Serious Question About Silver vs Copper Conductivity for Power
Yes, I realize that this topic is going to bring out the sharks, but if I get at least one serious response, it will all be worth it.
I understand that silver conducts 7% faster than copper. I also understand that using a dielectric insulation like Teflon is best at keeping the wire from overheating, stopping signals entering and stopping signals from leaving the conductor. I understand that a certain amount of math is involved in selected gauge of wire depending largely on how much power the component is going to take, and how much the amperage is (20 or 15).
My question is regarding certain features applied to either silver or copper conductors that may or may not have an advantage over one or the other.
I have the Kimber Kable P14 Palladian. This uses 14awg copper conductors insulated in Teflon. Then it adds a massive filter that attempts to mitigate the standing wave ratio to as close to 1:1 as possible. I had Kimber’s Ascent power cable prior. It’s identical to the Palladian, except the filter. I have heard the difference between using those two cables. Apparently, mitigating the standing wave ratio lowers the noise floor significantly. However, any filter that chokes the signal and will slow the electrical current.
As I understand it, the amplifier works by opening the rectifier to allow the capacitors to fill with energy that the system will draw from. Being able to keep the rectifier open and fill the capacitors as fast as possible, reducing lag time, has the effect of creating more realistic and detailed sound.
With that said, changing to a power cable that uses pure silver insulated in Teflon, will ensure that power is delivered potentially faster. Although, the silver power cable will NOT have a filter. Therefore the standing wave ratio will not be mitigated and the electrical signal will not be choked either.
So, would the amplifier benefit from faster electrical current or slower, but cleaner electric current? Since this signal isn’t directly applied to sound, the concepts of “colder” or “warmer” sound should not apply.
Can someone help me out without poking fun at the question? Additionally, I am not interested in having a cable-theory debate. If you don’t believe cables make any difference, I will not debate or have discourse on that topic.
I must be very important to you all for you to spend so much of your energy attacking me. Knowing you have absolutely no control over me, must be infuriating.
hey buddy lighten up... i am not attacking you, just making a little joke, spread a little laughter on the forum
to be honest, i don’t know you, truly don’t care enough about this topic nor you, to want to ’attack’ anything... though i would say as i read through this thread your demeanor reeks of immaturity
this is a hobby we are invested in to have fun, right?
I must be very important to you all for you to spend so much of your energy attacking me. Knowing you have absolutely no control over me, must be infuriating.
I find it amusing that you'll spend time rummaging through cable company websites to find information you can use in your attacks or sift through my posts and pick word-choice to focus on, but cannot go online to find links to engineering websites or science websites to back up anything you've said. Gee, I wonder why you won't do that. 🤔
I have provided links to science and engineering websites to back my points. It was interesting that none of you went to THOSE sites to find information to use against me. Instead, you state, "no, you're wrong." Well...if I am wrong, then the science in those articles are wrong, but that isn't who you've levied your ire at is it? I wonder what it is you're afraid of? 🤔
With that said, it is clear that you and others are simple cable deniers who feel threatened by anyone who gives testimony of better performance. I have always wondered why other people buying cables and enjoying the results bothers folks like you. No one has done anything against you, yet you act offended. That you feel compelled to poke fun instead of ignoring it, really speaks to your character.
Thankfully, as I have previously stated, nothing you say will change my sound system or the appreciation of my sound system. In fact, one might wonder what, if anything, you've achieved with all your posts here. It would seem I have robbed you of your time and energy.
Due to your inability to find resources to back your claims, your constant belittlement, attacking Lavricables through me, and adversarial approach to communication, any last remnants of credibility and respect *I* may have had for you, is forever gone.
*golf clap*
Congratulations. Now I have to make a correction. You did actually achieve something with your effort. You've earned my disrespect. As such, I will no longer speak directly to you. I will ignore any further statements you make on this thread and future threads; but by all means, continue your tirade and condemnations unimpeded. If anything, you should continue to be predictable.
I am sure you'll stick around for my results when I have evaluated the cable.
I wish I could say, "nice talking to you." But since you weren't nice, I cannot say that. However, I can say, "good bye."
In light of the above discussion, interesting quotation directly from the Lavri cables website:
"5N silver transmits electrical signals faster and with less distortion than ordinary OFC wires".
Hmmm.
@twoleftears we would have to ask them (Lavri) what it is exactly that they mean.
They do have Linz weaves for ICs, so maybe they means that the inductance low so as to providing a faster response?
But the last bullet mentions air - I am not is it is aI rated teflon, which have a lower dielectric constant, and provide a faster signal than non-airated.
• New carefully braided 14 core pure silver mains cable.
• 5 cores of 5N solid silver wire AWG28 are used for Active line and 5 cores for Neutral in order to transfer AC voltage.
• 4 cores of silver plated copper 0.3mm diameter are used for Earth line.
• Aimed for Preamp, DAC, Streamer, Headphone amp.
• Unshielded design brings more air & transparency to the soundstage.
• Woven Teflon Litz construction is ideal to deliver RFI and EMI rejection and provides low capacitance.
• 5N silver transmits electrical signals faster and with less distortion than ordinary OFC wires.
• High grade Teflon insulation gives a predominant air dielectric and is regarded as the best insulator for bare cable.
You know, it doesn’t matter how many times you post in opposition,
What part was in opposition?
it doesn’t make you any more of an expert on what you’re talking about than the previous times you haven’t established it.
I actually understand some of the electronic principles and atomic prociples.
You, as well as others, have failed to provide any accolades or links to any proof that back up your claims.
I asked previously what sort of links and evidence you wanted.
(There are textbook in the engineering physics departments that cover this stuff to deep levels… and we can reference pages out of those to help you.)
I don’t agree with what you’re saying because from my education and experience, it doesn’t add up to reality.
Correct, it does not add up to reality.
If your position comes from a place of nay-saying that cables cannot and will not make a difference, then you are wasting your time. If you *ARE* coming from a place where cables make a difference, then you need to find some articles written by reliable sources that can prove your stance.
If the capacitance, or inductance differ between two cables then they can make a difference. More so in speaker cables and ICs, than in power cables.
For the resistance more so in speaker cables than in ICs.
You can assign as many ad hominems against me, and you can gaslight as much as it fulfills your quota, and it won’t change my understanding or position until you can prove me wrong beyond just your word.
What gaslighting?
What ad hominems?
For a psychologist you seem surprisingly more able at misconstruing the message, than I would have thought possible.
BECAUSE, as previously stated, *YOU* have not established that you are correct, nor have you established a reason why *I* should trust anything you say.
Understand? Feel free to begin picking apart my post and presenting it back to me out of context.
What is the context?
How does pointing the factual (science parts), that appear to be error, result in such a strong emotion response? I am just point out fact, so try and read it without emotion.
I will receive this dangerous and poorly designed cable on Monday evening. I will replace the Kimber Kable Palladian with this cable. It will burn in for 5 constant days. At that point, I will know if it outperforms the Palladian and I will report back to this thread with those results.
^That^ is great - I am sure a few people are interred in the results.
"Silver and copper are the two most conductive metals known to mankind, with gold following behind in third place. The conductivity of silver clocks in at 63 x 10^6 siemens/meter, roughly seven percent higher than the conductivity of annealed copper, which stands at 59 x 10^6 siemens/meter. Measured in ohms, the difference in the resistance (the amount of electricity lost as a current travels from point A to point B through a material) of 24-gauge, 1000-foot-long silver and copper wire is minor. The resistance of the copper wire is a mere 2 ohms higher."
You know, it doesn't matter how many times you post in opposition, it doesn't make you any more of an expert on what you're talking about than the previous times you haven't established it. You, as well as others, have failed to provide any accolades or links to any proof that back up your claims. I don't agree with what you're saying because from my education and experience, it doesn't add up to reality. If your position comes from a place of nay-saying that cables cannot and will not make a difference, then you are wasting your time. If you *ARE* coming from a place where cables make a difference, then you need to find some articles written by reliable sources that can prove your stance.
You can assign as many ad hominems against me, and you can gaslight as much as it fulfills your quota, and it won't change my understanding or position until you can prove me wrong beyond just your word. BECAUSE, as previously stated, *YOU* have not established that you are correct, nor have you established a reason why *I* should trust anything you say.
Understand? Feel free to begin picking apart my post and presenting it back to me out of context.
I will receive this dangerous and poorly designed cable on Monday evening. I will replace the Kimber Kable Palladian with this cable. It will burn in for 5 constant days. At that point, I will know if it outperforms the Palladian and I will report back to this thread with those results.
… (by the way, no one should be concerned because it isn’t their system. Also, the amp has a fast blowing fuse, so I am also not concerned in the slightest about damaging my speakers or system. I thank everyone in advance for their concerns for my personal and equipment’s safety.)
But people do care about this stuff and like to understand it, and to share their knowledge. Hence please provide some feedback after you have tried the new cable, so that others may benefit from your experience.
You’re right, electrons and metals do not care what resistance they encounter. They have no control over their molecular structures.
Actually a metal does have control of its atomic structure, which is why metals are conductive, and do not have a massive gap that they need to overcome in order to get an electron “free”.
However, circuit boards, capacitors, inductors, resistors, rectifiers, coils, and magnets do care a little bit as they’ll be the ones to make use of all those incoming electrons and someone configured them to care simply because there is an intended and desired end result.
The electrons for copper and the ones for Silver are the same sub atomic particulars. So all the electronics in the box have no way of differentiating where any particular electron came from.
And ^that^ assumes that it is all about electrons in a EE sense. If it is actually about electric fields, then the electronics may also care about things like dielectrics, which are not conductive.
In regards to inductance, it appears to be a specification largely applied to resistance coils in a circuit.
It is not a resistance coil. The things which are designed to have inductance are called inductors.
The things which are designed to have capacitance are called capacitors.
And the things which are designed to have resistance are called resistors.
Having low resistance will mean that the inductance will be different.
No, that is incorrect.
Silver has lower resistance than copper. Therefore, inductance will change between the two materials. After all, they can’t help it. ;)
Inductance is not resistance, and neither is capacitance call resistance.
Both inductance and capacitance are what make complex loads.
Resistance is the “real part” of impedance, and the complex part of impedance is governed by inductance and capacitance.
One can have a massive inductor, with a lot of inductance, and it can also have a DC resistance close to zero.
One can also have a massive capacitor, which will have a DC resistance that is super high, but can appear as a short circuit to a momentary load, or a high frequency signal.
The metal has no effect on capacitance, nor on inductance.
Geometry affects both capacitance, as well as inductance.
And the use of dielectrics only has an effect on capacitance... the dielectrics have no effect upon inductance.
I disagree that one can make better cables at home. I know, I have tried. It’s difficult to twist heavier gauge wire in the precise intervals needed to increase conductivity and lower resistance/inductance. You really need precise machinery and tools which if you went and bought, and then bought the materials, you would be out as much money as it would have cost to buy one of similar specification. I suppose the only benefit then is the satisfaction that you made it yourself
Places sell the wire woven, and some people do simple twists on smaller wires/cables. Kimber 12TC is one example of a bare woven wire. And there is another out of Tx, which I forget the name of.
I guess I am done then. The cable arrives on Monday and I have every intention of using it. :D (by the way, no one should be concerned because it isn’t their system. Also, the amp has a fast blowing fuse, so I am also not concerned in the slightest about damaging my speakers or system. I thank everyone in advance for their concerns for my personal and equipment’s safety.)
You’re right, electrons and metals do not care what resistance they encounter. They have no control over their molecular structures. However, circuit boards, capacitors, inductors, resistors, rectifiers, coils, and magnets do care a little bit as they’ll be the ones to make use of all those incoming electrons and someone configured them to care simply because there is an intended and desired end result.
In regards to inductance, it appears to be a specification largely applied to resistance coils in a circuit. Having low resistance will mean that the inductance will be different. Silver has lower resistance than copper. Therefore, inductance will change between the two materials. After all, they can't help it. ;)
I disagree that one can make better cables at home. I know, I have tried. It’s difficult to twist heavier gauge wire in the precise intervals needed to increase conductivity and lower resistance/inductance. You really need precise machinery and tools which if you went and bought, and then bought the materials, you would be out as much money as it would have cost to buy one of similar specification. I suppose the only benefit then is the satisfaction that you made it yourself.
@holmz Yes I should have said conductivity, not speed. I am entirely prepared to accept your scientific explanation and I thank you for it.
But this element of the discussion relates to topping up large capacitor(s) in a power amp to replace power used by the unit in playing music. If you employ a decent gauge of wire (as manufacturers put in the box for you), there is no way enough juice is not going to get to the cap(s), and no way sending 107 per time unit is going to be better than sending 100. Indeed, the cap won’t absorb anywhere near all the power that can run through the wire and will in fact draw a lot less than that.
The concern is entirely unwarranted and obsessive
@clearthinkerI was pedantic on using “conductivity” versus “speed”, mostly for others who might later read this… and agree with your post ^above^.
(I know you know it, so it was mostly for the future.)
Well, since no one has proven themselves to be true, by backing up their supposed "correct" statements with any form of facts, it is the assumption that one should just "take them at their word." Too bad that use of sarcasm and belittlement ruins ones credibility if one hasn’t proven themselves prior. I have no choice but to disregard answers that are marred by needless derision.
There are text books and equations that are in the field of physics and electronics and EE that have been mentioned. Would it help to mention the theories and laws? Or to provide links?
“I’m not sure why that isn’t more clear to you." <- Because no one posting is an actual Electrical Engineer and is unable to provide any source for their statements. These are all ASSUMPTIONS and GUESSES.
I am %90 sure there is at least one poster is a EE, and %100 sure that one has a degree in physics.
That not withstanding, most of the part with electrical codes is rooted in a high school shop electronics class or H.S. physics level of things like Ohm’s law.
People have linked the published conductivity numbers for various metals.
So these are engineering assessments, and not guesses and assumptions. The only assumptions are what the actual current needs/requirements are.
This is SOLID SILVER wire at 28awg. *NOT* multiple, hair-thin, strands twisted together to make 28awg. Yes, that is an important distinction.
Also, *EACH* *INDIVIDUAL* strand is insulated in Teflon. First of all, silver has an extremely high melting point (over 900F). So, regardless of my electrical load on a 15 amp plug at 120v that single silver 28awg wire isn’t going to melt; even if it is subjected to a constant 15 amp load at full 1800 watts.
I think it would likely melt. I made a hot wire cutter for styrofoam that runs somewhere around 5 amperes through a with about 0.032” in diameter, and the bastard gets red hot and smokes through the foam. The foam actually cools it from conduction, so it is a balancing act to keep the middle hot enough to plow through the foam, but the free ends cool enough to prevent the wire from splitting apart.
(It glows red hot.)
IN fact, the Teflon jacket has a heat rating of 500F (260C) Therefore, if we all here waxing "scientific" and "math" and "electrical engineering" I could run my speakers on just that one 28awg insulated wire and not start a fire or short anything out. If I am wrong, prove it (spoiler alert, you can’t.)
Prove it yourself.
You can use a FLIR camera and measure it, if you so choose to.
That is like 16W maximum on a 4 ohm speaker. People often use 11-16 gauge on speaker wires, but horns and older high efficiency speakers could manage 20ga. So it is on the hairy edge, but on a 8 or 16 ohm speaker should just work.
With that said, taking 20 of these silver cables means offloading heat and electric loads. In final, it means you all are incorrect in your assessments, until you can actually prove it. That means not just taking your word. That means going out and finding an algorithm that can determine correct awg needed for 100watts from a 120v US socket using silver wire encased in Teflon (and I wish you the best luck finding it.)
Ignoring the math on heat flow, like the work of Fourier, many would use the FLIR camera, or a thermocouple to measure it in-situ.
This post, if you bothered to read the original post, is whether or not there is a performance change using a braided, insulated silver power cable versus an insulated and filtered copper cable. I had actually avoided stating what company was making the silver cable. Interesting that you, once again, wrongly assumed something.
The original post was about silver versus copper AS WELL AS about the filter that matches the standing wave… here is one part:
With that said, changing to a power cable that uses pure silver insulated in Teflon, will ensure that power is delivered potentially faster. Although, the silver power cable will NOT have a filter. Therefore the standing wave ratio will not be mitigated and the electrical signal will not be choked either.
It is mostly the “Faster” and “Speed” part that is a problem.
You’re taking this out of context. I don’t know whether you’re doing that on purpose or whether you haven’t followed the whole thread. *I* am not questioning whether or not 100 watts running at .83 amps is correct or wrong.
You should question ^that^, as it is the basis over overthink else.
Most electricians do not question it, they just assume that it can draw up to the 15 amps… or they use a clamp style ampere meter and measure it.
0.83A looks like 100W, but there are 2 speaker connected to a stereo amplifier, so you more like 1.6A, and with losses everywhere along the chain is only goes up.
A Class-D amp might be 80% efficient, but a Class-A or AB is less. At 50% efficient, then we double the 1.6A and get to 3.2 amperes… or more.
*I* am questioning whether or not it is a problem running that on Teflon insulated solid silver.
The answer here^ is. “0.83 amperes is < than the 2.1 amperes that the cable is rated for.”
But I would want a cable that is capable of inrush current, and can handle the maximum expected or measured current needs. That teflon is not going to help a whole lot, as the idea is not have the cable trying to get to 260 C on its own internally… That 260C is more like, “use this cable in the engine bay, where the temp can get to 100-200C, as a PVC cable will likely melt if the engine bay is too warm.” It is NOT, “Use teflon because I am wanting to run an undersized wire red-Hot”.
You’re all so busy attacking me, that you can’t see that you are all applying algorithms based on copper to silver.
So....I must apologize as I don’t see where I need to feel any shame.
I am not a psychologist, but I seem to recall that shame statistically varies by cultural. No one posted anything that seems to be overtly laden so as to induce shame, so it appears that you are piling the shame onto yourself.
Being emotional usually tends to impede one’s ability to absorb new and difficult information.
Run whatever cable you feel is good, and have a nice day.evening.
One of my nearly lifelong friends is a retired engineer at NASA and let me know that the electrons that pass through a cable, interconnects and power cables, pass along the outer surfaces of those cables, so if you'll spring for silver, no need to spring for solid silver vs. O2 free copper with a jacket of silver.
@cleeds "It looks like you're right. He keeps asking for "proof" that he's already provided and the math is so simple. He's using a cable that he says is rated at 100 watts, which is .83 amps at 120VAC. Period. His load is apparently just under 1A."
You're taking this out of context. I don't know whether you're doing that on purpose or whether you haven't followed the whole thread. *I* am not questioning whether or not 100 watts running at .83 amps is correct or wrong. *I* am questioning whether or not it is a problem running that on Teflon insulated solid silver.
You're all so busy attacking me, that you can't see that you are all applying algorithms based on copper to silver.
So....I must apologize as I don't see where I need to feel any shame.
I think we have all said the same thing in several different ways. The OP has made up his mind. Our attempts to help him understand will never persuade.
It looks like you're right. He keeps asking for "proof" that he's already provided and the math is so simple. He's using a cable that he says is rated at 100 watts, which is .83 amps at 120VAC. Period. His load is apparently just under 1A.
...regardless of my electrical load on a 15 amp plug at 120v that single silver 28awg wire isn't going to melt; even if it is subjected to a constant 15 amp load at full 1800 watts.
@theaudiomaniacIt's amazing how you think you or the posters in this particular thread represent the entire Audiogon community, or audiophile-ism for that matter.
I am not interested in what you or others "think of me." As it doesn't change how my audio system sounds. However, it must be important to you, or you wouldn't bother retorting.
This post, if you bothered to read the original post, is whether or not there is a performance change using a braided, insulated silver power cable versus an insulated and filtered copper cable. I had actually avoided stating what company was making the silver cable. Interesting that you, once again, wrongly assumed something.
So sorry, but one can not continue to say the wrong things in different ways and expect to be right. So, yes. I have made up my mind and cannot be persuaded by poor and incorrect explanations; especially when they don't answer my question.
Because, rather than answering the question, you all attacked the question.
In my 30 years experience and my studies in Psychology, when people attack a question rather than answering it, it is because they are displeased at not knowing the answer; so they get defensive. When logic puts them in a corner and they're forced to face their deficiency in that knowledge, they immediately retreat. An example of this last segment is:
"If anyone would like to know what those violations are, feel free to message me. I do not wish to contribute here."
"I think we have all said the same thing in several different ways. The OP has made up his mind. Our attempts to help him understand will never persuade. "
All because no one wants to back up their statements with facts. Likely because, such facts will either prove them wrong, or don't exist.
So...if everyone is giving up, I will concede that no one knew the answer or couldn't find the answer.
I think we have all said the same thing in several different ways. The OP has made up his mind. Our attempts to help him understand will never persuade.
First of all, all this "math" is making the assumption that what is being used is bare copper wire. Copper wire has a particular rating that requires a set of math to regulate using it for electrical purposes. Once you add insulation, shielding and other materials, that rating changes. Changing the conductor will also impact the math. Those algorithms are *NOT* universal to all applications, materials, regions or devices. Hence why I ignore them.
Until folks start backing up their statements. Such as, what safety regulation(s) is being violated? Even you have failed to do so: " it looks to me that you're using undersized wire here and, yes, that's potentially hazardous." Hazardous how and in what way and who stated this is true or is this more "guessing?"
"I'm not sure why that isn't more clear to you." <- Because no one posting is an actual Electrical Engineer and is unable to provide any source for their statements. These are all ASSUMPTIONS and GUESSES.
I will state this for the last time:
This is SOLID SILVER wire at 28awg. *NOT* multiple, hair-thin, strands twisted together to make 28awg. Yes, that is an important distinction. Also, *EACH* *INDIVIDUAL* strand is insulated in Teflon. First of all, silver has an extremely high melting point (over 900F). So, regardless of my electrical load on a 15 amp plug at 120v that single silver 28awg wire isn't going to melt; even if it is subjected to a constant 15 amp load at full 1800 watts. IN fact, the Teflon jacket has a heat rating of 500F (260C) Therefore, if we all here waxing "scientific" and "math" and "electrical engineering" I could run my speakers on just that one 28awg insulated wire and not start a fire or short anything out. If I am wrong, prove it (spoiler alert, you can't.)
With that said, taking 20 of these silver cables means offloading heat and electric loads. In final, it means you all are incorrect in your assessments, until you can actually prove it. That means not just taking your word. That means going out and finding an algorithm that can determine correct awg needed for 100watts from a 120v US socket using silver wire encased in Teflon (and I wish you the best luck finding it.)
"The safety violations are not invented." Of course they are. Electrical safety regulations don't occur naturally, they have to be invented.
"If anyone would like to know what those violations are, feel free to message me. I do not wish to contribute here." <- Code for, "I don't know the answer."
... you haven't provided any form of tangible proof that you are correct. Math is math, but where does it say that your math presents a violation of electric safety ...
The cable is supposed to be rated for 100 W on a 15 amp wall socket.
That's an odd way to spec a cable, but @jea48assumed you're running 120VAC, and noted:
100W / 120V = 0.83 amp
What's your load?
I have tested the system at full load and it wasn't even pulling 1 amp.
Based on this info and all the back-and-forth in this thread, it looks to me that you're using undersized wire here and, yes, that's potentially hazardous. I'm not sure why that isn't more clear to you.
The safety violations are not invented. Knowing that takes expertise, some of the same expertise required to discern what is and is not relevant in this conversation. You seem unwilling to accept expertise that contradicts what you think you know so I will wish you good journey. I see no value in contributing further to this topic. If anyone would like to know what those violations are, feel free to message me. I do not wish to contribute here.
@theaudiomaniacI agree fully, I am the arbiter of what I feel is correct. This is called "discernment."
The safety violations you are claiming, are largely invented. As "regulations" tend to change by region. Also, you haven't provided any form of tangible proof that you are correct. Math is math, but where does it say that your math presents a violation of electric safety. Please post that, so that trust can be established.
Blame trolling for there being a lack of trust by default.
One day you will understand that you, holding yourself up, as you are, as the arbiter of what is correct and not correct, when you lack any ability to do that, can never lead to an advancement of your own knowledge.
I am not assuming that Lavricables is incapable of good engineering or haven't tested their products. I am stating it. They are violating at least 2 aspects of the electrical code which verifies my statement about their products not being tested at a minimum for safety.
@guakus, Best of luck. I hope they build the cable more robustly then you have described here. I am pretty sure they have an outer jacket and that is good. You have been given “the facts” about the rated max current load of this thin power cord. Not one I would ever use or build. My little LPS would max that cord out!
If your amp or whatever piece of gear this cord is plugged into has an issue, please know the cord will potentially fault before the 2-3x higher rated fuse blows. This alone should be sobering.
Well, since no one has proven themselves to be true, by backing up their supposed "correct" statements with any form of facts, it is the assumption that one should just "take them at their word." Too bad that use of sarcasm and belittlement ruins ones credibility if one hasn't proven themselves prior. I have no choice but to disregard answers that are marred by needless derision.
I already said I don't deny my lack of knowledge. It is unfortunate that humans see questions as a form of vulnerability and a lack of knowledge a weakness and therefore feel compelled to shame, belittle, harangue, and harass such people. Psychologically, this stems from a self-esteem issue; that is hardly my problem.
Also, cost doesn't always equal quality. If I spent $699 on a pair of Bowers & Wilkins that doesn't suddenly stop the speakers from being "good" or well engineered. I find it entertaining that people have a false notion that lower cost equipment can't possibly sound good because it didn't financially set you back. I take some measure of pride that my system is unique and it sounds just as good as systems 10 times or more the cost. I also couldn't care less if people believe that is true. They don't own this system. They've never heard this system and they will never hear a system like this. In other words, most lack the experience to judge. All they can do is make guesses. Yet folks enjoy ridiculing people who "make guesses" 🤔 Odd level of hypocrisy.
Also, you're making an assumption that Lavricables is incapable of good engineering or haven't tested their products. Sounds like what I would expect from someone who actually doesn't know any better.
It is easy to troll people who are in a rush to prove what they know, especially if what they know is not a lot. If this is a troll, a lot of effort has been put into it. The poster has system pictures with many expensive accessories.
The best example of this is when I was running Audioengine A2+. Those are tiny and needed far less power. Those were also running on the Palladian. The power main was the Shunyata Research Delta. I felt the sound quality was incredible, except a bit thin because of the size of the drivers. I upgraded to the HD6 with the expectation that it would sound better than the A2+.
The first clue should be the $699/pair, powered speakers, that makes up the reference system. Most should have checked out at that point if they didn’t check out from the insistence that those most likely to be able to answer the question don’t answer the question. Expert troll or begging the answer or just confused? Either way, it has sure brought some people out with some very curious ideas of how electricity and circuits work. I find it entertaining.
Concerning the mixture of various answers in this thread, I feel like they all counter each other. On the one hand, saying that the type of conductive material doesn't matter, but on the other hand saying you need more conductive material. 🤔 Then suggesting cables don't make a difference, but getting a bigger cable is best 😏.
Okay, I will play along just for fun. If you insist on only getting answers from people who don't have the knowledge to answer, why are you surprised that the answers are all over the place. People with the appropriate knowledge will all respond the same. People without the appropriate knowledge will be guessing and their answers will be all over the place.
The cable provided by the manufacturer is barely 18awg. It will still be twisted copper strands the thickness of a human hair. The manufacturer didn't believe there was a fire risk with copper strands the thickness of a human hair twisted into an 18awg strand encased in PE. Copper and PE have lower melting points than silver and Teflon. Again, these silver strands are thicker and separately encased in Teflon before they are braided. I am not concerned about a fire risk, not even in the slightest.
My query is about differences in performance, not safety.
Concerning the mixture of various answers in this thread, I feel like they all counter each other. On the one hand, saying that the type of conductive material doesn't matter, but on the other hand saying you need more conductive material. 🤔 Then suggesting cables don't make a difference, but getting a bigger cable is best 😏.
In regards to being careful about cost, the cable I am getting is three times cheaper than the one it's replacing. So nay-sayers should rejoice in my decision 🤑. It just so happens that all the other super-expensive cables I have replaced in my system with this brand have each surpassed their predecessors. Albeit all those cables were Synergistic Research cables. This time it will be Kimber Kable. We will soon see if Kimber's pinnacle product can be bested by a cable some folks think is a fire hazard or snake oil.
@holmz Yes I should have said conductivity, not speed. I am entirely prepared to accept your scientific explanation and I thank you for it.
But this element of the discussion relates to topping up large capacitor(s) in a power amp to replace power used by the unit in playing music. If you employ a decent gauge of wire (as manufacturers put in the box for you), there is no way enough juice is not going to get to the cap(s), and no way sending 107 per time unit is going to be better than sending 100. Indeed, the cap won't absorb anywhere near all the power that can run through the wire and will in fact draw a lot less than that.
The concern is entirely unwarranted and obsessive.
@holmz As to manufacturer’s hype, we all need to keep our bullsh** detectors turned up full, otherwise we and our wallets are just cannon fodder.. Most people know that electricity travels at something approaching the speed of light, so a 7% reduction in the time to traverse a 6 foot length of wire will not be very long at all in audio terms. In this discussion, we are only keeping a capacitor topped up of course. You just can’t beat good old common sense that regrettably appears in very short supply these days and not just in audio
Yeah but it is not 7% faster, it is 7% more conductive.
And even if we were to say it was 7% faster, throwing in some PVC or Teflon slows the field down by 1/SQRT(k), so using an insulator with a lower dielectric constant (k) defines the speed. But alas the conductor material does NOT define the speed of electricity, nor the speed of light, or any other EM field.
And if we were to imagine some massive high amperage burst during a uS, then the inductance probably comes into play much quicker than the silver versus copper conductivity.
As others have pointed out going from a 14ga copper to a 14ga silver is 7% better for lowering resistance, but going to 12ga or 10ga is a lot more benefit than 7%.
Than as @mitch2 sort of implied, the current flow through a 20ga cable seems like it going in the opposite direction of the OP’s hypothesis of dumping massive short current bursts into the amp.
I use an effective 20ga for ICs, and they seem OK… however I would be using a “store bought” power cord over a 20ga power cord.
The mention of the 20ga power cord solution has me thinking that we have been expertly trolled… in masterclass fashion.
For those nervous types who are obsessed by the risk of noise, I concur about DC battery supplies. These are particularly useful with preamps as you say, where the oomph required is much less than for power amps. But unless you are an electrical engineer, you need to buy an amp with built in provision for a battery supply, and this restricts choice unacceptably for most. I wonder if there s a place for a well-engineered all-in unit to do the job of inputting to an amp designed to take only 240v AC. Battery supply kills off all noise issues except for the very severely obsessed.
The old preamp was fine and has no noise issues.
The new power supply one was a package deal with a phono stage.
It sounds good, but I did not get it being obsessed with noise… It just looked good to have all the pieces in a stack, and adds some Feng Shui to make domestic bliss.
I am NOT getting a battery pack for it, but if I was to put it into, say, a camper or motorhome, then I easily could.
@holmz As to manufacturer's hype, we all need to keep our bullsh** detectors turned up full, otherwise we and our wallets are just cannon fodder.. Most people know that electricity travels at something approaching the speed of light, so a 7% reduction in the time to traverse a 6 foot length of wire will not be very long at all in audio terms. In this discussion, we are only keeping a capacitor topped up of course. You just can't beat good old common sense that regrettably appears in very short supply these days and not just in audio.
For those nervous types who are obsessed by the risk of noise, I concur about DC battery supplies. These are particularly useful with preamps as you say, where the oomph required is much less than for power amps. But unless you are an electrical engineer, you need to buy an amp with built in provision for a battery supply, and this restricts choice unacceptably for most. I wonder if there s a place for a well-engineered all-in unit to do the job of inputting to an amp designed to take only 240v AC. Battery supply kills off all noise issues except for the very severely obsessed.
And, in case anyone was in doubt, it makes no difference if the power traverses the cable 7% faster.
@clearthinkerto be fair to the OP, it is spruicked in the literature of many of this sort of gear, using words of speed and fastness… and all sorts of things that help them, sell the gear as “being needed.”
I certainly have spent more than I ever thought I would on a power supply, and I could spend more on a battery for it, as the front end preamp and phono amp uses 12V… So the last thing I would do is put on a fancy 240v cable to it with a darn good (and proven) reason.
One should never use a power cord under 16 gauge in a stereo system. 20 gauge runs have no place in a stereo system. 20 gauge is fine for some low wattage lamps and LED lights, but not a stereo component. Yes, it is a potential fire risk. It will also blunt dynamics and bass performance. It will sound lean lacking body and proper weight.
Now you can use 20 gauge on 5,9 and 12 volt DC power cables. The ones used to power modems, ethernet switches and such off of a linear power supply
Solid core conductors should also not be used. They stress and break over time with handling and use. This is especially true of thin 28 gauge conductors.
Lastly, it is not safe to rely on the thin Teflon coating of these conductors as the sole material between the L, N and G runs. Any small nicks, breaks, cracks in the wire can cause shorts and possible electrocution.
On a properly engineered power amp the capacitors are big enough to supply power to the main boards for quite a while. So once they have filled on switch-on, the rate of current flow to them is of little consequence, they will be kept fully topped up at all times. All you need is a wire capable of carrying enough current to refill what is taken out. Standard power cables supplied with amplifiers can do that many times over.
And, in case anyone was in doubt, it makes no difference if the power traverses the cable 7% faster.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
