I don’t think being an audio dealer, bricks & mortar or online, is a license to print money these days, so anything they need to try in order to keep the doors open is OK with me. They have to compete with the used market, so it can’t be easy.
Hell, even Spearit Sound who sold open box stuff from some well established names went under. We have to have someone left to sell new product so we can buy it here at 40 or 50% off list price. |
It's reasonable to request a home audition. It's also reasonable for a dealer not to let you walk out the door without covering the risk of you running off with it.
I have a dealer that will put a hold on my CC for the full purchase price of whatever I want to audition. If I run away, he's covered. He also has the power to ding me if I scratch or damage whatever it is I auditioned. This is where trust comes in.
I personally think this is a very fair way to handle things. He gives me a weekend to audition it and if I don't bring it back Monday, the CC gets processed and I own it. If I nick it up, I own it.
I usually give him something as appreciation as I know he doesn't need to take that risk with me, but I've known him for 20 years or more and it works for me. |
Any dealer can charge any price he likes good luck with a cap wishful thinking.
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Audio video Therapy is a great store..... I have purchased several things from them and they are good guys to deal with. They have a great headphone room that i will hopefully be visiting soon |
Mark good on you guys, sounds like a great store
i would say build a relationship not only w store or stores but sales people / owners you trust
next time you are in a high end store just add up the investment in a single room, are tgere color options - consider just silver and black, then rethink your idea of having several dedicated loaner models or even back stock as beyond most dealers ( outside of Dubai ) financial capability....
also, lets be realistic - your $25 k amp is not a Ford Fusion - i bet there are less than 20 dealers in the usa and how many are made per year... stocking a $25 k amp and having a demo is rare ,
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Oh, and for those paying attention: Yes, I am using John's Audiogon account to post...but this is Mark. ;-) |
You know, normally don't ever join in these discussions, but had a customer (I work for AVT in Nashua) mention this thread specifically.
So, first of all we have a home trial policy that includes anything you can drag out of the store (even if it takes two of you) and there is zero charge for it. Because we can't have stuff off the floor forever, we generally try to keep it to 3-4 days trial, but have had situations that have been a week or even longer...those are case by case.
The idea is that by taking our demo units home that you know (before you buy) if the stuff works in your room/home. Plus the demos are all broken-in so we eliminate someone panicking on something new out of the box sounding different than what they heard in our showrooms. The upside for us is that this creates an almost zero returns to the store which are costly, and despite what people may think something we can ill-afford.
As to music and engaging our customers wolf_garcia I think you need to get on our mailing list as we are well-known for all the events we run each year! :-)
First, we sponsor Symphony NH and the primary owner here is on their board as a volunteer. We try to have at least one event at year where we have the soloist or conductor in the store the night of the performance to go over what is going to be played and then we all head over to the performance. To those events we either have free tix or subsidize the price to $10. We had a great treat last year where
Irina Muresanu was guest conductor and guest soloist and while in the store played something she really enjoys playing that was not classical (Cricket Dance by bluegrass legend Mark O'Connor). Hmm...and I'm just realizing I don't think I ever posted that on our Facebook page. Doh. I should do that despite how long after the fact as it was wicked cool. More on FB later below.
Additionally we have at least one free concert a year that we have down the street at the Hunt Memorial Library
(after the first one we crammed into the showroom)
and have used performers were performing at Tupelo Music Hall and took advantage of them being in the area. If you go to our Facebook page there are photo albums and videos of these shows.
Finally, we also have two audio parties at the store a year (Spring and Fall) where we bring in 6-10 manufacturers, set them up in rooms and let people interact, ask questions or whatever they want to do with them (plus there's good food and drink) and just generally have fun! We've had in Michael Kelly, Paul Barton, Vince Bruzzese, and a ton of higher ups from our vendors. Attendance is generally 100-160 people consistently and they show up because we treat it as a reward to our customers, not some kind of time-share sales pitch. We've had two Fall events Halloween-based where staff and customers dressed up! Again, photos on Facebook of all those.
Thank you all for your kind words folks, and FYI as to the above! -Mark |
I've been to AV Therapy (recently) and yeah…they're pretty cool, and do support music here and there…they provide a little discount, no tax, etc. They have a LOT of stuff crammed into that place. I like it. |
Good luck with that it will never be fair find a great dealer and borrow a demo unit.
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Wolf-garcia - you should check out Audio Video Therapy in Nashua, NH. The exact opposite of Goodwins. |
"Audiophile" dealers don't care about promoting their businesses beyond whatever customers they currently have. The only ones left rely on the 'phile community and have seemingly zero interest in expanding by promotion of any kind I can see, or reaching out to any of the great unwashed by maybe promoting house concerts or even meet and greet in-store events (Goodwin's has no email list…they recommend checking their site for news of whatever). They seem to not care about actual music, they often have either (paradoxically) smug or unsophisticated sales people, and although online prices are generally always cheaper, they seem to not be interested in discounting new gear…and they wonder why people buy online. |
It's all about relationships. I have two B&M dealers and one on-line dealer. The on-line dealer offers no in home trials or returns. I also get 15% to 20% of retail from him. Both B&M dealers will let me do in home trials with anything in the store even unopened box inventory. Neither one would charge me a restocking fee if I returned gear based on my dissatisfaction. Of course, I give all three a ton of business so I am a known quantity. My guess is that I would have to pay a restocking fee if I walked into a new place with no buying history.
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Although 85% of audiophiles are genuine and potentially serious buyers, in my experience there is a full 15% that are tire kickers, audiophile nervosa merry-go-rounders, or just individuals unwilling to pay reasonable discount prices. Some are even looking to try out well reviewed new gear in their home, even if unaffordable....and know they're not keeping it before the manufacturer or dealer even approves the home audition. A 15% restocking fee IMHO is reasonable and the only way these non-local sellers (direct manufacturer sales or online or non local dealers) can avoid these individuals and stay solvent. If you don't agree, as said by others, find a local dealer willing to loan his demo unit for a weekend, even if you have to reserve that weekend 4 weeks in advance....have patience or go to shows to audition gear that interests you, or buy used. Let's please remember that dealer cost is usually 55-60% retail for electronics and 50-60% retail for loudspeakers, depending on whether a distributor is involved. Yes, there are some unethical dealers and resellers out there but most are just trying to make a living.
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"Is the equipment then resold as "B" stock? Discounted "B" stock price?"
No, because the maker has certified it as functionally "new".
If cosmetic defects or other issues would remain, I would expect so then.
I just think things are a little different when buying direct from teh maker than via a middleman, which is probably why that seems to be the direction things are heading these days. |
But isn't there a difference when one buys direct from the maker via Internet? If I return something for whatever reason, and the maker tests it out and confirms it functioning like new before reselling? Is the equipment then resold as "B" stock? Discounted "B" stock price? New is new.... Back in the 1970s I bought a new Nak cassette deck from a B&M dealer, paid full price. Factory fresh. Got the thing home took it out of the box hooked it, played with it for a while and then, LOL, sat down to look through the owners manual. To my surprise a salesperson's business card, one of the dealers employees, was stuck between two pages...... . |
Jea,
Makes sense. But isn't there a difference when one buys direct from the maker via Internet? If I return something for whatever reason, and the maker tests it out and confirms it functioning like new before reselling? I could see whatever that costs as being baked into the "restocking fee" I suppose. The actual cost might vary for say speakers versus amp versus DAC, etc. |
03-05-13: Mapman
"Restocking fee" done on a % of sales price does not make sense to me. It cost the same to re-stock a similar sized amp for example whether it costs $500 or $50000.
You are missing the point. The online dealer may be calling the charge a restocking fee, but, if the guy is honest and doesn't try to resale the equipment as new, he is using the fee to offset the cost to resale the unit as used, open box, demo, or what ever the dealer wants to call it. Would you pay $25K for an amp that somebody had in their home before you? Or would you demand a new unopened factory fresh sealed unit? A little background on pricing. The cost a dealer pays most of the time to the manufacture/Distributor for a Hi-end piece of equipment is 60% of the manufactures retail set price. So using your $25K priced Amp the dealer will pay, up front before delivery from the manufacture, $15K + shipping.... I can hear you now.... 40% PROFIT! Well first are you going to pay the dealer $25K for the amp? Maybe things have been slow and the dealer discounts the amp to you 10% off. 30% profit WOW! Well that might be if the dealer is running the business out of his basement of his home and has a full time job doing something else. Even then I would bet the guy has a line of credit with a bank and will borrow the money from the bank + interest to buy the amp. But I doubt that is the case. Would you buy a $25K amp from a guy that operates out of his basement? If the dealer has a store front he has overhead costs. Rent. Utilities. Phone, Yellow page buisness ad. Internet hookup. Advertising costs. Insurance costs. Any employees? Costs, costs, costs... Showroom inventory? ________________________ Deduct overhead costs from the 30% |
"Restocking fee" done on a % of sales price does not make sense to me. It cost the same to re-stock a similar sized amp for example whether it costs $500 or $50000.
The reasonable approach is to have the customer cover the actual or reasonable cost of shipping and handling for an in home eval. Also with an agreement that equipment must be returned in condition clearly identified by the seller up front. That way, expenses incurred are absorbed fairly if all is done as it should be. It's not much different from returning an item to a store, except now there are specific shipping and handing charges that must be addressed. |
Another option for dealers is to specify one or two units that they use specifically for trials only. Charge a 10% fee if the guy does not buy a new unit. If the unit goes out on trial ten times in a year...he's just sold a new unit and he still has his trial unit. Even with a trial unit, he should be able to sell it for 50% off list after he's collected several trial fees off of the unit....and still make a profit. I'm not sure the math adds up. For a dealer to make a living he'd need to move a certain amount of product. So he would either need more than 1 or 2 demo units, or he would need a larger percentage of sales to be sight unseen. And if a unit made 20 trips vis UPS or whatever carrier (10 there, 10 back), I suspect there's a good chance it will be pretty beat up. But I do agree buyers will want to hear the unit first, no doubt. |
Do you think there should be a cap on restocking fees? Say for up to $25k in equipment, the maximum restocking fee is $1,000? Or, say a flat %5 fee across the board with the buyer paying shipping both ways? No! No! No! It seems it would be more profitable just to send equipment out on a trial basis and hope it comes back. No! High risk of damage, misused and possible hassle getting it back. You said it, HOPE! Like they say, when you drive the car off the lot, it depreciates 20% to 30%. Too bad audio gear don't have an odometer. Most companies on the WWW don't stock anything but just take your order and the component is drop ship from the manufacturer. This is the major reason they can sell at a discount with virtually ZERO overhead. What do you think is a fair way or fair fee to let audiophiles try out internet purchases? If used, find a local seller where you can demo before purchase. If new and plan to shop for best price on WWW, attend audio shows. I think one major reason with increasing # of audio shows is to compensate for loss of BM. Depending on price of the component, some companies will deduct the cost of travel to their facility from the purchasing price for a demo. |
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Another option for dealers is to specify one or two units that they use specifically for trials only. Charge a 10% fee if the guy does not buy a new unit. If the unit goes out on trial ten times in a year...he's just sold a new unit and he still has his trial unit. Even with a trial unit, he should be able to sell it for 50% off list after he's collected several trial fees off of the unit....and still make a profit.
The bottom line here is, buyers do want to hear the unit before they buy it. Sellers have to figure out a way to get the unit into the hands of serious buyers.
Right now there is a large contingent of audiophiles that wait a couple of years until the flagship drops to 60% or 70% off of the new asking price...if they like the unit, they keep it. If they don't like it they can easily put it back on the market with little or no loss.
There has to be a middle ground that's equitable where the buyer and seller are protected.
Paying $25k for a new amp to find out that it's not your cuppa tea scares the hell out of me. |
If we think as a seller, restocking fees its a way to protect them. @Wilsynet point makes sense. |
True. It isn't a free trial. But are these being advertised as "free home trials" or just as having "a 30 day return period" etc.? But also not a biggie how they decide to phrase it, unless the buyer is not clear that there is a restocking fee. |
Forgot 15% restocking charge is not a FREE 30 day in home trial by any means. |
I would prefer to take a dealers demo home for a weekend then buy a new peice of equipment for a 30 day in home trial. It takes longer than 30 days for equipment to break in properly. I figure the dealer demo is well broken in and is a true representation of what my system will sound like over time. You cannot underestimate the advantage of a brick and mortar store in the decision making of a good and balanced system. |
It would be fraudulent to sell a returned item as new. Could the dealer lie about it? Sure. But anyone can lie about anything.
Usually I suspect what happens is the dealer sells a returned item as a demo unit. You see a number of dealer ads selling demo items.
Is a 15% restocking fee reasonable versus an arbitrary cap? From the dealer point of view, absolutely. A new $25K preamp will not sell for $24K used or demo. It's going to be much less than that. Oh, say at least 15% less, and probably worse.
If you believe the dealer is above board and would not sell a used item as new, then you should also believe that a percentage based restocking fee is reasonable.
Some dealers and manufacturers have a restocking fee and others don't. If you personally do not want to do business with those that do, well, it's a free country. |
The OP's post is a perfect demonstration of how "audiophiles" are driving audio dealers out of business.
03-02-13: Br3098
Br3098, I assume you mean B&M dealers.... There is only one Hi-End B&M dealer left in my area. His policy, and always has been his policy, you buy it you own it. If you are serious about buying a piece of equipment and want to hear how it sounds in your home, connected to your system, the dealer will allow the customer to take home an in store demo unit for a few days. The dealer asks what do dealers do with a returned item? Resale the item as new? Resale the item as used? I guess a dealer that accepts returns, especially an online dealer, has a returned item section on his web page where buyers can buy returned equipment at a used price..... Surely online dealers don't resale returned equipment as new...... |
I can't agree with Br3098 that this is what is driving audio dealers out of business. The marketplace has certainly changed with the advent of the internet, and dealers are going to have to adjust to that. Many audiophiles are also stuck in a town or city where they cannot audition the gear that they are most interested in locally.
But in response to the OP's question, the return policy and possible restocking fee should be up to a dealer to determine based on the dealers' calculations of the potential financial gain and loss from these policies.
A returned product can no longer be sold as new, so the restocking fee can help the dealer take less of a loss for a returned item. Also, a restocking fee may separate the more likely buyers from gear swappers who just want to try something different out.
On the other hand, other dealers seem to have decided that not having a restocking fee will potentially attract more buyers to their business, and that makes up for the likely higher number of returns from buyers who are only out the cost of shipping. |
The OP's post is a perfect demonstration of how "audiophiles" are driving audio dealers out of business. |
With shipping costs and the real danger of damage when shipped and returned, it is a fools errand. |
A 30 day return home trial offer......
How do you know the amp you are buying "as new" has not been sent out as new before, or a couple of times before you?
In the case of the dealer in question here I would hope any equipment returned would not be resold as new but would be sold as used and discounted the 15% + at least an additional 5% to 10%.
If the dealer is honest about the resale of a returned piece of equipment how does the manufactures warranty work?
Maybe the dealer resales the returned item as a in home demoed unit.....
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