@yyzsantabarbara, please read my post above :-)

@yyzsantabarbara

To reiterate a bit.

I had a Lumin T2 and ungraded to a Lumin X1 (found used on Agon…..who would have thought?) and perhaps because of purchase bias or maybe for real I thought the sound ticked up a bit.

Then I upgraded the PSU cable to the X1. That was a definite improvement. Golly!

Next I put in the EitherREGEN (and AfterDark goodies clock & PSU ....prices in Hong Kong dollars ) making use of the optical into the X1 (the non optical sound has a different flavor that’s great too, really) and cleaning/filtering the signal was the most significant positive change change ever. BAM

I’ll never know but had I cleaned up the ethernet signal into the streamer/DAC I’m not sure that I would have changed streamers.

A lot of info here too in another discussion.

Hello.....connect a PC to the Ethernet and get a free Speed Test App from your ISP or other. Anything near 20mbps should do it.

I work for Broadcom as a senior software engineer and deal with this stuff almost daily.

As long as your ethernet wire is rated for the correct bit rate and length, and you do not live in an extremely noisy (electrically) environment like a factory floor, there is ABSOLUTELY NO BENEFIT in spending any more on exaggerated and false claims on audiophile data wires.

If you can use fiber optic, even better. But the standard cat5, cat6 or higher wires are also perfectly fine too.

@cakyol You are are not answering my question about analog noise. I am a Senior Software Eng with 30 years of exp too and that does not give me any extra insight into this question. An Electrical Engineer or Scientist should know more about the technical reasons.

I am going by hands on experience where Fibre optical cable was way better than Ethernet, with everything else being the same in my system Now some of that difference could be due to the improvement of the insides of my OpticalRendu vs the microRendu. That is why someone with an Lumin X1 is really the best person to answer this question from a hands on experience perspective They have both the RJ45 and SFP inputs on their DAC.

Your comment about Ethernet vs Fibre being realatively the same could be true in a network that is not very nosiy. My reading on noise leads me to believe that power supplies connected to network devices such as swtiches, routers, DACs. streamers, etc.. add noise. Esepecially switch mode power supplies. A computer connected to a network adds noise. I have about 10 computers in my home office and a PowerLine network too. That must make for some noisy Ethernet wires if what I am reading is true.

In my assumed very noisy network adding the Fibre was a tramsformational change. The Ethernet streaming with the microRendu was good but the Fibre was incredible. I still use a crappy computer to run my ROON CORE as ROON suggests.

@yyzsantabarbara 

"I still use a crappy computer to run my ROON CORE as ROON suggests."

I did that too and finally got a Roon nucleus & a Sbooster PSU. That worked.

In its simplest explanation, analog noise does not matter in digital modulation techniques. They are mostly filtered out simply by the clever modulation methods. All the system needs to do is be able to distinguish between a one and a zero. It is worse in wifi (read about 256 or 1024 QAM). Furthermore, error correction techniques like Viterbi decoding and convolıtional codes take care of most errors without even you knowing about it.

There is obviously a limit. If you detonate a nuclear device, the EMP pulse cannot be filtered out but in 99% of homes and even noisy factories, this is not the case 😄. 

@cakyol I understand the 1 and 0’s in streaming, inclduing wifi. The issue I raise is the power supplies and other noisy elements that people say (I am a believer) add noise to an Ethernet network and that noise propagates up to the network connected DAC. If you think this is not an important issue then your statement need no further explanation.

If the Ethernet noise issue I raise is real then the idea of using a noise optimized music server (such as the ROON Nucleus mentioned above), EtherRegen, audiophile switches, and other noise limiting gear makes sense. My question is why not use fibre at the last point before the DAC and not worry about the noise before the fibre.

When one asks why fibre works you can also question other aspects of the network that maybe trying to do the same thing as fibre.

@yyzsantabarbara,

I acknowledge your concern regarding power supplies but 99% of network switches and bridges use a walwart as a power supply which is pretty far away from where the analog circuits are (usually). The noise transmitted is at worst negligible, at best undetectable.. unless you place your DAC converters right next to the PSU, which most of time is not the case.

And obviously, if fibre is available, it is best to use it in the entirety of the connections if possible to do so.

As I mentioned earlier, this thread is not about debating whether ethernet cables, or any other cables for that matter, are effective or not. I don’t necessarily disagree with the explanations provided above, but I’ve also learned that there are things we just don’t know how to measure or account for yet. I was a power cord and speaker cable denier for the longest time. One day, I actually tried - yeah, imagine the audacity of actually trying something, a nice speaker cable and haven’t looked back since then. The same ’zeroes are zeroes and ones are ones’ arguments are thrown around when describing DACs, and therefore a $200 DAC is no better than a $5k one. But of course, people who actually have heard the better DACs in appropriately high end systems can tell the difference. But that has never stopped the naysayers.

If we were to follow the ASR type of reasoning based solely on measurements, we could argue that there was absolutely no sound on earth before we developed the ability to measure it. People only communicated using hand gestures. That’s obviously not true. Just because we can’t meausure something doesn’t necessarily imply a lack of existence.

Secondly, we ran an experiment at a friend’s house using different ethernet cables and both of us were able to discern a difference. It was subtle but noticeable. Now you can argue it was implicit bias at work ... so what? It’s a hobby, not a science project for most of us. We're not solving world hunger or curing cancer here. If WE can hear a difference, whether measurable or not, whether perceived or real, that’s all that matters.

@arafiq,

lovely post. It sort of raises the question whether what you measure is an accurate reflection of reality, doesn't it? Flat earthers, anybody?

This is what I'd consider state of art streaming. Fiber network provider >fiber capable router or switch> fiber capable server> fiber capable streaming dac.

Fiber op. conversion was easily one of the best upgrades to my network, audiophile switch prior to server not nearly as effective as FMC's after. In my case, audiophile switch gone, prefer router. Now, I would still like to upgrade network prior to server, issue is I would need two optical outputs, one to server, one to NAS. This would entail four more FMC, four more LPS to power those FMC. If I only needed one out, I'd have already done the fiber prior to server.

I do hope fiber capable routers/switches, servers  and streaming dacs become common in future. Sure be nice to rid myself of usb decrapifiers,  FMC and all their attendant lps. I doubt fiber internet provider coming any time soon to me. suburban areas not first in line for this.

Upgrade the last mile, use plenum rated and outdoor rated cat 7e or better. run through ductwork. done this in houses, office buildings and factories.

@sns -- totally agree with you. Both @yyzsantabarbara and I have tried the opticalRendu and can attest to the benefits that fiber brings to the table. Just like @yyzsantabarbara I too am stumped as to why there are so few companies offering fiber optic-based solutions in the market. I mean if Sonore can do it in a reasonably priced package, why can't other companies do the same.

@arafiq Most people are not ready for fibre yet. This stuff is pretty complicated for a lot of people. I helped someone setup a streaming system for an audio show recently and they had no idea about all the parts needed. Nor should they have to as a consumer. 

I think Sonore products are a stop gap for me. The Sonore stuff we have is doing a conversion to USB and also has the LPS in close proximity to the DAC. What I want is the SFP in the DAC itself like the Lumin X1 (so no USB). I just am not willing to spend Lumin X1 money on a DAC. I want the $1500 - $3000 DACs to have SFP just like they currently have Ethernet and USB. Some smart guy or gal will build such a module that the future DACs will incorporate.

Career networking dude here (Skywalker sound, Lucas Labs, Pixxar, ILM, etc.)   Beware of techno nonsense, which among audiophiles seems to be a primary strategy for separating customers from their money. 

Noise on Ethernet cables.  I agree with the CCNP guy who commented earlier.  Unless, you are designing Ethernet signal processing/encoding silicon, you don't need to worry about it.  It's not an analog signal, so what you're worried about doesn't work that way.  The asterisk to this is a residential technology called PowerLine, and that's a hard no for audiophiles.   

Cable type.  Do you run 40GigE in your house?  Neither do I.  Decisions about cabling are based on the speed of Ethernet you want to support as well as distance.  You can google a chart on it, but cat6 will generally support 1GigE, cat6a will support 10GigE and cat8 can do up to 40GigE.  Please do make sure when running cables to make sure you are not violating fire codes when running through, for example, plenum spaces.  

As far as 'audiophile switch', hang onto your wallet.  Residential audio applications are low bandwidth applications that do not require a commercial grade router or switch. What you probably want is something that doesn't use up a lot of power (look for max power load/draw in the specs) or doesn't have fans to make noise.  I like the new cisco catalyst 1000 series 8 port switch because its fanless, doesn't draw much power and can even do some simple layer 3 routing.  There are other Ethernet switches starting at about the $50 price point which may be fine for non engineering users.

Latency.  Your intra-switch latency will be on the other of 3-6usec (microseconds) for a store and forward.  Humans, starting with elite drummers, start being able to detect viariations in the timeframe of a few miliseconds.  So you're fine.  

Wireless.  Packetization delay and its associated variability in delay (jitter) can be avoided altogether because you have existing wiring in place. 

As far as the decision to put in another switch:  Your driving design decision would be to control the length of cable runs (a moot point in a residential home) and avoid needless complexity and hassles in cable runs. 

If you've got money to burn, I wouldn't buy fancy cables and routers.  I would however consider getting a firewall and put in policies to isolate my IoT/security vlan from my engineering, music, guest and production (kids, wife, TV, etc.) vlans. 

@ttippie,

all you have established is that as a digital guy you dont't know much about the impact of RMI/EFi and ground level noise on the analogue portion of a DAC. And again, listen before you postulate. More flat earth thinking.

If noise affects the analog output of a DAC it's measurable. What do you think THD+N means? Keep it below -110db which even a $200 DAC is capable of and it's not audible to humans.

Yawn: God gave us ears to listen. Will you ever stop pontificating?

...and by the way: why the hell do you continue repeating the same drivel endlessly? This is a forum for people exchanging their personal experiences to help each other, not the Church of Wonky Measurements

I refrained from posting until you babbled about DACs and as usual had no idea what you were talking about. 

https://www.osti.gov/servlets/purl/1187984

..and before you start again: no, the DACs error correction does not obviate the issue...

@antigrunge2 

Yawn: God gave us ears to listen. Will you ever stop pontificating?

Sometimes ears get pooped in by their brother.

...oh my: cross-pollu(ona)ting threads, are we?...😜

Sometimes ears get pooped in by their brother.

What kind of childhood did you have?

nanana now!

Any thoughts on coax cable? I have about 50’ of coax before modem. Any perspectives on moving modem and running Ethernet through house to router instead? Thanks, Ted

@caglioti 

I'm not sure what you trying to accomplish but you may look into Google Mesh (pods). I have strategically installed 3 pods throughout my three story home and they work flawlessly. One of the pod can also serve as hard-wired connection to your music streamer. 

I have Google mesh now. Set up just as you mention. Just wondering about the long coax cable to my modem , after that it's Ethernet. Maybe I'm overthinking. House was wired for CATV long time ago, not sure if improvement would be had removing coax and replacing with cat 5,6,8?

thanks,?T f

So a quick update ... adding a second switch (in the media room) that sits between the wall jack and Eno was an abject failure. I bought a basic D-Link switch with iFi power supply. It felt like someone put a thick blanket over the sound. The degradation in sound, especially soundstage depth and overall vibrancy was very noticeable. I will let it run for a few hours, but honestly the result is so bad that I doubt it will be worth it even if it were to improve a little. So clearly, Rich's (ENO owner) suggestion of having two switches in the path did not work in my case. The English Electric Switch8 also did not do diddly squat in my chain when I tried it a few months ago. Personally, I'm reaching the conclusion that unless one is willing to invest in higher end switches (Telegartner or Melco, etc.), don't even bother.

As sugggested, I will try a better ethernet cable and report the results faithfully as I hear them.

@arafiq , is it possible to get under the house and run the cable diagonally to your system? This could shorten the cable run length considerably.

I have the cable run directly from my modem in the middle of the house into the hollow wall and hanging from the floor joists before entering my music room through what used to be an unused power outlet on a double brick wall and then into my Antipodes streamer/server.

The cable would need to be at least 50 metres long to go around my house. I get away with a 15 metre cable by going under the house. You can also keep it away from nearby power cables and outlets this way too.

One question that someone else might care to answer. I've read that round cable is supposedly audibly better than flat. True? Why?

@ianrodger -- thanks for the suggestion. Unfortunately, in my area houses do not have basements, and there is no way to run the wire underneath the house without performing some major surgery. There are a number of hallways and other rooms in the way.

On a side note, I want to clarify that there’s no real problem that I have in my current setup. It still sounds pretty damn good! I was just trying to see if adding a second cheap switch or better ethernet cables in the last mile might result in any further improvements. So clearly, the second cheap switch thing didn’t work. Not only did it not work, it did harm to the sound quality. Let’s see how a better ethernet cable might fare once it’s delivered next week.

The English Electric Switch 8 before my ENO filter was a nice upgrade in sound quality. Seems nothing in audio is universal in result. I have my EE on a Keces LPS. 

@arafiq thanks for the reply.

I'm in Australia and didn't even think about basements.We don't have them here.

My house is on brick piers so I have a good crawl space under the floors. A house on a cement slab would be very restrictive in respect to re-cabling etc. Something I should consider I guess, if I ever sell and move

I've thought about switches too but am wary of adding another link to the chain as I'm really happy with my current setup too.

I would however consider swapping to a round ethernet cable for that "last mile" if I thought it might improve the sound as some have postulated. I'm just unsure of how and why it might.

I get the fibre option too but the converter required, possibly at both ends, adds another link to that chain. Nevertheless, I'll check it out and consider it as it's a cheap enough option not to bother me if it doesn't provide any sonic benefits.

Good luck with your search.

I use these things and don't worry about the ethernet cable.  DX Engineering ISO-PLUS Ethernet RF Filters

I have to stream via wifi to my system.

A friend suggested using a wifi extender, then plugging via ethernet to my streamer. A better option than the wifi signal?

"So clearly, the second cheap switch thing didn’t work"

@arafiq

The simple explanation would be, cheap switches like the one you tried are not designed for audio applications. I would suggest that you save your money for a switch like Melco or Telegartner which offers much superior noise rejection and re-clocking of incoming data. I realize they are at much high price point but based on my experience, a switch like Melco or Telegartner also negates the need for a passive filters like ENO.

@lalitk 

agreed, the benefit of an Etherrregen is both complete isolation via the mold and high quality upgradeable re-clocking.

@jerrybj ,

the solution your friend proposes works only very occasionally: network repeaters suffer from high and amplified noise levels whereas in most instances Wifi is inferior to fiber or ethernet.

...network repeaters suffer from high and amplified noise levels ... Wifi is inferior to fiber or ethernet

Unfortunately, I have no option; it has to be wifi to streamer.

With something like a TP-Link AC2600, I can connect via Ethernet cable. Then in the future will add something like an EtherRegen between the wifi extender and the streamer.

@lalitk -- Agreed. As we discussed a few weeks ago, something like Telegartner is part of the not-so-distant future purchase plan. The cheap switch was always supposed to be a stopgap measure, but what I didn’t account for was that it would actually degrade sound quality to this extent. Well, you live and learn.

As I mentioned earlier, the EE Switch8 didn’t work in my system. I know @grannyring has had success with his. For some reason when I talked to the dealer at the time of purchase, he said that EE actually recommends switching PS over LPS. So I never bothered with an LPS. I wonder if that was the missing piece of the puzzle.

@antigrunge2 -- Based on my rather ordinary experience with EE Switch8, I’m a bit leery of trying another product in the same price range. I think to hear ’substantial’ improvements, something like a Telegartner is probably the way to go. Innuos’s PhoenixNET is another option. Both are much pricier than EtherRegen to be fair though.

At this point, I need to decide my next move ... do I first improve the USB side of things by inserting something like the Innuos Phoenix USB reclocker/regenerator, or invest in a better switch upfront. Eventually, I might end up doing both, but let’s say if I have to get one of them first, which one do you guys think will provide a more noticeable improvement?

Is there any way to get rid of the noise put into the system by a wifi extender?

@jerrybj -- someone like @lalitk or @antigrunge2 are probably more knowledgeable on this topic, but I would say something like an ENO filter (Network Acoustics) might not be a bad option to consider. I tried my Zenith MK3 both with and without the ENO, and it definitely makes a subtle but noticeable improvement. It allows for a blacker background which in turn improves transparency and detail retrieval in my system. But it's not a night or day difference for sure.

@arafiq

Use a netgear GS305 self learning bridge:

I have about 4 of these in my house daisy-chained and they work perfectly. Use at least a cat6 cable and you will be fine.

@arafiq

pls see my previous post re: InnuOS Phoenix USB. The utility is very much dependent on your DAC’s clocking accuracy and USB implementation. USB is a compromised transmission format; increasingly people consider going all fibre to the streamer and on to the DAC. Since we however live in the here and now I’d try and improve the USB connection first by inserting galvanic isolation. I use the Intona Isolator with Intona reference short (!) cables for that purpose. It’ll not get you what the Phoenix can do but will be a lower cost option. The expensive bit in the Phoenix is the clock; I am somewhat disenchanted with Innuos for trying to sell us the same thing twice rather than offer separate clock entries in one unit (Phoenix USB and Phoenix Ethernet) since clocking is important in both links.

tThe reason I am unconvinced about the Phoenix USB is mainly that in asynchronous USB the DAC slaves the server to its clock; so by getting better clocking on the Dac rather than inserting another box you actually kill two birds with one stone: not only do you improve USB clocking but you also, and in my mind even more importantly improve clocking of the D to A conversion with very beneficial effects on attack, reverb and soundstage.

All told, rather than spend too much money on USB consider whether going all fibre is a future solution and if you decide to stay with USB focus on isolation as well as the Dac’s clock.

"USB is a compromised transmission format"

@antigrunge2

Great post! I mentioned this to @arafiq yesterday to steer clear from USB reclocker type of devices. Before you know it, you end up cluttering your space with multiple boxes for a minimal gain. I been there, done that. The Ethernet based DAC/Streamer or server is the way of future and it is already here. I realize these devices like Lumin, Bricasti and Merging Technologies are not inexpensive but by the time you add the cost of individual boxes like DAC, Streamer, external Re-clockers, USB and Power cables, switches, filters, LPS...you are right up there as far as cost not to mention redundant features you end up not utilizing.

Personally, I don’t like to clutter my space so I went with a Ethernet based DAC/Streamer and couldn’t be any happier.

Audiophile switch with lps diminished sq in my setup, as usual YMMV. 

My issue with streamer/dac combo is limited choices, I understand the advantages. As usual costs and benefits with every choice.

At this point in time I percieve steaming solutions as consumables, tech in it's infancy, many innovations to come. I don't want to invest silly money in soon to be obsolete equipment. I suspect full chain of fiber capable equipment is on way, many more choices in near future. Now, if only we could get internet providers on board.

I owned the Innuos Phoenix reclocker and found it did not improve sound quality when paired with my Mojo Audio Evo dac. It changed the sound a tad, but not any better. The Ideon Master Time reclocker was better, but not as impactful as the ENO stuff in my system.

I was also told an LPS was not needed for the EE Switch 8 and that the switching wall wart supply was as good or better. My listening tests proved otherwise in my system. Again,  no absolutes in this space and each of us will have to try for ourselves. I think the quality level of the LPS used is at play here.

"Audiophile switch with lps diminished sq in my setup"

It would be helpful to know which switch you have tried? The impact of above largely depends on what’s ahead in the chain. If you’re using a device that is not designed or optimized for audio application, you will not achieve desired results. It’s like putting a lipstick on a pig! You need to address noise filteration on both input and output data stream. Even then, you won’t eliminate 100% of the noise. General purpose laptops and Mac mini’s have no place in audio streaming if you’re remotely serious about streaming. I see folks goes to great lengths in eliminating noise on these type of devices and often come away disappointed.

@ttippie

What kind of firewall might you advise, please?

Three thoughts.,..ok four.

1.) You know what you’re writing about as you live in that world. But please see #3. 

2.) Many here want the benefits from good or great wiring. This thinking extends into ethernet wiring as well. No plastic clips for me.

3.) Noise is the enemy. I’m certain that despite my skewed wanting to believe in my gear bias that the EtherREGEN made for better sound.

4.) Many here like getting and trying out different stuff. File this under who doesn’t like more horsepower.