Room Treatment Help

Before all the deep pockets chime in I’m going to represent the budget end..
 Search Amazon for Acoustic Panels..The ones I ended up going with are 1/4" thick,made from a composite polyester fibre & felt,NOT CHEAP FOAM..I used 12" x 12" size for the upper ceiling to wall transitions & 4’ x 2 ’ panels for the walls..I left some open areas on the walls so as to not overdamp the room...TOTALLY eliminated the horrible echo/reverb I had..Cost me a total of $350.00 to do the entire room..
 You can spend a LOT more but I doubt you will get dramatically  better results...

 

@freediver I’ve actually got ATS Acoustic panels in my cart. Haven’t pulled the trigger yet. There’s 2” and 4” thickness? No clue to what “actually will work in my room. Really nice job on your room. Looks sharp! And it sounds like there’s a definite room improvement. 

IMO,the problem with the ATS & similar panels will do nothing to eliminate the eco/reverb,which is likely coming from the ceiling/wall transitions..If you put the ATS panels right in the wall corners it will help but you really need to address the entire surface area in the room where these transitions are located...
 PS:Thanks for the props on my room..As a retiree with a modest income my discretionary funds are super tight,I think it turned out pretty well & didn't cost the price of a new component...

REW and a mic to analyze your room.  You can send the results to somewhere like GIK and they will make recommendations for you.

what you need to do is not just jump into buying treatment. first is RTA with REW and a calibrated mic. do iterative speaker placement with your speakers and take RTA to determine what has the best balance and listen to confirm. Only then can you know what kind of treatment you need

Also, @keeferdog, speak to Vespers of Warp Academy here

Measure the room before making any purchases. 
 

IMHO @freediver panels could address some frequencies but for bass problems you need other products with much more mass.  
 

On a prior home (room was 10x11x8), I “removed” the corners with PEG board and filled the empty space behind with Corning pads.  Then covered it with speaker fabric. 
 

I used a thick pile carpet with double padding on the floor and wrapped 6 Corning pads with fabric for first reflections. 

It sounded great. 

Generally for Absorption a Rockwool with a Compression of 35Kg per m3 is ample to tame reflections.

A simple framing and a cheap fabric covering on both faces as the initial design will create plenty to start to manage the energies present that are influencing how the End Sound is perceived.

Symmetry is usually important, so Two Panels - Four Panels - Six Panels will be the requirement if more Panels are introduced.

I like a Floor to Ceiling Panel when used in the Room Corner, set up to triangulate the corner as the Panel being offset from the Wall absorbs reflected energy bounced back. This is not achievable when a Door is in Room Corner. A 'L' Shape Panel is required, the Door will need a Panel attached to the Room Side Face of the Door and above the Door and the perpendicular wall will need a Panel placed.

The Width of all Panels used at Room Corners as a Triangulation need not excess 900mm. The Door Panel width should be mimicked by the Panel used on the Perp' Wall. 

A Wall Panel need not be more than the Height of a standard widow in a Room, expected to be approx' 4ft -1200mm as the largest dimension. The Wall Panel width can be 1ft - 300mm made with a little more robust framing as it will be hung of the wall not in direct contact, as in the Corner a space between panel and wall has benefits for capturing bounce back energy.

A Window can have a Acoustic Material used for the Curtain. A Curtain Rail can have a simple design for a secondary rail suspended from it, which can be used to hang a One Panel or a Few Absorption Panels on.

Reflective energy that benefits from dispersion can be picked up on, when the placing of absorption panels is showing benefits, that show the experimentation has been worthwhile.   

I have a dispersion on the Wall behind Speakers and behind the Listener, laces on the Walls Centre, both at a 50/50 Split of Width and Height.

On the Side Walls I have split the two used absorption Panels with a spacing of 1ft - 300mm and used a dispersion panel of the same width to infill the Space.

A Dispersion or Absorption Panel can also be suspended from the ceiling if energies are not being fully captured.

The Flooring is one of the easiest to treat. A soft furnishing can be placed if there is a hard surface finish in use.  If a Carpet is used, this can already be quite an effective at absorption, maybe too effective?

There is no reason to spend much more than a $150ish as the preliminaries to create absorption, there is a lot to be achieved with this outlay.

The costs will increase if the Panels are wanted to be kept, then the Panels will need a improved bracing to produce an increased rigidity to the framing. When aesthetics are to become the next stages of consideration, where there may be much more attractive Acoustic Fabrics being selected to cover the trial panels, these Fabrics can cost close to $30 per yard/2.      

if this is a man cave and you’re willing to do some DIY. Get two cases of 703 Owens Corning rigid fiberglass panels. I was able to get mine from a local insulation distributor. Fir Stripping for frame and colored burlap fabric. Some mounting hardware off of Amazon. Truly, a difficulty scale of one on a DIY project. Do some basic research on where to place. I would look at doing both 4 inch and 2 inch panels. It’s important that the fabric use select you can breathe through it. That is why burlap is suggested because of its ability to breathe.You may need to do some fine-tuning here and there, but you were going to have to start here in the first place so, square one it is. 

https://thraudio.com/diy-acoustic-panels/

GIK, just email them 

You can contact Norman Varney at AVRoomservice. 
much better than trial and error and wild guessing. 
With him you are in professional hands - and ears 😀 

For the multitude of individuals with an interest in Audio, All decisions made come with a element of unknowing, hence trialling is the most valuable approach, as the experiencing is everything to assist with making a fair evaluation.

No one has to be pay to acquire experience, making time is the key to the door.

Spending is easy and for many the simplistic method adopted to avoid acquiring new experiences, especially ones that can prove to be valuable and indelible.

" Act in haste repent at leisure " is the way to part with ones coffers and make another more satisfied with their side of the arrangement.

The OP is well informed of how they can learn more about what is occurring in their listening space, be it there own endeavours or pay to get given a data produced by a visiting service that might mean very little to them. 

I have had a great experience with GIK.  The professionalism and guidance is of the highest order and they offer a range of products to fit most budgets and design aesthetic. 

I agree with @jastralfu, @kofibaffour and @ervikingo.  Before spending any $ on any product, learn what your room is doing and needs.  Download REW  (it’s free) and get a Dayton OmniMic or similar product.  They are not expensive and can often be found used. 

Take measurements with the mic at the listening position and send the MDAT file, your room dimensions, and images of your speaker and listening location to GIK.  They will analyze the information and make recommendations.  Then you can decide what you can afford, and whether you purchase from them or another vendor or go DIY. 

I can tell you that having REW data was eye opening.  Speaker and listening positioning have a huge impact on what you hear in the room, and even how room treatments are positioned (angled, stacked, corner, middle, etc.) affects the results you get.  I measured every change I made and was stunned to see, and then hear, the differences (good and bad) small changes can make.  Good luck!

@keeferdog, @buzz has the answer. And if you don’t feel comfortable using REW right now, even it’s free it’s not trivial to use, start by making a drawing with all the measurements of your room and your speaker placement and send that into GIK and they have a free consulting service.

And if you don’t feel comfortable using REW right now, even it’s free it’s not trivia to use, start by making a drawing with all the measurements of your room and your speaker placement and send that into GIK and they have a free consulting service.

An REW MDAT file would certainly help a lot, but in lieu of that you can get going without it.

Of course, GIK hopes that you will order some bass traps and diffusers from them,  and they have good products, but you’re not obligated to and they certainly will give you good advice.

That size room can work well but it will present challenges.  If you have the means, getting a professional diagnostic will be worth the investment.  GIK or Vicoustic can do this for you.  Wishing you good results.  

My room is somewhat similar (13x14) and have got 11 GIK 244s (some with the wood things on the front - I forget what they're called) and other just bass traps. Two stacked in each front corner, three along the front wall in the middle, two at the 1st/2nd reflection points and two on the ceiling. And since my head is pretty close to the back wall, I took a few unused down comforters and folded them into a box to place behind my head.

I have quite a good selection of speakers and the treatment seems to work pretty well with just about all of them. 

Like others have suggested, I'd just contact GIK and send them a photo of your room and they will make suggestions as to which of their products will more than likely work well for your listening room. I bought my treatments a few years back and the prices were reasonable. The shipping sucked, however. 

@keeferdog 

Unless you look forward to all the time (a lot) and effort with trial and error trying to dial in your room just consult an acoustician. Jeff at HDacoustics is extremely good with smaller rooms  and can design the treatments required for a great sounding room. Also a corner set up like mine might give you the best sound with your room being almost square. Good luck!

keeferdog,
The echo sound when you clap your hands is likely flutter echoes between two hard parallel and untreated surfaces while the weird resonance is likely a room mode.  Treating a room your size is challenging due to its small size.  For example,  the theoretical decay time based on your room dimensions is just over 200ms which is the bottom limit of a generally accepted 200 - 500ms rule of thumb.  You don't want to line your walls with absorption which would lower it further and make listening uncomfortable like a quasi-anechoic chamber.  Instead, you could opt for bass traps of 6" thickness with a wooden facia to help preserve the mids/high frequency decay times to avoid an overly dampened room.  For the sidewalls, use reflective boards on an angle to deal with 1st order reflections from the closest speaker (L speaker->L sidewall) and farthest speaker (R speaker->L sidewall, and vice-versa) to create a quasi-reflection free zone while maintaining mid/high frequency energy.  Behind you in the corners and centre of the back wall place thick absorption panels, and place on either side of the centred panel 2D Skyline or 2D QRD diffusion panels of about 4" - 6" depth in order for you to sit 5-6 feet from them to help kill slap/flutter echoes.  On the front wall place 1D QRD diffusion centred on the wall with bass traps in each front wall corner.  With the bass traps having a wooden facia (See GIK Acoustics for example), sidewalls having angled wooden boards and the backwall a combo of diffusion+absorption that leaves the floor and ceiling to treat.  Place a small wool rug and underpad just large enough to capture the floor 1st order reflection bounce and 2D Skylines for the ceiling.  This combination of reflecton/diffusion/absorption of bass should go a long way towards improving your sound quality.

It'd be good to know what the RT-60 is in the room. A general rule of thumb for hi-fi listening is around 300ms, and fairly even through the frequency band, rising a bit as it goes into the bass. 

Absorption is best applied in multiple smaller panels rather than large single panels. Break large flat wall surfaces into smaller reflective zones. Tall, thin vertical panels with a mix of diffusive and absorptive properties are ideal, as their edges will scatter sound more horizontally than vertically. One goal is to break up the fewer strong reflections into many more weak reflections that are spaced apart, averaging about one per millisecond reaching your ears. So about 300 reflections before it fades below audibility. That will ensure an open and lively sound that is very neutral and low in room coloration.

Hello @keeferdog 

try to call ATS (  Acoustic Panels by ATS Acoustics  )

They help me a lot. I used REW to determine what my room was doing and used that information to help ATS tech support better understand my situation,

If you do NOT have REW, ATS tech support will also help you. I had done 2 rooms, and they were spot on. if you look at my profile pic, you will see the ATS treatments they had advised me to use

Good luck

Don't buy anything until you do analyses on your room dimensions.

https://amcoustics.com/tools/amroc?l=12&w=10&h=9&ft=true&r60=0.6

There is your room in AMROC and it looks pretty good as far as avoiding modes piling up. It also suggests approx 89 sq ft of absorption (Sabines). 

2 inch panels for higher frequencies, 6 inch bass traps or thicker if serious.

REW is your friend.

See this recent thread as well:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/room-analysis-how

You're getting good advice but don't rush to spend money on panels until you understand what you need.

I prefer Acoustimac panels because their backsides are solid ply and it makes it easier to mount onto unusual surfaces.

GIK is a great company as well. Lots of them out in the wild. OC 703 is typical for high frequencies and Rockwool/fiberglass is typical for bass. (not the pink stuff)

GIK has very nice products and they have excellent advice, however I've heard many recommend ATS Acoustics as being as good or better for considerably less. 

In a small room, do not neglect the ceiling between listener and speaker. 

Start with a phone call to GIK and ask for Mike Major, he's great to talk to and will give some great advice.....He'll even help you with the software, and their automated tools for your room. I will buy much of my bits from GIK (I'm building a dedicated audio room), but a few from others as well.....I want wooden diffusers in my build, just haven't decided yet

Stay away from Dennis Foley.

You can make super cheap but super effective treatments yourself. OC 703 or Rockwool with some fabric and 1x4's. But GIK and Vicoustic make quality treatments if you don't want to do it yourself. Also check out SonitusUSA.com. Anthony Grimani is a legend.

When a speaker emits sound waves, they travel to your listening position but also to the ceiling, sides walls and floor, where they are reflected toward the listening position. While these first reflections arrive later and are measurably distinct from the initial signal, they reach our ears too soon for our psychoacoustic system to distinguish them from the initial signal and they become one in our head. What can be lost or overwhelmed by this wave interference are the subtler sounds that can help depict hall size, performer placement, soundstage width and depth, and the music’s overall tonal signature. This is more the "psycho" part of psychoacoustics and is distinct from the later reflections that bounce around the room and result in frequency peaks and nulls that accrue from room modes and the like. These later reflections might also interfere with the initial speaker signal much as first reflections do, but they further screw up the sound as they contribute to a less than smooth room frequency curve and/or cause “ringing”. Treatment at first reflection points helps a lot, but whole room treatment is necessary to deal with these later reflections.

Absorption simply captures these interfering wave reflections and converts them to heat. Diffusion breaks the waves up and reflects them in different directions instead of directly back at you. To better understand diffusion’s role, imagine being in a room and shooting a shotgun directly at a flat wall (no diffusion) versus against a rock wall (diffusion). The return path of the former is predictable and most are flying directly back at you. The latter will have much of the shot going elsewhere and taking a more circuitous route, bouncing off the surfaces of the room and even bumping into other shot before they might return to you. Because they are fewer, have been delayed, and have a lower energy, their return will not bother you as much as if they came flying straight back at you. Similarly, diffusion provides a time delay along with a weaker signal, allowing your psychoacoustic system to ignore or at least differentiate the reflections from the initial signal. Scattering panels work similarly and often are combined with absorption.

At a minimum, you want to avoid "first reflections" and instead have either "first absorption" or diffusion. Opinions are mixed as to which is better. It is probably easier to do absorption with standard home goods/furnishings such as rugs, blankets, curtains, overstuffed couches, etc. Some suggest that books and records have significant absorption properties, but I would argue they are primarily reflective and if there is absorption, it is over an extremely limited frequency range.  Bookshelves, racks, and the like do not give a predictable diffusion pattern. You may be getting different reflections from various media or equipment but they will not have the significant and ordered differences in depth to achieve meaningful diffusion. Neither will a popcorn ceiling nor textured wallpaper. On the other hand, if you wanted to arrange your equipment or books to follow a QRD pattern, you might see some benefit. Also, while too much absorption can be a bad thing as it sucks the reverberant life out of the room, I am not sure there is such a thing as too much diffusion.

If you cannot go full Monty because  of WAF, expense, room layout, etc., at the least put a rug down in front of you, avoid any hard surfaces such as a table between you and the speakers, and hang draperies on your windows and tapestries on your wall at the first reflection points.