@larryi
There are no absolutes. I don’t understand what appears to be a compulsion to declare one thing the best
Agree 100%
We like what we like, it's absolutely personal. Proclamations just don't apply to audio and music listening experiences in my opinion.
Charles
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I believe that Shuguang and Psvane are two seperate entities with their own seperate manufacturing facilities. Psvane initially derived from Shuguang but is today independent .
Charles
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@mozartfan
Discovery and exploration is fun.😊
Another 8 series tube is the 805. An accessible and affordable example is the Line Magnetic 805ia/ 508ia which 48 watts of pure class A SET. Those who have heard or owned it say it’s wonderful sounding. Some SET afficianos make the point that the lower power SET amplifiers are more intimate, nuanced, tactile and pure in their presentation.
Obviously opinions and taste vary as with anything and it simply becomes a matter of what one is seeking. The higher power SET amplifiers certainly allow for greater speaker choice flexibility. Always some degree of tradeoffs, so just depends on the objectives of a given listener.
Charles
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@pesky_wabbit
I don't doubt what you say in regard to the final sound quality. I just wanted to clear the air concerning the tube's innate 5 component/elements construction.
Charles
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@jond
But you are doing it again you're not listening to tubes you're listening to tube amps. So whatever tube it is you do listen to next make sure it's in a good amp.
100% correct👍
Charles
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@mozartfan
SET on a xover type speaker does not work, I tried it, its a complete failure
Perhaps in your one instance, the complete opposite experience for me. My 3 way 5 driver speakers were built from the ground up to be very compatible with SET amplifiers. Same brand (Coincident) built by the same person (Israel Blume). Granted the crossover is a minimalist 1st order design (One tweeter capacitor). I'm referring to the Coincident Total Eclipse II, 94 db sensitivity and a 14 ohm impedance load.
It pairs exceedingly well with the Frankenstein MK II 300b SET mono blocks. 8 watts of pure music listening joy. It replaced my very good 100 watt mono blocks (6550 or KT 88). So once again it most definitely depends on what specific amplifier (All 300bs aren't created equally) and what specific multi driver speaker (They aren't all the same). This is my sublime experience the past 12 years.
Charles
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@larryi
I know that there is a strong desire to come to conclusions about various aspects of design or parts choice, but, it really is not that simple to do. The more I hear, the LESS I am able to draw definitive conclusions in these areas, although I do see rough tendencies.
I can appreciate @mozartfan’s enthusiasm with his recent discoveries, but do agree with you concerning broad sweeping conclusions. I will say that DHT tubes just seem to produce a very impressive natural sound that I find exceedingly special.
I will be the first to admit however variables such as builder/designer talent, attention to detail and quality parts selection are crucial and vital factors. We all have our preferences. DHTs used and executed properly simply get it done for me.
BTW the 307 tube is not a DHT but is in a fact a pentode tube.
Charles
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@mozartfan
I'd say more specifically give credit to the Japanese audiophile/music lover community for reviving the interest and admiration for SET/low power tube amplifiers driving horns-high efficiency speakers. They bought a ton of discarded and ignored old Western Electric old movie theater audio equipment.
Once transistor power became common in the 1960s (More power than tubes for far less money). Tube components were viewed as archaic and useless. It was Jean Hiraga who brought the low power SET/High efficiency speakers movement from Japan to Western society in the 1970s.
The rest as they say is history. Dennis Had (Founder of Cary Audio) was an early American SET manufacturer. Don Garber (Fi Audio) was another early American convert who built SET amplifiers.
Charles
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@alexberger
But he preferred the results he got with SE by a big margin. He used classic schematics. He runs his amplifiers without feedback and with feedback. The question is why you and my friend got so different results? What is the difference of your schematics to classical EL84 PP schematics?
Because when all is said and done it boils down to the desires, taste and preferences of an individual listener. Someone will prefer the push-pull and another will prefer the SE. Neither is hardly wrong . No one has "golden ears" and thus the final arbiter on what sounds best. This is rightly so, up to each listener to decide. No absolute proclamations can exist in an endeavor so thoroughly and innately subjective and personal. That’s what makes this all fun and an adventure.
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I know a lot of audiophiles look askance at measurements but the simple fact is that if you have the right measurements you can tell how an amp will sound if you also have an understanding of how we perceive sound.
I believe many experience audiophiles/music lovers have a healthy appreciation for measurements. They just have come to learn that you have to listen to an audio product to really know if it's for you. People realize there is no better way to select these products.
Charles
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IMO its a tell of the sorry state of affairs in high end audio that there are SETs that actually do sound better than their PP brethren- it really shouldn’t be that way!
@atmasphere
For a number of listeners this is their conclusion. You give rationale explanation as to how push pull topology could easily equal (Or surpass) the sonic presentation of a good SET amplifier. Problem is very few manufacturers commercially are following the recipe you propose.
Most happy SET owners migrated from the world of transistor and push pull tube amplifiers. Very rarely is SET the first amplifier choice for newbies. Rather it’s a choice discovered after ownership and exposure to non SET amplifiers. So most of these converts are seasoned listeners and owners of High End audio components.
Upon introduction to a good DHT SET some listeners find a purity, aliveness, transparency and most importantly a genuine deep emotional connection with their music listening experience. These traits were found lacking to some degree with their previous non SET amplifiers. Some do return at some point to other amplifier types, but many do not. So perhaps other manufacturers should heed your guide lines for improving their push pull amplifiers.
Charles
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Correction
IDHT and pentode tubes are not synonymous. Pentode =5 element construction. IDHT is a triode =3 element construction.
Charles
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@mozartfan
What you’re referring to as "SET tubes" are technically DHT(Directly heated triode) true 3 element tubes (45, 2A3, 300b, PX 25,211,845, 805,50 and so on). Your reference to "KT type tubes" are IDHT (Indirectly heated ) with most of these tubes being pentode, 5 element constructed tubes. You are discovering the world of DHT tubes. Welcome😊, there’s a ton of information available via search that can go into as much detail as you care to explore and learn.
Charles
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@jond
Lovely! Thanks for sharing. No doubt the Deja Vu proprietors know their customers tastes/desires very well. I bet this amplifier sounds fantastic!
Charles
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@jond
You had that el 34 for quite a while so I know how much listening enjoyment it must've brought you. Your current 2A3 push pull amplifier has to be quite special to have drawn you away.😊
Charles
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if I follow the crowd,, what will I learn
@mozartfan
Follow the crowd? I am the one encouraging you to continue your current discoveries in regard to tubes and particularly DHT tubes. Again you have a tendency (In my opinion) to make judgements hastily. But in the end you have to be you. BTW, DHT push pull amplifiers are nothing new, have been around for some time. I do understand that this genre is new to you. Best of luck to you.
Charles
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As you know these discussiions around tubes can get slippery. Not justa few weeks ago,,**SET, yeah #1..**
Now, cant say that. I actually by mistake or by lucky chance,,hit on this 2A3 PP circuit. Will the mesh elimiante some of the ever so slight harshness/in some mids fq’s??? Late summer we will know..
In my opinion I just think that you rush to conclusions prematurely. You are doing some interesting things and expanding your experience with different types of tubes and amplifiers.
Just take time to absorb new discoveries and let things sink in, no need to declare absolutes at this stage (Or perhaps any subsequent stage). You note that discussions about tubes can get slippery. A lot of truth there.
You can have two 2A3 amplifiers, however they differ in power supply quality, output transformers, type of coupling capacitors and internal wiring. Despite both utilizing the same 2A3 tubes the two amplifiers can/will sound quite different. You have to account for the numerous variables involved. Continue to explore as you’re definitely learning as you go.
Charles
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@ghasley
😊
Your Merason DAC is a flies under the radar intriguing component.
Charles
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it’s their simplicity that makes them so special.
@mikem, Agree 100%
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@ghasley
I visited your audio system page. Very nice! I bet it sounds marvelous.
Charles
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My tech urges me to avoid the 300B in any part of a design, (845 w 300B as driver). He has no issues with the 2A3.
Then again there are fans of the 300B that love their pure linear SET soundstage. My tech mentioned the 300B original intent for the tube was telecom usage. Meaning fq cut off in both ends of the band width spectrum. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
@mozartfan
I have no doubt that you have a very competent and experienced tech who has earned your trust and admiration. As you know opinions abound in the audio world. Everyone likes something and dislikes something else. 300b is no exception to this.
There are so many different 300b amplifier choices from multiple builders at prices ranging from 500.00 to 100,000.00. There are easily a dozen different 300b tube choices to place in an amplifier. I would very kindly encourage you find an opportunity to hear a good quality 300b amplifier and decide for yourself.
We all hear differently and certainly possess varying preferences and desires. My 300b SET mono blocks provide sublime sound quality. Sometimes generalizations can be too broad brushed. In my opinion you can't go wrong with either the 2A3 or 300b (Or 845, 211, 45 etc.). Builder /designer talent and successful execution are the major determinants of component sound quality.
Charles
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I've yet to hear Full Music Mesh plates (my tech mentioned its nota true mesh, more like perforated metal..), still from what I've read the Mesh offer nice resolutions. The Jadis Defy7 will be great in more comples symphonic orch,,but for all other music, this 2A3 will beat out the Defy.
@mozartfan
Your tech is correct, perforated metal plate rather than a true mesh design. EML makes a genuine mesh tube, they are costly. You could still really appreciate the sound of the Full Music perforated plate tube once acquired. I can understand why you are attracted to DHT tubes (101D in my preamplifier and 300b amplifiers). Pure musical beauty if implementation is done well. I feel that you're on a good path.
Charles
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Best bang under $1500
Got lucky on this gamble
@mozartfan
Proclamations are difficult to back up. I will say however that DHT tubes such as the 2A3 are terrific sounding when well implemented in an amplifier, be it SET or push pull topology. Congratulations!
Charles
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@larryi
The listening experience was quite some years ago at CES. At that time I actually felt the push-pull was the better sounding choice. I just don't believe you can serve 2 masters equally due to inevitable compromise design and implementation decisions to do both. Could be SET was more affected by the dual purpose/circuit design.
I'm a SET amplifier guy but without any question push pull (Particularly with DHT tubes) can sound superb. I heard a Jadis amplifier using the very common el 34 and it was exceedingly good sounding. Talent level of the builder is such a huge factor.
Charles
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@larryi
You make salient points. The amphibious vehicle is a good analogy. However as I noted above, that amplifier was a good sounding unit. So I must give Manley Labs credit for this unique achievement.
Charles
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@jond
I heard that amplifier years ago at CES. It’s a good sounding amplifier. I don’t believe that it extracts the best that a SET can provide because fthe output transformers are not exclusively committed to the SET circuit. There’s some inevitable compromise in order to accommodate the push-pull circuit needs. Still a worthy effort.
Charles
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@larryi
https://www.manley.com › legacy
'RETRO' SE/PP 300B — Manley Laboratories, Inc.
Seems they've engineered a PSET-PP circuit.
Charles
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