Funny you ask. I have a love hate relationship. I absolutely love the sound. I have been solid state guy for 40+ years. Tried a PL Dialouge Premuim HP Integrated. Loved it. Blew a circuit in 30 days. Sent it back to Upscale, and replaced it w/ an Evo 400 preamp. Stopped working today. Don't know why. I'll be sending it back under the 60 day trial period also ( had it for less than 30 days). Upscale has been more than helpful. Just bad luck I guess.
PRIMA LUNA AMPLIFIERS
Hi
I,m thinking of buying a Prima Luna amplifier but worried re reliability, and what you do in the UK if you have problems.
Would like to hear what owners think about reliability, tube changes , tube upgrades, potential problems,
And what happened if you had problems re after sales repair and support.
i,m going to use them with Proac D20 r floorstanders .
Thanks in advance for your help
I,m thinking of buying a Prima Luna amplifier but worried re reliability, and what you do in the UK if you have problems.
Would like to hear what owners think about reliability, tube changes , tube upgrades, potential problems,
And what happened if you had problems re after sales repair and support.
i,m going to use them with Proac D20 r floorstanders .
Thanks in advance for your help
72 responses Add your response
I have a set of PL Prologue 6 monos driving a pair of MB Quart Vera VS 1F as my second system and I use Blue JJ EL 34s and occasionally KT88s. Right now I have PSVane KT 88 Ty II in there. Both have their benefits and weak spots. Love the PLs, lots and lots of good stuff no doubt about it and I am not knocking them with the below. I also own the Carver Crimson 350s as my 1* system driving Carver Amazing Silvers.Why don"t you look at and seriously consider Carver"s new 275. It's has a 5 yr warranty INC tubes, (nobody else I know of does that), 4 KT 120 power tubes,hand built, with hand wound transformers, made in USA, point to point wiring 75 w/ch and is voiced like the 350s just less power, and $6750 less, At $2750 is less than most PLs and IMO a much better amp in almost all areas. I saw a preowed on AM for $2100 + or - . That would be a great bargain, it's a bargain at $2750. I believe Frank (ceo Carver Corp) would probably transfer the warranty if you asked him. Carver takes care of their customers new or preowned better than any audio corp I've dealt with. It will drive those ProAcs with ease BestMark |
I own Primaluna Dialogue Premium preamp and HP amp. Built like a tank and not one hiccup in all the time I've had them. The A/C offset killer circuit keeps them nice and quite. I removed all the stock Chinese made tubes for NOS (new old stock) vintage tubes. Mullard, Telefunken, Amperex. Much better in my experience. Heft, tone, detail. They sound warm and lush without sacrificing detail. Better bass and midrange. Contact Andy Bowman at Vintage Tube Services. He will steer you in the right direction. |
The switch is for EL34 or KT-88 bias. The KT-120 & KT-150 are a whole different tube than the KT-88. The 120 & 150 use up to 25% more heater current. Unless the amp has a regulated heater supply capable of supplying the increased load, an un-regulated supply may struggle with the extra current. If the amp can supply the current for 150's with an unregulated supply, then the heater voltage for the EL34 and drivers is way too high.I'm not sure what to tell you from a technical standpoint. But that Primaluna advertise being able to use KT120 and KT150 tubes with their amps and many have success doing so. |
Sharing a recent post from the PL Steve Hoffman Forums with some very cool pics of the PL Evo 400 with the KT 150s, as well as an innovative solution for the cage. See page 8. Thanks to @zurv https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/primaluna-evolution-series.824596/page-8#post-24225408 |
" I can't speak to the Cayin, which I have heard is made at the same plant, but the unconfirmed rumors are that Cayin uses differently sourced parts and is not just a PrimaLuna with a different name slapped on it. One distinction to be made here is that Cayin is completely owned by the Chinese government (part of the the CATIC group), while Prima Luna is only manufactured in factories owned by the Chinese government. So with Prima Luna, you are making less of a contribution to the cause! Not an issue to most probably but something to keep in mind when making a choice between the two. |
There is a switch on the side for low and high output tubes. EL34 being low output, and KT120, KT150 etc. are considered high output.The switch is for EL34 or KT-88 bias. The KT-120 & KT-150 are a whole different tube than the KT-88. The 120 & 150 use up to 25% more heater current. Unless the amp has a regulated heater supply capable of supplying the increased load, an un-regulated supply may struggle with the extra current. If the amp can supply the current for 150's with an unregulated supply, then the heater voltage for the EL34 and drivers is way too high. Power is determined by the power supply. Adding a beefier tube does not increase the power. Sonics may change depending on the design and transformers. Additionally, general tube rolling advice is not worth the bits to transmit. Tubes from the same batch vary widely. Tubes change continuously. What is golden in one amp may be less than stellar in another. |
@ shahram - missed answering your question: |
I can't speak to the Cayin, which I have heard is made at the same plant, but the unconfirmed rumors are that Cayin uses differently sourced parts and is not just a PrimaLuna with a different name slapped on it.
Correct, Both are made by Spark Labs,, both look simliar in design,, but that does not at all mean they will present music as equals. I am going with the Cayin SC6 pre vs the PL Evo 100. I have a cayin cd17 Mark 1 past 15 years and had no issues, built like a tank, with nice resolution,,although i did spend $$$ on new Mundorf Caps and Sparksolab Descrete opamps,,I plan to add a new PL cd player next year. |
There is a switch on the side for low and high output tubes. EL34 being low output, and KT120, KT150 etc. are considered high output. Put the new tubes in, flip the switch and you've got like 30 more watts to play with. But really the watts don't matter much. It's the tighter control on woofers that you will likely notice first. And |
Thank you @shahram. I don’t think it will fit with the cage on the evo 400 as well. @ieales - appreciate the challenge. Being a Tube Newb, I absolutely do not have the tools or knowledge. However, I purchased the PL evo 400 for its auto bias design and the marketing slogan on it being so easy to use that even a tube newb would be able to roll tubes easily. My only intent is to get more power to my speakers and get increased dynamics/bass response from them. |
ksubrama: The 150 draws considerably more heater current than the EL34. Can the amp supply it? The operating point will change which will change the distortion considerably. Do you have the tools / know how to adjust the amplifier to optimize for 150's? Just WHAT do you expect to achieve other than a thinner wallet? |
This review with KT150s of the Dialogue Premium says the cage cannot be closed using KT150s. https://www.hifi-advice.com/blog/review/analog-reviews/amplifier-reviews/primaluna-dialogue-premium-tube-rolling-part-1/ |
I recently purchased an evo 400 integrated and am currently running it with the stock el34 tubes (happily I might add). I am about to purchase a pair of the Focal Sopra 2s and am considering rolling to the KT150s. Question: With the uptick in tube size, can the Evo’s cage still be closed with 8 x KT150s in there? |
I recently purchased a used Evo 400 and am extremely satisfied. I have been a audiophool since the seventies and have had countless amps. I can't see ever giving up this amp. I have replaced the stock el34's with kt77's and also the two main 12au7's with some nos radiotechnique . Just a heavenly sound. I also agree with other posters that this thing is built like a tank. |
I bought a new PrimaLuna Prologue Four from the 'deals' section on Upscale Audio, just a couple weeks ago. I bought to match with my new Zu Omen Def. Mine was open box, paid $1,200. Screaming deal. Anyhoots, since then, I've inserted KT120, for curiosity. I emailed PL who told me to adjust the autobias screw on the circuit board. No need to do that unless 120s are inserted. Fortunately I own a digital multimeter, the explanations are within the 'tube rolling' section on the PL website. I'm also rolling the little tubes, again out of curiosity. Everything is breaking in, including new Zu cables, so I'm just enjoying the sound in the meanwhile. May post update in a month or two. Actually of course now I'm thinking of PL monoblocks, like lots of us PL owners. 8 years ago I owned a PL integrated, wish I had kept it. I bet it's still going strong for someone. Long story short: PLs are amazing products! You cannot go wrong! |
Hi Goldfish, You may want to look on the market section of Audiogon and find a used unit in the eastern part of the US that would ship cheaper and below new cost. Given their reliability, it is a relatively safe bet. If the unit is still under warranty and it can transfer to a new owner, even better, but I don’t know company policy in that regard. Check Audiogon and US Audiomart. There is one in New York and one in Pennsylvania. |
+1 here. I had a Dialogue One for 4 years, and traded up to the Dialogue Premium HP. I've had that for 2 years, and it's staying. I've never had a failure of any kind, and the sound is amazing. If I were to sell it, I'd be buying up the Primaluna line. But, I doubt that will happen... it's great as is. |
I just picked up a PrimaLuna HP amplifier off a fellow Audiogon member that has been sitting in my car for the last week while I’ve been traveling for work. Although, I have yet to listen to it in my own system, all the reading I have done on the Forums have been glowing which was what drew me into purchase. I’ll be rolling some KT-150s, KT-120s and EL34 winged C SED tubes, paired with a restored McIntosh C20 pre. Interested to hear how it preforms with a more modern amplifier. No reason to believe |
I have to throw another vote for the PrimaLuna DiaLogue Premier HP. I have been hankering to see how a tube amp sounded in my system with Focal Utopia Diablo III's over my SS Class A amp. The local dealer brought one over and hooked it up. I am always skeptical of "this X blew me away" but in reality, the PrimaLuna had a better soundstage, more realistic sound and improved imaging. I was truly surprised at the difference and bought one. They are built like tanks, with point to point wiring, and various bells and whistles designed to make tube ownership easy. I had a tube start to fail in the first week, and the "bad tube indicator" immediately showed me which one was failing. I had a new replacement from Upscale in two days. It is a truly great amp that punches way above its price. It drives my Focal's with no problem as well as the Joseph Audio Pulsars that I am checking out in my system. Having been an SS guy for my whole life, I now love my PrimaLuna. Think that you need more than 75 watts? Buy 2 and use them as mono blocks with 145 watts per amp by throwing a switch. I can't speak to the Cayin, which I have heard is made at the same plant, but the unconfirmed rumors are that Cayin uses differently sourced parts and is not just a PrimaLuna with a different name slapped on it. |
I’ve had a PrimaLuna Dialogue Premium pre-amp and HP for a year of heavy listening (8-12 hours per day) everyday. About two months ago I added a second HP to mono-block into ATC SCM-19V2s. I rolled the EL34s to KT150s even though the EL34s sounded great the KT150s sound phenomenal at whatever volume level I am listening. I have had zero service issues. They drive the tubes so gently, Kevin Deal said that the KT150s should last more than two years, the smaller tubes 4-5 years. You also have so many power tube options. They all provide a different coloration and power. The switch on the side of the amp gives you that flexibility. But with the KT150s I feel like I have reached Nirvana. Check the forums. You’ll never see anyone complaining about them. And nobody is reselling them. Don’t settle for Chinese counterfeits, they really are not as good but much, much cheaper. If I change my listening room and speakers I feel confident that the PLs will do fine. Bottom Line. They sound great. They won’t break. I don’t plan on having to repair or replace these. Rollin |
I own the Dialogue Premium Integrated HP version and the music it creates is just perfect. Prior to the HP I had the Dialogue Premium Integrated (4 power tubes as opposed to 8) for 3 yers with absoultely zero issues and when I sold it recouped 80% of my new purchase price and it is still humming along just fine! Buy the PL..... |
I got a pair of Prologue 6 mono-blocks plus a Dialogue Premium Preamp, driving my Focal Sopra 2 with magical sounds. Had lighting strike last year and my AV receiver was toasted, and these suckers still standing with no issues. So my money ended up going for a new receiver, instead of the initial plan of upgrading the Prologue 6 to Dialogue Premium HP mono-blocks. Will do so once I saved up some cash! So I think you’d be more likely to change tubes more frequently due to tastes (typically tubes last more than 2 years), instead of changing these amps due to their solid reliability. |
Thanks i,l l write that down, and talk to dealers, I’ve had such a great positive response from Prima Luna owners that I feel confident. just got to audition one with different speakers. we have a valve dealer here called Watford Valves who have USA military grade valves for hi fi so will talk to them anything but a bright brittle sound confusingly loved by modern hi fi manufacturing ! |
don't forget if you want to get more of an organic sound from the PL amps or any amp for that matter, need to replace the coupling caps with Jensen or Jupiter copper foil caps. Not sure about the latest EVO amps but the dialogue and prologue used SCR and clone SCR type caps. Very reliable, but not very musical sounding. There has also been quite a swing in Chinese tube quality over the last 8-10 years. Today's tubes are quite good, and do not have that thin, bright brittle sound the earlier chinese tubes were known for. happy listening. |
Thanks yeah zombie minds I listened to hi fi magazine 5 star hi fi combinations, absolutely terrible! The salesmen accused me of wanting a woolly sound ! no! Just a life like sounding system. its mass hysteria,your told it’s great so you believe it,sorry to admit it happened to with monitor audio silver 6 and roksan K3 amp brittle bright sound. real music as you say sounds full Rich resonating wood strings and where are tone controls? i didn’t want to spend so much, but there is no option If you want to enjoy smooth sounds! Thanks again |