Thanks to the 179 who took the time to complete the One Minute (okay, TWO minute) Survey. If one thing was clear to me after designing the survey and collecting results is that this is one elite group, with a collection some of the most NOTE-worthy music systems on the planet.
It was no surprise that not everyone shares the same opinion on this subject. There are those who feel premium power cables were on the order of magnitude of migrating prerecorded music from the cylinder to the disc. And, others who feel that premium power cords are the industry equilivent of Pinto exploding gas tanks.
Rather than a plea for decorum, which has been done before (not always with the best outcomes), I’d like to request sometihing a little different. A request that we minimize our energy and emotion related to the specific subject matter at hand, make it somewhat generic, and encorporate "newer thinking" where we maximize the benefit of our time shared together on these forums. Particularly on subjects where we disagree. It’s been said: "It’s better to invite someone tell you what’s right about their viewpoint than to tell them what’s wrong with it."
I’d like to begin with the premise that those who contribute here feel they have something to say. Sure there are "opinions" and "rebuttals" that may be entertaining, but we have the most to gain when contributions add something of value to others in the group. The "best of the best" are actionable items where the reader not only has something to learn, but is compelled to take some action to improve the performance of their systems.
As mentioned earlier, this is an elite group of audio enthusiasts. Some of the best ears in high performance audio, with the brain matter to go along with them. I’d like to suggest that those claim who "hear" sonic differences actually DO hear them. And, those who don’t hear something magical happening, actually NO NOT hear it. The correct response in my view is not to immediately challenge the person and their perspective, but rather ask the question: "What are they hearing that I’m not hearing, and why am I not hearing it?" Or, the inverse. Assuming BOTH questions are valid, then take the conversation to another level. "Tell me about your system. Your location. Your room." The ideal scenario would be to place yourself IN the environment in question to listen for yourself. You may find that you heard nothing of interest. Or, you may find the person did, in fact, hear something pretty amazing. In most cases, the logistics will prevent this from happening. So, we can only share our viewpoints, among gentlemen that we share indulgences with and hopefully those receiving our communications are willing to allow us to tell them what we feel is right about our experiences.
That being said, there are those on the survey with a very high degree of certainty that their observations were correct. Some on the positive side. And, some on the negative side. Hopefully, we can upgrade the conversation from "disbelief and delusion" to "curiosity and willingness to experiment." I hope we learn more about ourselves from the survey and find even more ways to connect in a positive way.
Thanks for all who contributed.
John
A little "housekeeping issue". The "dashboard" link below will take you to the results of the survey. The couldn’t figure out how to edit the font size, so some of the text is crammed together. I hope there is enough information there to make it discernable.
I get it. I find myself forced to take several "exits" before the gear I really want. I want all the "Hertz" I can get, with as little "hurts" to my checkbook as possible.
Besides, if you tried "the really good stuff" at home, you just might be so overwhelmed with the SQ improvements that you’ll loose control of your bladder (or worse!!). That could be quite embarrassing, and I wouldn’t want to be responsible for it.
Once again: Some companies offer a 30 Day Satisfaction Guarantee, so- those that are ACTUALLY INTERESTED, have absolutely nothing to lose, by trying (experimenting with) such*.
While I am in total agreement that you can get much better than OEM SQ out there for under $50, don’t deprive yourself the opportunity to try the really good stuff at home, in your system. You might discover that they were well worth the investment.
I’m thinking of setup up a GoFundMe page for guys who have never listened to premium PCs and/or couldn’t hear a difference in their system to fly them out to A’Goners who have system(s) where premium PCs have been undeniably impactful. Maybe, just maybe, maybe, they’ll hear what PC adopters are hearing?
Theories have never proven or disproven anything. It’s INVARIABLY testing and experimentation that proves or disproves theories/hypotheses.
Spot on. Over centuries, everything starts from testing and experiments. Then come theories. Until they are proven (more often than not). Then it becomes a fact. Science
The Naysayer Church HATES it, when THAT happens!
Normal. That’s their job. What happens when experimentation, then theory, then proof, then “science”? Business as usual, they move on to the next thing to bitch and moan like nothing happened
No one can tell you whether/how your system, room and/or ears will respond to some new addition. There are simply too many variables.
LIKEWISE: no one can possibly know whether a new addition (ie: some kind of disc, crystal, fuse, interconnect, speaker cable, etc) will make a difference, in their system and room, with their media and to their ears, without trying them for themselves.
Some companies offer a 30 Day Satisfaction Guarantee, so- those that are actually interested, have absolutely nothing to lose, by trying (experimenting with) such.
Anyone that knows anything about the sciences, realizes that something like 96% of what makes up this universe, remains a mystery.
For centuries; humanity’s seen, heard, felt and otherwise witnessed phenomena, that none of the best minds could explain, UNTIL they developed a science or measurement, that could explain it.
The Naysayer Church wants you to trust their antiquated science (1800’s electrical theory) and faith-based, religious doctrine, BLINDLY ("Trust ME!").
Theories have never proven or disproven anything. It’s INVARIABLY testing and experimentation that proves or disproves theories/hypotheses.
IF you’re interested in the possibility of improving your system’s presentation, have a shred of confidence in your capacity for perceiving reality and trust your own senses: actually TRY whatever whets your aural appetite, FOR YOURSELF.
@waytoomuchstuff "So, some systems may sound better with PC upgrades.”
I debugged many PC problems, mostly were related to bad contacts, some to dielectric degradation, etc. From electronic device prospective, PC is not different than any other functionality/degradation/aging problem, such as speaker protection relay resistance, too resistive fuse, internal contacts oxidation issue, degraded soldering, or similar issues.
I am pessimistic about sure “PC upgrade”, if we talk about functional/healthy unit of recognized reliable high end brand. Some of brands “bad" PC replacement cost is $500+, some have power cord hardwired w/o IEC..
And, just when I thought it was safe to jump back in the forum ...
My intent with the survey was to gather a consensus of the adoption rate of premium PCs in the group. This was not a data-driven exercise but, rather, an attempt to discover how committed the group is to this product category. Some of the results were not surprising, some were.
The approach was "light" and an attempt a humor, with the artificially induced premise that a "conspiracy theory" may be attached to the introduction and adoption of "premium/audiophile" power cables. My conclusion is that the enthusiastic adoption of this product category by seasoned audiophiles does NOT involve a "conspiracy theory" -- nor confirmation bias, mind tricks, emotional trauma, or basic insecurity. People heard what they heard. One way or the other, the results are reliable, IMHO.
So, some systems may sound better with PC upgrades. Some systems may not. Some components (relative to price/quality/design) may sound better with PCs. Some may not.
Looking forward to another survey (by others) on other topics in the future. This was fun to do. And, informative. Well worth the $100 investment to make it happen.
Only question I would have added is if/when you changed the component, did the premium cable still have the same effect/impact.
You have to understand what a cable does what it does an why a component can sound better. Then you will begin to understand how to build your system. Next do some research on who manufacturers the wire used by these manufacturers, and how they vary in design. Out side cable, inside dampening, twisting, straight wire, solid core, stranded wire, etc. It is not rocket science.
Reminds of the time I was "inquisitive" about a car and decided to check it out. Then, when I got there, I remembered I had my checkbook with me. Lesson learned. I'll make a point to leave my checkbook at home when I audition the Fynes. Thanks for the warning.
Thanks, kindly. Your post reminded me I need to make some changes in my system profile, but the Fynes are still here and they are indeed quite excellent, as well as being efficient and very "amp friendly." I've heard some great solid state amps on them, but really do prefer them with tubes. Try to hear a pair if you can. I flew to Florida to audition the 704s, and within two hours, I was writing a check.
Looks like I missed something "interesting" with the deleted post. Guess I need to check for comments more often.
Very nice system by the way. Haven't heard the Fynes, but the "speaker geek" in me was doing cartwheels. They're probably not shy about presenting a lot of musical energy (and, detail) into the room?
You are not alone. There were more than one respondent who owns premium PCs and not convinced they make a difference. I can appreciate your answer. It might have been an interesting question to find out why people added premium PCs to their systems given no perceivable sonic benefit in their view.
Since you’ve had time to listen to your system for an expended period of time with the premium PCs installed, it might be an interesting experiment to revert back to the OEM cords and listen again? Might be a fun way to spend an afternoon/evening?
"Other" responses to the question: "If you have NOT purchased a premium power cable, what is holding you back?
"The Romex in my walls, as well as the miles of wire to the power station, are not premium."
" make my own. I borrowed Nordost Tyr 2 power cords and they made the whole system VERY diffuse and lost bass. I tried it on my audiomagic conditioner, my integrated amp and my dac. Same result to varying levels."
"Being an electrical engineer I know better. The only benefit the larger/better power cables have are the ability to handle higher current and voltage loads....NOTHING MORE."
"All showed 0 significance"
"Just do not know / not convinced which one to buy"
"I tried them and they didn’t work"
"Isolation transformers do the same job, but better. I use three."
"other methods of mitigating high frequency noise"
"Premium power cords are part of the basic tool set of the audiophile, without them you will not be able to reach the potential of your system"
Thanks to those who took the time to provide a detailed response to the question.
I have no doubt that I would fail a blind listening test with A versus B power chords. Having said that, I did spend what I consider to be real money ($200-$300 per chord) to purchase entry-level "premium" power chords. They look good, and fit well, and I am satisfied that I didn't skimp entirely, given that my overall system cost is around $35k.
Years ago I had some Stax headphones and their matching amp. I bought some kind of expensive power cord for it. I honestly couldn't detect any change in the sound. I tried really hard to hear something but didn't get even the subtlest of impressions of a difference. It could be that that Stax and some other speaker amps I used it with later just didn't need whatever that cord was doing, or it wasn't the right power cord that would have helped them in some way. I liked the look and feel of the power cord. It was definitely better built than anything I'd had before and it inspired confidence. One downside with it was that it was so thick and stiff it could push whatever it was plugged into around, making it difficult to put devices just where I wanted without them being pushed sideways.
In contrast to the power cord, I really did perceive what I felt was a very significant difference when using some expensive silver interconnect cables. That difference completely disappeared when I did a blind comparison to some super cheap cables. I don't know if this happens to everyone buy my hearing perception changes a lot from day to day, and sometimes over the course of just a few minutes. I've done listening comparisons where I've heard something really good from one component, then switching to the other component the sound has seriously degraded. So I go back to the first component but the sound remains seriously degraded. This used to happen to me when I played string bass too. The instrument would sound rich and warm and then start to sound really edgy and raspy. I really think it was just me and my unstable perception of sound quality. My ear's sensitivity to different frequency ranges changes, and this can be because of psychosomatic effects or just purely physical processes. My sinuses seem to be in a constant state of flux, as is my hearing.
The survey was embedded with a lot of data. Unfortunately, these details are not easy to share.
Here's an item of interest:
Of the 32 responses who indicated low, or very low expectations (negative bias) related to premuim power cables
12 heard no difference.
19 heard "significant" or "awesome" results. 2 heard "good" results
Of the "heard no difference" group, 3 indicated they didn't listen. 2 of those listened to only 1 system, and 4 were "not sure, could have gone either way" in their findings.
Not trying to bend the results in any particular direction. Just sharing what the survey showed.
Great results from a great survey. Nice to know I think and hear like the majority who honestly responded to the survey enforcing the notion that it's not casual in the least and therefore not so easy to dismiss out of hand, unless you're a nag.
My responses were closer to the majority or 2nd ranking more so than I expected. I.e., I don't have a higher-end PC for every component nor have I spent a fortune.
That’s because the ABX test wasn’t designed as a hearing test, but as a protocol to test devices: the Device Under Test. If you want to test a listener’s hearing, that’s a job for an audiologist.
Couldn’t have said it better. +1000. That’s a key fact the ASR crowd of the “clear thinkers “ don’t get. Either by ignorance (best case scenario) or simply on purpose
Dang! I thought I was the one that got under people's skin. Premium power cables get the same consideration as the rest of our system. We purchase the best equipment we feel is appropriate for our budget and our system. Some are satisfied with what is supplied and some want to chase perfection. There really is no right or wrong. Only what is best for you. I'm not going to chastise anyone for their opinion. I personally have two higher end cables. I will purchase more as I am able. In the meantime kick back and enjoy your efforts.
There are a sufficient number of reasonable and intelligent people testifying to hearing something that even with all the variables involved, there should be a high confidence that changing power cords can "make a difference" to sound.
That's very well stated. Unfortunately, there are those that simply dismiss all the empirical evidence, as this thread reveals.
the survey has no value as a determinant of whether changing power cords can make a difference to sound.
That's overstated, in my opinion. There are a sufficient number of reasonable and intelligent people testifying to hearing something that even with all the variables involved, there should be a high confidence that changing power cords can "make a difference" to sound. "Make a difference" is a very low bar, of course.
I don’t believe this survey was ever intended to prove whether power cables change or improve the quality of sound, but to share the opinions and trends of the community.
Surely, that's too wan a statement. Share opinions and trends? About what? About cables and whether they can change or improve sound. Otherwise, are we just opining for the sake of opining?
The survey was about something and it showed something. It is not precise about what it shows or how much, but it's a start.
@waytoomuchstuff- Txs for the effort. Ignore those taking potshots
@blisshifi I'd be interested in participating in any of these surveys you proposed
"I will be interested to know more about peoples’ listening behaviors, consideration and purchase behaviors, and what their “real life” audiophile communities look like."
@waytoomuchstuffThanks so much. Now I know where I am on the scale of audiphiles🤣.
and for the community in general, personally I try to abide by the posit: "who's crazier, the crazy person? or the person arguing with the crazy person?" I have a lot less arguments when asking myself this question.
... the purpose of a blind test is to determine whether one individual can hear differences with his hearing ...
That is a misnomer. Yes, you could conduct a blind test with a single listener, but it would only yield a single data point. Most researchers who conduct ABX listening tests - I’m talking about people like Toole and the folks at Harmon - conduct tests with panels of listeners. That’s because the ABX test wasn’t designed as a hearing test, but as a protocol to test devices: the Device Under Test. If you want to test a listener’s hearing, that’s a job for an audiologist.
I’ve noticed on A’gon that the purpose and value of blind testing is often misunderstood or, perhaps, deliberately twisted. In any event, lacking one should never be used to bludgeon those who have no use for them, which includes many of us here. And remember: an improperly conducted blind test offers no added value over sighted listening.
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