Power cords or power conditioner

@secretguy @jasonbourne52 

"If changing an interconnect or power cord brought a real sonic improvement it would be a wonderful world indeed! Alas ..."

What a wonderful world we live in!

Yah...and the election was stolen.

When I was getting back into Audio a few years ago, I purchased a $100 Silnote power cord for a NuForce STA-200. The change was HUGE! My deaf mother and father could have probably heard the difference.

Pass Labs and First Watt includes a very substantial generic power cord with his amplifiers. I have tried various power cords with his amps, some I liked a little better than the included cord and others I did not. In several emails, I attempted to get Nelson Pass to recommend an aftermarket power for his equipment. He has always stated that the cord he sends out is very good, but never indicated that there might be cords that some might like better. Getting into the power cord recommendation business might be a rabbit hole that Nelson does not want to travel.

In my system the BorderPartrol DAC responded quite well to a aftermarket power cord.

From my experience, Horn speakers and single driver speakers are more resolving than other more conventional speakers and tend to reveal changes in cabling more readily.

To disagree with the double naught spy crowd; in a good resolving system it all matters.

Fwiw, you might want to consider adding a subwoofer into your rig. That alone will change the depth and scale of the presentation.

@coachpoconnor , well put. And I’ve experienced the phenomenon that you have, with your system becoming WAY more sensitive to certain variables as you upgrade it to become more resolving. In my case this happened when I upgraded to Nordost Valhalla 2 speaker cables, from Clarus Crimson Biwire’s. I had them pre burned-in by my dealer, and connected them up late at night and was floored at the detail and the 3D soundstage depth that they exposed. Everything became clear and snapped into focus. Woke up next day and was excited to listen again over morning coffee, and…. What the hell? What happened to my soundstage depth? Everything is compressed and foggy now! I thought I might be imagining it but then I tried again late at night and again I was treated to a mesmerizing and holographic experience. After a few weeks of this I realized my incoming power is cleaner at night when my neighborhood is asleep. Bought a Torus, installed dedicated lines, and now all is (mostly) well. In that now it sounds great in the day and I can’t complain. But it STILL sounds best at night. I think most have this experience, for those who have highly resolving systems.

And to your point, after upgrading to the Valhalla 2 speaker cables, there is no doubt the differences in power cords became magnified.  It’s not the highest impact component in the system, but I do find power cords can have a profound impact soundstage depth, and the 3D presentation of vocals and instruments, and the “air” around vocals and instruments.

@jl1ny   I have a JL Audio Fathom 113V2.  At first I was only using it with the Datasat for HT.  A few days ago I used the pre out on the Luxman to see how it would integrate.  Let's just say it is still connected to the Luxman.  

While the KEFs have nice bass, the addition of the 113 just made everything so much better!  

@nyev  My Shunyata Triton V3 arrives tomorrow, along with a Shunyata Alpha XC PC for the conditioner.  I will soon see if there is any black magic with a conditioner.  Seeing that I live in Chicago, and 3/4 of a block from my house is a busy main street for my neighborhood.  I have a hard time believing I have clean power.  

While I don't have any auditable noise coming out of my speakers.  I do from time to time get transistor hum from my amps.  The McIntosh amp was the worst, my ATI amps it's rare and the Luxman never makes a sound.  Either way I'm sure there is room for improvement. 

@wheelndeal1099 , good luck and let us know the results. Try to resist making any judgements for at least a week if not longer, and leave your system on quietly.

I always get impatient and make rush judgements when trying new gear. My final assessment after at least a week with it is rarely consistent with my initial assessment (although my amp was an exception, as it was awesome from the start and remained that way).

After burn-in and after you adjust, try removing the new cord and conditioner and then see what you think.

Also - AC noise (THD) is not something you consciously hear from your speakers in most cases. But when it’s removed, if effective in your system, you may notice a quietness that surrounds vocals and instruments that wasn’t there before, allowing more detail, air and soundstage depth to come through. I agree with others that connecting amps to conditioners is detrimental to them (except for Torus which is not a conditioner), but your results could easily vary. Nothing is a sure thing in this hobby.

Also - AC noise (THD) is not something you consciously hear from your speakers in most cases. But when it’s removed, if effective in your system, you may notice a quietness that surrounds vocals and instruments that wasn’t there before, allowing more detail, air and soundstage depth to come through.

@nyev - that is usually my first clue that a system is getting good.
When the system has a sort of quietness, but the SPL meter is high and one cannot hold a conversation… that is pretty good sign that the distortion is not wildly high.

I have had some expensive audience and shunyatas.I remember my first run with a simple hydra 4.It was like ok this is something i can get use to...it still remains the simple effective box after all these years of not having one and installing one i had bought a couple weeks ago.Triton 3 and cable should be off the charts....hope it makes for a great experience for you WD1099

I would start with the room and speaker positioning then you can better determine the effects of various changes, like power cords and conditioners. By the way, I have a Torus AVR, replaced my Shunyata conditioner. Sounds great by letting the music flow.
 

As for optimizing your room, read articles from Art Noxon of Acoustical Sciences Corporation (ASC). I would start with diffusion across the soundstage, back wall behind the listening position and at the fist reflection points on the side walls and ceiling. I would also use base traps in each corner. 
 

Be prepared to spend as much as you would on a component upgrade. 

@labpro :

I would start with diffusion across the soundstage, back wall behind the listening position and at the fist reflection points on the side walls and ceiling

Interesting. You are doing Diffusors (not absorbers) on the side walls (first reflection points)?

Hello Thyname,

not shire if you have used tube traps. They have an absorption side and a reflective side. As you turn them, you get more of one or the other.

For the ceiling and front soundstage, I use RPG skyline.

I am not sure what "not shire" means. Did you mean "not sure if you have used tube traps"?

I have the following GIK panels (4" on the front wall and 6" on the back wall): 

They are a combination absorber / diffuser / bass trap. They can be turned around too, to only get absorption and no diffusion. But I do strictly use absorbers only (4" 242s) on the side walls and my ceiling. Maybe time to experiment moving things around

Gonna agree with some and and offer some of my experience.

1) As above, first thing is to experiment with speaker placement.  Definitely do this, take a couple of hours and test out different positions, separations etc to get a feel for how it changes things in your room.

2) Get hold of a Puritan PSM156 on demo or sale and return. Brilliant piece of kit.  Will add clarity first, then image second in my experience.  A reasonable priced bit of kit.  Try out the ultimate power cable supplying it too if you can, although std cable is no slouch.

3)  Ultimate upgrade for stereo image is Fo.Q TA-102 thick tape.  Open up your source equipment and apply squares of it to the top of every cap you can find.  An exceptionally cheap upgrade that will by far give you what you want.  Given the budget you are considering, this will give you what you want almost for free.  Try it, its on ebay or lotususa do it I think too (https://www.lotusgroupusa.com/foq.html)

@markiew Thanks for the tip on the TA-102 tape! I’ll give it a try!

The Shinyata Triton and Alpha XC PC arrived today. I’m going to let it play for a while before I have an opinion on it. But so far I do think it is an improvement.

I also contacted the Cable Company on power cord choices. They asked what else I was running. They said my DYI cords are fine for now. But they did not like my combo of interconnects and speaker cables. They said the two couldn’t be more different and the synergy between them was probably poor. So I have some new cables on the way.

@thyname I was checking out GK Acoustics today. I like their products better than Acoustimac, that is where I have bought my treatments in the past.

They are entirely different and they both serve useful purposes.

A conditioner makes certain the power is as clean as possible.

Power cords are shielded to reduce contamination of equipment that results from AC emissions.

@wheelndeal1099 I find it interesting that TheCableCo found Transparent speaker cables and Nordost USB interconnects (not familiar with Wireworld). I’ve demo’d Nordost USB cords before and found them to be quite neutral. Not a personal fan of Transparent speaker cables (I’ve tried them), but I can’t say they are bad. Just not my thing, in my system. But I can’t think of why that combo would elicit such a strong reaction from TheCableCo. Did they explain this at all? Anyone else have experience with this combo?  What are they sending you?

Hopefully you are trying a 1.5m or longer USB cord (as I mentioned I found 1m and in particular shorter than 1m cords compress the soundstage).

@nyev I did't order a new USB cable.  That one is going to have to wait.   This is what was said to me regarding my signal cables. 

"My advice would be to bypass power cord auditions for now and try a loom of a brand that has a more balanced approach than the split personality you're running now. Nordost is all about speed, transparency and leading edge transients. Transparent blunts all of that, rounds off the edges and warms things up. However, these two together don't make anywhere near as balanced a whole as you might hope and I'd encourage you to consider listening to signal cables instead. You've got to get the signal side right before you start playing with the power side."
 

I ended up ordering an Acoustic Zen Silver Reference II XLR, and Acoustic Zen Hologram II speaker cables- Bi-Wired.  Nice thing with The Cable Company is if I don't like the sound, I can swap for something else.  However I've read a lot of people say how well both Luxman and KEF sound with this combo.   I'll soon find out. 

Was this from their landing library or you purchased it? I’d highly recommend borrowing these from them first before buying. 

I bought them.  If I am not happy with the sound of them, I will return and then go down the lending library rabbit hole!   

OP,

Congratulations on your purchase. Once you have listened to your system with your conditioner for a couple weeks… then take it out. This typically really demonstrates what it has been doing.

It is important to compare equipment critically… by switching…but

Be a bit cautious on swapping too much stuff too close in time. The real arbitrator of sound is your subconscious’ appraisal of the music through your system. But it needs just to listen with your analytical brain turned off. Hence after a couple weeks of no change it will make differences pretty obvious.

Also, given what you have said about your location. It is very likely your equipment will be very susceptible to improvements using vibration control. It need not be expensive. You can dip your toe in with Nobsound Springs under components… and move over time to stuff like Townsend Podiums.

@wheelndeal1099 thanks for relaying the suggestion from TheCableCo. That actually makes some sense. That is exactly why I went with Nordost speaker cables (speed and transparency). But I found that Nordost Valhalla 2 power cords and USB cord removed a degree of bass energy (they were otherwise very good) vs other cords so I went with AudioQuest for power cords and interconnects. I’d agree that my mix is also a split personality but in my case it seems to work as I get the best of both worlds.

Good luck, and @ghdprentice ’s advice is spot on.  Especially about trying to listen too critically when changing a bunch of variables.  I’ve definitely been guilty of doing that!  If you turn off your conscious analysis for a few weeks, the attributes the changes make will likely come to you instead of you having to seek them out, and your perceptions will likely be more accurate.

AZ Silver Ref II is a great cabie! I had these and the hologram speaker cables. As a matter of fact I had Matrix Ref II, Silver II, Absolute Copper (currently in my system). Had Lee’s Satori, Hologram and Satori shotgun speaker cables. You will like it. AZ needs a good break in of 200hrs minimum based on my experience.

Not to throw another dimension into the mix, but I recently sent my USB reclocker device (Innuos PhoenixUSB) from Innuos back to have the USB connector replaced due to a somewhat loose connection.  I bought the unit earlier this year as a store demo so I guess the loose connection is a result of that.  Hopefully they repair it under warranty.

I mention this because I’m absolutely floored by how much I miss not having the device in my system.  I don’t think I realized how much of a difference it made.  In particular higher frequency detail is clobbered, making snare drums and “air” seem rolled off and restrained.  I’m noticing less soundstage depth for sure.

It’s crazy to think that I have all this excellent gear but I can’t be happy with it without this one USB reclocker device, having become used to my system’s performance with the device in the chain.  Ultra premium streamers wouldn’t need benefit from such a device, but wow I sure miss not having it in my system!  I hope to get it back soon.

I recommend you either place the system in a better room or make the room you have acoustically neutral. You might have audio being canceled out due to reflections. I doubt the problem is with power.  I use a cheap power conditioner from Tripplight that serves me well.  You have excellent equipment. I'm Jealous. You can have the best in electronics sound crummy in a room that is not suited for it.

I recommend you either place the system in a better room or make the room you have acoustically neutral. 

@pcrhkr : great advice! Please post a picture of your system here under “Systems”. I am eager to learn from you. I am guessing you have your own dedicated audio room, with a lot of acoustic panels? I would love to see what you have accomplished with your room. Thank you

@thyname 

+1

I would like to see @pcrhkr ’s system and venue.

pcrhkr : great advice! Please post a picture of your system here under “Systems

Where is that “systems” tab?

@holmz : https://systems.audiogon.com

Love to see your highly acoustic optimized specifically built scientifically optimized room too. Happy I could help somehow by posting a link. All ears. I love science 

Shunyata just hiked prices of their power products..perhaps all products.  For example, at M.D. Delta 15amp NR power cable went from $1000 to $1500.  Pretty sure that some dealers haven't adjusted prices on their in stock items.  

Thanks for the link @thyname.
 

Love to see your highly acoustic optimized specifically built scientifically optimized room too. Happy I could help somehow by posting a link. All ears. I love science 

The only science applied was in the mathematics of avoiding hiring a divorce lawyer.
Many rooms have a Feng Shui feel that is dictated by the SO, and are not as fortunate as you to have a dedicated room.

I did upgrade/change some of the front end electronics to make them more visually appealing to the SO. (Smaller units, silver instead of black, and coordinated in look.)

and are not as fortunate as you to have a dedicated room.

What makes you think I have a dedicated room?

did upgrade/change some of the front end electronics to make them more visually appealing to the SO

Completely valid science applied mathematically 😉

What makes you think I have a dedicated room?

It took a while, but using google “systems audiogon thyname” I found a room, that does not look like what my haus-boss would abide as a multifunction room.

Hence I assumed that would be called “dedicated”.

Nyev: "Lol…. I do get a kick out of the audiosciencereview channel.  I find it amusing and utterly useless. "

Completely agree. It is not regarded seriously by those who like to listen to music.

It took a while, but using google “systems audiogon thyname” I found a room, that does not look like what my haus-boss would abide as a multifunction room.

A picture of my room is right here on my profile when I post 😂. It’s a general purpose basement, a portion of it housing my audio system. It’s all how far one is willing to go on this hobby. If one is not allowed by the SO, or the proverbial “…. wearing the pants…”, then I feel sorry about you.

Speaking of which, this has to be lamest excuse one has in this hobby. It’s used so often, even by some with No SO whatsoever 🤦‍♂️

I have an unused family room in my house that I have been thinking about converting into a dedicated music room.  Ha, as other have said, I can only go so far in my current room before I start getting push back.  For example, I've received a little pushback on acoustic panels.  They need to be "art panels" that look "nice".   This is not a real issue other than "art" panels cost significantly more.   Also pulling the speakers out more, which would be beneficial, would make it difficult to walk through the room.   

For me the real issue with moving the music equipment upstairs is lugging it all up the stairs.  Taking a speaker that weights 110 pounds isn't a one man job!  I may pull the trigger on that idea though, as I could do anything I want up there.  

@ghdprentice   Good call on doing one thing at a time.  I'm very guilty of doing many things at once and then not knowing what exact item caused the improvement.  This is more an issue with my boat but I can see me doing the same thing here, now that I've decided to finally it get a 2 channel system up and running. 

@wheelndeal1099 

It seems as you already know the answer, room and acoustics. I would never have gotten where I'm at in my journey without starting from scratch and addressing both. All the equipment upgrade in the world in my old listening room/ living room would not even compare to my house of stereo current equipment. Long arduous process for sure, but unfortunaly nothing comes easy if you want to achieve the results you hope for. The easy solutions are just temporary bandaids. Either way you go, enjoy the journey.

I use a Shunyata Denali 6000s v.2 with Shunyata Alpha XC v.2 to the wall and Shunyata Alpha NR v.2 on everything else. Also use all Audience FrontRow for Speaker cables with FrontRow Jumpers, USB cable, and Balanced interconnect.

Good power cord will make any equipment better.

A picture of my room is right here on my profile when I post 😂. It’s a general purpose basement, a portion of it housing my audio system. It’s all how far one is willing to go on this hobby. If one is not allowed by the SO, or the proverbial “…. wearing the pants…”, then I feel sorry about you.

 

Speaking of which, this has to be lamest excuse one has in this hobby. It’s used so often, even by some with No SO whatsoever 🤦‍♂️

When the Mrs. is not busy, I’ll ask her if you’re right.😘

@wheelndeal1099 keep us posted and let us know how the new cables sound!

Cables have arrived- So the Acoustic Zen Silver Reference II XLR and Acoustic Zen Hologram II bi-wired speaker cables.

I bought these out of the used inventory of cables.com so these should be broken in. I was told to let them "warm up" for a few hours before critical listening. That said, here are my initial impressions.

The first song I played was Dire Straits Iron Hand. I immediately noticed the decay was better. These cables are also brighter, but in a very good way.

Next I played Norah Jones, Don’t know why. This is my goto song to test brightness. With the Boulder 866 this song was painful to listen to as Norah’s voice went from soothing to shrill. The Transparent cables her voice was great, with the Hologram/silver reference combo, it became just that much better. Her voice was more textured and the highs were more detailed. The Transparent’s were just a bit to rolled off for this set up. Honestly the Transparent’s would have problably made the Boulder 866 more enjoyable.

Vavaldi's Four Seasons Spring 3 (Max Richter) This is now the best I have heard this song from my room.  Violin clearly placed in front of the orchestra.  Now I've heard better (clearer separation) in dedicated music rooms but this is largely an untreated family room.  For what it is, it really sounds great. 

The soundstage may have improved slightly over the transparent/ Nordost Red Dawn XLR combo. My speakers have always disappeared into the room. Now there may be just a touch more layering and separation between instruments. I still don’t have that 3-D layered effect but I’m getting closer. I have sound absorbing curtains on the way for the windows that are in the back of the room. I have six large windows, and I think that is the first thing that must be tackled. I already have bass traps in the corners. Next will be dealing with first reflection point issues.

With all that said, my stereo certainly sounds better than it ever has at this point. Nothing has been night and day, but I can tell you the sound is a lot better than it was 2 weeks ago when I started this post!

Thanks for all the tips and advise so far!

Thanks OP for the post. Good luck with your future mods. Yes, intergraded are in no man land for conditioning as all amps go directly to the wall.

Nelson Pass is at the top of my audio hero's and not only doesn't endorse any cable manufacturers, but he also disregards tubes as well. 

Absolutely tune the room, positioning and equipment first.

This is NOT an endorsement for Denafrips nor does it address sound stage directly, just what naysayers want... some type of proof:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSN5UjCA4Zc

Audioquest's take on supplying power cords with their power conditioners:

Niagara Noise-Dissipation Systems do not ship with an AC cable. Why?

"The cable that feeds any power product is the most important AC cable in the audio/video system. For any power product to maximize its ability to dissipate noise, the attached AC cables must be Direction-Controlled to drain induced radio-frequency noise. AudioQuest AC cables include ZERO-Tech for uncompressed current transfer and optimal Noise-Dissipation. Further, our patented GND-Tech (Ground-Noise Dissipation) pulls RF noise out of any product it’s attached to.

When partnered with a Niagara power product, our Direction-Controlled AC cables create a complete Noise-Dissipation System, ensuring the most effective and efficient dissipation of RF noise.

We allow our customers to select the appropriate length of cable for their systems and to decide how completely they’d like to optimize their Niagaras."

This is not an issue here for most, but it is a long held fact that your best/highest quality power cables should be on your front end. Sub's benefit the least.

I do agree with several members here on Shunyata power distribution/power cables. They are a no brainer but far from my price range. I DIY all power cables.

An interesting tidbit from the manual for an Audioquest Niagara 1200 power conditioner:

"The Niagara 1200 has a five-year warranty, but it was designed to last for over two decades. Provided that the Niagara 1200 is used inside a home, store, studio, or office with a reasonable climate (45 degrees to 100 degrees Fahrenheit, with less than 20% humidity), it can be left on continuously; there are no parts that will wear out."

While I live in Reno, NV where current outside humidity is a normal 17% now, it is 50% inside as I use a water cooler. I grew up and lived in the Midwest my first 40 years and <20% humidity.... NO WAY LOL!

@wheelndeal1099 thanks for the follow up post! I would allow about 24hrs for the used cables to settle. I believe you will attain more depth and layering in the soundstage when you begin to address your room acoustics.
At some point you should also try Audioquest Tornado or Hurricane high current power cords on your Luxman integrated amp(get the latest version). There’s synergy with the AZ interconnects there, at least in my system.
 

Good luck and enjoy this journey!
 

OP,

Thanks, congradulations. After transport and non-use… it can take a while for cables to settle down. I would give them at least a few tens of hours. Weird… I have been really surprised how consistent and long it takes.

Had the same cables also for 15 yrs...good pairing.It took days/to a week for my zavfinos to really start to  open up (bought used).Same with my venhaus.Dont over stuff your room...leave some liveliness imho.

In MHO, power cables, treatments and room treatments will add nominal improvements at best (unless your room and current cables are FUBR : )

Perhaps a very good DAC can add some dimensionality and image layering?  Soekris, Mytek, Briscasti etc  Lots out there and most give you a 30 day trial.

Cheers,

P

@paul_lindemann   I'm beginning to think the same thing.  I've added many things over the past month, and the over all improvement is small but improved in regards to layering.  I think the biggest improvement was swapping out my interconnects and speaker cables.  I'm going to pull the power conditioner when I have time and see if I can hear a difference with and without it.   

When I demo'd my Luxman I used a $20k Aurender Streamer, so I suppose it is hard to expect a $4k CD player/DAC to give me the same sound.   Either way, I do have it sounding really nice now.  All of the little improvements have made a noticeable improvement over the past month.  

For now I am sitting tight, but a Bricasti DAC is on my "to try" list. 

I suggest both are needed, 

you can try this inexpensive Novaris Surge filter pp10 with excellent noise & surge filter. then also get another inexpensive decent power cord from iFi SUPANOVA.