PSA: Be Careful Dealing With Uptone Audio
Over the past 3 or so years I have owned an ISO Regen, two LPS 1’s and two LPS 1.2’s. When they work they are OK. However, when they do not, you cannot really count on any meaningful support from Uptone Audio – under warranty or not – and even more so if you are not in the US. One of my LPS 1’s failed during the warranty period after less than a year of use. It would not output anything. I contacted Alex Crespi of Uptone who arranged for a replacement. I shipped the faulty LPS 1 back (costly). I received a replacement in about a month. The replacement I received had dings on the case that were not there in the first place. I just chalked it up to shipping issues. Two months later, the replaced unit failed again. It would not light up. It had more than a year left under warranty. I contacted Uptone again who requested I ship it back again for replacement. However, they discouraged it and proposed a credit of US$185 towards the purchase of a new LPS 1.2 in lieu of the warranty on the unit which faltered so quickly after it was replaced. Upon further questioning and correspondence with Uptone, it came to light that they had not repaired the unit I had sent in for warranty replacement with new parts. Instead they had replaced the board with parts culled from used and returned units previously sent in for trade in or repair purposes. In short, the warranty is tantamount to having your unit replaced with a used one which may or may not have been faulty in the first place, which they claim to have “tested”. It is no surprise that the unit faltered so quickly after their supposed warranty replacement then. As such, their so-called warranty replacement is pretty much flawed. Alex got defensive and quoted some self-derived metric about the failure rates of their products being extremely low and put the cause of successive failure in my units down to my bad luck. He also said that I had electrically damaged the unit which is baffling since I had used it only with their supplied OEM Meanwell switching power supply which still works fine up till today. To date, in the last 20 or so years of being in the hi fi hobby, these Uptone products are the only ones to have malfunctioned so badly.
Wishing to cut my losses and to avoid having to ship the faulty unit back to the US at costly charges when the “warranty” replacement would most likely fail again shortly, I paid the remainder towards a brand new LPS 1.2. Alex made it clear that he would not assist with repair of the faulty LPS 1 and I disposed of it.
I received a shipment of the LPS 1.2. However, when I unpacked it, the unit had a clear rattling noise when removed from the box. Upon closer inspection, there was a slight scratch on the front chassis plate and the screws were badly stripped. It was pretty clear that Alex had shipped me a used unit or one that had escaped their seemingly lax quality control. I contacted Uptone immediately and requested that they make arrangements for their carrier to collect the unit from me for return to them and replacement of a brand new unit to me. Alex admitted to their negligence citing size slippages and disparities in their OEM case specifications which caused the misfit and rattling noise and worn out Torx screwdrivers stripping the screws. He was certainly aware of the issues affecting the unit I was shipped. However, he refused to do anything about it. He suggested that he would send me some screws and that I open up the unit myself and mount some electrical tape inside the case to stop the rattling noise. Again, he seemed to be fully aware of the issue and how to fix it. Unfortunately, I am not technically inclined nor do I own a Torx screwdriver. To render those fixes I would have to pay a technician to do so. This is rich considering that I had paid for a new and finished product and was shipped a used and/or damaged one. I wrote back to insist on a replacement unit being sent to me and that Uptone arrange to cover the return shipping costs to themselves. Again, Alex refused steadfastly and got hostile, saying that I was taking advantage of them. How exactly am I taking advantage? I paid full price for a new and finished product – that is all I expect, no more and no less. Alex also stated that he did not wish to lose any money on this sale even though Uptone offers the best customer service possible. His final offer was that I return the LPS 1.2 to them at my own cost and that he would refund me the US$250 I had paid meaning I would have to write off the US$185 credit value on the disposed LPS 1 which he is contractually obliged to repair but had refused to assist me with.
In this whole experience with Uptone, Alex strikes me as someone who is simply full of excuses. He pays lip service to providing good customer service but it is really just marketing talk. When it comes to the crunch, he fails to deliver but instead makes excuses and puts the blame on anyone but Uptone and himself. Outrageously, he even believes in his own self manufactured press. I recall earlier correspondence with him on why the Uptone ISO Regen would disconnect from my DAC for no reason, requiring that I unplug and replug the DC cable from the Uptone LPS 1.2 for it to work again. Not knowing that I was powering it with a LPS 1.2, he began by questioning the power supply I used. When told it was a LPS 1.2, he blamed the issue on the Silanna chip Uptone used in the ISO Regen – after all, it was an Uptone supply and he could not blame that anymore. I mean you manufactured this product, sourced and supposedly tested the parts and then sold it to the customer as a finished product for good money. The sheer lack of responsibility, ethics and professionalism!
As an example of Alex being purely a marketing act, you can see on the Computer Audiophile forum how he derides Sonore’s optical module and Optical Rendu, since Uptone now makes a competing product. Recall, Uptone came into existence making derivative products such as USB fixers and power supplies to be used with Sonore’s series of streamers – the hypocrisy of it all.
I appreciate that others may have had a good experience dealing with Uptone Audio but unfortunately, that hasn’t been the case with me. Uptone strikes me as a bucket shop. There are lots of cottage industries and artisanal products in hi fi and that is fine and good, so long as they are run with honesty, integrity and professionalism and not at the expense of unsuspecting customers. Pete of Triode Wire Labs is a great example of a fine one man show company who provides great customer service. Uptone is definitely NOT - YMMV!
Customers like this are the reason why more and more companies do not offer transferable warranties. Uptone has been around for a very long time and sold thousands of products but if you read the OPs thoughts all of his products are faulty. He would have gone out of business long ago if that were the case. |
Wow ! What a series of exchanges ! My experience with Uptone-Audio and Alex although fairly recently has been nothing but positive ! Prior to purchasing, I had a rather lengthy conversation with Alex regarding his EtherREGEN product and I purchased one. In my long conversation with Alex, he also stated what while his unit worked just fine with the included switching PSU, a linear PSU may have a positive benefit. He recommended a Teddy Pardo LPS to me as he didn't have any of his available at that time due to supply issues. He could have said just wait till he had them available. Also, he recommended I purchase a 10mhz, precision clock which he said would have a much more positive effect on the sound. So far, the EtherREGEN has been working flawlessly and I've purchased the Teddy Pardo LPS and an After-Dark Queen precision OCXO, and as Alex said, the clock made a more significant difference than the LPS. My conversations with Alex have been more than amiable as he's very willing to share technical information and answer any questions. He doesn't try to get you off the phone and he's a wealth of knowledge in the digital realm. I couldn't be happier with the Uptone product and Alexs' help ! |
OK, I did finally wade through the entire mess, but it is very interesting, or else I just lead a dull life. I’d be interested to hear what @thyname thinks, which seems to be that Alex/Uptone is being improperly maligned. I am now of the opinion that mikey8811 is clearly in the right. This could explain why, as stated, "The vendetta runs very deep." I also think @terryakhan might want to either go through the entire mess too, or else understand that mikey8811 has been into audio equipment for 20 years, and has apparently only been upset with his dealings with Alex at Uptone. I read the post from Alex (@crover) right after my posting, slightly interesting that it is an "ancient log-in account" yet has only one posting, but that could be something on Audiogon’s part. I also will have to disagree with the " This is a baseless campaign by a person who we treated well (as we do all our clients) but has some other agenda." I guess that will depend on your definition of "treated well." One thing that jumped out to me, mikey8811 was trying to fix the old LPS 1 that had failed, his electronics guy found one problem, did the repair, but that didn’t fix it, so he needed two little capacitors, only found in the U.S., so he asks if they could be sent to Alex and just put in with the new LPS 1.2 he’s getting. Alex’s response, 10/17/19, " Dear Y A: I have already told you that it is not possible for us to assist you in repair of the original LPS-1. The special price offered to you to upgrade to LPS-1.2 is in lieu of any and all repair obligation regarding your old unit. We do not stock those capacitors at our facility because we use a turnkey PCB assembly firm who handles ordering of all parts to our exact specifications. I am very busy with EtherREGEN launch right now, so please do not ask again about LPS-1 repair advice." OK, and this is BEFORE mikey8811 has paid for the new LPS 1.2, and Alex is telling him to forget about any assistance, even putting two little capacitors that are sent to him from an outside source, into the package for mikey8811. That should have been the point where mikey8811 started to question the wisdom of continuing to deal with Alex, but of course he’s got a lot of money already sunk into the junky LPS 1 that was supposedly "repaired" but really wasn’t. I’m thinking Alex should have been embarrassed enough that the LPS 1 failed so quickly to make the effort to help, but he wasn’t. Of course, on 9/18/19 Alex says "We are sorry to lose you as a client," which would thus leave mikey8811 with the junky LPS 1 that wasn’t working. I had to chuckle at mikey8811’s comments, 100% accurate, in his 9/16/19 email to Alex, Dear Alex Thanks for your reply. Let me see if I understand this correctly. The LPS 1 is still under warranty as are many others out there. However, you do not have any new circuit boards for it. Instead, the circuit boards are from previously faulty units albeit now repaired or traded in ones. This is because the LPS 1 has been superceded by the LPS 1.2. Correct. Though the board we installed in your replacement was from a trade-in. It was not a board that had been repaired. My repaired unit’s replacement circuit board (not new) was thoroughly tested at your facility and yet it still failed after 3 months of use at best. You state that the failure rate of LPS 1’s are 3%. I guess I must have fallen into the really unlucky camp because I have literally had 2 units fail within a short time frame. Correct. " Correct." As a person who loves math, the odds of a 3% occurrence happening twice are 0.09%! Not even as good as the odds of you picking a winner on a Play-3 lottery, which of course I don’t do but that’s another discussion. The 9/17/19 email from mikey8811 follows along the same thinking, " Dear Alex Thank you for your candour. I will be traveling to Melbourne, Australia for work in 2 days. Do you have an authorised agent or distributor there with stock of the LPS 1? If so, would I be able to do a one-to-one swap so I may lower the costs of return and repair. I do not have high hopes for the longevity of the repaired unit given my previous experience and your admission of the poor quality of available parts and will probably have to write it off if it becomes defective once again. I am just hoping to minimise my losses from this experience. While I appreciate your honesty and apology, I do hope you can also appreciate my point of view. My experience with the Uptone LPS 1 has not been the best to say the least and to chalk it down to my bad luck is something that leaves a bad aftertaste. To be honest, this is the only item in my Hi Fi setup to have malfunctioned in the last 20 years if my recollection serves me correctly. While I do enjoy the sonics of the LPS 1.2 in my system currently, I am wary about its longevity given the above. At this juncture, I am hesitant to throw more good money after bad and am unlikely to want to purchase another Uptone product. Again, this is no personal slur on you. " Also note, nobody has referenced these emails by mikey8811 here, though they are at the other site. So, after this ridiculousness, mikey8811 STILL continues on and buys the LPS 1.2, putting another $250 into it and the difference being the $185 warranty that Alex won’t have to honor, as discussed previously. This is also noteworthy, Alex has referenced that he works on 100% markup, which means the LPS 1.2 costs 217.50 to produce, and he pays $35 shipping to Malaysia, so at $250 he’s losing $2.50 on this fiasco, and not having to bother repairing AGAIN the LPS1 that mikey8811 has. Quoting from @crover 1/10/20 post, " And since the retail price of our products--at only double our actual costs-- " So immediately upon receiving it mikey8811 says there is a problem, even stating he believes it isn’t new. This is the only place where I’ll disagree, although I can’t state definitely until I see more evidence, I’m believing it was new. The pictures are fairly grim regarding the screws, and chuckling again, mikey8811 says "Here are the photos you didn’t include, which clearly show the damage." So Alex posts this massive amount of information, but leaves out the photos? OK, even with the questionable screws, that is fairly technical but from the photos looks to be a legitimate complaint. The ultimate deciding factor though is the "0.1mm too short" circuit board as stated by Alex in the 10/28/19 email and mikey8811’s logical response: " Any rattle you hear is only from the entire circuit board not being held firm in the slots by pressure from the front/back plates. The PCB has close +/- tolerance for length, and sometimes a few are just 0.1mm short—enough to keep the end plates from holding it steady. We have a trick to fix that (a bit of electrical tape along the inside of the front plate is enough thickness), but perhaps we missed your unit or the temperature is different in your environment" mikey8811: "There is a recurring thread where you tellingly seem to know exactly what has caused the damage. Yet are not decent enough to take responsibility for your own negligence but rather ask me to open up the unit myself and mount electrical tape. As mentioned, I am not technically inclined nor do I own the implements necessary to fix issues with the used and/ or damaged unit you sent. I would have to pay a technician to so so which is ludicrous as I paid for a new and finished product which was clearly not shipped as such. There is only your word that there are no loose parts and your words have been proven to lack credibility. Good customer service only happens when you perform it. Not when you just talk endlessly about how good it is. " I loved what Alex said, "the temperature is different in your environment!" Does he make them in Alaska? Also, they didn’t "perhaps we missed your unit," they did miss the unit. So a refund is due, it should be $435 because that is what mikey8811 has into it. Alex’s claim that mikey8811 has already gotten the money back is false, because Alex is challenging the claim. If the credit card company decides in favor of Alex, it is only because mikey8811 has’t shipped the unit back at his own expense, which really should be paid for by Alex for sending a clearly defective, by his own admission, unit. And if mikey8811 did ship the defective LPS 1.2 back, even getting the $250 back from the credit card company, he's still out the $185 repair he's due for the junky LPS 1 that Alex sent him. As a final disclaimer, I have never met nor dealt with either person. |
@glupson Yes, one really has to have luck when purchasing an Uptone product. Because everything is considered to be the customer's fault. Rattling noise from a mis-specified board size, botched up assembly and screw job, warranty replacement that failed after 2 months. The "statistics" Alex quotes never add up. The LPS 1 was supposedly less reliable with a 3% failure rate. Yet the LPS 1.2 which is supposedly more reliable has a 5% failure rate when it suits him. But as he mentions to a customer on the receiving end, do not mention it to anyone as it is their cash cow. The 3% and 5% seem to encompass an ever increasing number of people so it probably isn't really 3-5% anyway but higher. Ultimately, even a customer who bought new and directly from Uptone and was taken care of, found Alex's business practices dubious and sold off all his Uptone products. @the_treble_with_tribbles go through the whole email chain. You will find if nothing has been left out that the scenario is as I depicted in my opening post. As I have said before, I have not received the money back, regardless of whether Uptone had their funds deducted or not. My credit card issuing bank's policy is to hold the funds in escrow until the case is resolved. I doubt I will see the money back. Another point that is perhaps of more interest to folk here is whether items purchased on the secondary market are entitled to warranty cover. In Uptone's case, their policy is a transferable 3 year warranty so that is not really relevant here. They are merely fulfilling their warranty policy by assisting with a faulty used product so long as the warranty period is valid. Alex has NOT gone out of his way to be helpful to me here. The same goes for the $185 credit he provided to absolve himself of said warranty towards the LPS 1 that failed shortly after a previous repair. He cannot have a warranty policy that way and then discriminate against people who have bought Uptone items used. But you have also seen from the experience of others who bought direct that much bantering and delaying was needed before Uptone took care of their issues. If a manufacturer states upfront and outright that secondary market items are not entitled to warranty claims then so be it. But that is certainly not the case with Uptone. If he did that, the demand for new Uptone units will drop - you just need to look at the number of LPS 1's and 1.2's that are frequently available for sale to see that many that buy them subsequently trade out of them. I have had experience with other manufacturers that have varied. Krell for example used to be country oriented. I have relocated around the world for work and an original unit bought from an authorised distributor in one country is only entitled to limited warranty in another within the warranty period. This is perhaps to protect their dealer network. Mark Levinson when it was under Madrigal allowed for warranty coverage wherever you are or were subsequently located regardless of the original country of purchase. But overall, in hi fi, I have found that it is rare for manufacturers not to be responsible for secondary market products so long as they are within the warranty period. |
"...which was 0.1mm short (within our PCB firm’s tolerances)--just enough so that the end plates don’t squeeze the PCB enough to prevent a slight movement of the board in the case if you rock it from side-to-side."Is that 0.1 mm usual tolerance (for other manufacturers)? It seems very small. Is 0.1 mm really going to make such a rattle, or whatever it was decribed as? Be it what it is, I have never had anything rattle inside a new piece of equipment. Maybe I got lucky and mikey8811 got unlucky. Could it really be that others have tolerances to 0.01 mm? |
Alex from UpTone Audio here (forgot that I even had an ancient log-in account here at Audiogon, not my usual "Superdad" moniker): Regarding @mikey8811's continuation of multi-forum posting of false or mis-leading statements and messages taken out of context, there is so much to unpack here, and really it is a waste of my time. But I will set some facts straight and well as repeat the basis for what all this is about--so folks can judge for themselves.
While it would normally be easier for me to quote sections and reply, it is clear that I am going to need to copy/paste this information into replies on the near half-dozen other sites where he is duplicating his baseless campaign. Also, a couple of the points I'll make make may be in response to falsehoods posted on one of the other forums.
A) He claims that we sold him (the only sale ever made to him directly, and it was at below our cost) a used UltraCap LPS-1.2. This is patently false. He bases this on only two things: 1) The fact that the black-oxide Torx screws we used look a bit ugly in their sockets (and I right away had offered to mail him a bag of new screws); 2) The fact that the unit he got happened to have a PCB board which was 0.1mm short (within our PCB firm's tolerances)--just enough so that the end plates don't squeeze the PCB enough to prevent a slight movement of the board in the case if you rock it from side-to-side. 3) We shipped his unit after receiving new boards and testing/assembling a new run. When we received payment from him, we simply took a full, retail boxed unit from the shelf and packed/shipped it. He received for $250 (including FedEx shipping) exactly what any other buyer would have received for $435 (plus shipping). HE CAN PROVE TO HIMSELF THAT THE UNIT WAS NEW: Every PCB in every product we produce has a 4-digit date code (this is different from version or revision number). On the UltraCap LPS-1.2 PCBs this number is located on the board next to the power switch. First 2 digits are the week number (01~52), second 2 digits are the year. In 2019 we produced two runs of 250 boards each. The first run was in February, the second run was in July--with boards actually received by us a couple months later. If Mr. Cheah slides the board from the case, he will find the date code of 2719. That is June 2019, when the bare board was produced--populating of board and receipt by UpTone was about 8 weeks after that.
B) He quotes another client who posted that he received goods back from us with nicks/dings/scratches on the cases: 1) Such damage NEVER occurs here at our facility. My assistant assembles hundreds of units and she comes to me when she sees even the smallest of blemishes on a new case or plate. 2) It is always astounding to us the condition that some repair units arrive to us, often due to the total lack of care taken either in their home use of it or in their packing for shipping. People send things to us loose in poly/Tyvek shipping envelopes. We also see people being extremely rough with I/O jacks--including ripping them from the PCB, tearing off traces in the process--and turning the boards to scrap. 3) We always return repairs in the same case as received it--and we wrap/pack in the same foam as new units. Sometimes we'll receive a unit with so many scars that I can't bear to send it back in that same case. So I'll pick out some vastly better looking--but still 'B' stock--chassis parts and use those.
C) He complains that when we repaired his original LPS-1 under warranty, we replaced his entire circuit board with one from someone else's unit. This is true, but to his benefit: 1) We could have repaired his old board. But it is a complex design, repairs take a lot of time, and there would be possibility of other parts having been stressed but not found/replaced. 2) Original UltraCap LPS-1 boards have not been produced since 2017. The model was discontinued and superseded by a more advanced, more costly design. 3) We sometimes accept trade-ins of working, original LPS-1 units from people who want to upgrade to the new model. That deal is $275. We do not make any money on these trade ins, but it does give us working units to use for repair/exchanges for the few LPS-1 units that come back for repair under warranty. 4) We sometimes also repair LPS-1 boards, but because Mr. Cheah is located overseas we felt it would be more prudent to send him a fully test traded-in board. 5) Yes, the original LPS-1, with about 2,000 units sold, had a higher than expected long-term failure rate--about 3%. With the more advanced LPS-1.2 we made a number of architectural changes to address reliability, though it too, owing to some complex aspects (candidly explained elsewhere) has had a few hiccups.
D) He posts about a user who was concerned that we replaced his ISO REGEN circuit board with a newer version. This is odd because: a) I know who that gentleman is (in Canada) and I checked our records. THE UNIT HE SENT TO US WORKED PERFECTLY--on my bench with the LeCroy protocol analyzer, and in my audio system. b) Because he was in Canada, and because I wanted to be sure to rule out his problem being with the ISO REGEN, we installed a newer board for him free of charge--and paid for the international shipping. c) Like any manufacturer, we reserve the right to change and improve our products without notice. Sometimes there are very small parts where we can make a difference. Usually the change is on purpose, but sometimes a part will go out of production, forcing us to search for a equal or better substitute. The idea that we need to publicly disclose every in-line change is ridiculous. d) If we make a large enough revision to the basic design of a product, we will announce that. All our circuit boards have version numbers. The boards are populated with tiny surface parts, placed and soldered by expensive machines in a factory. This is not the old days where hand updates can be made. And since the retail price of our products--at only double our actual costs--is most all in their single circuit board, offering to upgrade users to a slightly newer revision would be prohibitively expensive, either for us or for the customer.
E) Mr. Y.A. Cheah claims that he has not received any refund. This also is false. 1) Below is a screenshot of the notification of chargeback that I received from my e-commerce site. HE RECEIVED HIS MONEY BACK LAST YEAR! 2) It is UpTone who has lost--and much more than just the cost of the NEW PRODUCT WHICH HE STILL HAS IN HIS POSSESSION. There were shipping charges, the cost of the original replaced unit, and the hours spent both in e-mails with him and now in defending our reputation across multiple forums. 3) I have challenged the chargeback and it will be up to his credit card company to decide the matter in another month or so. ----
To summarize: ==This is a baseless campaign by a person who we treated well (as we do all our clients) but has some other agenda. ==This is about scratched screws and a perfectly working product with a circuit board which knocks 1mm from side-to-side in its rails if you shake it. ==Every true fact or e-mail from ANY UpTone client anywhere in the world will prove just how exemplary our customer service is. As do the many kind comments offered here and elsewhere. ==Am I perfect? No. Are our products perfect? No. But we are producing and selling good value products at a reasonable price and treating our clients more than fairly. (It is not as if we are selling products each costing thousands of dollars; And we have all heard stories about audio companies selling expensive products and not treating their customers well.) == We often loose money going the extra mile and giving people the benefit of the doubt. Because I take the long view about generating customer loyalty. We don't advertise, so word-of-keyboard is what drives the business. ==This April marks the 10-year anniversary of UpTone Audio (begun in 2010 when I formed as an LLC with MusiCaps after the closure of Hovland Company). So we must be doing something right...
Really I am done with this matter now. Cheers,
Alex Crespi UpTone Audio LLC |
"PSA"...?...really? Dude, you buy used gear then want it both ways from Uptone. He doesn't need your type of business. Get over yourself. Nothing wrong with being thrifty and buying stuff used on the 'Net...HELLO, Audiogon!! Your situation warns others about its perils. You want to be serviced...?...well, buy stuff new. |
Hi @treble: It is not "according to thyname". The full email exchange was here: https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/psa-be-careful-dealing-with-uptone-audio.29848/ Unless you are a lawyer, your head will spin |
Ummm, no @thyname , the warranty on the old LPS-1 was definitely not void and thus worthless as thyname implies, "when the OP agreed to pay $250 for the new LPS-1.2 in lieu of any warranty claims / work on the LPS-1." You may have read the entire email exchange, but unfortunately didn’t understand it. It was apparently stated on one of UpTone’s emails, to which the OP agreed to, contrary to what thyname states, that in LIEU of performing the warranty work, a NEW LPS-1.2 would be sent, with the price differential of $250 to be paid by mikey8811, which meant a DISCOUNT of $185 because now Uptone didn’t have to perform the warranty work on the junky LPS-1 that Alex had sent him. Alex says (according to thyname) "I could spend a couple of hours unpacking his long post and replying point-by-point, but instead--for full transparency-- am going to paste the entirely of our 10 month long exchange. … and treated him with respect throughout more than a dozen e-mail exchanges. … … Anyone is free to ask me questions. I have zero to hide. Please judge for yourselves.Thanks, ALEX CRESPI " But that isn’t the ENTIRE e-mail chain, it is only seven out of the twelve, so I’ll ask to see the other ones too, which apparently show the deal that Alex offered to mikey8811. Quoting thyname "And then for some reason the OP disposed of the LPS-1 (??!) "and still asks for the money back on it." To explain again, once Uptone essentially purchased the remaining warranty of the junky LPS-1, that value, in this case $185 which was the amount set by Alex, becomes the property of mikey8811. Uptone didn’t ask for the LPS-1 to be sent back, it obviously didn’t have enough value to Alex to pay for the return shipping to him, so mikey8811 can toss it in the trash if he wants to, but of course would do the responsible thing and recycle it. Now thyname is correct, at this point the warranty is void, because mikey8811 agreed to the deal offered by Uptone. Anybody who would get that specific LPS-1 would have no warranty, and people would have to rely on the honesty of mikey8811 if he ever somehow sold it. It really isn’t complex. A $435 item was sold for $250 with a $185 credit for the LPS-1 warranty voiding, Alex at Uptone is the person who offered the deal, so there is more responsibility on his end. Quoting thyname again, "And then, the LPS-1.2 is somehow on a new box, but not new, at which point it becomes “he said / she said”, as we would never know," I am only in disagreement because I believe that Uptone did send a new one. It really wouldn’t make any sense at all to send a problem item to a customer who is already complaining. But then the fact that Alex says to just put a piece of tape in it to stop the board from rattling would be enough for me to want to return it for a refund. So, in the end Uptone has an extremely unhappy customer, willing to spend his time pursuing this, since apparently the credit card company did not reimburse him for the $250 charge. And all this is just for the price of return shipping of the new (or used?) LPS-1.2, which as thyname stated, is a "he said / she said" situation, but nonetheless Alex refuses to pay that, because in the end Alex is hoping to be the $185 ahead for not performing the warranty work of the original LPS-1, and only offering the $250 as a refund, which is unfair. |
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"Statistically, my worst buyers are from Asian 3rd world countries.............but sellers need to simply take big caution with some buyers, and hedge against those transactions.’Not knowing much about actual numbers and marketing approaches, but I was under the impression that Asia is a thriving audio market when compared to other continents. Is it really not worth taking a risk selling there just because some buyer may want to get what they paid for under the terms they paid for it? |
Case in point: @mikey8811 seems to have spent an absurd number of hours informing the public of his relatively unique situation with Alex, and now I am sure he is causing an exponentially more costly problem to Alex. @mikey8811 thinks he is owed some money so he is willing to spend equally or more money of his time to inform the public, and time out of money from Alex and the possible affect to his business. Next time you feel you are owed, you just need to leave a bad review or post a comment, and I bet if you started a GoFundMe, you'd get your money back faster than the cost you are spending to yourself and all |
Statistically, my worst buyers are from Asian 3rd world countries--i speak not to @mikey8811 experience but to the risk of seller to those people within the countries. Most of my buyers have a level of reasonableness over a product. A new or used product should arrive in the condition as the seller describes, but on occasion, an issue mat be found with the product that may affect the user experience by a mere 1%, but in these countries, the buyer will demand that 1% be fixed albeit the cost to the seller might be substantially higher than 1%. The buyer has the right to make that request, but this results in the seller being highly penalized for an issue that has no materially impact on the buyer, but the buyer insists. I think the consideration for the seller is highly discounted, and we really should all be looking to have a mutually beneficial transaction. I know the situation above is much different than my scenario, perhaps as a whole, but sellers need to simply take big caution with some buyers, and hedge against those transactions. |
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@thyname you just don’t understand contract law. If the amount were large enough, I would have sued Uptone. In which case, I hope you would be his counsel. Either way legally, it is a clear cut case. @the_treble_with_tribbles , all I ever asked for was a new LPS 1.2 that was properly assembled and for Uptone to cover the return shipping fees on the used one they sent. I would have thought that was a reasonable request since we had agreed on that. @gdnrbob I have not received my money from the chargeback. It does not look like I will. That is why I advised buyers to use Paypal and American Express and not another credit card like I had. Like I said, there isn’t any upside for me here. I will end up with a used LPS 1.2 for which I paid $435. That was Uptone’s intention after all. Uptone will certainly not honour the warranty on it. But that it no big loss given my experience with their dubious warranty service that others also seem to have experienced. |
I’ve had nothing but excellent service and support from Uptone and Alex over the past 4 years. I’ve got several amber Regens (all of which have worked perfectly and improve data integrity/SQ) and an LPS1.2 powering my DAC’s USB ethernet receiver.. which was a huge step up in reliability over a Corning optical USB cable. Certainly, the LPS 1.2 is the way to go, being more flexible, more robust, and having several design improvements over the original LPS1 (which was a brilliant product), but it was a first gen product which has been improved on. I just wanted to put out a good word for Alex and Uptone (based on my experience). |
No @the Treble with tribles , the warranty on the old LPS-1 was void when the OP agreed to pay $250 for the new LPS-1.2 in lieu of any warranty claims / work on the LPS-1. You did not read the entire email exchange. It was explicitly stated so on UpTone’s email, to which the OP explicitly agreed to. And then for some reason the OP disposed of the LPS-1 (??!) and still asks for the money back on it. And then, the LPS-1.2 is somehow on a new box, but not new, at which point it becomes “he said / she said”, as we would never know. |
When running a business one needs to factor in these situations . After selling 20,000 used compact discs you learn some times crap like this is going to happen . 1 out of 500 transactions is about what I experienced selling used cd's where I had to just bite my lip and just refund customers when they thought I did not describe the condition accurately . Had Uptone just pleased this customer this type of global red flag on their company never would have happened . I slightly side on the ops point of view . |
I’m thinking mikey8811’s story is slightly more believable, at this point, although in the end it seems Alex was the one harmed. So he bought a used LPS1. Alex at Uptone Audio seems to focus on this, but it really doesn’t matter what mikey8811 paid, or if he got it free, it still had two years warranty. He sends it back, paying the shipping, and is without the unit for this time. He then receives back an LPS1, that is supposed to be repaired, but I agree, it really wasn’t. Just installing a used board from a product somebody else sent in isn’t "repairing," it is "substituting" somebody else’s problem over to you. Especially as Alex says it is imperative to use the specified power adapter, which we don’t know was used with the unit the substituted board came out of. As evidence of this questionable practice, upon receiving the LPS1 back, it then quickly dies. And it is still under warranty. This is where it is interesting. mikey8811 is now at the same point, a non-working LPS1, but he’s out for the shipping cost. The price for a new LPS1.2 is $435. So, and this is important, Alex of Uptone Audio says he’ll send a brand new LPS1.2, mikey8811 can keep the non-working LPS1, but he will also pay $250. It is my understanding that Alex did indeed send a new LPS1.2 unit. Now, mikey8811 is not "all in" for $250. He’s essentially at $435. The warranty wasn’t "void" as thyname stated. He had an LPS1 that should have been fixed properly for no charge, and really mikey8811 shouldn’t have had to pay the second shipping charges for the clearly defective LPS1 that he was sent. The value of that unit was put at $185 by mikey8811 agreeing to this new deal that Alex offered. At this point, mikey8811’s actions do become a bit questionable though. OK, the torx screw complaint is very technical, and Alex does seem to be willing to take care of this. Saying "I don’t have a torx screwdriver" is fairly ridiculous, they are common enough that is should be possible to just borrow one from somebody if you don’t want to spend the small amount to purchase one. "I am not technically inclined" has to be pretty complete if a person can’t unscrew an old screw and screw a new one in. However, ultimately I’d decide in mikey8811’s favor, based on the advice from Alex to put some electrical tape inside to stop the board from rattling. That does not inspire confidence. So at this point mikey8811 deserves his investment back. That is $435, as previously agreed in the deal offered by Alex. But mikey8811 instead gets $250 back by disputing the charges with his credit card company and still has the unit. So he didn’t get the unit for free, it is worse than that. Now Alex has been swindled out of $65, which is the difference of the $185 to the agreed price of the unit at $250. It would be fair for mikey8811 to keep the LPS1.2 and pay the $65 difference. Otherwise Alex should agree to refund the other $185 for the warranty he didn’t have to honor, which was the deal he offered, but mikey8811 should then return the LPS1.2. I’d be interested to hear what ultimately happens. |
I have no dog in this either but the way this looks is the customer bought a used LPS 1 still under warranty which the company tried to fix with a used part that ended up not working so in lieu of trying to fix it again he was offered $185 credit on the old unit toward a new LPS 1.2 plus $250 ending any warranty on the old unit. Instead the company sends a used LPS 1.2 not a new one and customer says no wait a minute I bought a new one so no deal. In this case the customer should return the LPS 1.2 and receive either $435 or $ 250 and a working LPS 1. |
"So although he has never purchased anything directly from UpTone, we of course still honor our generous 3-year transferrable warranty and treated him with respect throughout more than a dozen e-mail exchanges."Is that supposed to be a honorable thing? Not treating someone who is asking for coverage under previously advertised warranty like garbage. One would think it goes without saying. At the same time, and I am like jetter with no dog in this fight, it came accross as buying used item is not a desirable in company's view and people who do it are somehow lower class. I know, it was not written that way, but it has that ring to it. |
You are the one that needs to be real. I am NOT gaming anything. Do the math yourself - I did not pay just $250. I paid $435 for a brand new LPS 1.2 with the $185 being an imputed credit to void the warranty if I were to have received a brand new LPS 1.2. The total consideration is $435 and NOT $250 for a brand new LPS 1.2. So since Uptone reneged on the contract by shipping me a used LPS 1.2, they will need to refund me a total of $435, since the warranty on the LPS 1 is no longer void but reinstated with the value of $185 that Alex quoted himself. It is basic contract law. Based on your terminology, it is Alex who is gaming the system to get out of a warranty he doesn’t wish to honour. All I expected was what was promised to me - a brand new LPS 1.2 and that was certainly NOT delivered. Case closed |
Again... (1) you agreed on paying $250 all in for a new LPS-1.2 in exchange for voiding any warranty claims / work on your your broken LPS-1. No? (2) Yet, when you were offered a full refund for your LPS-1.2 (you were to only pay shipping back to him), this is what you asked: ----- On Oct 28, 2019, at 8:37 AM, Yeong Aun Cheah wrote: Dear Alex You have shown yourself and Uptone to be a manufacturer who produces shoddy product who further refuses to be responsible for said product it has shipped. Please make arrangements for FedEx to collect the UltraCap LPS 1.2 from me for return back to you at your expense. I will gladly return it. Also, in lieu of the warranty value you have imputed to the faulty UltraCap 1 which is still under warranty, please make payment of US$185 to me. Sincerely ------ So you instead of just shipping the LPS-1.2 back for full refund, you want him to "make arrangements for FedEx to collect the LPS-1.2"? Then, you still ask for the $185 money for the LPS-1, to which you already agreed to void any warranty claims before? Finally, come on... I understand "gaming the system" stuff, but this goes way too far. Let's be real |
@thyname the feeling is mutual - it would be painful for me to deal with you too. I am glad we never have to. 1. I purchased a used LPS 1 - it was current generation then and had another 2 years left to the fully transferable warranty offered by Uptone. So is it a crime to purchase used? If Alex is averse to honouring his own transferable warranty, he shouldn’t have specified it that way. But likewise, with NO resale value on used LPS units, there will be a lower demand for new units. You cannot have your business model cake and eat it too. While I am unsure of its provenance, it was sold to me with the OEM Meanwell power supply that Uptone provides. Whether the original purchaser bought that at the same time, I do not know. Why the fuss? He subsequently says I overdrove it but not at the time and I have been using the same Meanwell all the while. That Meanwell still works so I do not think it is the issue but just a scapegoat. I used the LPS 1 with said Meanwell power supply that meets Uptone specifications. That is a fact. 2. It failed and I sent it in for a repair. Uptone sent me back a replacement repaired with a used board culled from a return and NOT a new one. This is in the correspondence you cite unless Alex decided to leave it out selectively as he is wont to do when it doesn’t suit his version of events. That replacement LPS 1 failed after 2 months of use most likely because it was repaired with used parts. Other posters on other fora have concurred that their repaired LPS 1’s also failed very soon after. That is a fact too. This is no coincidence - it is a pattern very likely due to Uptone’s warranty repair practices. 3. Like @jc4659 , I initially considered just having it returned for repair to save money but decided against it given the costly courier fees and the unreliability of the warranty repair given my experience with the previous one and Alex’s admission that he employed used parts. 4. Unlike @jc4659 ’s case however, Alex offered me a trade in value of $185 in settlement of the remaining 1 year of warranty on the LPS 1. As such, I paid a total of $435 being $250 in cash and the $185 in credit to absolve him of the warranty. This is the price for a brand new LPS 1.2 - no more, no less. As I would not be receiving any further assistance with the soon-after-replacement-now-faulty LPS 1, I disposed of it. Do NOT think for one moment that Alex did me any favours or went out of his way. 5. I did not just NOT like the LPS 1.2. As you can see from the posts on Computer Audiophile and WBF, the LPS 1.2 I was shipped was clearly used and/or damaged. 6. I had paid a total of $435 for a brand new LPS 1.2 but clearly did not receive one. I contacted Alex straightaway and requested that he arrange for a carrier of his choice to collect the LPS 1.2 and resend me a brand new one I had paid for. 7. Alex refused and offered me a refund of the $250 if I sent the LPS 1.2 back to him at my own expense. This would put me out of pocket for the $185 in credit (for the LPS 1) plus the courier fees. In what alternate universe does this work out as an equitable offer to me? All I requested for was to be sent a brand new LPS 1.2 for which I had paid a total of $435 - no more, no less. All this is patently clear in my original post and the email correspondence that Alex posted albeit somewhat unprofessionally. These are all irrevocable facts. That you have chosen to read it with your own slant favouring Alex and Uptone is your prerogative. But do NOT presume to judge the situation through your biased view. As I have said all along this is my experience dealing with Alex and Uptone. Others like @jc4659 obviously received better treatment. As such, from my experience, Alex is all marketing talk with no delivery. There is no point in furthering the discussion with you since you are biased. We will just have to disagree. |
I read the entire email chain on the What's Best Forum. From January 2019. It was painful. I would personally would have hated if dealt with you, honestly. Here is the gist: 1 - You bought a previous generation 2017 LPS-1 used from someone in US. Which failed. It was originally purchased without the power supply. 2 - Your replacement LPS-1 also failed. Maybe a coincidence ? Maybe... 3 - He offered you a LPS-1.2 (current generation) for $250 all in to you (shipped to Malaysia) in lieu of any repair on your LPS-1. This condition was clear on your communication. 4 - When you did not like the LPS-1.2 you received, he offered to refund you all the money if you ship it back to him. Not sure why this pissed you off. It sounds totally fair to me. |
@thyname No, I did purchase the LPS 1 for a low price at all. I would have expected an item repaired under warranty to have lasted for more than 2 months and that through the 2 year lifespan of that warranty period, 1 return would be sufficient. That is a very reasonable expectation. I reiterate that in my 25 or so years in this hobby nothing has failed so badly as these Uptone items, period. How exactly did Alex try to accommodate me on this latest LPS 1.2 purchase? By doing nothing and just saying he provided good customer service? Either you are very benevolent or have fairly low expectations. In fact from your posts, one may say that you have an agenda too. I have said my piece. Believe what you will. |
You bought everything used and likely very cheap. And you already knew you are in Asia (obviously) that would make warranty repair shipping costs to and from to US costly. I am not sure what your expectations are, perhaps a bit too high? There is always risk when buying used stuff, especially from foreign countries (to you). And it sounds to me like Alex tried very hard to accommodate you, and spend hours (all those emails back and forth) trying to do so. You are saying these lengthy posts of yours in all forums you are member of (I have seen at least four so far) are not vendetta. I fail to believe that. |
@david_ten Yes, I too find the sharing of email chains distasteful but clearly Alex Crespi is unprofessional enough to not. @thyname since you condone this behaviour, please know that Alex has your personal data too and will not hesitate to use it for his marketing purposes. By the way, I have not gotten my money back. I do not think I will. Please also be aware that this is by no means a vendetta. I couldn’t give a spoke about what happens to Alex Crespi or Uptone. They have cheated me once and never again. I do however believe in karma and that what goes around comes around. There is no upside for me in this at all. I paid good money for an item that was clearly used and damaged. That is an incontrovertible fact. I will also not see my money back. The purpose of this post and those on other fora was simply to make others aware of the situation so that they may avoid similar pitfalls. I stated this clearly at the outset. I also stated clearly that YMMV. It is fortunate that some of you have had good experiences dealing with Uptone but that has clearly not been the case with me. Ditto for many others on other fora who have responded to say that their LPS 1’s and 1.2’s have broken down in a similar manner. Warranty replacements/ repairs sent back to them have also suffered the same fate as mine - faltered shortly after they received them. This is no surprise given Uptone’s practice of using used parts from returns and repairs rather than new ones to render warranty service. This is telling about the quality of their product and warranty service. Be very cautious when purchasing from small companies, especially one-man-show’s like Uptone. I have never found myself at such a loss when dealing with larger, more reputable companies as they are professionally run and inevitably care about maintaining their reputation. Of course there are exceptions like Pete of Triode Wire Labs that I mentioned in the opening post. The other takeaway from this is to pay by Paypal or American Express rather than any other credit card. Both these payment methods offer a greater degree of consumer protection which include the covering of costly courier fees on returns. This is important when dealing with less professional merchants/ manufacturers located in other countries. For products like those that Uptone sells - with relatively low average selling prices - courier fees on returns of under warranty items which fail repeatedly, will make the entire economic premise untenable for customers located internationally. Many respondents on Asian based fora have agreed given their own experiences with Uptone products. I presume those in Europe and other countries will find the same too. |
After reading this somewhat troubling thread, I thought I would share my direct experiences with Alex Crespi and Uptone Audio. I have purchased multiple products from Uptone over the last few years. Alex has always been very responsive and professional in his emails with me. Last fall, my LPS-1 power supply stopped working. It was still under warranty and I contacted Uptone about a repair. Alex indicated that they would repair it free of charge but that they were just launching a new product and probably would not be able to look at it for a few weeks. Fair enough, so I sent the unit to Uptone right away. After 4 weeks, I contacted Alex and he gave me the option of purchasing a new LPS-1.2 at a substantially reduced price or repair the LPS-1 as originally planned. To save money (I am retired), I chose the repair route. Alex readily responded that he decided to give me a brand new LPS-1.2 power supply FREE OF CHARGE! I was not expecting this at all and received the new, updated P/S days later. It's been functioning perfectly ever since and was an immediate audible improvement over the previous version. Thus far, I have nothing but positive things to say about Uptone and Alex Crespi! |
@jcarpopo01-08-2020 6:54pm@ianrmack You're a very angry and accusatory person. Move on” Seriously, GFYS....I’ve been here since 2001 with a spotless record. I tried to tell the OP to move along and now it comes out that he is waging an internet war against a business that supplies fellow hobbyists. This is a loser thread. |
I don't have any permission. There are more email exchanges shared on that WhatsBest forum Myles Astor shared above. And probably the forum rules are violated by me sharing that other forum, but perhaps, defamation / revenge posts towards a specific industry participant, is also a violation of forum rules? Especially when the OP has posted them in every single audio related forum there is in the Internets? This is clearly a revenge post / campaign. It's very simple to see this. And he already got the money back. It's just $250 for f***k's sake. Why go full steam with revenge ?! |
@thyname Regarding your preceding post, I believe it is in bad form and may also violate Forum rules to "out" the name and location of a member. Unless you have his permission to do so. Do you? It’s good to have both sides of the story. In this case, it would be far better for Mr. Crespi to step forward on this, and represent himself. I also find sharing of email chains distasteful, but that may just be me. |
