Raven Blackhawk LE... am I going to be disappointed?
Only reason I ask is because it will be pushing Salk Veracity Ht2-TL’s... Im coming off a Belles Aria, which was fantastic, but wanted to try something different. My concern is the low wattage of the Raven and low sensitivity of the salks, but my Belles 75 watts sounded better than 3 other nice 225 watt integrateds. So, anyone with experience with the Raven Blackhawk LE pushing somewhat low sensitivity speakers chime in and let me know.
@millercarbon Sorry about the word "proselytizing." That word implies that a certain way of doing things is the only best way.
So, would you agree that high efficiency speakers are only one "best" way to go? Or would you agree that moderate efficiency speakers can also be "best"?
I’m pretty sure you’ve spoke about the virtues of Raven, Tekton, and high efficiency in such complimentary terms that you’re pretty committed to it being best. Viz.,
Buying speakers and amps is so easy. Yet it is not so easy some audiophile can't make it darn near impossible. All you do is eliminate from consideration speakers less than 92dB sensitivity. I know nothing about your speakers, except for having heard the name Magic and knowing that means they are crazy expensive and have a well earned reputation for being hard to drive. So without looking I will guess they are somewhere down in the mid to high 80's. [Fact check: 87dB. Tol ya so!] Which in itself is low enough to all by itself be a problem. https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/what-is-floyd-toole-saying-about-extra-amplifier-power-and-he...
It will take you a very, very long time listening to a lot of different stuff to realize this, but amplifier specs simply do not matter. Only one spec matters: speaker sensitivity. Good luck if you buy speakers with less than 92dB sensitivity. Good luck finding an amp. When you read all the problems people have matching speakers and amps first thing you should do is go look up the sensitivity of the speakers they have. Go. Look. You will see. Happens all the time. Guy just the other day took a pass on some very excellent easy to drive speakers, bought some 89dB when could have had 99dB, the ones he got will require TEN TIMES the amplifier power to play the same level.
Good luck with that. Really superb sounding 50 watt amps are all over the place, and are actually affordable. He needs 500 watts. All because he screwed up the one thing that matter about amps, and that is speaker sensitivity. Good luck.
So forget amplifier power. Do this one simple thing right, find speakers that sound good and are at least 92dB sensitivity you will have no problem whatsoever driving them with anything from 20 watts on up. So power ratings, forget em. Why I said they are meaningless. https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/difference-between-amps
These are the kinds of things which are super reasonable and convincing but are they the only "best" way to go? Perhaps I’ve erred and there are other best ways to go and you've posted about those ways, too. But this seems like the idea you are convinced is best, and even the only really good way to go. Happy to hear what an equally good alternative is that does not involve speakers at 92 db and up that does not involve 500wpc
And then there are my ears -- which have found that a number of lower db speakers work with a number of modest watt amps.
Great post!
In the end, we buy what makes sense to us in that given moment, the gear we are able to audition, and our listening preferences. For me, it is a learning process which I suspect will never end -- i.e. I will never be a ’know it all’ believing in ’absolute’ truths like so many on this website. And, frankly, I hope I never become like that.
The point of this hobby is to experiment, learn from your mistakes, admit your mistakes, and most importantly make an emotional connection with the music regardless of the cost, medium, or topology. There never has been, and never will be, one type of speaker or any other equipment that will satisfy everyone.
Some of the posts remind me of the story of the oracle at Delphi and Socrates. I quote ...
"In each case, Socrates affirmed that he would rather be as he is, knowing that he knows nothing, than to be inflated by a false sense of his own great wisdom. Thus, he concludes, he truly is wiser than other men because he does not think he knows what he does not know."
@millercarbon I worked out the math which said I didn’t have enough power. But what I also learned was that there is a much wider range of possibilities than you would accept. There are many reviewers and forum folks have found a lot of success with speakers below 93 or 95 or higher with modest wattage amps which are well designed. You might say they haven't seen the light or don't know how to listen. That doesn't pass the smell test for me.
What I’ve come to learn is that the path you proselytize for -- high sensitivity speakers driven with efficiency by lower or moderate watt amplifiers -- is indeed a very good way to go. But it’s not the only way. And once one is past a certain range of mismatch, synergy wise, a lot of other factors can make for a happy marriage. And then there are my ears -- which have found that a number of lower db speakers work with a number of modest watt amps.
If it does not work out as hoped and you want to keep your speakers, trade-up. If you like Raven, the "Shadow MK" amplifier paired with a really good preamp w/two sets of pre-outs would get the job done! AND you get to keep the lovely sounding Salk speakers. Best of Luck.
Great job b_limo, doing all the right things one step after another not getting distracted by the nonstop string of irrelevant comments.
hilde45, can you explain how you worked through all the math that proves the unsuitability of low sensitivity speakers and then nevertheless came to the conclusion there is no need for high sensitivity speakers? I mean, this is literally a wait, what?!
It’s not just sensitivity but load. Easy load means more mileage out of however many watts. That’s the forte of the not particularly sensitive Fritz that makes them a more viable choice than most stand monitors for use with most tube amps.
I’m still confused about the sub out on the Raven. Would be a show stopper for me as described. Fixed level means sub level is the same at all volumes of the mains regardless of how the sub is adjusted. You want the sub level to go up and down with volume just like the mains. Raven product manual online offers no insight on how the sub output works only the filter adjustment.
Interesting path. You had Carreras and then Salks and the Belles Aria wasn’t doing it so you got a 20 watt tube amp to go with the speakers; but it wasn’t enough power so you’re now getting rid of the speakers to go with the amp? Is that what happened?
At first, I was looking at 20 wpc and 40 wpc tube amps. Not enough. I consider 80 or more tube amps (Octave, Quicksilver, Atmasphere, etc.) but they were too expensive. So I settled at 60 wpc. Preamp and amp for about $4k. Turns out, 60 is fine for my Salks. I drove them recently with 225 wpc and they did not improve overall (they were solid state watts, so better bass but not better midrange, soundstage).
So, choice of speakers, first; amp to match, second.
In your case, I see that you’re seeking synergy by going with a very well regarded amp. I don’t know how the Tektons and the Salks compare in sonic character, quality of parts, looks, etc. That would have been a comparison to make early on with an amp that could drive both of them, ideally. But you are where you are, and good luck!
I really do not see the need for such sensitive speakers. It’s one kind of synergy but there’s so much testimony about other synergies that work equally well, listener-relative, of course.
As a parting comment -- which I expect people to disagree with -- I don’t see the choice of a tube amp in this price range to be all that critical. I see the speaker choice as much more important. I mean, couldn’t one get a number of really good tube amps in this price range to do justice to a speaker in the 87 db and up range? Could it really be that hard? (Looking new or used, might a match not be found among Aric, Cary, Modwright, Octave, Quicksilver, Supratek, Raven, Rogue, Prima Luna, et al.?)
"I was really curious what 95+db speakers were like so I borrowed a pair of whatever klipsch’s... RF3’s? He picked them up for $200... they mopped the floor with the salks and they are not even close to the same level as the Salks, so it was the sensitivity / synergy that was doing it for me." Did you try using the Belles Aria with those speakers?
Ok, understood. Why not use the sub in a traditional hookup with the low-pass crossover? The mid bass driver on the mains is going to present better SQ than a subwoofer driver. Set the crossover on the sub and use it for the lowest octaves.
{On the back are an ungrounded AC socket, RCA line-level inputs and high-pass (80 Hz, 6 dB/octave) outputs, Volume control, Low-Pass crossover control (40 Hz - 120 Hz, 12 dB/octave initially, 48 dB/octave ultimately), Crossover in/out switch, Phase toggle (00 or 1800), Subsonic selection (20 Hz or 35 Hz), and a remote sensor switch.}
Unless I am misunderstanding, the sub out on the amp is a high pass xover just to remove the low frequencies from the main speaker. You would still control the volume of the sub with the control on the sub. You actually wouldn’t want that output to be variable.
95+dB is really the place to be. But I get flack for even saying 92. That to me is rock bottom. As I suspect you are now really beginning to understand why. Your Raven is an absolutely fantastic amp, but one rendered out of bounds and unsuitable simply by the shortsighted decision to buy inefficient speakers.
That one move dooms and limits you forevermore to a hundred watts, minimum. Even then it is almost impossible to get the kind of effortless speed and dynamics you are going to be hearing, in spades, with Double Impacts.
But think of it, that Raven/Tekton combination is only about $6k! Which if instead your speakers were a typical 89dB could easily be 3X the money and still not get there! Not in SPL, not in quality. The typical 89dB speaker requires nearly ten times the power to do what your 98dB DI will do. People really should do the math. 20 watts and 98dB speakers, or 200 watts and 88dB. Which do you suppose you can buy higher quality with $3k? 200 watts? Or 20?
Then with the money you save not having to buy hundreds of watts you buy Pods, Podiums, turntable- now you are in heaven!
They might sound good enough, but too much potential left on the table. This summed it up. It sounded really good and better than the belles aria. It would push right up to the aria in output / dynamics. Maybe 90% I was really curious what 95+db speakers were like so I borrowed a pair of whatever klipsch’s... RF3’s? He picked them up for $200... they mopped the floor with the salks and they are not even close to the same level as the Salks, so it was the sensitivity / synergy that was doing it for me.
I have some Double Impacts lined up! Hopefully tomorrow.
Im currently using a single Velodyne HGS10. May add a pair of DD10’s this week as well.
had a good time rolling tubes today. Learned that I have some pretty nice tubes. Some amperex from holland and japan. Some raytheon black plates. Another really awesome pair I forget right now.
anyways, the salks sounded good but like was mentioned, there was too much left on the table. I get Klipsch now with tubes. I bet a nice pair of klipsch’s, a nice tube amp and a vinyl setup is pretty cool
Do not change to KT150s without doing a bunch of research on this tube type. I thought, for my garage system , that the extra power of the KT120s was worth the slight loss of humanity. I have never used KT150s, but have heard a number of users as well as manufacturers that dont like this tube.
To sound their best, the KT150 tube needs to be utilized in an amplifier and circuit designed with higher plate voltage and hefty transformers.
Sounds completely different in my current amps specifically designed and built to run KT150s properly. Gotta hear the difference to understand and appreciate it.
IMO @b_limo is making an excellent decision. Raven will be a good match with high sensitivity speakers. This was the exact advice given by many a few days ago -- i.e. Salks not being a good match with Raven. They might sound good enough, but too much potential left on the table.
FWIW, I heard the Raven Audio Celest' speakers being driven by an Osprey at James' house, and it was a fabulous match. If I were to go down that path, I would definitely keep the Celest' in my top 3 choices.
Perhaps the most difficult task when seeking useful information on a forum such as this, to use the cliche, is trying to"separate the wheat from the chaff." Rather than risk being flagged. I’ll leave it at that. Except to say that I think @oldhvymec has it figured out. :)
@b_limo didn’t you have the Fritz Carerra at one point prior to Salk? Those might have been winners with the 20 watt Raven due to easy load. Would like to hear that combo. Oh well trying new things is half the fun so more power to you.
@b_limo so what was the final assessment of the 20 watt Raven with the Salks? What was lacking? It went from sounds good and loud enough to Salks for sale pretty quickly. Not a great match on paper so not shocked but would like to know your thoughts.
Pair that Raven up with Moab, you will not believe. Not even. Seriously. Your amp is way better than mine, and if you heard mine you would freak. When I say way better, talking with Dave Thompson it turns out he had my same amp. He said nice little amp, nothing wrong with it, sounds real good. But it sounds flat and dull next to a Raven. So there you go.
LoL, just kidding! So Im jamming out to some borrowed cheapo pair of Klipsh’s right now... 97db-100db sensitivity...
The Salks are listed for sale now and are awesome speakers, Im just onto a different route now. High efficiency speakers #1, analogue source coming up..
The Blackhawk uses 6L6GC power tubes , be interesting what answer you get from Raven about using KT88s or 150s in their place since they are not direct replacements for a 6L6 tube.
Yeah I'll bet the U.S. is the only country with forums that suffer these types of problems.
Do not change to KT150s without doing a bunch of research on this tube type. I thought, for my garage system , that the extra power of the KT120s was worth the slight loss of humanity. I have never used KT150s, but have heard a number of users as well as manufacturers that dont like this tube.
That does sound strange if the sub output level is truly fixed and not variable. Too bad if so in that the built in high pass filter to the mains for use with a sub sounds like a nice feature to use with a sub.
@b_limo So you came back over to the dark side, good for you :) A friend in common shared the news about your incoming Raven. I was about to send you a note to say this, just saw your reply and was about to share thoughts like 1) it will sound very nice, and 2) and won’t go super loud or dynamic. Seems you’ve discovered this already. Your 4-6ohm 88db Salks will definitely benefit from more power IF you still like to listen to music loud. If not, may require getting use to listening at lower levels. Tip: make sure you are in love with the Raven amp before parting with your Salks for other more efficient speakers. Dave at Raven needs to get with the program and build some affordable KT88 60-80w monos for speakers like yours. Enjoy the tube listening again!
Thanks for sharing your experience! Good info for many, as I am considering the move to a tube integrated myself. I hope the sub-out vs. volume control has a reasonable solution.
Haven’t really followed the thread for a few days... looks like it took a turn,
Anyways, still enjoying the Raven. I do wish it had more power but thats available, just costs more money. The sound quality is fantastic and Im having a ball with rolling tubes and learning what sounds like what. I bought this amp used and it came with a bunch of tubes. All of them are decent if not good. Anyways, I am really satisfied with the sound quality. It really is just awesome. @Millercarbon, if the sub out isn’t variable, there is no way to adjust it seperate from the Ravens volume control unless another preamp is used before the raven...
are you trying to tell me that the integrated raven amp needs an additional pre amp in order to be able to adjust the volume of the speakers and sub together?
not having a variable outlut for a subwoofer is pointless and I’ve never come across or heard of such a thing. Are you telling me that I have to adjust the volume of the sub sverytime time I adjust the volume on the Raven? Thats stupid. You still don’t get it...
She’s just funnin’ with everyone. Soon she’ll get bored and go back to her room and play with her coveted Barbie doll collection!!
Probably not meant to offend anyone other than the person they are responding to, but the irony is incredible. Long-time members were just pondering a week or two about why there aren't more women participating on this site, yet go on like this, or the thread the other day about whisky and waking up with women in Mexico. Then we'll start over next weekend wondering why this or that person doesn't feel comfortable here.
Seems that one of my posts yesterday (now removed) was a bit too strongly worded for some people, or they didn't realize some of the interactions in the thread.
I was defending another member that was being attacked for providing reasonable input, and did not appear to be offensive (maybe I missed something). Sad part is that I was dragged through the mud by people that didn't connect the dots first to understand things.
I have always found very helpful information on this site, and appreciate that people are willing to take the time to share their experiences, knowledge, etc. The members that do this are helping far more people than they know; I wonder how many people read/research/learn here versus post.
Sad that people from other countries come to this site for info and have to see the carnage in some of these threads. Makes no sense that some people are unable to disagree without being rude... but I guess it's not that simple when you consider things like mental health issues, personality disorders, etc. Or maybe someone is just having a bad day? But the repeat offenders... they are not in a good light, just low EQ and unaware of themselves in social situations. Some people actually don't know when they cross the line; completely unaware of it. The ones doing it on purpose are just plain sad.
@carpathian have no idea what you are talking about old man. So is having 2200 posts on this site a status symbol. You must think very highly of yourself. Hardly think maturity comes with age old boy reading the posts in this forum. I only get a sense of arrogance and narcissism.
What’s up with you constantly calling everyone old? Not just on this thread but on another as well. 11 whole posts and 3 of them are mocking people for being older. You think being older is something to be ashamed of? With age, there predominantly comes maturity. Perhaps it’s something you should strive for as you get older.
Listen you can always find an amp which may be better than other amps that cost 2 to 3 times much. But this is more a reflection on the amp which is bettered than the amp which is up for discussion. If you buy wisely, the more expensive amp will always outperform the less expensive amp which should come as no surprise. Further, I object to the notion that all S.S. and tube amps share the same intrinsic sound. The beauty of tube designs is the overall comparative simplicity, but they also suffer problems one of which a current versus voltage issue. I also think that transformers are limiting devices which do their job effectively but not without a sonic cost.
@willgolf -- I want to (re) emphasize that the Raven Blackhawk is an excellent tube amp in the sub $5k category. I also readily admit that in my case, it’s my speakers that are not a good match. It is not my intent to knock on the product. I do, in fact, plan to replace the amp with something which is going to be a better match for my speakers. I was almost sold on trying an SS amp like Naim Supernait 3 or Hegel H390, but my friend’s experience with Qualiton is making me wonder if I should try a more powerful class A tube amp before giving up on the idea. I’m going to take my time to find the right one.
My previous posts were a reaction to the misperceptions that have been perpetuated on this site for far too long -- (a) Blackhawk is better than amps costing twice, even thrice, as much, and (b) Blackhawk’s 20 watts are better than 100 SS watts. In my experience, this is simply not true.
arafit "A friend of mine recently switched from Blackhawk MK3 to Qualiton A50i. According to him, there is no comparison. The Qualiton is at an entirely different level".
Your post intrigued me. You are right there is no comparison. Class A vs A/B....more power and over double the cost. So, I would expect it to be better. It probably is a great integrated tube amp under $10k. What is the OPS budget to drive his Sonus Fabers?
IMO, there is no game changing integrated tube amp under $3.9k. Raven is a great product and I owned a Raven Reflection. Can any sub $4k tube amp drive the SF's? I think they can. I also had my Raven Reflection drive SF Amati Tradition Homage speakers with ease. But then again, The Reflection provides much more power.
I guess I am a bit more adventurous with audio. If I buy a component and I feel it does not work well with my system, I sell it and move on. Even if there is a restocking fee, Raven gives you a 45 day trial. That in itself is worth the trial. You would only lose shipping costs.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
