that the bass is all there. What bass? This is a typical jazz combo with single female vocalist...probably the LEAST challenging genre (for top to bottom freq. resp.) of anything out there. It would be much more revealing if you hauled something out your mythical classical music vault and slapped that into the transport if you want to demonstrate to the handful of us following this train wreck of a thread the full range capabilities of the DL drivers. And BTW, I think you confuse percussion with bass. Every time you hear a tom or any kind of drum, no matter what the frequency, you conflate it with bass. There was no real "bass" at the beginning of that Milman cut...maybe some upper mid bass at best. That whole presentation had a decidedly midrange centric quality to it and until you see fit to play something with full range content, you'll never really know what the DL shortcomings are. SET and FR drivers at their current state of the art, will never be the choice for audiophiles who favor low bass content music like pipe organ, EDM, techno, synth, etc. because they cannot pass muster. Yeah, I know, you're a CM man (though we have no evidence of this) so maybe you're fine with rolled off extremities but your tastes, sir, inhabit the minority.
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Sure transformers are important but just as important are quality chokes, and internal parts like quality capacitors,resistors, wiring,connectors even tube sockets Teflon copper are the best , and many other things. unscrew the bottom let’s see what’s inside , I have had upgrades to tube gear many times ,most use cheap parts unless spending well over $5 k I don’t see any mention of the cost ? |
@nonoise Not a Hamilton fan and I like seeing Toto lose. It's done and the new Senna, Prost era has begun. Max and Lewis will give us a great season next year, I hope. Also hoping that the boys in Maranello can get their stuff together. Cheers. |
Mozart FYI there is such a thing as a parallel SET amp using two, or more, tubes per channel perhaps that's what your amp is?
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Yes my tech is trying to explain what to expect.
He mentions that my Jadis DPL linestage is SET, and the pre section of the Defy is SET, then out [ut stage on the Defy is PP.
so then, there is no such thing as pure SET circuit, neither pure PP circuit.
That a PP does have linearity midrange and a SET also can emply dual tubes to become a PP circuit... huh??
well we learn something new every day in this hobby.
Tech was saying the other day, I might not like the 2A3 as its only 3.5 watts.
Now if we see this amp is a PP circuit this bumps up the wattage to 10 watts per tube on a self bias AB1 circuit.
Auto bias says 15 watts, self bias 10 watts..??why??
Got to go over with tech on that one.
Or maybe not,,,,,we are going into rocket science now,,
haha
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jerryg123’s avatar jerryg123742 posts 12-14-2021 7:05pm So Mozartfan where have you been the KT170 has been out for a while and the Audio Hungary Qualiton X200 has been shipping with them for a year
~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Hey Jerry did you note Qualiton’s 833 tube SET and their new 813 SET amps?? wowo, off the charts unreal. wow https://www.atelier13-usa.com/tube-amps-by-power-tube
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My tech is havinga hard time figuring out the yaquin ’s design, is ita SET of PP... , he’s saying stuff I dont understand,,and honestly i don’t think he understands what Yaquin is up to with this circuit. He says **now you have 2 PP amps*** I don’t believe him, The 2A3 tube is NOT a KT tube. I bought the amp for 1) not over 60 lbs, my back lift limit 2) in my budget 3) has my 2 fav pre tubes, AX and AU. we will see. EDIT>>> Just cked the tube data, If indeed this is a PP type circuit,, then I win.. Its likea WIN/WIN amp . Has best of both circuits, Not a pure SET , low wattage, neither big power KT PP circuit. wow, my lucky day AB1PP says, Self Bias , wopping 10 watts per tube x 2 = 20 watts per cahnnel..My tech was say ing before he found out it is PP, last week, *ohh thats a very low watt tube at 3.5 watts, you may find it lacking dynamic punch..*
haha My lucky day.
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@jerryg123 , I miss him too. Right now I'm still fuming over the treatment Lewis Hamilton ( a big Senna fan himself) got at the final F1 race. That was a hollow and illegitimate victory for Verstappen and Masi has some explaining to do. All the best, |
So Mozartfan where have you been the KT170 has been out for a while and the Audio Hungary Qualiton X200 has been shipping with them for a year.
Quite the lovely tube in mu X200.
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WOW , just found out surfing Jadis;' site,., I had no idea other manufacturers were employing this incredible looking tube.
Lucky you.
But again, the tube looks to be something like a bigger KT150, which looks to be a larger KT120, and so on, so forth.
vs a SET tube, each has quite different characteristics in build and performnace.
IMHO there's less nunaces betwix each KT's vs SET tubes voicing.
What I am saying if the speaker running a EL34 amp, and then we place the KT170 on the speaker,,, does the speaker pick up the nuances of each tube??
This is my point.
The speaker has to be sensitive enough to voice the character dif of each KT type,,,in soundstage nuances.
Xover style speakers sound the same no matter which KT tube is in the power slot.
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@nonoise Senna was the best. I even remember where I was when I heard about his death in 1994 at San Marino. I was shocked he was larger than life at the time. I am a Fangio Bot. |
All the best,
Nonoise
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Perfect imagery for how a PP amp channels the music,, PUSH -pull-push-pull, fast on starightaways, slowER on the turns
vs
a SET's straight musical pathway,,, easy going, pure linearity.
As someone imagined the sound field, like angels singing.
SETs offera more pure sound field/
PP accents the musical energy = dynamics.
But the dynamics can **tend to be** noisey and pollute the quite background.
SET sound reminds me of the dark outer space in a desert night sky.
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Is this you in the video? How does one reach that turntable? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~haha Yes the Philips , can’t recall the model # , bought it from my tech’s stash,, have not used it as yet, Bought a whole bunch of INCREDIBLE super rare classical sym/chamber LPs. But have to get with tech , show me how to use the player,, Honestly it was back in the 70’s since last useage of a DUAL turn table.. The player was in fact higher up,, I just lowered it. So I was thinking,,, pondering PP vs SET + what speakers,, OK got it. Here is how i see/hear thihgs. As we know most Audiogon members have ss and PP amplifaction, Very few SET. owners here
What I want to emphasize is a SET amp, absoluet must have a FR speaker. a SET amp will not work with a xover /low sens style speaker. So if anyone is interested going/trying SET amplifaction, ,,I strongly suggest, figure the FR speaker FIRST, but the speaker 1st, THEN and ONLY then buy the SET. Do not put the horse before the cart. man I am hoping for the best with the 2A3 amp, ,,but have no idea how it will perform. Glad you agree with my tech, that a pair of KT’s in each channel is best design for a PP. WOW consider Jadis’ JA200 monos, like 12 tubes per channel!! What would be funnyk, if the Electro harmonix KT88 s perform up to some of the reviews I’ve been reading about that manufacturer.
The Gold Lion KT88’s I found a bit dull in mids. I bought the Svetlana as thtas what jadis initially had in the amp, I sold the NOS off as new for like $350 all 12 tubes. Lets see if this PP amp has some something to offer with new tubes,,late July on that testing. Have lots of new Mundorf high end caps/F&T’s and Takman Rey resistors. maybe new tubes wll unlock some magic hidden in this amp. that would be unreal. If there is sparkles in the highs and gorgeous lows,, well then maybe i will have to reconsider my opinions on SET’s vs PP. All these things need testing.
~~~~~~~~~~The only thing holding my testing experiements right now is the ^^^cash^^^ factor. |
@nonoise have to admit , i am more of a barn find…but definitely a 1961. Siblings say i was hatched. Mozart - yes of course. In particular my main amplifiers are SET = single ended transistor in a cyclotron configuration with no emitter resistors. And the tube ones 2. Enjoy your quest, it is a worthy one… i am a Robot carving a line like Senna, in my mind |
