Questions about Ethernet Cabling
PLEASE READ: This is not a thread about the merits or demerits of audiophile-grade ethernet cables, or any cable for that matter. If you don’t believe in spending extra on expensive cables, I respect your opinion but please don’t turn this into a point of contention.
So before I ask my questions, let me describe how internet connectivity is setup in my house:
- [Home office/study] The modem (AT&T), router (Google Nest/Mesh), and switch ($25 TP-link basic switch) are located in the home office/study. I also have a second system in this room as well as other stuff connected through the switch. In other words, I can’t move the switch to another room.
- [Media room] The main audio system is located in the media room which is in the diagonally opposite side of the house (single story). This room has the ENO ethernet filter connected to the Innuous Zenith MK3 streamer, and so on.
[Long ethernet cable] A very long run of ethernet cable (CAT 6/over 100 foot) runs from the [Home office/study] router and terminates into the [Media room] ethernet jack/wall plate. This was done by the builder and it runs through the attic.
- [Media room] From the [Media room] ethernet wall plate, I then use another 6 foot ethernet cable (also CAT 6) that goes into an ENO filter and then on to the Innuos Zenith MK3 streamer.
So here are my questions:
1. Is it worth upgrading only the so-called last-mile ethernet cable, i.e. the one between the [Media room] ethernet wall plate and Eno filter while I continue using the long CAT 6 cable [Study >> Media room]? It is going to be difficult, if not impossible, to replace the long-run CAT 6 cable as it goes through the attic where several spots are not reachable without tearing down some sheetrock.
2. Is it worth adding a second audiophile-grade switch (e.g. uptone) in the media room while leaving the one in the study as is? Or is it better to upgrade the switch in the study first and place the cheaper switch in the media room? Or do I need to replace both switches (not prefered as it adds to the cost)?
not everybody likes the Lumin sound and operating system and the choice of fiber-only servers/dacs at the moment is still limited. Also, not all networks are fiber-optics and for those still coming off copper the optical converters and their PSUs open another can of worms. On short cable runs, the superiority of fibre is also more debatable, but in the long run the market will turn your way
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I've also thought about tradeoffs of coax vs ethernet in front of modem. I'm using an extra 20' more coax than what I could minimally use. Its that or using 20' ethernet for that run. With cost of ethernet I presently run coax is no brainer, figure the 50' or so of coax already coming from provider box to indoor placement will dominate either way.
I mentioned this in another thread, but the switch I tried was RenoLabs Ultimate. I dismantled switch and circuit board, not the Buffalo board used in many lower priced so called audiophile switches. This one probably on similar quality plane, built in LPS using quality parts, clock built on proprietary board. This not some crap pile of parts. Based on what I heard, switch was doing it's job exactly as intended. I simply didn't like the extreme precision of sound stage, images too well defined in space.
IME, network optimization post server has been more effective. The very minor lowered noise floor of switch wasn't worth the tradeoff of poorer sound stage, imaging. I know I'm not alone in finding various audiophile and non-audiophile switches being detrimental to sound qualilty. Having said that, I do use all AQ Vodka prior to server and NAS, router powered by over spec'd (more than minimal amperage supply) LPS. |
I will share that with my DirectStream DAC + Bridge 2, going from an all copper ethernet connection directly to my router to going with TP Link optical converters on both sides and a long optical run, including using linear power supplies for the optical converters, router and modem, made a notable improvement with blacker background and more nuanced sound. Now that I've purchased a Holo May DAC and am using Roon for streaming, it seems like the USB is the best way to feed this DAC for streaming, and given that the Optical Rendu does both USB and Roon, it seems like the way to go. I already have the optical cable and plenty of linear power supplies, but my TP: Link isn't the right one (need single speed gigabit). I'm looking for advice for serving up the optical to the Rendu. Get a different converter, or get a switch with a built in optical outlet? If possible, please provide a model or link to your recommendation, and why. Thanks, Peter |
I am not advocating for anyone to buy a Lumin DAC. In fact, I do not even consider it due to price. My max price for a DAC is $3k. My point on the Lumin is that I believe that their solution for streaming with the X1 SFP is the best. I base this on my experience with streaming using the Sonore OpticalRendu. I believe what I use, while the best I have owned, is inferior to the Lumin X1 streaming. In the future, I wish all DACs had the SFP so I can eliminate the OpticalRendu. BTW - in my office I have the following switch. It hooks up my computer, TV, and other devices, including the Sonore OpticalRendu to my DAC. I have 2 of these streamers for 2 DACs. In the future, with a SFP compatible DAC I can eliminate the OpticalRendu and just plug my fibre cable to the DAC from this switch. Amazon.com: Ubiquiti Networks Networks UniFi Switch 8-Port 150 Watts, White : Electronics (price seems to have gone up since I bought it) |
@peter_s tp link mc200cm won't work?
Based on my research and experience I'd have to say audiophile switches hit and miss, can't recall a single negative experience with FMC.
As far as server/dac/streamer vs streamer dacs vs discrete components. I have trifield meter, measures RFI. The worst offenders, in order are routers/wifi, NAS, all transformers. Think about the all in one with wifi capability and internal storage, maximum noise producer, next will be streamer dac, at least one with wifi capability, best is all discrete. Careful placement of these discreet components will pay off, and provisions for shielding. Certainly, manufacturers of these components take some measures to decrease internal noise, but the amount of RFI I'm measuring makes it impossible to eliminate it. Only a farraday cage around individual sections would come close or improve upon discrete solution.
I understand with discrete components noise has possibility of entry with ethernet cables, reason for fiber, added switching power supplies, reason for LPS. The other downside of course is added complexity, mess of cables. In final analysis, essentially what you have is diy vs off the shelf solution, the problem with comparisons of sound quality is diy is bespoke, likely a singularly unique setup. These solutions should not be dismissed as inferior without hearing any particular setup. Audiophilestyle forum has been my go to for streaming solutions. |
@sns1 - That might work, but I am having trouble interpreting specs. The recommendations for the optical rendu state that the unit should be Gigabit: a. 1000base-SX (10/100/1000 base units are not supported only use 1000 base) Looking at the tp-link website specs for the mc200cm, it states "10/100/1000Mbps Auto-Negotiation RJ45 port supporting Auto-MDI/MDIX" but it also states that it supports Network Media 1000BASE-SX (fiber) and 1000BASE-T (copper). The second statement suggests that it should work. |
I have an Innuos Statement and as I understand essentially has a Phoenix built in. Adding an ER was beneficial, as was then adding a SOtM ngh10. I agree the EE 8Switch was not as profound as the ER or SOtM but I keep it in the chain as does help. Point is I found more is better than just one switch. I essentially have four. I have a Mutec REF10 clocking the ER and SOtM, it lowers the noise floor significantly. I tried fiber between the SOtM and EE with a variety of Finisar's and felt it added digital haze in my system. I am not convinced the sfp's are not noisy. I would like to see someone develop an audiophile grade sfp, it seems to me there is a lot going on in that itsy bitsy sfp changing a digital signal to optical and then back. The sfp's were built for data just like most switches.
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totally agree on the importance of clocking, also and particularly on the Etherregen. One other tweak worth mentioning: inserting an Acoustic Revive RLT-1 Ethernet terminator into the second RJ45 removed quite a bit of edginess from my Zenith MK3 to where now ethernet actually is at least on a par with ripped CDs and the resolution gain from higher resolution formats on Qobus is very audible |
I wanted to provide a quick update ... I received the Supra Cat8 ethernet cable a couple of days ago, and tried a few different configurations. The best config that I settled on is something like this ... Media Room >> Wall jack >> Supra Cat 8 >> Cheap router (with ifi power supply) >> Network Acoustics ethernet cable >> Eno filter >> Network Acoustics ethernet cable (short) >> Zenith MK3 >> Silnote Epirus Elite Master USB cable >> Luxman DA-06 FWIW, the Supra Cat 8 is clearly better in my system compared to the generic Cat 6 I was using earlier. I know this is going to rile up some folks, but I hear what I hear. The changes are subtle but the Supra Cat 8 has clearly reduced the noise floor, and removed the tiny bit of digital harshness that existed before. Thanks @lalitk for the suggestion. But I must say the star of the show is Eno. I tried to remove it from the chain and it's one of those things that you don't know what you're missing until you remove it from the chain. It provides a blacker background and does a great job of getting digital a few steps closer to vinyl. I thought my system was pretty decent to begin with, but Eno + Supra Cat 8 + Innuos Zenith has really elevated the performance to new levels. I think I'm done for 2021 :) |
Great article in Absolute Sound about adding Fiber Optical connectivity to your system: https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/how-to-optimize-digital-streaming-with-optical-fiber General suggestions I have implemented and found to improve system reproduction quality: Use fiber connections whenever possible. I have a fiber network backbone connectivity from my network cable modem through the rest of my system’s switches. This is an inexpensive upgrade which increases network performance and money better spent than on add-on products such as noise filters. Use high quality network switches such as a Cisco SG-350-28 or Catalyst 1000. These are managed switches and thus require some networking savvy to implement. I use the Cisco SG-350-28 28 port switches which can accommodate four fiber connections per switch as well as 24 RJ45 Ethernet connections. The Cisco Catalyst 1000 series which I have also used require more advanced Cisco knowledge and so unless you know what you are doing, the SG-350 web management interface is much better. Cost per switch is under $500 per unit. Using the management interface, you can see what is going on with the network and can show things such as high error rates which would be a key performance indicator. I have found that high quality cables such as Blue Jeans cable Cat 6 or 6a, which come with a sheet actually documenting their performance with an HP cable tester, to be more than adequate. An Ethernet connection in my experience from your switch to your DAC/Streamer is preferred to USB. If possible, connect mesh routers together with Ethernet cable or fiber backhaul runs for best performance.
I found that the Small Green Computer Fiber to Copper OPTICALMODULE DELUXE with their 7V LINEAR POWER SUPPLY works very well feeding my Mytek Manhattan II DAC. Focus on building a better network before trying to fine tune with add-on accessories and you MAY find that they are not required. |
I'm curious why connecting 'mesh routers together with ethernet cable' vs. the ethernet cable directly from my router in the study is going to provide improvements. Can you elaborate on this point if you don't mind? BTW, I use a Google Nest Wifi mesh system and tried it in my media room, but I didn't feel it provided any improvement, so I went back to regular ethernet the way it was. I agree with you about the benefits of fiber optics, but as I said earlier, given the over 200 foot distance and other reasons, it is not feasible to run a long fiber cable at the moment. But that is something I might consider down the line for sure. Also, I own an SGC opticalModule Deluxe that I'n using with my opticalRendu in my study. This setup used to be in the media room before I got the Innuos Zenith MK3 and Eno filter. Initially, I didn't feel that the Zenith + Eno combo was better than opticalRendu. But I kid you not, after putting over 50 hours on the Zenith, it has far surpassed the opticalRendu. My main system has never sounded this good.
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@timo62 -- the PhoenixNET switch definitely sounds very interesting. It's a little pricey but if you consider the alternative, i.e. the jumbled mess of wires and boxes, it's actually not a bad deal, and not really that much more expensive considering everything else. What gives me pause is that there is a dearth of reviews and feedback from actual owners. Of course, you have your usual professionally written reviews but that's neither here nor there. I've been doing some research ... okay, what I really mean is asking a lot of people whose opinions I trust ... and I'm of the opinion that I'm better off putting my money towards a DAC which has a really good built-in clock and employs better isolation techniques before I invest in an external switch like Phoenix. In the meantime, I might try a cheaper alternative like EtherRegen to see if it makes a difference. But to be honest, my current configuration (Supra Cat8 >> Eno >> Zenith >> DAC) is sounding splendid! I don't think my system has ever sounded this good. I'll probably just enjoy what I have for the time being. |
Nice system! I need to clarify as I may have caused confusion on this point. I meant that from the main mesh router and/or it's switch connect the mesh satellites using a star wiring topology configuration so that each satellite mesh router is connected or backhauled via hard wired vs. wirelessly.to the main mesh router. A significant and measurable uptick in bandwidth will occur as well as stability improvements. I did not mean to daisy-chain each mesh router together. Note this configuration may need to be updated via the router's admin page although some mesh systems may auto sense and use hardwired Ethernet when connecting to their satellites vs. wirelessly. For more detailed info on Ethernet backhaul connections, see: What Is Wired Ethernet Backhaul And Why Is It Better? – Family Electronics |
@arafiq , I would imagine the Innuos PhoenixNet switch along with the Innuos Phoenix reclocker would go well with your Zenith. I agree that it would be pricey and there are probably less expensive ways to improve streaming SQ. Seems like for now, you just need to obtain an Ethernet Switch that you would be happy with and you might be very happy. I agree that there is not much information from personal owners of the Innuos PhoenixNet switch comparing it to other switches.
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FWIW: I had to investigate this ethernet switch business for myself so I picked up 2 gigabit switches on Amazon, $14- 8 TP-Link TL-SG125, $176- Cisco cbs110-24T. My router is a TP AC1900 which has it’s own gigabit ports. Ethernet cable is Supra CAT8. Modem/router/switches all plug into a Monster HTS1600….end result after 2 days of listening. Absolutely nothing. Zero difference to my ears. Note: I don’t have a LPS on hand for the TP-Link and the Cisco has a built in PS so I can’t say if that makes or breaks this test. Nevertheless, everything goes back tomorrow…thanks to Prime this experiment cost me nothing and saved me what would have been well over a grand had I jumped into the audiophile ethernet switch rabbit hole. |
@jl1ny Some will tell you those two switches not audiophile quality, therefore, your results not valid in regard to true audiophile switch.
In my case, I was told my audiophile switch inferior, I need to move to $3k switch. So, what switch is objectively best? And will that switch always result in better sq in every system. Until those questions can be answered, I'll assume any particular audiophile switch may or may not be of benefit in my unique streaming setup, or anyone's for that matter. |
@sns Ahh, yes audiophile quality…the thought did cross my mind but no such luck finding one on Amazon Prime. Just for fun if I can find one with a home trial/full refund I’d give it a go. Looking forward, I’m really interested to see what Elon Musk’s StarLink will bring to the table. |
I have been there done that, by far the most important Ethernet cable is from the Ethernet switch to server, or streamer , 2 nd from the modem to router. that being said the Uptone Audio Ether Regen -Hub totally cleans the dirty signal coming in to your home if you think it’s pure coming in ,Think Again !! theEther Regen has 4 inputs and 1 output going into your main computer source. Wire world does make a 10 meter star light only about $650 with discounts.$750 retail that my friend put in for the long run ,and it it did improve the sound further but to a far lesser extent then from the hub to server, or modem to router. the New Wireworld Platinum 8; is a great cable to the server , and star light from modem to router . |
“ I had to investigate this ethernet switch business for myself so I picked up 2 gigabit switches on Amazon, $14- 8 TP-Link TL-SG125, $176- Cisco cbs110-24T. My router is a TP AC1900 which has it’s own gigabit ports. Ethernet cable is Supra CAT8. Modem/router/switches all plug into a Monster HTS1600….end result after 2 days of listening. Absolutely nothing. Zero difference to my ears. ” I couldn’t help but ask you to clarify, what were you trying to accomplish with switches that are not optimized for streaming data for audio? My experience with a NETGEAR 5-Port Gigabit Ethernet switch - $26 with iFi SilentPower iPower2 wall wart resulted in actual sound degradation. The test was conducted with ENO filter w/EE8 switch vs ENO filter w/Netgear. The down line components were EMM Labs DA2 and Aurender N20. Optimizing home network is only one part of the equation, the rest of the down line components must also be competent (resolving) enough to yield improvements made upstream. |
@lalitk Honestly I’m more than a little skeptical about what a switch optimized for audio is exactly. It’s my understanding that a switch cannot differentiate the data passing through it so how could a device be optimized for audio if the data being transmitted is not specific? I just can’t wrap my head around how a device is supposed to effect something that doesn’t exist? Nevertheless, the point of my experiment was to see if adding an external switch into my network would produce ANY audible difference (good or bad) to the sound of my rig. I came up empty. Perhaps my attempt was half assed, as I mentioned I’d be willing to explore further. |
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I’m interested in the optical cable. I have ordered a modded Cisco 2960 switch from AudioPhool in The Netherlands. Hadn’t noticed the 2960 has optical. Not wanting include an EtherRegen.
Thinking out loud: How then do you change optical back to ethernet cable to go into my streamer? |
@jerrybj What is the company called please? I like the sound of this. |
Just was poking around regarding different or upgraded clocks in switches, and noticed this on the Uptone Etherregen website: Extreme usage with an External Reference Clock: The Crystek CCHD-575 oscillator used in the EtherREGEN is one of the lowest phase-noise production crystal oscillators (XO) available. [Sorry, but the $50~$100 OCXOs we see tossed into stock switches do not outperform the Crystek at low-offsets where it counts; Manufacturers have to spend $500 and up to obtain OCXO clocks with significantly lower phase-noise than the Crystek we use.] |
Good to know. I have ordered an Etherregen and waiting for its delivery so I am not there yet. This was in response to the company above who will take your switch (Cisco) and wire in an upgraded clock for 375 euro. The point above is stating it may not be better than the $30 clock in the etherregen. Now I haven't listened to either of these switches, and it is clear the upgraded Cisco switch should sound better than the stock Cisco switch, but based on Swenson's engineering experience explained above, I find it hard to believe it will best the etherregen. After all, the "cheap" clock isn't the only part doing good in the etherregen. Transparency wise, It is to be noted that Uptone specifies what they use, whereas other companies it is not so explicit what clock they are using. But sure, big spending for the clock in the quality required, whether Antelope, Mutek which is many multiples of the price of the etherregen I would hope would improve the sonics. There must be a reason Esoteric and DCS have $15000-30000 clocks. I am going to do myself a favour and not listen to these :) Maybe Uptone's next product will be a $2000-$3000 super-etherregen, with an upgraded clock and other bits? But in your experience, clock first or upgraded power supply first for the ER? |
As John Swenson says, the power supply improvement moving to an LPS is small but audible,,weirdly dependent on the power cable.The better clock makes a significant difference, here again the quality of the BNC cable has a large impact. What puzzles me is that in another forum from Asia people swear by multiple clocked switches in series or even multiple Etherregens. Ours is a strange hobby, indeed
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