Serious Question About Silver vs Copper Conductivity for Power

Cable received.

The cable was connected to the system with absolutely no troubles.  The system powered on with no issues. I turned the volume to extremely loud levels. No sparks, no fires, no shorts, no blown fuse. I touched the cable and the plugs.  Cold to the touch.  The mathematical equations and speculations being used to propose that the cable wouldn’t support the system or that it was unsafe did not accurately predict the result.

However, there is a correction that might help explain why. I spoke with Lavricables about the design and it turns out the spec on my cable is different to what is listed on their website. This was a custom design after all. The cable’s source end is C7 (figure 8) so they did not include a ground wire. Therefore, the 20 cores were split into 10 x 10 and not 7x7x6.  10 hot and 10 neutral. This is closer to their Grand Line.  Therefore, the overall gauge has changed. Perhaps this is why things didn’t explode. ;)

Within the first couple of minutes of use, the sound was more centered and those sounds were more forward in the sound space. The just-left and just-right of center was very close to the center instead of wider apart. The treble at high volumes does sound a bit tinny.

After over an hour, the micro dynamics are becoming far clearer than ever before. Using an example, Dave Brubeck Take Five album, track “Strange Meadow Lark.” At 2:06, just before the drum symbols and horn are about to kick in, you can hear the drummer about to set up and the horn player pick up the instrument and shift in his seat.  I could barely make out those details before, now they’re so loud and clear you cannot not hear it. At present the soundstage image is literally a triangle. With left and right being very rigid and the center sharply forward. 

After one day, the tinniness of the highs have settled down.  The sound stage has expanded to the far sides and is developing the desired envelope.  It has already exceeded many of the capabilities and performance of the previous copper cable. Distant cymbals in songs are no longer truncated.  The peel is longer and cascades more realistically.

On the third day (approximately 48 total hours) the sound is very detailed and bright yet seems to be missing some richness, such as some mid-bass.  For example, the hollow thud of a kick bass drum before the actual resulting bass note. This will change over time, as this has been my experience from Lavricables before.  Certain qualities fade in and out until it finally settles down and the sound signature finally reveals itself. As a side note, one of the downsides to all this detail is that you can now hear the analog hiss in older recordings.  

Fourth day, 77^th hour. The missing mid-bass is returning. The sound stage has expanded further, creating the desired envelope.  The localization of instruments is very precise. The only thing missing at this point, is the level of realism in the vocals that the previous cable had.

Fifth day, 96^th hour. The sound quality has now surpassed the previous cable. The realism to the vocals has returned. At this point, the sound signature has been revealed. There will be a few more increases over the next 40-50 hours, but they will be small, incremental increases mostly in sound stage expansion and richness to the sound, especially in the mid-bass and mid-range.

CONCLUSION:

My OP question was:

Does a power cable with 20 separate 28awg solid silver conductors, each insulated in Teflon and woven into a hyper-litz configuration have a performance difference from a power cable using three 14awg copper wire bundles insulated in Teflon in a simple twist, but with a filter.

Answer:  Yes. The largest difference is increased clarity of micro-dynamic details and louder representation of those micro-dynamic details.

NOTE: Keep in mind that this is the result on *MY* particular system. Experience may vary.

dear OP - i look forward to how it goes.  i swear by very expensive silver litz cable for power.  it makes a huge difference.  a good one :-)

stage 3 concepts who make cables and sell them and have a nice business also think so.  their famous kraken for example is based on silver and litz (amongst other things for dampening etc).  fred crowther makes a review of AudioNote M10 as well as S9 (SUT) and in part 2 of that he talks about AN's litz silver power cable (Sootto) versus the Kraken.  Fred is a reviewer and a person who has owned the best of the best. 

audioquest also think silver and litz is a good idea for their highest end cable (dragon cables). albeit silver plated i think

as i hear it litz silver reduces noise substantially.  this means more gain as @realworldaudio pointed out from his own silver litz power cable.  with less noise i hear more, especially alot of bass.  but i can hear all sorts of stuff i couldn't before.  plus the speakers disappear more and frankly everything just sounds pretty great.

my only issue is how expensive it is which is why i am fascinated to see how you get on.  

the very best to you

gaukus/kenjit/mozartfan???

DeKay

@theaudiomaniac, thank you for corecting my incorrect statements, and sorry to all for stating incorrect things! That was of course not my intention. It's been many years since I studied these things.

I've found an interesting article about the skin effect: https://www.belden.com/blogs/broadcast/understanding-skin-effect-and-frequency/

I was surprised to read that an electron travels that quickly through a wire.

Well, all in all it shows that even a thread with such an OP can have a positive effect.

this has gone from mildly amusing, for its dysfunctionality, to completely looney-tunes

You all need to understand something. You have no power to stop me from posting. You don’t have the power to stop me from asking questions. I am not at all obligated to believe anything you say if I don’t think it is correct.

The only people with that power are the Administrators and Moderators on Audiogon. If they don’t like my content they’ll remove it, as they have on a number of posts in this thread.

I have an important conclusion coming, this Friday. I will be posting that conclusion whether you appreciate the content or not. There is absolutely no rule that I am violating.

I am not certain what type of individual you are used to harassing, but I won’t be intimidated by any of you. So, by all means continue to reveal who you really are in this thread; it will make no difference to me.

That is an oddly worded “thanks for everyone that tried to answer my questions” post.

So I guess, “you’re welcome.”

Secondly - it is both within your rights, as well as the gentlemanly thing to do, to post your findings.
This is the way for others that are looking at cables such as these, to gain the insights of your direct experience… in addition to the more engineering oriented input that others have given.
It would be remiss of you not to tie a bow around it, when you are ready.

@guakus - I think most here who have posted comments are more concerned about your physical health than the sound quality of this power cable. 

@andresco50 - That is a pretty broad brush your painting with stating that silver power cable wire will sound bright in all transparent systems. I have 3 in mine (all 12ga) & it is not at all bright.

FWIW, my system consists of a pair of B&W 802D's, a Linn Klimax preamp, & a Magnus Audio solid state power amp.  

You all need to understand something.  You have no power to stop me from posting.  You don't have the power to stop me from asking questions.  I am not at all obligated to believe anything you say if I don't think it is correct.

The only people with that power are the Administrators and Moderators on Audiogon.  If they don't like my content they'll remove it, as they have on a number of posts in this thread.

I have an important conclusion coming, this Friday. I will be posting that conclusion whether you appreciate the content or not.  There is absolutely no rule that I am violating.

I am not certain what type of individual you are used to harassing, but I won't be intimidated by any of you. So, by all means continue to reveal who you really are in this thread; it will make no difference to me.



 

@jew16384 I have called no one names, but you have.  Pretty sure you're headed down the road to being banned.  Bye.

Usually when a posts starts out this way, it begging for argument or suggests paranoia.

Yes, I realize that this topic is going to bring out the sharks, but if I get at least one serious response, it will all be worth it.

^It^ is a clue, for the wise, to stay away.
(As I did not, it shows evidence of a lack of wisdom on my part.)

Guakus you have serious problem why you need the center on what you deem is relevant to what believe you know and argue calling people names, what wrong with you can be resolve on Audiogon. Don’t be a DICK.

@jew16384 At this point let’s give the OP the benefit of the doubt that he/she may have issues that we really don’t need to know about, and cannot help their communication style.

If we stick to facts and take a helpful tone, that is about the best that we can do. So let’s just avoid getting sucked down into the mire.

I don’t deny that conductors can and will degrade overtime. However, there is an electrical feature called, "Dielectric Bias Field." This is where the insulation becomes more polarized over time by electrical flow. The "break in" period is the time it takes the insulation to becomes fully polarized and no longer impacts electric flow.

Your original post talked about silver versus copper, and a few people brought up the dielectric, including myself… as being potentially of greater importance.

If you were concerned with that, then AQ biased cables would have been a choice to consider.

The PC’s, (power cord’s) weakest link is the 7 small solid core silver insulated #28awg wires that make up the Hot and Neutral conductors and the safety equipment ground conductor of the PC. Any flexing of the cable, especially at the power connectors can and more than likely with the passage of time will cause breakage of the small #28awg wires.

@jea48

Accounting the manufacturer the ground is copper. So that is great that the ground if potentially more durable.

The URL says Silver/Silk, but the description says Teflon.
They (Lavri) also recommend it for loads much smaller than amplifiers (As highlighted below) , which others have pointed out with the math on currents, and watts.

• New carefully braided 14 core pure silver mains cable.
• 5 cores of 5N solid silver wire AWG28 are used for Active line and 5 cores for Neutral in order to transfer AC voltage.
• 4 cores of silver plated copper 0.3mm diameter are used for Earth line.
• Aimed for Preamp, DAC, Streamer, Headphone amp.
• Unshielded design brings more air & transparency to the soundstage.
• Woven Teflon Litz construction is ideal to deliver RFI and EMI rejection and provides low capacitance.
• 5N silver transmits electrical signals faster and with less distortion than ordinary OFC wires.
• High grade Teflon insulation gives a predominant air dielectric and is regarded as the best insulator for bare cable.

Be patient. The cable is currently burning in. Cook your popcorn and get your incendiary, troll comments ready.

@guakus how are you “burning it in”?

1. Just plugged in and nothing playing?
2. Or playing some sound?
   1. And then how loud is it playing?

@djones51 

No.  I meant 192F:

"The heat doesn't affect the copper conductors in the wiring. They can handle far higher temperatures than those found in attics. The problem is the plastic insulation and jacketing that surround the wires. These are usually rated to withstand up to 194°F, but temperatures that approach this limit are not recommended."

By all means heat your bare copper wire to over 192 F and see how effective it is at supplying electricity 

I assume you meant 1900f ? 192f isn't going to affect copper wire it might melt some insulators. 

@jea48 

Voltage drop? 

"Voltage drop is the decrease of electrical potential along the path of a current flowing in an electrical circuit. "

How on Earth does that apply to using this cable?  Who cares what the formula for Voltage Drop is. That in *NO WAY* applies to anything.  Why are you bothering with all this?

Going through that article you posted:

"The best metal conductor of all is pure silver"

"Silver is an even better conductor than copper, but since it is more expensive, it is only used in very small amounts."

Beyond that, I see nothing in that article that backs anything you have said against applying this cable to the equipment it is currently attached to and running with  no issues.

Again, I am not sure what you think you're trying to prove, but if your goal is to prove that this cable is unsafe, you're failing; miserably.

@guakus said:

Temperature impacts the conductivity of wire.

Yes it does. But not for the good... It can change the ampacity rating of a conductor. Different types of insulating materials used only allows the wire to heat up more increasing its ampacity rating of the conductor. Not its conductivity.

Goggle Voltage Drop formula.

Look at the equation. Note, no where in the formula is insulation mentioned.

Heat can cause more resistance in a circuit. Is that a good thing?

https://learnabout-electronics.org/Resistors/resistors_01a.php

.

@jea48

"I think you mean Electricians." Yes, one is an "Electrician" but got his degree in Electrical Engineering. The other is a Engineer for BOEING who has a Masters Degree in Materials Engineering and he has had to study electrical engineering because he works on engines.


"The temperature ampacity rating of the wire may change, but not the conductivity of the wire"

Temperature impacts the conductivity of wire. Don’t believe me? By all means heat your bare copper wire to over 192 F and see how effective it is at supplying electricity. 🙄

@guakus said:

I have already run this by ACTUAL electrical engineers who build and repair houses for a living and both have confirmed what I already knew.

I think you mean Electricians. Electrical Engineers are not usually also Licensed Electricians. There is a difference between the two.

@guakus said:

Your equation has to change when you introduce insulation,

The temperature ampacity rating of the wire may change, but not the conductivity of the wire.

.

@guakus Said:

@jea48 How does running 20amps through a 15amp plug apply here? That’s patently ridiculous. I am not running anything that pulls 20 amps.

I suggest you reread what I posted. Not what you are implying I said.

I said:

If for any reason there is an electrical fault, the danger increases the farther the electrical fault is from the AC power plug.

Two types of possible electrical faults.

@westcoastaudiophile I will keep that in mind 10 years from now.

"This is where the insulation becomes more polarized over time by electrical flow."

polarization effect, caused by significant V/m electric field, does happen in DC powered wires, e.g. tube amp internal wiring. signals/power/speaker-conn are purely AC, thus polarization effect in dielectrics is not present. on other side aging of dielectrics does have an impact on dielectric constant and loss tangent, thus refreshing wires after 10+ years is good move to reduce signal/power losses.  

There is a reason why the electrical code does not permit less than 18awg wires for detachable cords or permanent cords as well. It also requires the ground wire to be equal or larger than the supply wires unless the branch is protected by a suitable current limiting device, in this case, the one in the breaker box, not the equipment.

You are correct.  The OP is ignoring this for some reason.  I have made a great many power cords and know first hand how this thin, solid core conductor will become stressed and crack/ break over time. This is so simple to understand. 

@rumi said:

Silver indeed easily breaks, mechanically, especially if it’s solid. For power cords, that can be a fire hazard. And intermittent power supply due to broken cable strands is probably not what you want.

And that’s a big elephant in the room imo... I could care less how the power cord will sound in the OP’s system.

The PC’s, (power cord’s) weakest link is the 7 small solid core silver insulated #28awg wires that make up the Hot and Neutral conductors and the safety equipment ground conductor of the PC. Any flexing of the cable, especially at the power connectors can and more than likely with the passage of time will cause breakage of the small #28awg wires.

There is not a recognized electrical safety testing laboratory in the World that would approve the use of the PC mentioned in this thread.

The PC is 2 meters long. The only insulating protection it has between the Hot and neutral conductors and the Hot and Safety equipment grounding conductor is the Teflon covering each single strand 28awg silver wire. No reputable PC manufacturer does that. Usually a PVC jacket covers the each grouped Hot, grouped Neutral, an grouped ground conductors.

If for any reason there is an electrical fault, the danger increases the farther the electrical fault is from the AC power plug.

Two types of possible electrical faults.

1) A Hot to Neutral short circuit fault, and or a Hot to safety ground fault. Either one of these will rely on the branch circuit breaker in the electrical panel to trip open. Many audiophiles think a breaker will immediately trip if the current in the circuit exceeds the breaker handle rating. Example, 15A breaker will trip if 15A passes thru it. 20 amp breaker 20 amps... That’s not true. For a bolted Hot to Neutral short or a bolted hot to ground fault the initial instantaneous current flow though the breaker can well be over 100 amps before the breaker trips.

2) Parallel and series arcing of conductors. Neither of these will cause a standard breaker to trip open. Arcing where a sufficient load is connected to the circuit creates sparks. Electrical sparks dropping on a combustible material can cause a fire.

Only an AFCI, (Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter), type circuit breaker will trip the breaker open when it senses arcing.

Circuit Breaker Myths. ( Article is old but still holds true to this day.)

introduction the myths basic breaker operation and design

The first (and most common) misconception is that a breaker
trips when its nameplate rating is exceeded. One fire text has stated (in correctly) that a circuit breaker will trip in several minutes with a small increase in current over its rating [1] . Actually, a 20 amp breaker must trip at a sustained current of 27 amperes (135 percent) at less than one hour, and at 40 amperes (200 percent of wire rating) in less than 120 seconds—far different from what the cited text implies.

These two trip points (135 percent and 200 percent) are
defined in NEMA Standard AB-1, MCCBs and Molded Case Switch-
es[2] . TABLE 1 lists the 200 percent allowable trip times for different
size (amperage) circuit breakers. MCCBs have characteristic ‘curves’
published by their respective manufacturers. A sample of such a curve
appears in FIGURE 1.

/ / / / / / / / /

CAFCI breaker (article is from 2010. Many improvements made to the breaker since then.)

Glad I stuck around. That last one was well worth the price of admission! Booyah!  I have figured it out. @guakus must be a bot, stringing together terms that sound like they are important and mean something, just like a bot would, but in both cases lacking enough understanding to maintain coherency. That or someone has read too much SR advertising copy, which is the equivalent to monkeys writing about physics.

A bias field w.r.t. a dielectric is an external field that impacts the dielectric constant. However, you need large fields, on the order of volts/um to make any difference. Even if the insulation was "polarized", it would be DC, and we are dealing with AC signals. We know the size of the capacitor, the DA, the source/load impedance, etc.  Any more pearls of wisdom for us @guakus ?  I am laughing so hard I am not sure I can take any more.

@westcoastaudiophile 

I don't deny that conductors can and will degrade overtime. However, there is an electrical feature called, "Dielectric Bias Field." This is where the insulation becomes more polarized over time by electrical flow. The "break in" period is the time it takes the insulation to becomes fully polarized and no longer impacts electric flow.

 

"When the cable has completed its 150 hour break in period"

cables don’t improve electrical characteristics much, they degrade overtime due to oxidation. thats why replacing old oxidized cables/connectors, with fresh proven-good ones sometimes can be “heard”. semiconductors are affected by aging most in initial ~100hrs, depending on stress conditions. good equipment manufactures have burnin step before releasing product for sale. tubes are the winner in aging/burnin process.

Someone did not take their meds.

Pot meet kettle. 

@grannyring 

I have owned numerous sound systems.  This system is not my only rig. I have a full system with traditional amps, pre-amps, floor speakers, subs, etc. I don't need to upgrade or tweak that system. 

Yes, I do experiment. In 30 years I have never once made a "dangerous" decision that ruined or destroyed equipment.  And this cable is no different. All your warnings and "math" have proven incorrect.  The cable not only powers the speakers just fine, there were no sparks, no blown fuses.  The cable and its plugs are cold to the touch.  So, no over heated wires either. Now, why is it your very careful and well thought out suggestions failed to come true?  It isn't that your math is wrong.  Your application *OF* the math was wrong.  Sorry, it happens.

But, I am getting ahead of myself.  When the cable has completed its 150 hour break in period, I will post the results of whether this cable bested the Kimber Kable. Stay tuned....or tune out. :D

@cleeds 

Prove it. ^__^

You could not possibly be more mistaken.

@cleeds Technically is it possible, just not probable. 😃

I have owned all manner of systems from ones like yours to massive power amps driving large Soundlab speakers to 3 watt tube amps driving horn speakers. I have built hundreds of cables also. I know more than you think or than I care to argue about. I shared truth about the cable design dangers. These are facts and I don’t care to argue in the manner you enjoy. 
 

I do see the value in being intentionally curious and we can agree that this power cord is one example of being curious and experimenting. It’s just not safe or prudent. 

guakus

Speakers don’t have a mechanical or electrical limit on quality.

You could not possibly be more mistaken.

@theaudiomaniac  please explain is awesome to learn 

I noticed this in two systems that we tried this nordost cable

sounded little bright and dirty

@grannyring

You’re making assumptions. You have no experience with a setup like this; none of you have. There is no shop or outlet you can visit to hear a setup like this or to evaluate its performance.

The frequency response is the frequency response. Speakers operate in terms of sensitivity. Such as, X amount of power needed to create Y amount of frequency at Z amount of volume. Speakers don’t have a mechanical or electrical limit on quality. They can have a sound signature. All speakers do is reflect what you give it.

The first problem most of you are unable to comprehend is, you’re applying your experience to a situation to which you have no experience. This means you have to make guesses and assumptions. You try to have confidence that you’re right; but the truth is you simply don’t know. You have no proof.

The second problem about your incorrect assumptions, is the application of the system. I would surmise that most of you have a large room that your system is in. You are trying to fill a large area with sound. That requires a larger system with multiple drivers and larger amps. My system is an application for a small area. It’s NEAR-FIELD. I am sitting directly in front of the speakers.

Thirdly, you don’t like what I am doing so you carry a bias that clouds you from having any form of objective opinion. That is neither proof your opinion is correct nor mine wrong. It’s just an opinion; nothing more.


You believe you speak for the entire community? Who are you to suggest what "Agoners" want? These threads are searchable on Google and Bing. Anyone out there who has questions and want answers can find these threads and read them.

Against your will or your opinion, I am going to post my evaluation of this cable and I will post the answer to my OP question since none of you have been able to do so. There isn’t anything you can do to stop it. All you can do is troll.

Be patient. The cable is currently burning in. Cook your popcorn and get your incendiary, troll comments ready.

@boxer12 

yes maybe could improve but it won’t be night and day difference

the main subject here is that silver plated copper sounds bright in transparent systems like mine

It will take about 2 minutes to go 1 meter and skin effect is important way below 1Ghz. It is measureable at audio frequencies but not audible. That copper pole in the ground is not nearly as important as audiophiles think it is. I doubt many (any) could elicit a good answer on what it may or may not do

Wow, the OP’s resistance to anything coming from reality is stunning.

The problem is that other people read these things and might come to incorrect conclusions that could have been prevented. (And I’ve just spent half an hour of my life reading nonsense.)

@holmz, @jea48, @grannyring, @cleeds and some others: Thank you for sharing your knowledge!

Now to some of the other posts... They would rather suit a psychology forum than an audio forum. That’s why they’re interesting to read - I am interested in psychology.

Some complementary information:

Electrons don’t run through a wire. It takes an electron many years of constant strong DC to move one meter in a wire, for example.

As mentioned, less resistance doesn’t equal more speed.

The OP doesn’t seem to understand in any way what all those capacitors are doing in the PSU of his... music thing over there.

The often quoted skin effect occurs above ca. 1 GHz. The skin effect is not relevant for audio frequencies. End of story.

There are many miles of cable before your 2m power cable (or 1.6m to prevent Russian spies from enjoying your music with you).

I would be much more concerned about the fuses in the electric installation of your house than about your power cord, as one example.

And grounding is a real issue. Star grounding can make a positive difference. Manufactures treat ground, shields and reference voltage rails differently, and not always in an ideal way. This can lead to various problems (especially noise). Grounds of different pieces of equipment that are connected with each other through unbalanced audio lines for example is a much bigger problem than the material of your power cord’s wire.

Ideally, you have a long copper pole burried in your garden, and connect all grounds directly to that (and also the chassis of some of the pieces of equipment).

Silver indeed easily breaks, mechanically, especially if it’s solid. For power cords, that can be a fire hazard. And intermittent power supply due to broken cable strands is probably not what you want.

The amplifier’s transformator was mentioned because it comes right after your expensive power cable. The wire in that transformer is much longer than your power cable.

Etc.

And then there’s psychoacoustics and the mechanism of our hearing and our brain, and especially our mind... I have been a professional sound engineer for several decades. I’ve experienced very surprising things over the years. The human ear and brain can be so easily fooled. Especially when you know the price of your new power cable...

Most audiophile listening tests are so immensely flawed that it is impossible to draw any meaningful conclusions out of them. Which doesn’t hinder the participants to write extensively about their incorrect beliefs, biases and baseless convictions in online forums.

If you’re interested in physics and electronics, please study physics and electronics for some years (and yes, don’t get your information from the people who try to sell you their snake oil).

It’s interesting to see that calm and informative explanations of facts from holmz and others is seen as insulting and hostile. I can only assume that this knowledgeable input is in no way understood. And the main point of the OP’s thread and posts seems to be defense of his (or hers) incorrect beliefs.

@andresco50 - I would give the Nordost cable a few days of continuous running to see if it changes any. I have not heard that cable but from your description it sounds like it may not be burned in yet.   

@guakus Did the cable arrive yet?

Hello 

This is my first post in audiogon forums.

I don’t have tons of experience but the other day a dealer lend me a nordost TYR 2 power cable that costs around 5k. I connected from wall to my torus power conditioner and sounded really flat, no dynamics no musical and little bright, this model conductors are OFC copper silver plated.
Then I connected again my Shunyata delta v2 again and the dynamics and great detail returned to music. So the material and the purity of the conductor  is really important, for me occ copper is the way to go, but I really want to test the Acoustic Zen gargantua II power cord with occ copper and occ silver 9AWG conductors.

Please if anyone have some experience with them will be awesome to read because is a mix of both worlds. Thanks 

I must be very important to you all for you to spend so much of your energy attacking me. Knowing you have absolutely no control over me, must be infuriating.

You misconceptions are what is being questioned, so do not confuse that as some an attack on you.

But you are taking this way more personally than I would have thought to be rationally possible.