Reducing Background Noise On Records
@vpi I hate to judge before all the facts are in but it appears YOU not water are the biggest threat to your cartridge. ”Unfortunately, I ran my Clavis with the case removed and while dusting my VPI I hooked a shirtsleeve on the cantilever and snapped it off. My clavis is currently with Soundsmith. I only hope the rebuilt Clavis retains the wonders of the original.” 🤠 |
That’s just great! Another poster from the water turns to steam and destroys the cartridge school. First, water is a coolant. There would be less heat not more. Second, by the time the water turns to steam, assuming it did, which it almost certainly doesn’t, the cartridge would have already passed and steam would not touch the cartridge, the steam would go into the open air. The cartridge would be untouched by the steam. Your theory is all wet. 🤡 |
The Ortofon 2M Blue is the weak spot for sure. It has elliptical stylus and high 5.5 mV output. Flat mids, dull highs and gloomy base from what I experienced. If you want to stick with MM- try good 1000 or 2000 series GoldRing. You will see most of problems will go away. Ultimately go to MC. If need any cartridges- I can help for sure. Greg |
I think part of the answer to your question hinges on your definition of "noise", but here is an additional 2 cents... I got my ultrasonic record cleaner today and it is a bit of a revelation. The majority of my records are in good to excellent shape and had been cleaned with a Nitty Gritty at least once, stored in rice paper sleeves, non smoking household etc. I've just cleaned and played a few older, well-played records and the difference is pretty startling. It's just all around better - quieter, more detailed, etc. I opted for one of the cheaper solutions http://www.cleanervinyl.com/ and you can find other similar solutions or DIY. I'm sold on ultrasonic cleaning and will be busy cleaning records for the foreseeable future. The other great thing about this new cleaner, is that I'm now inspired to go used record shopping knowing that I have a really good way to clean up the records. PS - My front end is of reasonable quality, but not crazy Rega P25 with some slight mods and a Shelter 901. |
I spray the fluid on then immediately use the brush while rotating the record 5 times. I apply moderate pressure on dirtier records. Then I spray on distilled water and use a clean brush again rotating the record 5 times. I do this twice. FYI, my cleaning fluid consists of 75% isopropyl alcohol 91% pure) and 25% distilled water, with a few drops of Fawn dishwasher detergent and Rinse Away rinsing agent. |
I was able to lower surface noise by a pretty large amount by replacing stock VPI Classic feet with GAIA II feet. I thought things were pretty well isolated on a 3" maple block with isolation pads in each corner. Obviously, pops and clicks are still present but the static/rumble type of groove noise was reduced by 10dBs on average (measured a lead-in groove before and after). So isolation can help with perceived background noise. And there are inexpensive ways of isolation if you don't care how it looks. |
You should watch the video below. It is long but quite enlightening. I just installed a Sound Smith cartridge and the surface noise on records that I thought were inherently noisy, all but disappeared. https://youtu.be/F65mODzn4Gk |
@cspiegs, When you have the Yamaha set to phone; but the tonearm is in it's rest do you hear noise? Is it a hiss or a hum? Have you had this issue since you got your TT/cart? Did you have it with a previous set-up? Also, no matter what method one uses to wet clean LPs; the solution does matter. A lot. When I started using a solution of Triton x100, HepaStat, and alcohol my old LPs sounded much better. Better than using commercial solutions and LAST. @mattmiller & @gasbose , Good to hear that GruveGlide does the trick. I am not impressed with LAST and have been looking for a replacement for Sound Guard for decades. As far as phono preamps go, I have gotten pretty "black" background on MM carts with a Schiit Mani ($129) and on MCs with an Emotiva XPS-1 ($180?); but the my integrated is very black to begin with. I've moved up to a Musical Surroundings Phonomena II; but I was not motivated by surface noise. @atmasphere , would you know if any of these have stopping resistors? |
I agree with 'Atmasphere"--also, total inertia of the revolving mass affects noise. My Avid Diva 2 sp (15 lb platter) naturally has a pretty high background noise-only 12 mNm of torque, pretty small. I added Teres Audio 'verus' high torque drive system-somewhere close to 200mNm, and the noise all but disappeared. I later upgraded from a Moon 5.3 phonostage to a Whest ps30rdt-special edition, and the background became BLACK. NO NOISE is not the same as actually hearing BLACK. |
Assuming the cartridge is properly setup (if not get this fixed before anything else), culprits should be a dirty album which is solved by something like the Record Doctor V or similar, hum from your interconnects or dirty power which is harder to fix. I have dirty power and a good power conditioner helps but improving the ground at the circuit breaker and better wiring can be a big help. This could be pricey however. |
@geoffkait - Feel free to amuse yourself. Here’s the link with miscroscope picture evidence: https://www.analogplanet.com/content/dont-let-happen-you And there’s this thread: http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/wet-lp-playback.127223/ And this: https://www.discomusic.com/how-to-clean-vinyl-records#wet-play-records In support of your idea, there is this: https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?t=22360 So, you can take your chances depending on who you wish to believe. Better still, use an old cheap cartridge you don’t care about with an LP that you don’t care about and experiment for yourself. |
It’s not nonsense until the OP defines what type of noise he is hearing. Is it from improper setup of his analogue, or simply tape hiss or surface noise of this medium that he finds objectionable. Maybe he is comparing the noise levels of analogue vs. digital. And we don't know if they are new vinyl pressings or used records. |
Once you have tried all the passive adjustments, tweaks, mats, VTA fine tuning, etc., if you still want to reduce noise, you can start with filters and signal processors like you have done, but they will affect the sound in ways you might not want, even as they reduce noise. If you are referring to the noise like clicks and pops, I can recommend the Sweetvinyl Sugarcube. I am a beta tester for the SC-2 ($3000 list), and it removes abouit 95% of the clicks and pops without altering the underlying signal in any way that I can hear. The SC-1 ($2000 list) will do this as well. However, you should know that removing the clicks and pops makes the record's surface noise (the steady state/rythmic hiss or groove noise) more apparent than without the click and pop filtering. Overall, I still vastly prefer the results of the click and pop filtering, but I was surprised by how much more detail and surface noise are revealed once the clicks and pops are gone. Sweetvinyl has hinted that they are working on additional processing that will reduce surface noise, but this is a complicated algorythm, and may be available in the future, but not free of charge, as a downloadable software upgrade. I think that means it may only be available as an upgrade on the SC-2, since I am not sure the SC-1 has software that can be upgraded via the web. |
Noise and limited dynamic range (and a few other issues) are inherent to the vinyl medium.This statement is inaccurate. LPs generally are mastered with less compression than CDs, for the simple reason that there is no expectation that an LP might be played in a car. This applies to non-CD digital tracks as well. LPs only have limited dynamic range if the label or engineer is being lazy because sometimes it takes some engineering time to sort out how to do a cut properly without compression. Its not inherent in the medium any more than Redbook; although the noise floor is considerably more variable in practice. (FWIW I run an LP mastering operation. Our equipment is fairly stock, Scully lathe with Westerex 3d cutterhead and 1700 electronics. Typically lathe cuts are so quiet that the playback electronics are the noise floor.) I am very used to playing LPs without a tick or pop on the entire side. When people listen to my system they often ask me if I'm actually playing digital while appearing to play LPs since there are no ticks or pops. Here's a tip on ticks and pops: a lot has to do with stability (how likely an oscillation might occur) in the phono preamp. If the preamp is unstable, a tick or pop that would be inaudible because of its short duration or amplitude can become exacerbated by the phono preamp by oscillating briefly. The design issue best I can make out seems to have a lot to do with stopping resistors in the circuit since it has nothing to do with feedback or EQ technique (IOW, preamps that employ active EQ can be just as stable as a preamp using passive EQ). Most inexpensive Japanese designs I've seen don't employ stopping resistors anywhere in their designs and most of them are unstable. A stopping resistor is a series resistance at the input of a transistor or tube and is there to prevent oscillation. They interact with the input capacitance of the active device to create a low pass filter (usually at ultrasonic or radio frequencies). For this reason they can also make the circuit slightly lower noise. So we have an entire generation of audiophiles that grew up thinking ticks and pops and noise are inherent in LP reproduction. One other thing: if the phono preamp is unstable and is otherwise able to work with low output moving coil cartridges, it will be seen that loading of the cartridge is critical to obtain the best sound. This is because LOMC cartridges can inject RF noise into the preamp- imagine what that can do if the preamp is already an unstable design! It is this fact that has given rise to the idea that LOMC cartridges need to be loaded for best response. They do not- the loading is only needed if the preamp is unstable. |
Your records are not noisy because of how they were recorded, unless there is something very unusual about these specific records. I agree. Can you provide more info about your record collection? Are you playing used store-bought vinyl, new vinyl, or records that you played on a previous system? I started buying LP's in the 70s using a middle of the road Dual TT and Shure cart and I they still sound pretty good to me with my upgraded system. I took very good of my vinyl and very few records have noise problems recorded-in from the manufacturer. |
scm islandmandan and terry9 have it right.I don't know if it's inevitable, but I agree that the best path to good LP sound includes an ultrasonic cleaner. No amount of GroovGlide or other goop can substitute for the results you can get from a truly clean record. |
How many of us have left these pages? Reading these responses has left me scratching my head. Azimuth adjustment is the most important of all the cartridge tweaks. Until your azimuth is perfect, everything else is meaningless. cspiegs, start reading past threads about azimuth. Even if you don't have the adjustment on your tonearm, there are numerous 'tricks' you can use. good bye. |
Hello all. Thanks for all your suggestions, there is a lot to consider here. And three noise issue is just with certain recordings which could be how they were recorded/pressed or they are worn. Does anyone think a device like the Burwen DNF 1201A is redundant with my DBX 3BX-DS? Interesting suggestion about the Gruv Glide. When I first collected records 30 years ago, I used a record preservative called Soundguard (similar to another product called Last). There were mixed reviews if it affected music quality. It was more to make records last longer. |
islandmandan and terry9 have it right. If you have a TT you`ll eventually/inevitably end up with an US cleaner....period Has anybody else noticed how many VPI RCMs seem to be popping up on the 'bay ?? Yeah...there`s a reason for that, so either buy one outright or have fun and save a few dollars and put one together yourself. You`ll be listening to records that you thought were hopelessly noisy/unlistenable and you`ll be hearing so much more in records you thought you knew so well. |
I have also used Gruveglide, and it seems to work as advertised. The biggest improvement though, came with building my own Ultrasonic Record Cleaning machine. Fairly easy to build, and inexpensive, at $200 including the Ultrasonic cleaner. If you are interested, look up the design by BBtx at DIY Audio. A complete list of parts and photos are available for free. You really can't go wrong. Best of luck, Dan |
I'll tell you what...You can spend a lot of money on more electronics that add un wanted color to your sound, or you can buy a cheap can of Gruv Glide this spray will kill all static and lowers back round noise greatly. This stuff also protects your stylus from wear. It works! http://gruvglide.com/ Matt M |
@cspiegs, I have the Pro-Ject Debut Carbon Esprit SB with a Ortofon 2M Blue cartridge. I believe it is the same as your setup, with the exception of a built-in speedboat speed control. I don't hear any unusual surface noise from the TT. I do hear a bit of what I consider to be motor noise, but it is minimal and does not affect my enjoyment of listening to LPs on this TT. If the noise in emanating from the TT, I think you may have a setup problem. Since your Yamaha DSP-1A is an early digital HT Processor/Amp, is it possible that the noise you are hearing is not coming from the TT, but is emanating from another location in the processor/amp? How does it sound with other sources, especially analog sources? |
