I am currently using a Roksan Kandy MKIII Cd Player. If I got a Rega P25 with a Benz cart, would this set-up give me superior quality over digital in my system?
I guess what I'm trying to say is, Is the P25 on the same level as my Roksan Kandy CDP? Or better?
I would guess that the Rega P25 may be a better table than the Technodek your looking at. I think one of the magiazines reviewed them against each other a year back. Might want to do a search for it if there was one. The Technodek is really considered an entry level table for high end tables. I would think it was equilivent to a Rega P3 2000. But thats just my opinion. I think its retail price is way overpriced. I also think the same thing about the P3 lol
To most vinyl beginners the entry level decks are under $500. But to the high end audio crowd Decks around $1000 is considered entry level. Funny stuff huh? :)
"Stylus drag is an instantaneous slow down of the turntable caused by tracking the record grooves."
Has anyone ever measured this ? The drag of a stylus tracking at 2grams slowing a 10 or 20lb platter (like the Nottingham).
Of course for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, but this sounds a bit like the old physics example of a fly hitting an express train.
If you get the virgin vinyl LP and CD I suggested you'll understand. A good listen is worth a thousand words.
Stylus drag is an instantaneous slow down of the turntable caused by tracking the record grooves. It is very noticeable with fast percussion instruments and loud, complex orchestral passages.
A properly operating turntable should not be affected by this to any great extent. However, there is this tendency to make vinyl sound 'different' from CD and when you go to a store you should bring salsa and/or complex orchestral records and watch the salesman get nervous...
The Nottingham looks good. Look at the belt--see how rubbery it is. Compare that with the Teres' stiff and rigid belt. They are very different approaches. Why is that? Which is better?
Although I have no personal experience with the tecnodec or the P25 those in the know whose opinion I would trust says it is a lateral move.
If you're going to take the trade-in hit better to make a definitive move upward to, for example, a Nottingham Spacedeck, or a Michel Gyrodec.
I have always felt personally that incremental trade-ups are a waste of money, and it is preferable to wait until sufficient funds are accumulated to make a significant step up, or simply decide that it is not possible to justify a big jump.
One more thing from anybody who knows. The Michell Tecnodec, would this be a lateral move for me or would there be improvemnt over the P25 (same unmodded arm -RB600)?
Yes, it would be a lateral move. Main reason is *stylus drag*.
Herman, I am new to all this but over the last 24 hours I have become very well read on the subject because of people like you putting forth your knowledge and advice.
Discussion archives are fantastic and waaaaaaaaaaay important :)
Plinko, after reading all the archives here and at Audioasylum it has been said a few times that the Rega method is different than the Vinyl Engine one, and thus could be off by a small portion. I'm going to a totally different method and trying the Turntablebasics method and I will see what I like best between that or the Rega protractor.
I just got a Nina Simone LP that I'm going to spin. I'll see you guys later and thanks for all the input. I think I'm going to have a lot of fun.
One more thing from anybody who knows. The Michell Tecnodec, would this be a lateral move for me or would there be improvemnt over the P25 (same unmodded arm -RB600)?
Not even a week and I already have the upgrade bug, huh!
You can also try the Rega protractors at vinylengine: [URL=http://www.vinylengine.com/manuals_tonearm_protractors.shtml]vinyl engine Rega protractors[/URL]
Stylinlp, great post, very informative. I see now, what I hear as more detail is also annoying me on CD. Digital has a wider soundstage but also thin and dull. The Vinyl surrounds me more and takes me in even though the soundstage may be a little "less wide" it is deeper.
Herman, This tables was my brothers and he had it for just over a year. I believe the cart is broken-in. I have it sitting on a 2mm spacer. After talking with Rega and Benz they both told me to go with a 2mm spacer. A VTA adjuster is on its way but where I have it now I believe is good enough for a good assement. As far as the alignment I checked it myself and it "seems" spot on with the Rega protractor. Another protractor is on its way. Again where the alignemt is right now I believe is close enough to get a good assesment. You are correct about the LZ II Lp. The CD sounds wayyyyy better than the LP and this is due to Digital remastering of the CD (they did a good job). I did not realize it was a "hot print" and it is hard to get over.
As far as the other Lp's I've tried, in the begining I was being too analytical. I was stuck on the wider soundstage and more resolution to detail on CD but I now realize all though there may be a high hat that is more pronounced it is not however as accurate as on Vinyl. Although the sound seems to have a wider presentation it is thin, dull and "tin can" like sounding when compared to vinyl.
The best way I can describe it is Digital annoyingly forces the frequencies on you where as Vinyl lets you hear the music.
Agent193, listen carefully to Stylinlp's advice. You can't assess the difference between the 2 media on the basis of a few records played on a cartridge that isn't broken in and possibly improperly set up. I don't know about the others but LZ II is not a great recording and therefore not a good tool for analyzing your system.
Everything you described will change as you change the set up and what it is sitting on. You can't just plunk in a new cartridge and have optimal sound. Does the Rega have adjustable VTA? If it does is it properly set? If not the Benz might not be tracking properly. Are the VTF and azimuth optimized?
The difference in detail and resolution you hear could well be the edginess of digital playback vs. a cartridge that is not broken in and needs to be adjusted.
It takes time, money, and a commitment to learn about set up to get vinyl right. Once you do it is clearly the better of the two. IMO Those who say CD is as good as vinyl have never heard a first class analog rig properly set up.
You just have to listen to what you like to listen to. You make the choice. The debate over which medium is better is over for me. I like the sound of vinyl better.
IS it better? Yes, because I like it better.
WHY do I like it better? YOU have to listen to it and eithre agree or not.
Obectively, fly on the wallishly, is that I play many more records than CDs.
I agree Seandtaylor99. It depends. That's why I posted an alternative opinion but yes, I should have stated this. New Vinyl? Yeah, depends on what you listen to. Redone classics cost a lot of money but new music, new vinyl is relatively the same as cd. I bought my Shins and Neutral Milk Hotel vinyl for $10 each. If one is gonna spend $2,000 on a new source and it would put one in a hole for a long time with respect to music purchases, then perhaps one shouldn't be spending $2,000 on anything non necessity.
also, after having heard some players, I don't think you're buying much in going from $1K to $2K (that's a subjective judgement - another no right or wrong here).
Vinyl is tough to get 100% right. Pressing versions, cleaning, setup, cartridge arm matching..etc etc.
Another issue. What your used to hearing. Poeple over on the speaker and cable forums have long discussions on this. Your USED to hearing bright false edgy highs. Thats a given. Musicians and seriuous concert goers on those other forums argue what real life music is suppose to sound like. They go on forever about things like highs and lows depending on where your sitting in the hall vs how the concert was miked. They say that 90% speakers are waaaay too bright. 99% modern music from 80's on up is waaay to bright and compressed.
The thing is. Only vinyl wil give you the true inner detail of the music. You don't see yourself turning up the Sharpness knob on a tv set. Thats a big no no. False sharpness. Makes the image full of artifacts and edgy. Same thing with audio. You have to remember that the music industry makes their music for cars and boomboxs and MP3 headsets. Radio station playback.
When your asking recomendations on buying Tubeamps vs SS amps, Speakers, Cables, etc you will get advice from very experienced fans on this topic. Some people will buy a Paradigm speaker from one addition thinking how great it sounds on the demo floor. Then after living with it for 6 months they get headaches. You see those people trading up to a more correct speaker. As an example.
The best advice anyone here can give you at this time in your audio carreer is this. Kick back and listen to alot of records. Give it a few months. (I dont even know if your cartridge is broken in yet! When that happens its night and day) Listen to alot of differant records and clean them well with good cleaner and vacuum. When you get a hang of what vinyl is about you will start to become more aware what your listening too. Your judgement on what our listening to will be better.
Another example: poeple that are used to listening to fat bloaty mushy bass with basic Monster cables. When they upgrade to some real cables they dislike the lean tight accurate bass they are getting. Its when they listen to that for several months then happen to put back those Monster cables are they blown away. They say "yuck! I can't believe I used to listen to that shit!" :)
One last thing about record pressings. Thats a tough one. Not only are you trying to get this down but you have this to worry about. Its tought figuring out weither your particular record is the good version. Or if its in good condition. The recommendation that you listen to alot of differant records will help you in this aspect. Im allways weeding out my collection and have an eye out for something better. I should put stars on the records I know are the best and make some sort of spread sheet to take along shopping with. lol
I hope this more down to earth advice helps some. Good luck!
Basically, the only thing Digital has over Vinyl is a wider soundstgae and more resolution to detail. Highhats are more pronounced as well as little tiny nuances that I just dont hear with Vinyl.
Dude you also need to get that Ray Barreto album. Get the virgin vinyl LP and CD versions and then report back. At this time what you're hearing is what I despectively call 'analog' sound. The Benz don't have reputation for being good trackers either. So, you are using a deck that lacks proper speed/rotational stability and a poor tracker. Great combo...
Well, I did it, I got everything yesturday. Here are my thoughts:
DIGITAL:- I'm getting a MUCH wider soundstage although thin. I can here a little more detail, instruments are a little more pronounced. Although that can be due to the wider soundstage.
ANALOG:- Vocals sound way better and more natural with a fuller body. I'm getting an incredible warmth in the sound that is surrounding me. My CDP may have a wider soundstage but it doesn't surround me where as the Vinyl does. Also the vinyl seems to have a tiny bit more imediacy.
Basically, the only thing Digital has over Vinyl is a wider soundstgae and more resolution to detail. Highhats are more pronounced as well as little tiny nuances that I just dont hear with Vinyl.
Is this about normal, should CD have more detail and wider but thin soundstage. Are you guys finding this as well. Please speak up, I would greatly appreciate it.
BTW- To do the comparisons I used the same albums that I had both on vinyl and CD:
Micheal Jackson "BAD" Sade Heart "Magic Man" Led Zeppelin II
The equipment is: Rega P25 w/RB600 Benz ACE Medium Trichord Dino and Dino PSU
Please let me know your thoughts on the detail issue
"the idea that you should stick with the cd player if you don't have a vinyl collection is erroneous".
It depends. If you are going to drop $2000 on an LP playback system then that $2000 could seriously upgrade your CD playback, or purchase a lot of new and used CDs. If you have a $1000 CD player then you could upgrade to a $2000 player and have $1000 left over for more CDs.
This is really a personal decision with no right or wrong answer. Personally I would not stray into vinyl if I didn't already have a bunch of LPs. Used vinyl can be quite affordable, but the quality is something of a crapshoot, and you can't always get the titles you want. New vinyl is just way too expensive for me.
LPs are fun, turntables look cool, but I'm really not convinced they offer any significant sonic improvement over a good modern CD player.
The cd player will sound less "open" than the properly setup P25 thereby making the cd sound dull in comparison. Call that distortion or whatever, it just sounds better.
PRAT will be good on the table. Regas excel at this. Better PRAT than a cd player? I might actually agree with what's his name on this one. But it will still sound dull because it will sound boxed in when compared to the P25.
Pitch stability will not be as good as the cd. An aftermarket power supply will work wonders on a P25 and also improve soundstage depth.
Separation of instruments in the soundstage will be more noticeable with the P25.
The lp will be noisier but you likely will find that you don't really listen to this.
All things considered, the P25 will sound better if you have it setup correctly.
Lastly, the idea that you should stick with the cd player if you don't have a vinyl collection is erroneous. Maybe if you're 90 years old, sure. All that matters is if you have used vinyl shops close to you. I started with less than 100 lps.
Rega bashing? Nah...Get Ray Barreto's "Acid" on Fania virgin vinyl LP and CD versions--and find out for yourself. Don't be afraid! "Acid" is a Fania crossover album so you might be able to take it better than *hardcore* salsa. The recording is good enough to do critical comparisons between power cords and Lak can verify this fact. He also liked the album (he's never heard hardcore Barreto...we'll leave it there).
I'd rather listen to CD on my Dan Wright modded belt drive transport than LP on a lesser belt drive. In my system vinyl and CD sound as close to each other as possible. I've achieved this goal by compensating the weaknesses of each format. That will get them closer to the performance.
Digital offers: lower noise floor as a rule, convenience, ability to swap music with friends, no worry about tweaking turntable/cartridge parameters, and access to a vast range of music that will NEVER be available on vinyl.
Vinyl offers: the ability to inexpensively sample a vast array of older music, much of which will never be available on cd, indulgence in a ritual that helps you to remember music is more than background noise in our multi-tasking lives, and that effortless, palpable, organic, flowing musicality you have with vinyl.
If I have the option, I usually prefer vinyl when listening to rock and jazz. The limited dynamic range obscures the more limited signal/noise ratio of vinyl. Yes, there is the occasional exceptional classical lp that is eerily quiet, but no matter how well I dust & vacuum most lp's, there are ticks & pops that intrude on quiet sections. I also find it's easier to immerse yourself in long musical pieces when you aren't getting up every twenty minutes to change sides. On many older rock & jazz recordings, the mastering to cd's is inferior. Many recordings haven't been remastered after engineers began figuring out how to do digital right. Some remasters still are substandard to their original vinyl incarnations, as I was reminded last night listening to Van Halen's first album. Each medium's strenths and weaknesses are on display to varying degrees on every recording.
If you have a collection spend the money, if not upgrade the cdp/cdp power cord/cdp IC. You won't regret it.
My LP12 matches my Wadia 301 in PRaT, but not in any other catagory. Still I'm going to upgrade my TT. Why you ask? Because I have about 700 near mint/mint lps that I've picked up at local garage sales for between free and $1.00 a pop. This is a great way to expand my music collection. At $5.00 a cd used, that would be $3,500. I payed $1,500 for my TT setup. So to me it makes sense.
DIGITAL - Completely silent backgrounds all the time, more crisp at the frequency extremes.
ANALOG - more natural/organic tonality, more inner resolution
dynamics are a wash
No one would complain about surface noise on 95% of my records - essentially silent. If you play clean records on a well setup vinyl front end, surface noise is basicly a non-issue. Some cartridge minimize surface noise better than others. The denon 103 series are excellent in this way.
I personally would rather listen to a well setup Rega 25 than ANY cdp including meitner, dcs, etc. When I listen to vinyl I'm able to get into "the zone" where I don't pay attention to the playback and just enjoy the music. With digital, it doesn't usually happen.
Superior sound? Dunno. Most assuredly it will sound different. However, the Rega arm and Benz cartridge are basically entry level analog. The actual sound may not match your expectations.
I don't think my comment was out of place. And I'm not saying Regas are pitch perfect, because they aren't.
But even if the test you propose makes the Rega sound sluggish compared to the seedee, that is not what you said. You said
>music will sound sluggish and percussion instruments will not sound crisp and fast.<
You didn't say
the music on this record as compared to the seedee
What I'm saying is that sluggish is not how I would describe the Rega. And it is the first time I have ever heard it described as such. You are entitled to your opinion. And I think I remember you as being a Rega basher from posts on the Asylum. No harm, it that's how you perceive it. But my point is you are in the minority with that perception.
Never in my life have I heard any Rega deck described as such. Years ago I had a P25 and that is not the way I heard it at all.
I am sometimes accused of being *laconic* in my responses. Yet when I give a full explanation and direction someone jumps with an out of place comment. Give it a test: buy a Fania All Stars virgin vinyl limited edition salsa LP (from eBay) and then get the same in CD format. Compare...and let the present be the judge--not the past.
Remember, audio grade CD players have perfect pitch. The Regas don't.
Theo, do you find that although Vinyl is more "natural" sounding, is your CDP a little more detailed? I assume a good CDP will always be more detailed, wider soundstage due to the higher resolution? Or am I just talking out of my ars? What would you say are the advantages of your digital front end over your analog, if any?
All I can add is I have a P25 with a Lyra Lydian B and a number of tweeks and I beleive the sound is more natural at the very least than my Linn Ikemi. I enjoy them both but I am stuck on the old "we hear in analog". Since digital is usually analog converted to digital then digital converted back to analog, I think the analog just sounds better. Your P25 is a great place to start do some tweeks. Dis-Claimer: these are just my opinions derived on personnal experience and preference.
Repeat after me: "My name is Elizabeth and I am a Vinyl-holic."
Mind telling us where your "local area" is so we can shop there too? I guess L.A.
That is a lot of vinyl. If each record is 35 minutes long and you listened 4 hours a day it would take you 4 years to listen to every record.
To the original question; a moderately expensive vinyl rig based on the P25 with a comparable cartridge and phono stage will reveal things that even the most expensive CD player can't. However, as pointed out, whether you consider that to be superior is up to you. My vote would be yes. In my experience vinyl is the superior medium if you are willing to spend the time with the requisite maintenance.
Bear in mind that you will need to consider:
1. purchasing a cleaning machine if you intend to purchase used vinyl and it is still good to have with new records, 2. the ongoing debate over which fluid and machine and technique is the best 3. new vinyl is expensive and used vinyl will result in a number of rejects due to imperfections not visible to the eye, 4. for some records there have been a large number of pressings and some sound significantly better than others, 5. you lose the convenience of a remote to change/skip tracks 6. you have to flip the record halfway through the album, 7. you can become obsessive and continuously fret over whether you have optimized all settings such as VTA, tracking force, azimuth, etc. 8. records are much more easily damaged than Cds, there is no error correction for records
I'm using older Exposure gear for pre and Power. The phonostage will likely be the Trichord Dino. I am using PMC LB1 Speakers.
Will this vinyl set-up be sufficient enough to make most vinyl lovers prefer the sound to CD (with my current CDP).
I know there are a lot of people here who prefer the sound of vinyl.
What differences can I axpect to hear between the two formats. I assume CD will still be clearer and maybe a little more detailed. Vinyl maybe a little more organic where a guitar sounds more like a guitar, etc. Am I wrong, wha else?
Better? Not really. With the Rega music will sound sluggish and percussion instruments will not sound crisp and fast. Give it a test: buy a Fania All Stars virgin vinyl limited edition salsa LP (from eBay) and then get the same in CD format. Compare...
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