I'm going to take a several hour road trip to the Washington DC/Baltimore area to demo some speakers in the $10,000 range for a once in a lifetime purchase. I plan on listening to some Magico A3's, Aerial Acoustic 7T's, and Spendor D-9's. One of the dealers also has Paradigm
Persona 3F's on the floor, so I'll take a listen to them too. While I'm up there are there any other speakers in that price range you'd recommend I try to locate and take a listen to. I'm open to and welcome your suggestions and will take the time to research each one as well.
I'm not in the market for used equipment. Thanks for any and all suggestions.
Twoleftears, thanks for tailoring your recommended audio stores to my location near Roanoke and planned trip north. I couldn't have asked for more. Thank you. I don't think I've come across The JS Audio name before. I'll take a look at their website. I will definitely be visiting the others.
I have utilized both Uptown Audio locations you mentioned both in Roanoke and now Salem . He re-foamed my DQ-10 woofers and fixed my Phase Linear 4000 preamp another time. Did a good job on both. Do you live nearby?
Godnbob, I'm glad to you've had good luck with your used equipment. I honestly don't want to chance of having to need repairs, even though I would love to have $30,000 speakers for $12,000. I've currently ten older Delta woodworking machines I'm needing to restore, ten acres and a good sized house to maintain, and a shop to build. That's overwhelming enough for one guy. I want stereo equipment I know is new and good to go for the next twenty years or so.
Jafant9 I will look up Sounsdscape and the Listening Rooms websites and see what they carry. Thanks.
I know I am repeating myself to the point of obnoxiousness, but...
JS Audio in Bethesda is another of the stores that brought me iPad and asked me what I wanted to hear on Tidal. Young man was very friendly and we had a nice chat. Some time before that, I would say years so it may not matter anymore, the place was kind of snotty.
Tomic60, I’ll look up HiFiBuys in Atlanta website in Atlanta and see what they have. That’s a drive and a half from here as you know though I did round trip it in one day once.
Steve, I’m curious about what you finally did to get the Kef R’s up to snuff. Did you have to buy all new equipment, cables, and the like? Sorry for your dismal experience.
It sounds like I’m really going to have to stay on top of the demoing process at these stores. By being insistent I might be able to wrangle an in-home demo when I’m ready to buy. I’ll check out the possibilities. One drawback to that is I’m going to be replacing my preamp and amp next. Maybe they’d bring an decent integrated amp with them.
Glupson, I certainly don’t need snotty. If I don’t care for someones attitude. I’ll let them know about it. I’m not really the shy retiring type. I think its probably a good idea to see if they would for a potential $10,000 sale, set up the kind of demo I want with a turntable and not outrageously expensive amps etc. A lot of good suggestions here on how to prep for these demos.
I was going to let this thread die a natural death but thought of one more question before I travel to audition some speakers next week. I've been sensibly advised that during speaker demos not to let to let dealers get away with using equipment that is too high end or overly expensive to honestly demo the speakers.
My question is, what would a reasonable ballpark figure be for a integrated amp or preamp/amp combination an audio dealer should use during a demo of $10,000 speakers. I'm only guessing in the $5000 range, but really don't know. I do know what kind of turntable and CD player I will be using already and can gauge that equipment in a demo accordingly.
Again I'm only looking for a ballpark price range on an amp or amp/preamp. to reasonably match the quality of whatever speaker I'm demoing and end up choosing. Price is a crude measure, but I want to ask them to switch theirs out if it's such a high quality component that I wouldn't get a legitimate demo. Hope I'm making sense here. Thanks for any advice and wish me luck.
Even if you can not afford it right now, you shall allow 10K for amplifiers(integrated or pre- power combo) another 10k for front end (digital player or transport and dac combo or turntable) to get the best of 10k speakers.
If other equipment cost more than 10K, then you may ask dealer to scale down below 10K.
I disagree with the OP, though of course understand him. When auditioning good speakers you want to hear everything they are capable of. $100k preamp/amp with $10k speakers is good, generally speaking. But if you want to insist on more balance in terms of cost - yes, at least $10k integrated or preamp/amp. Speakers don't have to be the most expensive component. Electronics is easier to upgrade. Again, in your place I would ask a dealer to bring out the best in the speakers I might consider.
One of the things that is usually impractical to evaluate if you have limited time is, whether or not a speaker will remain relaxing and non-fatiguing over the long run. I’d like to suggest a way to check for this relatively quickly.
Assuming a speaker sounds good on your music when you sit in the sweet spot, in other words it’s obviously a strong contender, try turning up the volume a little louder than normal and walk out of the room. Listen through the open doorway but with no line-of-sight to the speakers.
From the next room, all you can hear is the tonal balance of the reflections and the dynamic contrast. If the speakers’ reflected sound (reverberant field) sounds natural, that tends to correlate well with long-term fatigue-free listening. If the dynamic contrast is also good, you might even experience a decent illusion of live music happening back in the room, outside of your line-of-site. Again, this would tend to predict long-term fatigue-free listening.
When there is a significant spectral discrepancy between the first-arrival sound and the subsequent reflections, that tends to produce listening fatigue over time. Note that live unamplified instruments have no such issues, even a fairly directional instrument like a trumpet. A live trumpet still sounds like a live trumpet from the next room.
This listening-in-another-room (L.I.A.R.) test doesn’t tell the whole story obviously, but ime it tells a part of the story that you may not have time to discover otherwise.
Enjoy The Quest, and very best of luck to you in it.
That's certainly a good idea. I would also add this for in the room listening - turn the volume up and down not too fast. Good system should essentially sound the same and coherent, its character should be unchanged. Then leave it at your preferred listening level. In addition, listen near field as well, and walk around in the room. If you like it from any listening position, including in another room - that's good.
Shkong, thank you, yours is a reasonable suggestion. I'll keep it in mind when shopping for amps too, sometime in the future.
JackD, Good suggestion, Command Performance is actually my first planned stop. Spoke to them only a few days ago. They carry Magico and Focal, both of which I'd like to hear.
Inna, How dare you disagree with me? (just kidding) I suppose there's no reason not to do it both ways, both to hear what the speakers are capable of doing, as well as what I might expect to be hearing at home if I don't win the lottery. I'll do the volumes changes and walk about the listening room when listening as you suggest also. Thanks for your suggestions.
Audiokinesis, thank you for your interesting out of the listening room suggestion to check how natural the reverberant field sounds, which as you say will correlate with possible listener fatigue. I will definitely try that out, and would have never thought of doing so without you suggesting it..
While you are at Command, don't overlook the Neat speakers and Devore. They may not have the more expensive Neat models in the shop, but, that brand is worth exploring.
As to how to audition speakers, I suggest doing a lot of the listening at quite low volume level. It is easy to get juiced when speakers are played at high volume, but, that tends to be deceiving. If you listen at your normal, comfortable level, or even lower volume, and the music sounds flat and uninvolving, you should be concerned with being caught in the trap of looking for more and more power to get satisfying sound. I think this is common problem with a lot of modern, high-end speaker-amp combinations.
Also, set aside a lot of time for your visit to Deja Vu. I doubt that you will encounter another place anything like it anywhere in your travels, so take in everything they have to offer. In particular, listen to the custom-built stuff because it sounds quite different from most modern speakers. The more mundane "regular" brands include Harbeth, ProAc and Audio Note.
+1 on L.I.A.R. Live music, especially with unamplified instruments, always sounds "live" no matter where you sit or stand. If a system can pull that off, then its the optimum match among the components and high quality package. That's my acid test whenever someone asks me over to listen to their system and most systems, even some very expensive ones, can't reproduce that illusion from the adjacent room. Duke speaks the truth.
Thanks for mentioning the Neat speakers Larry. I've never heard of them before. I'll look at them while I'm at Command. I'll make sure I explore normal listening levels as you suggest too. Deja Vu does sound interesting. I'm probably going to have to overnite in DC to take in all these places and speakers. Thanks
Kalali, I will definitely try listening from an adjacent room as you and Duke suggest, even if they think I'm leaving or ducking out. I can probably dig up some live acoustic music to bring along too. I think I might have some old well recorded live acoustic ECM label recordings I could locate. Thanks,
again I am getting fantastic sound with a $3.2 K NAIM integrated driving Vandersteen Treo CT......i am quite sure it would generate Condo eviction levels......ha is it 1.2 KW a side like I have in the reference system?...no but it is fine and very very non fatiguing...
there are a herd of insanely good integrated amps in the $5-10 range...especially used.. Rogue Electrocompiniet VTL ARC Ayre Pass the list goes on and on...
your two highest distortion producers are the transducers....put the $$$$$$ there......
Skyscraper i apologize for the late reply. To answer your question about how I made difficult speakers sound good well I kept bringing in different components and cables. most amps built to a price which at the time was nad, adcom, nak, B&K, all sounded pretty much alike and I could hear a run of nordost wire sounded a little different than my kimber 4tc, but I really didn’t think it was better! way back in the 90’s it wasn’t until I stepped up my game and drove my kef’s with a krell and bi amped did those speakers sound good, But here’s the thing, I demoed those speakers on a HK receiver and they were amazing because that room was dead acoustically. There’s the camp that claims ’all amps sound the same’ and for casual listening with unfamiliar gear that’s probably true, but I found a relative bargain in amplification when I brought home the hegel h360 $6000 to drive my $22,000 speakers and when you’re listening at home you will need an amp that compliments your speakers and a good b&m dealer can help you there
@skyscraper, if you're going to do Gifted Listener, Deja Vu, Evolution Audio and Command Performance, you'll definitely need to overnight somewhere in the area. With those four, you get Vienna Acoustics, Vandersteen, Magnepan, Linn, Audio Note, Harbeth, ProAc, Aerial Acoustics, Dynaudio, Focal, Devote, Neat, Magico, and probably others. That takes time. Throw in IQ Home Entertainment, and you get a couple more.
Inna. I will take you advice to keep within my budget. This money's coming straight out of my life savings so I have to limit myself. There will be no extra $1000 spent. Thanks
Tomic60, I'll keep your list of integrated amp recommendations for further research. I'll have to take a breather for a while after getting the speakers, before purchasing anything else. My new VPI turntable and now speakers is plenty enough to accomplish in one year without being irresponsible. If I win the lottery that will change immediately.
Steve, thanks for relating your story. I was really wanting to hear back from you because I seriously do not want to replicate your dilemma. I'm glad you finally found your solution. I'll look up whether the Hegel amps are still in production, and if so include them in my next round of research.
Twoleftears, those locations are exactly my planned stops. I'm going to plan out my route tonight, find a hotel online, and call up each location I haven't yet, to make sure they have suitable equipment and the correct model speakers set up for demoing. You've obviously made the rounds up there. I was thinking about swinging by Richmond on the way home to check out Audio Art. But that's out of the way and probably overkill unless I'm having too much fun.
Our local dealer in Roanoke, Audiotronics, informed my he is carrying Monitor Audio now and can set up a demo of their PL200 II, so maybe I'll check that out. He's looking to carry Focals as well, so maybe we're moving into audio high end territory down here in the boonies. Thanks again
@skyscraper I've never been to Audio Art, but I exchanged emails a while back. He runs his operation out of his house, and I got the impression that, obviously, he could only stock a fairly limited number of items.
Audio Exchange is the one real store I'm aware of. Sonus Faber, Paradigm Personas, B&W, some other brands. Depends on how much time you have and how many miles you want to drive.
Boonies... All relative. Where I live the one real store dedicated to audio went over to the dark side a year ago=now doing only custom home theatre install.
Twoleftears, good call. It is Audio Exchange on West Broad St. I was thinking of, not Audio Art. As far as the "boonies go, my next door neighbors are cows, so I'm feeling this locale qualifies for that appellation. I love the countryside though, and wouldn't leave it for the world. I left the New York City suburbs as soon as I hit adulthood, and never looked back. At times like this though, when looking for audio equipment, I do miss the trappings of civilization .
Jafant, I'll probably be leaving early Wednesday, unless the weather is too bad. I'll get the trip together tomorrow, with directions to get to each dealer there, a notebook that includes among other things, suggestions provided here for listening at demos, records and CD's to bring along, and making phone calls to each dealer in advance to make sure everything is in order on their end.
I can't tell you how much I appreciate all the suggestions and information you all have provided here. Hope I can return the favor someday.
Calvinj, Evolution Audio carries Revel and I'll be stopping there. I'd like to hear Revel's F228BE if possible, which if I remember correctly, is right at my price point.
Yes, one final recommendation was going to be take plenty of detailed notes of your listening impressions. The sequential experience inevitably puts the ones you hear first at a disadvantage. After 6-8 auditions, what you heard with #1 will start to get hazy...
Calvinj and kalali, wish I had time to track down a copy of Toussaints "Bright Mississsipi’ but I’m leaving early tomorrow to audition speakers. Thanks for the recommend anyway. I’ll try and find it before next years amp buying tour.
Twoleftears, I’m on it with the notes. Good point about earlier speaker demos being at a disadvantage.
By the way Evolution Audio indicated they couldn’t be bothered with "lugging turntables or CD players around the store" for demos. It was streaming or nothing. I let them know they could go with the nothing. Too bad because I would have liked to have heard the Aerial Acoustic 7T’s there, as well as the Paradign Persona 3F’s. I might be able to catch the Paradigms in Richmond and the Monitor Audio’s back home in Roanoke. Amazing how someone will blow off a potential $10,000 sale. All the other dealers were quite gracious in contrast. There’s a lot to be said for good service. Might be able to do the trip in one day now is the silver lining.
Ozzy, the Magico A3’s will likely be at my first stop tomorrow. I’m looking forward to hearing them. The dealer did warn me that orders are back-logged through February,
Jafant, I'll post my results soon as I'm home. Thanks for asking.
Most dealers probably have subscription to some music streaming services so music options are vast unless you specifically ask for a CD source. Good luck and enjoy the ride. As suggested earlier, try to only listen to speakers that are within your budget.
Most dealers probably have subscription to some music streaming services so music options are vast unless you specifically ask for a CD source. Good luck and enjoy the ride. As suggested earlier, try to only listen to speakers that are within your budget.
I expect the speakers we read the most mixed reports about, say persona 3f goes from both ends of the scale some saying it's bright and unlistenable to the best speaker they've heard for the price to mean those are more room dependent ie less colored than other more consistent sounding speakers? that may sound idiotic but I still think you're crazy shelling out $10k for speakers you can't hear in your own room first! the odds speakers you hear at the showroom will sound the same when you get them home is unlikely. again, use local dealers to make a small list, buy used here and of the list the ones that sound right in your room return to buy new! I't will take time but you will know you did it right and a $10 k pair used will cost 1/2 that used so you could home demo the 2nd pair while reselling the first, 'coarse the process will probably take a year or more but for many of us the upgrade path never ends.
I would take a road trip to one of the audio shows around the country. 10K is more then a few dollars. You might as well listen to more then on or two pair.
My first trip to the CES was all planned out. Listen to the speakers that the reviewers suggested. Well that was a bust. Those guys are just like the rest of us, or maybe not.
I did hear some very good speakers but none were on the " list"
Kalali,, you're right about dealers using the music streaming services. But that's not what I was asking for since I don't use streaming myself, instead mostly vinyl records, some CD's. I don't know what happened to the "customer is always right " axiom.
Calvin j, thank you.
Steve59, Thanks for your suggestions, but the the method you suggest while having a lot of merit is impractical for my location and access to dealers. And I honestly don't want to be buying, shipping and selling used equipment for demo purposes at my home, or to be taking a year to do this. Call me crazy or lazy, but I'm not that ambitious. I'd give you credit if you've gone to that extent. My upgrade path ends here too. My DQ 10's lasted me 40+ years. At that rate. That will make me age 106 before needing new speakers again. After upgrading my amp/preamp, I plan on spending money on source material instead of upgrades, until I hit 106 that is.
Jones4music, If I had PeeWee's bicycle I'd pedal that over to the dealers to complete the picture.
Sounsrealaudio, I would llike to take in The upcoming Washinton DC audio show. It would be nice to audition all eleven of the speakers still extant on my list of possibles, all recommend by you all (or youse, as we say in NY.).
Jafant, I promised you an update when I got back, so here it is a truncated, but still long, version.
After a lot of research, I narrowed down my search, from the eleven possible speakers on my "not so short" list. Some were eliminated due to aesthetics, some to being ported designs less favorable to the close to the wall location my listening room requires, some such as the Spendor D9 and Lawrence Audio not being available anywhere close enough, the Revel F228BE's because they are Chinese-made and I'm too leery of the quality control issues endemic to Chinese products of any sort, and the Magnepan's becaus they wouldn't fit or go well in my listening room. I was also disappointed to eliminate the Aerial Acoustic 7T's and Monitor Audi PL200 II's I had hoped to listen to at Evolution Audio before dealing with the aforementioned problem with that dealer's service yesterday. My new short list became the Vandersteen Treo, Devore Gibbon Super 9 , the Magico A3's, and the ProAc D48r.
The Vandersteens Treo's, first up at Gifted Listener, did best on realistically reproducing female vocals. I brought along Chrissie Hind's "Learning to Crawl" Pretender's album to listen to "A Thin Line Between Love and Hate" which I love, and listened to a live Alison Krauss record they had on hand . Both sound full bodied and beautiful. The Treo's were a little light on the bass response. Gerry Mulligan meets Ben Webster's remaster CD sounded wonderful too on the Treos, but the Cannonball Adderly Rudy von Gelder remastered Something Else CD (with Miles Davis as a sideman) sounded so muddy I thought I brought along a poor CD for auditioning. I have to mention the dealer was gracious and helpful at Gifted Listener.
Next stop was Command Performance to listen to the Magico A3 and Devore Gibbon Super 9. Again dealer service was excellent. The Magico A3 did not do as well as the Vandersteen in reproducing Chrissie Hind's voice. She sounded less full-bodied and real, even so far as feeling further back in the track's mix. On the other hand the Cannonball Adderly was outstanding. The instruments were well defined and articulated. The bass (Sam Jones) was crisp and not boomy, and Milles Davis never sounded better. What a difference. Maybe it had something to do with the amp too. I had also brought along an obscure ECM world music recording, Brazilian Egberto Gismonti's "Sol Do Meio Dia, album because ECM records have their own distinctive open, clean sound. That recording also makes the VU meters on my old Phase Linear amp recording jump around wildly. That recording sounded great on all of the speakers demoed, and a $40,000 Focal they let me listen to for fun.
The Devore's sounded more smooth than the Magico's, somewhere between the Treo and them. I also listened to my all time favorite Rock n' Roll album, the Stone's poorly recorded "Let It Bleed". The Magicos revealed it's every fault. Mick Jagger sounded like he was singing with a garbage can over his head. The album sounded poorly on all speakers. On the other hand Los Lobos remastered "Kiko" album's driving "That Train Don't Stop Here Any More" sounded great on all speakers, but particularly riveting on the the Magico A3's. All instruments were crisp, no boomy bass. The midrange had punch.
All in all, I really liked the Magico best. For instrumental music it had the most detailed, well articulated sound at various volumes with a good soundstage. I listen to a lot of 50's jazz, more than vocal music, no offense Aretha, Janis Joplin, Joni Mitchell, Van Morrison, Billie Holiday, Ella Fitzgerald or many others I love to listen to. The Devores had a smoother sound and undoubtedly would lessen listener fatigue. They sounded somewhere between the Magico's and the Vandersteens. The Magico's were so good at revealing each instrument I had to have them.
So I plunked down a check, blew off the ProAc demo in my excitement, and traveled home. Others must like the Magico's too because I've got to wait until February to get them, they are so far back-ordered. Can't wait.
Thank you all so much for your guidance and education on buying these expensive speakers. I could not have done this without all your help and the knowledge you've shared. I had not even heard of most of the speaker's brand names before. You're the best.
Congratulations on a successful trip. I like the approach of not fretting over hearing all of the alternative out there (an impossible task) and simply buying something that pushed all your buttons. Command is a great place to buy something; they will provide you whatever support you need.
Still, I do wonder what you might have thought of the completely different sound you would encounter at Deja Vu. Of course, there sound is far from pleasing everyone's taste, but, a surprising number of listeners find it to be almost a religious experience--they are shocked at how much more they simply enjoy the music. Their sound is not for someone who "analyzes" the sound and looks for extremely deep and tight bass, extended highs, etc.--it is all about connecting musically and uncritically. They get a lot of "wow, I've never heard anything like this" reaction.
Thanks Tomic60. The Magico purchase saved you a trip flying out to Roanoke to set up Vandersteen Treo’s. The Treo’s came in a close second to my ears, and were great recreating vocal performances. Don’t see how anybody could go wrong with them.
Larryi, I’m sorry I missed my planned third stop at Deja Vu. I got so excited after listening to and buying the Majico A3’s I completely forgot my planned stop there. I had a message from them when I got home, so I called them back today and offered my apologies for standing them up after they had set up the ProAc’s for demoing. The good news is I still get excited about audio equipment at age 66. I’ll be sure stop to at Deja Vu next year when I’m auditioning amps, since you’ve made them sound so intriguing.
Congrats skyscraper. I've heard the Magico A3 and although in that audition they weren't my cup of tea, the showed lots of promise and had some stunning sonic qualities. I came away thinking they had to be one of the great current audio bargains.
Like you, I used to go on extensive speaker auditioning journey's. I'm in Canada but would make trips to NYC, Buffalo, sometimes LA. I was insatiable once I was on the hunt.
It's good you managed to find your speaker so quickly. I look forward to your impressions of the A3s once you own them.
You really think @skyscraper they out there to get you? For $200 on a $10,000 purchase? Is it more likely it was a honest clerical mistake? Besides, you paid just a deposit, no?
i am also from Ohio...my recollection is the song aint all that glowing...something about “ parking....spaces”....
funny story.....i was trudging past the reader board for Mershon auditorium on High street and a gal was changing letters to act a new act
she had spelled out The Pre
i asked to solve the puzzle...yes..The Pretenders at Mershon ( small seats like 600, typicality classical, light jazz, ndver Blues, seating staff wear tux’s....my first thought is unpublishable...my second thought a booking mistake...no way !!!! next stop ticket office...max out my student cub scout VISa...ask forgiveness later..
omg did they freaking rock that place band hung out at Agora ballroom across street afterwards....
My apologies fsonicsmith, don’t know what I was thinking. Everybody misspells my last name, O’Neill too, so I’m usually conscientious about that type of thing. I won’t fail you again.
Tomic601, you’re lucky to have seen the Pretenders live. The closest I’ve ever come is listening to a drunken Clyde McPhatter and the Platters sing "Yes, I’m the Great Pretender" on stage at my college at a golden oldies show. I always figured the Pretenders named themselves after that song.
Thanks prof. I was actually quite influenced by your extensive post and reviews of so many speakers in that price range. Your post helped narrow down my search considerably. I read you review of the Magico A3 , Vandersteen and the Devore speakers twice.
I couldn’t get past how well the 50’s jazz selections sounded on the Magico’s. Just the right sonic qualities for my listening taste I suppose. I hope they sound half as good at home, especially until I can upgrade my old, but still functioning Phase Linear 400 amp and 4000 preamp.
Another thing I liked, having nothing to do with sonic qualities, is the Magico A3’s appearance. They seem to be designed to blend in with a decor, not be a jewel in their own right as some are. I’ve antique furniture pieces in the same room and I don’t desire twenty-first century modern design speakers competing with them, or drawing attention to themselves. Instead, blending in as much as possible is the goal. That being said, the A3’s do look good in their own right with a stylish subdued industrial look that should fit in with my other electronics, and provide a pleasing contrast to the mahogany wood in the antiques. We’ll see. My old Dahlquist DQ10’s were admittedly always an eyesore in this room and referred to as "big black holes" on many occasions I did not thoroughly enjoy.
I wish the old Thiels were still being manufactured. Your’s sound wonderful as described. I talked about them with the Vandersteen dealer.
Outstanding! MikeI enjoyed reading about your Speaker trek. You did not miss out on the Aerial 7t model, a few years ago I was sorely disappointed. Turned out to be a great move, as I discovered Thiel Audio. Revel was a disappointment as well. Much Thanks for listing the dealers/retailers visited. There is nothing wrong about citing a poor experience w/ any Audio shop visited. Enjoy the Magico A3. Happy Listening!
Congrats on the Magico A3 purchase. In the next couple of weeks I will be visiting a local dealer to hear them. Based on your experience, it sounds like I need to leave my CC and check book at home!
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