Easily the best photography of any Raven I have seen. Now I know what Dave and willgolf are talking about. Just beautiful! They are huge though. That alone gives me pause. If only it was a Shadow. I'd be all over it.
Raven Blackhawk LE... am I going to be disappointed?
Only reason I ask is because it will be pushing Salk Veracity Ht2-TL’s... Im coming off a Belles Aria, which was fantastic, but wanted to try something different. My concern is the low wattage of the Raven and low sensitivity of the salks, but my Belles 75 watts sounded better than 3 other nice 225 watt integrateds.
So, anyone with experience with the Raven Blackhawk LE pushing somewhat low sensitivity speakers chime in and let me know.
So, anyone with experience with the Raven Blackhawk LE pushing somewhat low sensitivity speakers chime in and let me know.
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For anyone interested in what appears to be a screaming deal there is an updated pair of $26K Raven Audio Sillhouette Reference mono block amplifiers for sale on US Audio Mart for $6,750. Local pick up San Rafael only. No affilitation to seller. Raven Audio Silhouette Reference Mono Tube Amplifiers MK2.1 (Pair) - KT88/6550C For Sale - US Audio Mart |
@b_limo -- I placed an order for the Qualiton A50i yesterday. The retail price is $8000/black and $8500/silver. Most dealers will discount it by 10%, but from what I understand the margins are fairly thin to begin with so you will have to negotiate for something better. If you're interested, take a look at Qualiton X200 ... https://audiohungary.com/product/x200/19 This one is probably in the sweet spot in terms of power, versatility, and price. I have no doubt it will drive even relatively low efficiency speakers nicely. |
Lol @twoleftears , those look pretty saweet! How much them bad boys? https://audiohungary.com/product/a50i/11 |
Heres a link to the tweeters, or similar to what tekton uses. i should add that he does offer a be upgrade but when cost of tweeter goes from$65 to $300, and you use 7 per speaker, things get pricey. I think a moab with Seas excels all the way through would be awesome. Also, it needs to look better. Kind of ikea level as opposed to fine furniture. |
@hilde45, the tweeters used in many of tektons speakers are a soft dome sb acoustics tweeter, probably $50. The other drivers are probably in the $30-$100 range. Fritz and Salk use drivers that are more in the $120-$350 price range. with all that in mind though, enclosures and crossovers as well as design play huge roles. I’ve had too many speakers to count and totem arros were real eye openers and used maybe $100 worth of drivers in total. However, I’ve never heard a seas excel driver that didn’t sound smooth as butter. With high end drivers, at worst you’ll get a speaker that sounds decent. |
To clarify, I do believe the Kinki. Is functioning normal. The issues are really the whole front circuit board that attaches the 2 knobs and front display are all very loose. 1/4 - 1/2 of play on the knobs up and down and in and out. Back bottom left corner is nicked which is nuts because its 1/4 thick... anyhow, this was a used unit in pristine shape. Seller is awesome and now someone I consider to be my friend. Old timer in the game and he knows just about everyone. Fritz and he are good friends and I consider Fritz a good friend as well. Not to always plug Fritz’s speakers, but they are awesome. Buy a pair if you are looking and on the fence. Salk is great as well but more expensive and longer wait times. Frit’z veneer work is on par if not better than Salk. Sorry to digress but yes, the Kinki is just awesome. I really liked my Belles Aria and Raven as well but the Kinki is more in line with the upgrade I was looking for. The things internals are just gorgeous. I have never personally owned an amp with a better layout internally. Very simple, straightforward, no bs layout with really nice stuff in there. Reminds me of the Arias internals only multiplied by 2. no complaints with the kinki. Hopefully I can recoup some money from fed ex, fix the kinki myself and keep it. Anyone considering a kinki...if the sound profile fits your desires, grab one. The build quality is awesome, its jewelry to look at (only surpassed by rowland in my opinion, not talking triangle art or whatever). |
@b_limo When you get the damage issues resolved with FedEx I think you will really enjoy the M1. I am using an M1+ in one system and a Supratek Chardonnay and an EX-M7 in another. Both are great amps with similar sound. Both of my units came last summer and don't really remember who delivered them but I thought it was DHL and both units arrived in pristine condition. If you bought factory direct have you reached out to Ken or Alvin? |
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Got the Kinki EX-M1 in my system yesterday. Friggin fed ex smashed the crap out of it. Filed a claim, we’ll see what happens. Unit is working properly, I believe. Ran hot today but its hot here and Im pushing my speakers pretty hard for 4 hours now... both knobs on the front are loose / smashed inwards. I can’t believe how fed dx treats our equipment. Ludicrous. Sounds pretty special though. The imaging, separation within the soundstage, image depth and width, black background, zero distortion, detail, pretty amazing. The bass is stupid, the mids and voices just float eerily in space, and the highs are there but not offensive. The Raven on TMR is the one I had. I bought it from them. Great sounding amp but with the sub out issue and cosmetic issues, I didn’t want that to be my most expensive purchase ever, so I opted to buy a pristine Kinki and then have Fed Ex drag it behind the truck for 1500 miles |
That sub out thing with the Blackhawk is strange. Would like to hear from the vendor if that is by design or something else. Agree I would not want a unit designed with a fixed level output to a sub. That sounds like design flaw which makes me wonder. WIth that out put and the high pass filter feature, sounds like they tried to make the amp integrate flexibly with subs out of the box by design but failed due to that.There is a video where Dave questions this feature with James ???? https://youtu.be/Gcd76DZmbdY |
The nice thing about QS Silver 88s is you can run a variety of output tubes in them. With my QS Mono 120s I’m limited to KT150s or KT120s, higher plate voltages. With really good tubes and upgraded coupling caps, the 88s can hold their own against many tube amps at 2x the price. Not your super fast super dynamic snappy amps with high damping factor some people crave. Best to stay with solid state amps for that. All mono KT88 tube goodness for sure with these :) |
@b_limo [N.B., @decooney] Here’s your chance to be done, maybe: https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649748784-quicksilver-audio-silver-88-mono-block-amplifiers/ |
I’m glad you decided to keep the Salks after all. I wanted to say this earlier, but didn’t want to offend anyone ... the Salks are world class speakers, both in terms of sound quality and build/aesthetics. The other brand you were considering, not so much. Apologies if someone is offended. In the end, you should buy the speakers that appeal to you, and not sacrifice great speakers at the altar of flea watt tube amps. Also, I mentioned earlier that the sub out feature on Raven amps is more of a gimmick. I tried it with REL T9i and T/Zero. Not only did the amp not sound any better/powerful when using the dedicated sub out, using REL's high level connection was a clear winner every time. Raven makes very good amps that compete quite well in its respective price category, but the sub out feature should not be the reason to buy them. |
Good choice, @b_limo but I'm biased. I don't think the Tektons are in the same league as Salks, and the Raven was clearly not going to power them. Start with speakers, then get amp to match is good advice. Be curious to hear about your new amp. Salk is working with McGary amps, but they are very pricey.... https://parttimeaudiophile.com/2019/11/14/mcgary-audio-salk-sound-anticables-exogal-caf-2019/ |
That sub out thing with the Blackhawk is strange. Would like to hear from the vendor if that is by design or something else. Agree I would not want a unit designed with a fixed level output to a sub. That sounds like design flaw which makes me wonder. WIth that out put and the high pass filter feature, sounds like they tried to make the amp integrate flexibly with subs out of the box by design but failed due to that. Tektons after beautifully crafted Salks? I don’t think I could do it but you never know what might float one’s boat. |
@b_limo Im keeping the salks thankfully. I think I would have been disappointed with the finish and drivers on the tektons. I more than likely would have liked the sound but... Good for you and smart move. Maybe its time for some worthy mono tube or ss amps with a good tube preamp to make those Salks sing properly. Check with JS he was testing different tube amps last time I corresponded with him. |
No tektons, raven went back. Not sure why a sub out would be fixed and not variable... anyhow, if it the sub out was variable and the raven had the crossover, i would have kept it. Im keeping the salks thankfully. I think I would have been disappointed with the finish and drivers on the tektons. I more than likely would have liked the sound but... anyhow, I have a kinki studio exm1 (latest iteration) coming on sunday. |
I always thought efficiency and sensitivity were different. And they are! http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-efficiency.htm |
I power washed my deck, waited a few days for it to dry sufficiently, and today I applied a coat of beautiful semi-transparent, natural cedar, oil-based stain. Approximately 36 hours from now I’m going to do some serious victory laps of my own. Meanwhile, my 86db Sonus Faber stand mounts are sounding wonderful powered by a surprisingly robust Chinese SET integrated. I had the windows open and was rocking an average of 88db’s according to my Radio Shack meter. Sure helped make the deck work a lot more pleasant. YMMV |
Yes it’s easier with high efficiency speakers because your choices will be limited. Not necessarily better but a different way to roll. The facts speak for themselves. High efficiency speakers are a niche for a reason. That is because to be efficient and full range they have to be large and often expensive, things most do not want these days. Also Tekton is not really high efficiency though more efficient than many. Klipsch heritage line designed a long time ago when only tube amps were available are. There are others but again very large and very expensive. So really the “high efficiency” solution being pitched is not even high efficiency compared to others that are like the Avantgardes of the world. More like somewhat higher efficiency. Which is fine if that fits the bill. Add a sub and crossover like with many and no problem. |
Sorry about the word "proselytizing." That word implies that a certain way of doing things is the only best way. Apology accepted. Especially since I get it now. Lots of people use words they don’t understand, thinking they mean one thing when really they mean another. Proselytizing is nothing to do with being the best, it is trying to convert one to a way of thinking, to which I plead guilty. But with religious connotations that implies belief, to which I emphatically say no way. My reasons are logical, and sensible, and that is that. So, would you agree that high efficiency speakers are only one "best" way to go? Again, this is about an approach, not any particular set of speakers. Said many times what I think about certain speakers. But it helps to not confuse the issues. The big long sections you quoted should be required reading, but there is nothing in any of it saying anything at all about how they sound, let alone what is "best". The issue I am addressing is nothing to do with any one particular speaker- or amp, for that matter. Instead of specifics I am talking about an overall or over-arching approach. Never said you or anyone cannot build a beautiful satisfying and excellent sounding system with 87dB or whatever speakers. Simply said you are making it unnecessarily hard on yourself to take that approach. This is the furthest thing from controversial. Sure it ruffles some feathers when people see themselves in my comments. Too bad. Follow the proselytization, come around, live the good life. It is so much easier you won’t believe. |
Its definitely a preference kinda thing. I much prefer lower sensitivity speakers in the 90-93db range when paired with the right tube amplifier(s). It can be a more forgiving and less forced type of sound. Did the low-watt triode thing with 95+ db efficient (shouty) speakers. An entirely different type of presentation if that’s what you are in to. People with low-watt amps tend to rotate a lot of speakers. |
My personal recipe for good sound is based on speakers first. No secret I am a fan of wide dispersion speakers particularly omnidirectional speakers like mbl. In my case, the key ingredient is still the Ohm Walsh speakers that are designed to work well for omnis in most peoples actual rooms. So I build around that. I use high power high current Class D amps that do the job of driving Ohms to the nth degree. Throwing the kitchen sink amp-wise at speakers is much more practical and cost effective these days with advances in amplifier (not speaker) efficiency, mainly Class D. CLass D and Ohms are a match many have found to be heaven made. High efficiency amp technology takes one in a totally different direction than high efficiency speakers. It’s the wave of the future. It allows amp and speakers to be smaller and hence work better for more. Whereas large full range high efficiency speakers are the opposite, although as mentioned powered subs that almost always apply Class D amplifier technology these days helps even out the battlefield. Of course most Class D amps have very high Damping factor that can make many smaller speakers tend to sound thinner or dry than tube amps which typically have low Damping factor. So not all will take to the sound in all cases. Just like anything else. Though I do also run a pair of small Kef ls50 metas (also measured as having very good dispersion for a box design) off the same CLass D amps as my big Ohms with the 12" main Walsh driver and the sound is to die for, especially with CLass D powered sub added. |
Well it seems like B is enjoying the journey including the various detours along the way so that is all that matters. Yes as anyone with eyes and ears will learn over time there are many ways to skin the cat, each with their associated advantages and disadvantages. Do note though that high efficiency alone does NOT, repeat NOT, assure optimum performance with any amp. It only means things are most likely to be loud enough with most any amp in most any room in peoples homes. Reviews of high efficiency speakers with measurements have shown that high efficiency speakers are subject to the same kinds of load issues at various frequencies as low efficiency speakers to the extent that tonality can vary significantly still amp to amp. So it may pay to be aware that high efficiency alone does NOT assure optimal performance as designed. An easy load still matters. You can have the ability to go loud and still never have the desire to actually do it. Some may simply have no need...more modest volumes may suffice. Also, good quality full range high efficiency speakers tend to be large and expensive. There are much fewer options to choose from. That is a big downside for those to whom it might matter. But, if you filter the bass from the mains and use a sub to carry the load, that effectively makes you speakers MORE efficient than they were otherwise because producing flat and extended bass response is where most of the work is. So a properly implemented crossover and sub greatly increases the choices for speakers to use with a lower power amp ....in fact most any speaker might be made to work well with a 20 watt soft clipping tube amp if enough of the work producing flat extended bass is offloaded elsewhere. Even in the best case though, listening at levels > than mid 80s SPL regularly is scientifically proven to be bad for your hearing over time so best to avoid that as much as possible. Also as always, of course YMMV. It pays to be aware of these things (efficiency, load/impedance/phase measurements at various frequencies) when matching speakers to amps in order to get to a synergistic combo faster and more cost effectively. These are specifications/measurements that truly matter, but of course you still never know for sure exactly what will float one’s boat exactly for sure until you try. While good performance can be predicted, good sound is largely always still in the ear of the listener. That part of it is very hard to quantify. Good specs/measurements merely helps assure that more people will be able to achieve some degree of optimal performance faster and easier and along with that chances go up that the sound will be deemed "good" by more. Of course price alone can often be the best spec/indicator to predict what people will think sounds good. People are funny that way....but its true. |