Serious Question About Silver vs Copper Conductivity for Power

guakus

I understand that silver conducts 7% faster than copper. 

I do not think that is correct. Silver has lower resistance than copper, but the speed of conduction is the same.

@guakus 

You are correct, the speed is the same, but the resistance is lower in silver, so in "theory" more current can travel through Silver then Copper. But since every wire up to the plug in your room is copper, having silver from the plug to the amp isn't going to give you any boost in current. As for if a Silver power cord sounds better then Copper regardless, I ain't stepping into that pile of wires....personally I use  mid-range priced copper AC cords, but more for the better shielding and connectors then anything. 

@cleeds 

I suppose I don't fully understand resistance. Lowered resistance should mean that electrical current can pass without as much hindrance. For example, I can run faster on the open road, than if I tried to run in waist deep water.

A wire would heat up when too much current runs through too small of a wire. Your 14 awg copper Kimber Kable P14 Palladian power cord should be just fine for the 50W rms power amplifiers inside of your Audioengine HD6 Wireless Speakers. Unless there is a problem you are trying to solve, I cannot imagine a change in your power cord making a sonically noticeable improvement for your situation. Save your money for booze and enjoy the music.

@deadhead1000 

If I am not mistaken, you're saying that copper and silver conduct at the same rate of speed, but silver's lowered resistance means it can carry more current than copper?  If that's true, then having an 8awg copper wire will deliver more current than a 14awg silver wire? Therefore the only advantage in power would be solely having more conductive material than another cable.

In regards to power path, I have more silver in the path than is common.  The house mains are copper, but the outlet is silver.  The mains plugs are silver and that cable has a primary silver core (and another conductor that is copper.) Albeit the power distributor is all copper. Then going out is copper all the way through.

I have heard performance increases changing power cables. Interestingly enough, those changes were upgrades to one of the following categories:

1. Gauge size (larger.)
2. Plug quality.  Gold plated bronze to gold plated copper.
3. Passive filters.

This will potentially be the first time I have attempted a change that was solely the core conductor.

@mitch2 

I have 45 bottles of different Bourbon, 12 different Rums, 4 Scotches, 5 Irish Wiskeys.  I don't need any more booze. ;)

Also, I am solving a power problem: Dynamic Transient Current Delivery.

As stated in my OP, the faster you can fill the capacitor for the amps to draw on, the better the performance.

The best example of this is when I was running Audioengine A2+.  Those are tiny and needed far less power. Those were also running on the Palladian. The power main was the Shunyata Research Delta. I felt the sound quality was incredible, except a bit thin because of the size of the drivers. I upgraded to the HD6 with the expectation that it would sound better than the A2+.  It was not. In fact, it was flat, non-engaging, and generally blah. All it did was add more bass that I didn't really want. That bass was overpowering all other sound.

I tried changing:
1. ) Main incoming sound cable.
2. ) Internal fuse.
3. ) Room treatment.
4. ) Vibration solutions.

These all made changes to the sound for the better, but not in the amazing way the A2+ was doing. Like an envelopment or bubble of sound that had both clarity and realism. This was still a wall of two dimensional sound.  It had better clarity now, and better sound stage, and the bass was becoming more tamed, allowing for more high frequency data to come through.  But it just wasn't there.  Until...

I upgraded the mains power cable from Shunyata's Delta to the Alpha. I went from 10awg to 8awg. That did it, for the most part. That created the envelopment and engagement I was after. Other tweaks followed and aided in more clarity, but nothing as drastic as changing the power cable.

So, if the other comments are correct, then all I did was add more conductive material to the power path. Which now begs the question if 20 cores of 28awg silver wire individually insulated in Teflon is equal to or better in terms of conductivity than 3 14awg copper bundles insulated in Teflon, but with a filter?
 

Other than component choice, my main improvement to my system came via the Shunyata Everest 8000 power conditioner and Alpha / Alpha NR PCs. I went with Venom NR for subs. I think the Noise Reduction coming out of the Everest was important and the Everest’s ability to momentarily provide 30 Amps x 6 circuits doesn’t hurt. So, clean power that can provide momentary power surges seems to really step things up. Next, I’m increasing the gauge of my speaker cable, but still staying copper.. will be using the AQ William Tell Zero full range.  I'm still on a 15 amp non dedicated circuit.

Yes, I realize that this topic is going to bring out the sharks, but if I get at least one serious response, it will all be worth it.

I understand that silver conducts 7% faster than copper.

Speed of conduction is not what is happening.
There is just slightly less resistance.

There is not some magic with silver that makes it “faster”, but silver and copper is make of neutrons, protons and electrons… and the # of protons is what defines silver as unique.

The electron movement is what carries the current in the wire.

 

I also understand that using a dielectric insulation like Teflon is best at keeping the wire from overheating,

The Teflon’s keeps the live and neutral from arcing.
The arcing would overheat the wire.

The teflon also keeps the ting from arcing into one’s hand when touching the wire.

 

stopping signals entering and stopping signals from leaving the conductor.

The teflon does nothing for isolating the conductor that way.
One would use a shield to shield the wire from external fields.

 

I understand that a certain amount of math is involved in selected gauge of wire depending largely on how much power the component is going to take, and how much the amperage is (20 or 15).

My question is regarding certain features applied to either silver or copper conductors that may or may not have an advantage over one or the other.

I have the Kimber Kable P14 Palladian. This uses 14awg copper conductors insulated in Teflon. Then it adds a massive filter that attempts to mitigate the standing wave ratio to as close to 1:1 as possible. I had Kimber’s Ascent power cable prior. It’s identical to the Palladian, except the filter. I have heard the difference between using those two cables. Apparently, mitigating the standing wave ratio lowers the noise floor significantly. However, any filter that chokes the signal and will slow the electrical current.

The US 60 Hz is already pulsing at 120 Hz through the rectifier. So one is not able to do any “filling up of the capacitors” for some amount of time, which happens at 120 Hz.

 

As I understand it, the amplifier works by opening the rectifier to allow the capacitors to fill with energy that the system will draw from. Being able to keep the rectifier open and fill the capacitors as fast as possible, reducing lag time, has the effect of creating more realistic and detailed sound.

If one were to show that the output power was higher with one cable versus the other, then we could be onto something. I did not see anything on the Kimber site explains the cable… no standing wave ratio or anything else.

 

With that said, changing to a power cable that uses pure silver insulated in Teflon, will ensure that power is delivered potentially faster.

Not in reality it won’t be any faster.
If the electronics on the cabe are filters, then you could get less noise out the end of the cable. But we do not know what is happening in that “fat part” of the cable.

 

Although, the silver power cable will NOT have a filter. Therefore the standing wave ratio will not be mitigated and the electrical signal will not be choked either.

So, would the amplifier benefit from faster electrical current or slower, but cleaner electric current? Since this signal isn’t directly applied to sound, the concepts of “colder” or “warmer” sound should not apply.

Since there is unlikely to be any “Faster” happening, then cleaner would be potentially better. But that assumes that the amp is not filtering out any noise.

and we do not know what the “fat part” of the cable is, nor what it is doing. It looks good though.

 

Can someone help me out without poking fun at the question? Additionally, I am not interested in having a cable-theory debate. If you don’t believe cables make any difference, I will not debate or have discourse on that topic.

At some point, understanding how cables work from a theory perspective is worthwhile. If we are only going to go by belief in cables, then it is only a place where we can have testimony and debate.

Personally I would prefer to stick to facts.

Your perspectives on how electrical current flows, and the speed of the flow is contrary to electrical theory. That coupled with not knowing what the ”filter” is, nor its parameters makes it a crap shoot as to what is happening.

I suppose one could use an oscilloscope and maybe 119 Hz and 1kHz and look for some low frequency IMD happening to the 1 kHz tone? Or clipping on the 119 Hz, as it is sliding past the incoming 120 Hz? But without that, it is sort of more along the lines of a story, which is heading towards fiction. If there was a shield over the cable, it may not do anything, but it would have a basis in fact. Also if the “fat part” of the cable was some capacitor shutting high freq noise, then that would be factual and could reduce noise coming out of the amp… but that gets smaller and small on high quality amps that are fingering out noise.

 

Additionally, I am not interested in having a cable-theory debate.

One cannot chuck out erroneous statements on how cables work as the premise for changing a cable, and expect that some discussion on theory would be out of place.

If the 8 awg Shunyata Alpha power cable sounds so good, why not just stay with that cable?  I wouldn’t have thought larger conductors should make a difference for the size amp in those speakers but if the larger gauge cord sounds better then use it.  I also wouldn’t expect using silver wire should make a tangible sonic improvement over using copper wire, but you can certainly listen and choose what sounds best to you.

I use 7 awg copper cables (similar to these) feeding 650 watt power amplifiers because to me those large gauge power cables sound better with the big amps than the other PCs I have tried.

The power cord does not have any effect on the filter capacitor charging time. The filter cap discharges when the rectifier output falls to zero and charges when the voltage from the rectifier exceeds the voltage on the capacitor. The charge time depends only on the power supply load resistance multiplied by the capacitance (RC time constant). For a cap to charge faster, the capacitance must be larger, and a larger capacitance results in a higher current draw. This higher current is sourced from the transformer secondary, which must have a high enough VA rating to meet the speaker load demand.

As long as the voltage from the wall receptacle isn't reduced, the amplifier will preform to spec. A larger gage  power cord will lessen any voltage drop more so than if it's copper or silver. You will need a power cord length of a 1,000 feet to see only a 1-ohm difference in resistance from copper to silver.

I'm not going to dive into whether one sounds better than the other, but from a physics point of view a six foot silver or copper pc the same gage has no electrical differences at 120 volts at 60 hz.

@mitch2 

The 8awg Shunyata power cable runs from the Shunyata Research V16 Power Distributor and the wall socket.  The Kimber Kable runs directly to powered speakers.

@holmz 

I never said there was silver magic, nor did I imply it.  That is an erroneous and rather offensive stereotype that I don't appreciate.

I don't deny my lack of knowledge.  However, I have decades of experience.  You may see that as baseless testimony with no "facts" to back it up, but no one will have those facts.

As to the information you were unable to find:

"Breakthrough Power Cord Technology

Palladian looks significantly different than other high-end power cables. That's because of its breakthrough technology resulting from thousands of hours of research at Kimber's well-equipped laboratory.

Kimber's engineers developed a special SWR (standing wave ratio) enhancement technology, which dampens electrical standing wave reflections. This proprietary technology has permitted the creation of an AC power cable of unmatched clarity, silence and freedom from grain."

A simple google search on "Kimber Palladian Standing Wave Ratio" will find multiple sites with this blurb. Even though it is for an earlier model, the tech never changed, only the look.

And the information regarding dynamic transient current delivery can be found here:

There is no article for how the rectifier and capacitor system worked because that was a discussion I had with technical support at Shunyata Research about their equipment and cables.

If I am wrong, fine, I am wrong.  The results are all I care about.  No harm in wanting to understand WHY I have those results.

I’m not going to dive into whether one sounds better than the other, but from a physics point of view a six foot silver or copper pc the same gage has no electrical differences at 120 volts at 60 hz.

+

and going from 14 ga to 12 ga is much less resistance than a 6% boost in going to silver from copper - in terms of conductivity.

 

And back to the earlier physics…
The teflon insulation actually cuts the speed proportional to the dielectric. So the field propagation along the cord is delayed more as the teflon, or whatever’s dielectric constant goes up.

Does that make a difference? Probably not… but a copper wire with no insulator is faster than a copper wire with teflon and/or a silver wire with a teflon jacket.
Faster by a few nanoseconds.

@gs5556 

That is precisely why a discussion in cable theory won't help. I have already had this disccusion with one electrical engineer who tried to use math to determine what the electrical capabilities were of the 8awg cable vs the powered speaker that was using it and he didn't understand why I needed such a cable.  Well, that's because there is always a variance in the spec of any device.  Manufacturers will give you the basic cables that guarantee function, but that doesn't mean a more robust cable won't cause the device to perform better.

There are no tools for measuring sound quality except the human ear and that tool is subjective.

I never said there was silver magic, nor did I imply it. That is an erroneous and rather offensive stereotype that I don’t appreciate.

Correct, but you said that Silver conducts 7% faster than copper.

I understand that silver conducts 7% faster than copper

And also that the teflon keeps it from overheating.

Both those statements are erroneous.

 

It is also a fact that Silver is touted as having magical qualities by many manufacturers that sell it. Gold is actually 3rd behind silver and then copper in conductivity, but it also has a magical allure.

 

I don’t deny my lack of knowledge. However, I have decades of experience. You may see that as baseless testimony with no "facts" to back it up, but no one will have those facts

it is not your lack of knowledge that is the problem, it is that much of this gear is marketed with magical properties and stories which are laden in golden eared testimonials. Some/most cables do not even list the specs! At least Kimber provides some specs for the speaker cables (4TC and 13TC at least), so they are up the list a ways in comparison.

Without some provable facts it is difficult to understand whether they work or what they do. I would usually prefer to put the funds into a piece of gear that is more immune to needing a cable in the first place.
If the manufacturer says that “brand-X” cable is what they recommend than that is at least a good start.

Without that we are left with listening tests, and experience.

 

There are no tools for measuring sound quality except the human ear and that tool is subjective.

Ask your EE friend if he could measure the voltage of the power supply output. If so, then he would then have a way to show whether or not it was dropping down and a “faster cable” might help fill it better.
See what he says.

if the power supply output is rock solid, then I cannot imagine any way that a cable could help… but more noise would be worse.
He will know what is means, and could give you some insight.

yes i believe the first reply by @cleeds nails it

@holmz

"Though silver wire is roughly 7 percent more conductive than a copper wire of the same length"
 

 

@holmz pretty much summed up the problems with this post.  I'll also say that I'd pay extra for interconnects without some "filter".

Conductivity goes gold, silver, copper, aluminum.... solid cable is not necessary because electricity travels on the outside and not throughout a wire... if it is silver coated that should be enough. The only thing I can say is I use silver coated wires and it seems better... but that is my impression.

@holmz +2

@holmz  +3

@guakus , OP you clearly had your mind made up before your post and are not interested in basic science facts. So much a sign of the times (sigh)......

@gareents 

No, because no one has still answered the question.  It's clear they are unable to answer it because they don't believe cables make a difference.  So they attack the question rather than answering it.

Folks like @holmz and yourself see any discussion of cables making a difference as an invitation to shame and belittle.

He hasn't offered any real scientific facts that matter.  Talking about 60 vs 120 hz is just name-dropping scientific data that has no bearing on the question. 

He completely removed his credibility when he focused on my "7% faster" comment as "magical."  So I posted the scientific journal that explained it. I could keep going, but what's the point.  It's just an on-going shame-game to you folks.

The reality is, you folks have made up my mind.  You don't have the knowledge nor the experience to answer the question.

One side listens and compares and the other decides based on their understanding of science, but the scientific method involves testing your hypothesis and based on results you refine your hypothesis.  Sure there are snake oil salesmen and some unwarranted prices, but there is a huge chasm between cable design doesn't make a difference and it always makes a difference.  I've spent a lot of money on cables and power.  I only keep what I perceive as making a difference.  Call me an idiot, but that gets us nowhere and you have to ask yourself when calling me an idiot, how was I smart enough to earn the money to pay for the cables.  I guess that next, you will say that I'm privileged, or a thief.  I propose that rather than go to this extreme, listen to a really good system and then put in your zip cord and listen again

 

@vonhelmholtz


My question isn’t a hypothesis nor does it require faith in "magic" cables. It is based on science, despite the haranguing being heaped on me.

The question can be boiled down to:

Does the lowered resistance of silver improve amp performance over filtered copper?


If one doesn’t believe cables make a difference, need not attempt to answer the question because by default they are unable to.

As for the criticism of word choice on "faster" electrical conductivity, consider this: "Silver is sometimes thought to be the best conductor because its electrons can move faster than other elements—which is attributed to the polarity of crystals and their structure."

Source:

 

when it comes to power cords for audio applications, non-conducting materials are far more important than conducting materials. regardless, the discussion may continue to derive further nonsense and go on...

@czarivey 

I disagree.  I have seen the most prolific changes in audio by upgrading the power end of the system.  Mileage may vary.

@guakus ,

I don’t know if a difference in sound can be heard, from say a power amp, whether the conductors of a power cord are copper or silver. (Interconnects and speaker cables, are a different story.)

Things that can make a difference in a power cord:

The wire gauge used for the conductors.

Solid core or stranded wire conductors.

Geometry, how the cable is made.

Shielding.... Can be good and can be bad. Depends on the application, the equipment it is used to feed.

The type and quality of the connectors used.

 

As for the speed of current through a conductor, in a circuit. It’s travel is very slow. As slow as molasses.

 

You may find these exchanges of some interest.

 

kijanki

4,284 posts

06-07-2022 at 07:27pm

2x200W amp might take from mains close to 1kW during peaks. The problem is that peak supply current won’t be expected 8A, but rather close to 40A. It is because current is drawn only for very short time (millisecond pulse) at the peak of full wave rectified sinewave. It applies to most of LPS. Power delivered with such short pulses not only creates larger voltage drops in house wiring, but also heat-up amp’s power transformer, that has to be oversized (higher copper losses and higher core losses for eddy currents and hysteresis).

https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/329443/current-through-the-smoothing-capacitor-in-bridge-rectifier

 

jea48

3,875 posts

06-07-2022 at 08:04pm

 

@kijanki

+1

 

Please explain what happens if the power transformer’s secondary winding voltage is lower feeding the rectifier, due to a quick AC mains VD event, and the electrolytic capacitors voltage is higher. Just going from memory the rectifier will not conduct and the caps do not get recharged for that "(millisecond pulse)" in time.

 

Jim

 

kijanki

4,284 posts

06-07-2022 at 08:46pm

@jea48 You are right - there will be no current thru rectifiers until capacitor voltage will drop below rectifier supplied peak voltage. Theoretically it is possible to build LPS where capacitors keep average instead of peak voltage, but it requires huge inductor in series (in order of Henries) made with thick wire and AFAIK nobody is doing it. One problem is lower rail voltage (average instead of peak) while the other is dependency on the load current.

http://www.r-type.org/articles/art-144.htm

 

 Circuit wire gauge size matters.

.

@jea48 Thank you sir!  Finally, a reasonable response. If there was an award, you win it. :)

To answer some of your questions.  The power cable's geometry will be a total of 20 strands of 28awg solid silver, each 20 separately insulated in Teflon.  All braided into a hyper-litz geometry. 7 will go to hot, 7 to neutral and 6 to ground.  The braid and insulation is meant to be its "shield." It doesn't have an external mesh like other cables.

This power cable will be coming off a Shunyata Research Venom V16 distributor which uses their Alpha HC cable from the wall.  The wall socket is an Audioquest NRG Edison that is housed within Furutech's internal and external socket shield.

This is connecting to a Powered Speaker.  The speaker has two single-ended, linear, mono amps. One for left and one for right. The power board and cross over for the right channel is built into the right speaker and its drivers jump directly off that board. The Powered Speaker connects to its Passive brother via a similar cable as the power cable will be. 20 solid silver 28awg each insulated in Teflon and braided in a hyper-litz.  The difference will be 10 for the positive (right) and 10 for the negative (left) and using banana plugs instead of an IEC C7 and NEMA 15 Amp plug.

Obviously, the cables jumping off the crossover will be copper. Maybe one day, out of boredom, I will consider buying a few short runs of this same silver wire and change out the internal cables. I have already rolled the OEM fuse for Synergistic Research's Purple fuse.

@guakus You've answered wrong question. I wasn't contesting whether there's or there is no difference when you upgrade the power. I was mentioning that non-conducting materials in power cords are far more important while silver or copper absolutely make no difference.

@czarivey

I will find out in a few weeks whether or not that is true (for me and *this* particular system at this particular location.)

Based on your suggestion, you’re saying that a filtered copper cable will be superior to a braided silver cable? Both these cables use Teflon as the insulating dielectric. The gauges are similar. The copper cable uses three 14awg stranded conductors insulted in Teflon. the geometry is a simple twist, but has a massive filter attached. The silver cable uses twenty 28awg solid silver conductors, each strand is individually insulated in Teflon and braided together in a hyper-litz. It splits out as 7 braided strands for hot, 7 braided strands to neutral and 6 braided strands for ground.

@guakus

 

I would not build your power cable with these 28 gauge, solid silver conductors. The combined gauge per leg is only 20. Not enough! Also, using solid core this thin will be prone to break over time and handling. Not safe. I would also place in a proper outer jacket for safety in the event of a break or Teflon breach for safety.

Lastly, the sound will lack weight, body and bass. It just will. Not a good idea for all of these reasons in my estimation. Food for thought. 

@grannyring

Ok, fair enough. The company that makes it surely would have received many complaints by now if it was that bad. Just consider that a copper conductor will have multiple 28awg strands twisted together before it is insulated in Teflon. In this case, each strand is individually encased in Teflon before being braided. There is no strand interaction. I get the concept that it could be brittle, but I don’t plan on moving it around after I plug it in. It will be stationary for many years.

I gave the company my system's specifications before the cable was built.  The cable is rated for 100w at 15 amps.

I will be able to tell very quickly if there is a lack of bass as these speakers are overly bassy.

If you must do this, and it is fun to DIY, then consider these tips. Solder the proper sized spades to each leg so the plugs clamp down on the spade. Don’t simply clamp down on the bare wires as these thin silver strands will easily be compromised. The plug clamps will cut into the wire and easily compromise the connection, sound and safety. Use pure silver spades if you like. Crimp or crimp and solder if you like. Just be sure and use spades.

Reconsider using an outer jacket for safety.

What is the length of the wire (material any) has a power cable? - and now try to dismantle any unnecessary medium-sized transformer ... it will be many MILES!

Do you get the idea? - if you need a more pronounced effect - try different transformers ...

Moving on... Your car runs on gasoline; You say - gunpowder burns better and faster - I will fill the car with gunpowder)))

The same situation with music - it will sound best if the electrical conditions in your house are as close as possible to the conditions of the studio where the recording was made ... any deviations (faster - slower) will spoil everything ...

@grannyring 

I will not be building this cable myself.  It is being built by Lavricables in their Master line.  I would have preferred their Grand line, but they said the C7 plug would not fit three separate bundles. They use a 9% silver solder.  I trust their construction.  I have three of their cables and they are fantastic.  This will be my first power cable from them.

@serjio

The length of the cable is 2 meters.

I am not certain what point you are trying to make regarding "Transformers." If you're referring to neighborhood, city, state electrical lines, average citizens generally don't have the power to have those altered or changed.  However, if one was super rich, I suppose one could buy anything. ;)

I don't think gun powder vs gasoline is a very good analogy to explain the electric current from copper vs silver.  I would say 86 octane vs 93 octane gas would be more appropriate.

I have to be honest.  If I listened to everyone's opinions on why getting a particular high end cable won't have a positive impact on my system....I wouldn't have as awesome a system as I have.  I have even had manufacturers recommend that I DON'T buy their high end.  Yet, when I do so, the effects are incredibly positive.  Devices and speakers don't have some built in fail-function that detects better incoming signal and decides to block it, ensuring that no further positive effects are possible beyond X, Y, Z point. Even the most poor device or speaker will perform at its maximum specification with better connections.

I don't have to worry about blowing anything up, thankfully.

I see.  Thank you for that clarification. 

@guakus ,

The power cable's geometry will be a total of 20 strands of 28awg solid silver, each 20 separately insulated in Teflon.  All braided into a hyper-litz geometry. 7 will go to hot, 7 to neutral and 6 to ground. 

Are you building, making, fabricating, this cable?

Teflon insulation should not be solely the insulation used to insulated power line conductors from one another. Example, insulate the hot conductor from the neutral conductor and safety equipment grounding conductor. You can use Teflon for each parallel run of the hot and the neutral paralleled conductors but you will need to use a rubber or equal covering over each paralleled group of conductors.

As for the EGC, (Equipment Grounding Conductors), it's a safety ground. It does nothing for sound. Just use an insulated stranded copper conductor.

As for the individual 28 gauge solid silver wires. For AC power, jmho, that is too small. I would think the wire gauge would have to be at least 16awg.... Maybe 18awg. 

Here is a Web Link to a wire combination calculator.

https://www.wirebarn.com/Combined-Wire-Gauge-Calculator_ep_42.html

Note: 7 , 28awg conductors in parallel only equals 20awg.

7~ 18awg = 10awg

5~ 18awg = 11awg.

Agreed. Not a cable any cable company should be selling based on the safety issues clearly evident here. Not trying to be difficult here OP. Just not my nature. Rather, trying to nicely make it clear that this design is not safe or prudent in my opinion. I have built many, many cables over the years. 

@guakus said:

I gave the company my system’s specifications before the cable was built. The cable is rated for 100w at 15 amps.

100W / 120V = 0.83 amp.

1800W / 120V = 15 amps

 

Maximum ampacity for 20awg copper wire = 1.5A  (Power transmission line)

https://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm

 

Folks like @holmz and yourself see any discussion of cables making a difference as an invitation to shame and belittle.

He hasn’t offered any real scientific facts that matter. Talking about 60 vs 120 hz is just name-dropping scientific data that has no bearing on the question.

He completely removed his credibility when he focused on my "7% faster" comment as "magical." So I posted the scientific journal that explained it. I could keep going, but what’s the point. It’s just an on-going shame-game to you folks.

The reality is, you folks have made up my mind. You don’t have the knowledge nor the experience to answer the question

I am not responsible for emotional feelings, and you are reading in shame and belittling on your own.

You started off saying that the silver is fast, and the teflon keeps it from burning… both statements are untrue.

We do not know if a “faster cable” is better, but 60 Hz (120 Hz) is pretty slow. The way top make a cable faster is by lowering the inductance and/or the capacitance.

1. We lower the inductance with geometry.
2. We lower the capacitance with geometry and the dielectric.
   1. Teflon has a high dielectric constant (k), so we are going the wrong way. You need something more towards k=1 to lower capacitance.

If you are going to buy the cable based upon emotion, then just buy the thing and be done.

If you want to buy the cable based upon theory then it gets difficult as we need theories and metrics. The metrics for the cable did not appear to be provided, and the EE theories are not considered to be overly easy.

The third way is to some up with an alternative hypothesis. This was offered previously, and namely it was , “the output only depends on the smoothness of the DC power supply.”
One could measure the DC power supply, while the amp is in operation.

Or we just by how it sounds, but that is covered in psychoacoustic theory. And it is laden with bias.

 

As for the criticism of word choice on "faster" electrical conductivity, consider this: "Silver is sometimes thought to be the best conductor because its electrons can move faster than other elements—which is attributed to the polarity of crystals and their structure."

^Freer^, is probably a better word, than faster in that website quote…

 

Lastly; when people are trying to offer you help and solutions to your question, then accusing them of causing you offence is not helpful in adult conversation. Either explain where and how you were triggered so that they can work on their delivery, or try and read the post without inserting your own emotions.

Have a good day sir.

Conductivity goes gold, silver, copper, aluminum.... solid cable is not necessary because electricity travels on the outside and not throughout a wire... if it is silver coated that should be enough. The only thing I can say is I use silver coated wires and it seems better... but that is my impression.

@frankmc195 there are also silver wires with insulation other than teflon. Coincidentally I have these en route for ICs.

And there are also copper wires with with insulation other than PVC and teflon, specifically with a lower dielectric constant.

And there are wires in silver with the Linz geometry, which are used when one wants lower inductance, like for a phono lead.

table 7.1 here: https://www.engineeringenotes.com/metallurgy/metal-conductivity/conductivity-of-metals-metallurgy/41956

Says:

1. silver
2. sodium
3. copper
4. gold
5. aluminium
6. …

And in a power cord the frequency is low by definition, so more of “the whole wire” is carrying the current. That current gradually moves towards the surface as the frequency increases.

@guakus - No, I actually agree that power cords can make a difference in sound quality. They certainly have in my experience.

However, that does not obviate the science of conveying electrical current, something which you seem to want to ignore.

I have the direct answer to your question.

I have replaced the Kimber Palladian PK10 (an early version) with my DIY silver power cord, feeding my DAC.

For the change to be an upgrade you need to keep these in mind:

1. keep the total AWG the same or heavier. If you go lighter on the total AWG, then you will loose bass, energy and weight (whether on your amp or DAC, phono.) And yes, even though a DAC or a phono stage draws hardly any current, they still benefit greatly from a very heavy AWG power cord. That's because they will be able to draw instanteneous current, and while this current is little, it will come without resistance.

2. The shorter the silver, the better.

3. Avoid lengths of 0.5m, 1m, 2m, 4m. The 0.5,1,2,4,8m series is the perfect antenna to pick up the worst EMI/RFI offenders. Use in between values such as 0.3m, 0.7m, 1.3m, 1.6m, 3m,....

3. The thinner the silver, the better. Try to use AWG30 or thinner. (Yeah, you will need on the order of 100-200 wires per hot / neutral to get the heavy AWG for a power cord!) Use soft anneal silver. If possible, "DEAD SOFT" 3N silver. The dead soft is more important than being 4N or 5N.

4. You also MAY use heavier AWG silver strands, and even sterling silver (only 92.5% silver content), provided that the wire was drawn 50 years ago (or earlier), and the metal had time to recover from the stress of drawing. I have used 70y old AWG19 sterling silver for my power cord (with total AWG10 for each conductor - hot and neutral, no earth ground), about 12in long. (DAC right next to the outlet.) The wires are run inside PTFE tubing, and the two tubes carrying hot and neutral are not running together, but away from each other. You want air to be the dielectric, as air is the best. The teflon tube only touches a piece of the outermost wires.

5. Burn-in: at the beginning of silver burn-in you will notice that high frequencies go up 6-10dB in level. Then it will stabilize, yet feels as if the volume knob is 4-6dB higher than before (well, in my case, compared to the PK10!!!) Now, it's quite crazy considering I'm talking about a DAC with a fixed output. Yet, that was my observation. It will get through this phase in a few days. Resist the temptation to change your crossover, as the tonal balance will stabilize. The power cord change made my DAC sound WAY, WAY more analogue-like, alive, fleshed-out and balanced. The change was literally a paradigm shift. Low resolution mp3 files have lost their digital feel, they sound almost analogue like. Although with less detail level than a high-rez file, but good enough that I feel zero urge to go for higher res versions. Even YouTube / Netflix sound is absolutely engaging.  

I'm sure I will get tons of harassment for this post. Fair warning: I'm not gonna be able to engage in lengthy debates - lack of time.

If you are intrigued or curious, then try it out and report back.

Cheers, Janos

 

 

@gareents "However, that does not obviate the science of conveying electrical current, something which you seem to want to ignore"

If I am ignoring it, it means two things:

1) The concept has not been explained well.
2) The concept does not directly apply to the question.

@grannyring 

The system this cable will be connected to runs: 150 W peak power total (50 W RMS / 75 W peak per channel), AES

The cable is supposed to be rated for 100 W on a 15 amp wall socket. I have tested the system at full load and it wasn't even pulling 1 amp.

What is the danger you feel will occur?  A fire?  A short?
 

@realworldaudio 

I am not building the cable myself, although I have built my own cable before (three 10awg copper wire using a simple braid, encased in a Flurocarbon heat shrink.  I use it for my sub at present.)

This is being made specially by Lavircables

They are going to have to use Furutech plugs because they don't have an IEC C7 connector.: https://www.lavricables.com/cables/master-20-core-silver-silk-mains-eu-power-cable/

 

If you decide to go with an outer jacket try to avoid materials containing Barium Titanate.

 

DeKay