Don’t be too flattered, I am just trying to get a handle on what to expect.
The box of KT-120’s and the 6 input tubes came in today, so the ELs will come out. I probably should have waited, but was overly curious.
And I also got a couple of tubes from my pre-amp.
Enjoy your system Sir, and I’ll do similar with mine. |
@holmz. I am getting the impression that you are somehow vested in what my impressions of the KT150s are and that our experiences are in alignment. In one way, that is flattering. But on the other hand, our systems and rooms are completely different. I am streaming Qobuz via Roon through different equipment cables and speakers than you in a different room with KT150s that are not burned in yet. Plus I had already rolled two of my inner preamp tubes. If you have a lot of hours on your KT150s and you prefer the sound of triode mode over ultralinear then that is fine. Maybe after my tubes burn in I will have the same experience. Alternatively, maybe I won’t. Either way is ok with me. At this time I am preferring ultralinear on my setup with my gear in my room. I will try triode again when I get a chance. If I have time I may report back. Otherwise, enjoy your system. That’s the one that matters to you. |
@kingbarbuda The Dialogue HP, which is a stereo amp. You text said: Triode bass was boomier, mids and trebles were subdued and less clear and distinct. Basically everything in triode mode was less clear and distinct. However I found the bass louder in UL.(i am not sure if that means “boomier”?) And also I found in Triode that the mid and treble was “airy”. It seemed like maybe it would be better with piano and vocals, but less appealing for use with TV sound tracks, and also less appealing with more of the mainstream rock/blues/etc. |
@holmz which amp do you have? Actually it sounds like you got worse results with triode. That lines up with what I reported above. |
@kingbarbuda
OK - so our amps give similar results in terms of making a difference.
However mine sounded a bit airy and “hollow” in Triode.
And the bass fled the scene.
But I occasionally keep pressing the button anyhow.
Are you seeing a red LED or green LED with UltraLinear?(Seems like our observations are exactly opposite.) |
@holmz I agree. I briefly compared ultralinear with triode with the new KT150s. It was not subtle. Triode bass was boomier, mids and trebles were subdued and less clear and distinct. Basically everything in triode mode was less clear and distinct. I will be using ultralinear mode. It’s much better.
|
@kingbarbuda it was not subtle when I poked the buttons. |
@holmz I know. I just have not made the comparison yet. |
@holmz My comments above are all within ultralinear. I have not tried triode yet. But I certainly will. Thanks. That amplifier allows switching on the fly… With the remote. The Taksman resistors “being so sensitive” sounds snake oily, They are used to limit currrent, and in dividing voltage. But I know people that do not like the sounds that athodium plated connection gives, so maybe they are better at it. |
Warm in the seanse of melding/meshing the midrange all together,, ultra smoothhhh,
but then cuts off the crystaliztion factor.
carbon offers a interesting image, no doubt.
But ultimately I opt for Metal.
I think Takman offers best metal resistors.
I also think once the Rex's are swaped to Rey's the quad of 12AU7
's will offer the best linestage circuit.
The AX = 100 amplificatio factor
AU= 20.
Honestly a all AU linestage would work better in my system as I am now using high sens WBers, and don't want that added push from the linesage's AX's in the circuit.
This would allow more gain control on the vol pot.
The DPL had 2 AX's but my tech after modding with Takman Rey's , a few weeks later,, suggested the circuit could swap out one of the AX's fora AU,,and it worked like a charm, = superior performance,, so the other day,,i attempted to swap out the other AX for a AU = no go,
So based on this swap of AX for a AU, with superior results,,, leads me to believe AU's are a superior tube for a linestage circuit,. Which is why Cayin employs a quad of 12AU7's.
Smart.
|
There seems to be a hole where the mid range detail should b ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ You know Thinking it over and visiting the EVO web site,, intergrated or pure amp?? Either. Both use all 12AU7’s in the front section. Same as the PL Prologue linestage I had tested last year. Just wondering,,,is if a all 100% 12AU7 pretube section, somehow misses that lil kick in the midrange?? Now I love 12AU7’s. as the most important tybe in a AX/AU circuit,,but seems possible leaving out the AX in the front,, somehow a AU just can’t add that punch to the mids.. Thing is, Cayin in the super duper linestage SC10 mark2, also employs 4 AU’s in the circuit, zero AX;’s. I really wanted that linestage at one time,,opted for a 2000, well used Jadis DPL.. anyway, thats the only thing I can figure out whats going on here,,as the build is stunning and impeccable, like all Spark China amps/linestage https://upscaleaudio.com/products/primaluna-evo-200-tube-integrated-ampNOTE:: PL employs takman Resistors, 1st class, But I;'m guessing REX carbon.. I don't like carbon, has to be REY's Metal for superior details and resolution. The REX/Carbon are too smooth, prfect for jazz fans that adore their overly warm sound,,which makes no sense to me, as warm + warm jazz recordings = 2X's warmth. YUCKKKK Try swapping out the Rex for Reys, and see what happens. Order from parts Connexion |
@holmz My comments above are all within ultralinear. I have not tried triode yet. But I certainly will. Thanks. |
I should say, after thinking about the 150, My friends vote does not count, Why?
If Jadis designs a amp, specifically for the 150, you know its a great power tube.
IMHO the 34 vs88 vs 120 vs150, good luck on a blind test.
Even SET's sound very close to PP amps,
Minus the 300 B tube which was made for telephone companies back when.
Pre amp tubes make the dif,
Wish to single out the Gold Lion 88's. I did not care for that sound. too mushy...
|
I would try the KT150 tubes. The EL34 tubes will give you a fantastic midrange but not the extreme bass or highs.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Even though I've not acutallu heard a 150,,I am saying your comment is snakeoil
THe 34,88,120's sound almost identical in my system, dif amps,.
The EL34 has just as good bass, highs, as any other power tube
34=88=120
My friend who uses 120's says he did not care for the 150.
So tahts that.
Its the preamp slot that makes ALL the difference.
If a Tele in the pre slot does not help out,,then we know this amp is not his cup of tea..
I will also add
Yes get rid of the chinese 34's.
Try EH. again this might help.
I bought a olde model PL preamp,,,and pluged in 6 Tele.s 12AU7's , did not like the sound,, back it went. |
- at least not until you give the KT120 or KT150 tubes a shot.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My friend lent me his Allan Organ monos, with KT120's, He says it is his fav tube.
Honestly I can't tell the dif from a 34,88,120, They all sound pretty much thev same..
What we all need to know is what
preamp tube
is he using.
Preamps tubes make a huge ,,well lets say a nice nuance dif.
I've done shootouts with 3 or 4 brands of pretubes.
Tele;'s always come out clean winner.
I am speaking of the AU's. and note, the NEW Tele AU prices....sky rocketing,,.,,, word has gotten out...... |
I have an Primaluna EVO 100 intgrated with Bluesound node 2i, innuos mini Mk III. The sound is breathtaking
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Well goes to show, not all PL amps are equal,
Cayin is consistently best sounding. |
The tubes are EL34’s.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My favorite tube, as price is lower than the 88's, and as i am a cheap scape right now, after WASTING< so sooo much cash in audio past 2 years,, EL34's are IMHO the best power tube
I've heard 120, 34.88, the 3 ,,add SET 250 tube,, they all sound near identiacl..
I did try the very popular Gold Lion KT88's and I did not like them
I had a PL pre amp bouught used,, in the 1st few minutes I know it was not what I was looking for..
Yes it is made in the very same plant as my fav tube amplifier, CAYIN...
THey look close same build,, but for soem reason they do not sound the same.
I returned it and gave the guy a gracious restock fee of 20% (I do this on all my returns).
Not saying all PL designs have issues, just adding my 2 cents.
It was a older preamp model, still its my belief PL and Cayin sound different |
@kingbarbuda how is it in triode?
and ultra-linear? |
@keeferdog Wow. You weren’t kidding (I didn’t think you were). Today I received and installed a set of 8 KT150s from TubeDepot and I am putting my PrimaLuna Dialogue Premium HP through its initial workout of a very big playlist via Roon/Qobuz. This is an entirely new amp! Where do I start? Compared to the stock EL34s, the soundstage is huge. Imaging is great. Bass and sub bass is big and tight. Everything is bigger and more forward. Highs on cymbals and high hats are discrete. It is just better in every way. And this is just on the initial listening session right out of their boxes! Before these KT150s I was thinking of selling this PrimaLuna. It was just ho-hum. Now? Unreal. This thing is going nowhere. Thanks for the tip on the KT150s. By the way, TubeDepot was great to work with and very responsive to my shipping concerns and everything worked out. I will let them know too. If any of you own a PL, check your manual. If you can use KT150s! It will revolutionize your amp. No kidding. |
Well the red LED is Ultra Linear, and then green is Triode mode. |
What does a red LED to the right indicate?(Their manual download from PL/HQ only has up to page 10) |
I saw a post here stating that the 7581 tube was a direct sub for the el34. I don't believe that is correct. The 7581 replaces a 6L6/KT66, etc. |
I have an Primaluna EVO 100 intgrated with Bluesound node 2i, innuos mini Mk III. The sound is breathtaking on my 8" 5 cu ft DYI 3 way towers. All with the stock tubes. Not sure what to say other than you have a mismatch somewhere. My speakers are rated for 70w RMS. The bass is solid, low, slams. Highs are velvet voices and dynamic. I listen to Rock, Jazz, movie sound tracks, country, Christian, oldies from 60s, 60s, 70s, 80s. Bad recordings are noticeable. Good ones , oh my gosh.
|
@golfnut2 "I will have anther go at swapping the input tubes, they solid though. Apparently the was ex display and never used, it certainly looked untouched out of the box. Just answer an earlier question, the Robsons sounded great through a PL Prologue Pre amp with Cyrus X Power amp. In hind sight, maybe I should have gone for that combo and it may have been a whole different story."
golfnut2, Ask Upscale to replace the input and output tubes, both. See what they say. Who knows what this demo was before you got it, could have been a return from someone else who did not like the sound. EL34s can sound great with the right efficiency speakers. Maybe not so much with lower efficiency veiled over speakers. And, you may not be an EL34 type of listener and closer to liking the sound of KT88+ output tube sound as many have already suggested. If they don't want to help you on tubes, just return it. I bet the right small signal/input tubes paired with good KT88 output tubes would be more to your liking. Best of luck. |
A bit of what keeferdog referenced. I've rolled several matched quads through my MAC 240, Svetlana, Sovtek etc.. they weren't even close to the Tung Sol 6l6GC reissues i have now. Even better than a mismatched quad of RCA's (questionable vintage). |
@jhills Where do you get the KT120s and what made you choose those over the KT150s? I am driving my quite challenging Maggie 1.7s with a Rogue Cronus Mag. II, running Tung-Sol KT-120 tubes and it has no problem driving them to any volume I care to listen to and the resolution, detail and stage is incredible . |
I see you have, or are considering sending back the PrimaLuna. If you haven’t already, I recommend you don’t - at least not until you give the KT120 or KT150 tubes a shot. Will cost you about $200.00, but from experience I can tell you, that with demanding speakers, they will shine far and above the stock EL34s. While the EL34s can be magic with very efficient speakers, they fall short with even slightly inefficient speakers.
+1 @ hardens "I recently rolled in a set of KT120 power tubes and noticed more detail from lows to highs and more power and weight in the bass".
I am driving my quite challenging Maggie 1.7s with a Rogue Cronus Mag. II, running Tung-Sol KT-120 tubes and it has no problem driving them to any volume I care to listen to and the resolution, detail and stage is incredible.
I think you owe it to yourself and your very nice Robson speakers to give it a shot.....Jim |
You can get a great sounding integrated SS. It isn’t the technology, it is the actual make and model design and execution. You can make generalizations that tubes sound better, but it is not true in all cases, and this is even more apparent on lower efficiency speakers.
If you really like a speaker/amp combo, be happy and don’t worry about the technology generalizations.
I am in the minority here but I believe in KISS. No messing with tubes, heat, etc. You already went KISS with integrated vs. separates, now just give a really good SS a chance. |
@Hardenx The tube suggestions above are good as well. I swapped out the stock 12AU7 gain tubes for Brimar CV4003 and immediately noticed a more defined top end and slightly more soundstage depth. I recently rolled in a set of KT120 power tubes and noticed more detail from lows to highs and more power and weight in the bass. The KT150s are a step up in horsepower from the 120s. You have to remove the tube cage to use the 150s, so not the best choice if you have young kids around which is wy I haven’t tried them. Thanking you sir! @keeferdog I own a PrimaLuna power amplifier. The stock Chinese EL 34 tubes sound like crap. Very anemic. I don’t care what Deal says. Buy a quad set of Tung Sol KT 150’s. HUGE, TALKING NIGHT N DAY DIFFERENCE. You’ll hear bass you didn’t know your speakers were capable of producing. Also, you’ll have to remove the tube cage with the large and tall “Christmas looking KT 150 bulbs”. Instant horse power! You can thank me later…. also thanking you sir! |
@stereo5 @holmz. He will give you recommendations on tubes for the Evo. I tried and that failed, so I tried email. My communication there also seemed to fail. We can sell our dealers Primaluna tubes at a discount but all other brands are sold at retail cost.
Service/Support Team - Upscale Audio
On Mon, Aug 30, 2021 at 7:35 PM, Holmz wrote:
Hi Josh,
Let me rephrase it then. I have a Prima Luna, and I need new tubes. What can I order from Kevin as the Prima Luna dealer?
X
Sent from my iPad
On 31 Aug 2021, at 9:03 am, Josh Phelps from Upscale Audio <service@upscaleaudio.com> wrote:
Hi X
We stay away from giving really specific recommendations on tubes. We don't ever want to promise something and not deliver.
Service/Support Team - Upscale Audio
On Mon, Aug 30, 2021 at 6:51 PM, Holmz wrote:
I saw Kevin Deal’s name mentioned on a forum, and I have a Prima Luna that I acquired from a friend.
I am running this into an older set of Vandersteen 2C speakers.
What tubes would you recommend, and can we do an order with a credit card over the phone?
Thanks,
X
+1-7xx-xxx-xxxx
Sent from my iPad Maybe we were both having a bad day? |
Hello,
I've used Prima Luna pre & power combinations and Prima Luna pre with respectable power amps, driving Thiel and later a fine UK monitor in their gold series. Lovely, no "holes." Gear has changed for me- integrated amp with tubes in the pre stage,now driving my Quad 23L speakers. Using a Linn CD player and a Music Fidelity DAC, I am totally enjoying the music. That's what it's all about. |
Look into a Rogue Cronus Magnum 3 integrated. At 100wpc, it should drive your power hungry speakers just fine. |
Thanks guys, that’s good advice. As advised by another responder, I tried the Evo through my Bose headphones and they do sound amazing. So clearly the info is there but not through the speakers. I can’t afford to change the Robsons, they were not cheap, and I know eventually I will tire of the Tannoys in my small listening room. So I have made the decision and arranged to send the Evo 200 back, while I still can. Amazingly, in comparison my Naim Uniti Atom sounds pretty good but having had a taste of the tube amplifiers sound, I know what I want. It’s been a good exercise though, and I have learned a lot from all you guys, that will put me in good stead for the future. So happy listening everyone and many thanks. |
You’re on to something with the Tannoy speakers. It’s no accident that Upscale Audio is the U.S. distributor for both Primaluna and Tannoy. I’ve heard the combination at Upscale and the higher end Primaluna amps 300/400 play really well with Tannoys. Can’t comment on the 200 - haven’t heard it. I nearly purchased a set of Tannoys before settling on Spatial Audio M3 Sapphire. I don’t think the Spatials are available yet in the UK.
The tube suggestions above are good as well. I swapped out the stock 12AU7 gain tubes for Brimar CV4003 and immediately noticed a more defined top end and slightly more soundstage depth. I recently rolled in a set of KT120 power tubes and noticed more detail from lows to highs and more power and weight in the bass. The KT150s are a step up in horsepower from the 120s. You have to remove the tube cage to use the 150s, so not the best choice if you have young kids around which is why I haven’t tried them.
if you’re new to tube amps you might be a little intimidated about the idea of swapping tubes. Don’t be - it doesn’t require any special skill set. Just gently but firmly pull the old tubes out and gently but firmly seat the new tubes in. Just don’t get in the habit of swapping tubes out every other week, which over time will start to degrade the sockets. Put them in and leave them in. |
I own a PrimaLuna power amplifier. The stock Chinese EL 34 tubes sound like crap. Very anemic. I don’t care what Deal says. Buy a quad set of Tung Sol KT 150’s. HUGE, TALKING NIGHT N DAY DIFFERENCE. You’ll hear bass you didn’t know your speakers were capable of producing. Also, you’ll have to remove the tube cage with the large and tall “Christmas looking KT 150 bulbs”. Instant horse power! You can thank me later…. |
|
Thanks and I am sure you are right, it’s hard to make the right decision sometimes and we always seem to be looking for something, whatever we have. That’s the nature of this hi fi disease. |
So, $1800 for Cyrus, $2200 for PL Prologue, $4k vs $3k, so assuming higher cost components and separates makes sense. Sounds like you'll always doubt the PL Evo, regret not purchasing the PL and Cyrus. I'd say go with the combo you already enjoyed.
|
I will have anther go at swapping the input tubes, they solid though. Apparently the was ex display and never used, it certainly looked untouched out of the box. Just answer an earlier question, the Robsons sounded great through a PL Prologue Pre amp with Cyrus X Power amp. In hind sight, maybe I should have gone for that combo and it may have been a whole different story. |
PL has a warm, pleasant sound. To my ears, it was not too detailed. It is a good amp in my opinion to mate with modern loudspeakers that are detailed, analytical and bright as it balanced those things out nicely.
But I too found that over time PL was not exactly what I was looking for. I would, however, recommend trying different power tube variants if you can afford it. |
Try gently rocking them back and forth in all directions while pulling upwards. |
Thanks for digging up the info on my speakers and also for the mismatch info. I have tried to swap around the input tubes as suggested and I can’t budge them. I am frightened to use too much force incase I damage something I thought they should easily pull out but I seriously can’t move them. |
There is an interaction between your speakers and the tube amp because the tube amp should be strong in the midrange unless a mismatch occurs, which is what you are experiencing.
|
Robson Opulus rated as 8ohm nominal, 5ohm minimum impedance, therefore, no steep impedance curve. 86db sensitivity pretty low. Still, the Evo 200 should be driving these speakers pretty good, just need to turn up volume pot a bit more than usual.
I have PL Dialogue Four, diy modded with boutique caps and Takman resistors. Even in stock form certainly wasn't reticent in midrange to extent what you're hearing, I also own custom built 300B SET and 845 SET amps to compare with. I'd wager you have worn output tubes, and KT family may be best for those speakers, EL 34 most romantic of any tube for that amp. otherwise just not good match. If it was me, I'd try KT in the Evo before giving up, that integrated should match well with impedance of the Robson, just need more volume which the KT family will give. Again, the EL34, worn or not may be your issue. Buying another tube integrated in the price range your talking about isn't going to make some sort of sea change.
|
Thanks again for your comments and suggestions. There is a lot to take on board, so please forgive me for not replying to each response, I am not sure how to do that but I appreciated every one of them. There seems a lot more to owning a tube amplifier than I ever could have imagined. Thanks. |
I demoed the Prima Luna Evo 300 against four other tube integrated amps; see https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/integrated-tube-amp-demo-follow-up. In comparison, I found the Evo 300 to be somewhat veiled, or "muffled", in its sound just as you have. BTW, I have now moved on to a Pass Labs XA 30.8, with Conrad Johnson preamp, which is another giant step up in sound quality. |
Also:
Tech at Upscale audio said I needed a full 200 hours for the Dialogue Premium to break in.
I honestly couldn't see it covering that much ground in 50 hours but maybe I was being hasty. Anyway, glad I traded up.
|
If you feel it lacks dynamics swapping to KT88's will help open things up. I much preferred KT88's over el34's and my speakers are also 86db. I'd try those before KT120's or 150's to stay within the comfort zone of the rest of the circuit. You also mentioned that it sounds muffled which can be a characteristic of the preamp tubes, in particular the gain tubes. I'd start by swapping the gain and driver tubes if you don't have any extra 12Au7's on hand, but it's worth experimenting there as well. The preamp stage has a huge impact on sound quality, particular transparency, so don't overlook the small tubes.
|
As strange as this sounds, I had a similar experience with a PL Dialogue Premium.
After 150 hours it still sounded disappointing (mostly veiled). Preamp was a Don Sachs...so no problem there.
My (nos) Carver TFM-35 was put it back in the chain. It was easily smoother, more detailed with upper end sparkle. Gave me a lot more respect for this amp.
Decided to give PL one more chance and traded up (luckily at no cost because it's Upscale Audio) to an Evo 400. It sounded great from the first note and just got better from there. Not an ounce of hyperbole to say it was an ocean of difference from the Dialogue series.
My take: There are a lot of people who swoon over their Dialogue series, so maybe some doped ones get through QC? Otherwise I can't explain it.
Also, I have messed up the phases on the speaker wires on the PL. As mentioned, very easy to mess this up on PL.
My Salk speakers are 88db/6 ohm and dip just below 4ohms. Sounded great using 4 ohm taps for a year. Just changed to 8ohm taps and I now get a slightly better presentation in upper midrange and highs... still have good bass slam.
I use Tung Sol 7581A. A little upgrade from stock EL34. More upper end sparkle, same midrange smoothness...a shade more deep bass. Less power though.
A word about Primaluna: if you're looking for ultimate in detail...look elsewhere. These are fun, smooth and romantic sounding amps with good bass slam.
|
Thanks for all the great responses, if I could figure out how to answer them individually,I would. Some great suggestions and a lot to think about and work on. Just to say, the Robson Acoustics speakers are beautiful, as you can see on their website, they are just so difficult to partner and the Evo 200 just can’t do it. It is so frustrating because I think I have two excellent products but they just don’t like each other. I don’t feel that I should tweak with the Evo, since it is still in its 30 day return period and they have agreed to take it back for a full refund if I am not happy with it. Sadly, I think that is the way to go and then trade up to something else. Many thanks for all your help, you guys are awesome and I am absolutely hooked on the tube sound. |
