WyWires is having a 10th anniversary sale. 40% off their platinum line. $1000 power cord for $600 is in your price range. I haven’t tried one before, just letting you know about the sale.
Power cord choice?
Hoping to change (or upgrade) my current PC in use with my ARC CD3 Mk2. Currently I'm using a Locus Designs Polestar and setting a limit $600 max. I'd like to find a cord that can get more micro details from the ARC yet, I'd like to retain the smoothness but, try to open the sound stage and get a little more bottom in doing so. I listen to Alt rock (Sir Sly, The Killers, Gargage), rock, blues using Classe CAP 151 integrated and Apogee Slant 6s. I know this is subjective but, I'm also doing my best to work with my budget constraints and I'm not going to change if the improvement would just be slightly incremental. I'd like suggestions to consider, please.
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Your amp and/or power conditioners are designed to take the raw power, filter it, clean it, do all the other magic and then send the signal to your speakers. Ok, firstly amplification has no “magic”. IOW, Gandalf plays no role here. A power supply job is to rectify a 50-60Hz AC supply, rectify it and remove all ripple (read AC) from the DC output. An AC signal is not raw, nor is a DC signal cooked; Gordon Ramsey doesn’t play into amplification. Less noise on the AC source will ALWAYS result in less noise on the DC output from the power supply. ALWAYS and every time without exception. The amplifier stage then receives the DC supply and makes a copy of the input signal using the DC supply, which end up going down the speaker cables. If the DC supply coming from the power supply is not perfectly ripple free, your sound is compromised. How do we believe a 3 foot piece of cable, from the wall socket to the amp is going to change the sound coming out of the speakers? Because the “3 foot” cable acts as a filter and reduces noise from the AC before it enters the the amplifier’s power supply. The cleaner the AC that enters the power supply, the cleaner the DC will be that it produces. The cleaner the DC, the better the sound. The idea that a power cable won’t help, is pure ignorance. If you obtain understanding of how amplifiers work, it will become very clear why cables improve sound. |
turnbowm If a power conditioner has a negative effect on sound. then it’s not a GOOD one.I think the real world is not so simple, even if your claim is made in ALLCAPS. For example, a system’s sound can be influenced by the exact location of the power conditioner relative to the other components, and it’s also possible that removing distortion may be heard as a loss of detail, even if the the signal is actually more accurate. Describing a sound as a "negative effect" is really subjective. An example would be a series-mode surge suppression/conditioner that doesn’t use Power Factor (energy reserve) technology. The result would be reduced dynamics and bass impact due to dynamic current-starving of a power amp.That’s nonsense. For one thing, in residential environments, electric utilities are very good at keeping PF very close to 1, which is the ideal. (You can easily measure this for yourself to confirm.) Even if the PF is slightly negative, you’re still likely to be able to pull 20A from a 20A line. PF is much more likely to be a problem in commercial areas where you have motors with inductive loads. Far more likely to be a power issue in residential environments is not PF, but the utility’s ability to deliver current on demand. For example, while you may have a 200A panel at your electric service entrance, that’s no assurance at all that the utility can actually deliver 200A to you. A prime benefit of power conditioners with energy reserves is ensuring power on demand; PF is only part of it. |
@raysmtb1 Thanks for that video link. I actually watched the entire 30 minutes. Although it pertained to audio signals being passed through various wires, I assume the results can be attached to PCs as well. I recently took the plunge and bought a $500 custom coaxial cable. In part based on all the postings on this site telling me there will be a big difference in sound, and partly on a long comparison of cables in Absolute Sound magazine. The reviewer tested 50+ cables and made his top three recommendations. In the review of the cable I choose, he claimed "the music danced like fire from the speakers". Well I ask you, who doesn't want that kind of result when you change out a cable. So off with the $25 coaxial and on with the $500 one. The difference in sound? Not a cintella of audible difference. Switched the cables back and forth. Identical results. And not just to me. To my wife and a few friends that have braved Covid to come over and listen. I'm still using the expensive cable because maybe the fire is there and I just need time to hear it. Sure that's it. I'll hear it later. It's only been a couple of months. Maybe the cables not burned in yet. Yeah, that's the ticket. |
bigtwin ... So off with the $25 coaxial and on with the $500 one. The difference in sound? Not a cintella of audible difference ...It would be a mistake to assume that the results you obtained with one simple experiment are universal. |
cleeds3,918 posts07-25-2021 8:57amturnbowm An example would be a series-mode surge suppression/conditioner that doesn’t use Power Factor (energy reserve) technology. The result would be reduced dynamics and bass impact due to dynamic current-starving of a power amp."That’s nonsense." Furman uses the term "Power Factor" while Audioquest calls it "Power Correction." In both cases, energy storage is provided by large capacitors that can satisfy the dynamic current demands of power amps. Without the caps, the very component (inductor) that limits the surge current also limits the dynamic current that is available to the amp. Simply put, an inductor opposes changes in current flow and that presents a problem for power amps. |
turnbowm Furman uses the term "Power Factor" while Audioquest calls it "Power Correction."I think you’re spending a little too much time reading manufacturer’s brochures and not enough time understanding what’s going on. Audioquest can use whatever marketing lingo it likes, but "Power Factor" is the accepted and proper term for describing the relative phase between voltage and current, which in residential environments is typically 1 or very, very close to it. ... energy storage is provided by large capacitors that can satisfy the dynamic current demands of power amps ...Yes, that’s what capacitors do. Without the caps, the very component (inductor) that limits the surge current also limits the dynamic current that is available to the amp.If you think all power conditioners rely on inductors that compromise PF, you’re mistaken. You're also mistaken if you isolate PF as the most critical factor in delivering full power. |
The Puritan 156 was my 2nd choice. It is a very good unit. But I passed on it because it had (9000A) surge suppression chokes or the like and instead had an electrician install a Seimens FS140 with 140,000A protection at the breaker box. I would look into PI Audio's UberBuss. It has independant outlets, a power factor correction of 1 and a non metal exterior box to eliminate Eddy currents and more. Each outlet handles 20A+( to Puritan's 15A). The UberBuss can actually output 40A+ spikes....It cost less than the Puritan and IMHO is a better power conditioner. Get a Triode Wire Labs High Power Digital Ameican power cable with the $ you saved and you'll be in the best situation. Look into the UberBuss before you buy. |
cleeds3,919 posts07-25-2021 10:05am"If you think all power conditioners rely on inductors that compromise PF, you’re mistaken. You're also mistaken if you isolate PF as the most critical factor in delivering full power." You seem to be making some very broad assumptions which are simply wrong. I'm well acquainted with series-mode and parallel-mode surge suppressors/conditioners and their design differences. You seem to have an argumentative nature. Is everything all right? |
@cleeds I agree that no one test can be held up as universally true. However, that doesn't explain why there is no apparent difference in sound when the new high-end cable is put into service? How can the improvement in sound not be obvious to everyone who listens? I live with the belief that every upgrade I've made to my system has provided a "small" improvement, while being hard/impossible to discern on it's own, the accumulated impact of many changes is much better sound. I have simply become accustomed to the results and so don't remember how lacking it was previously. This stops me from opening a vein when I think of the $$$$$ I've spent chasing the dream. Hmmmm, new Mercedes or a set of Legacy V speakers? ha ha ha |
I went with the Puritan PSM 156 because I don’t require more than a kilowatt of power at any device, and certainly not the nearly 1.4kW the power conditioner can deliver. 110VAC = approx. 69.96VDC after rectification . so rounded up to 70VDC x 15A = 1050 Watts 70VDC x 20A (it has a 20A power cord that comes with it) = approx 1.4kW So I have a two by 400Watt power amplifier, a fanless PC as a server, a DAC, a TV as my monitor and I’m way below that. It pays to do some math to work out your current load on your system, there's nothing wrong with overkill, and there's nothing wrong with having just a little more than you need either. I actually have 114.9VAC measured at the outlet, which equates to more Watts. The work done is the Voltage multiplied by the Amperes, or electrical pressure by the electron flow, known as Watts. However, if the PI Audio UberBuss conditioner works better for less money, that’s remarkable, a remarkable deal indeed. |
I listen to a lot of music. I had a mountain bike accident four years ago which has left me in wheelchair most of the day and I’ve had lots of time to try lots of different products. I’ve spent a decent amount of money looking for the magic that some people find bye changing different cables and PCs in their system. the best reason that I can gather is that at different times during the day your sinus cavities are different sizes depending on how much moisture is in the air. This directly affects what you hear, how the sound echoes through your head. There’s definitely a difference which could explain why people think that when you wait the cables will burn in. If you’re wondering how I figured this out is that after the accident I lost the use of my hands thus I cannot pick my nose. Sure this sounds gross but we all do it without realizing it. I have to have somebody help me clear my nose. This practice of having somebody else clear my nose has made it easy two realize the fact that music sounds different before and after this practice. That’s how I came to the conclusion that sinuses and sinus pressure have something to do with the cable war that has gone on for so many years. Barometric pressure, whether you’ve just jumped out of the shower, or just blow your nose makes a difference in what you hear. The simplest experiment that I can think of is listen to your cables after being outside all day. Turn off your system, blow your nose and then listen to your system again. It will sound different if you really pay attention. I think the same thing happens when you listen to different cables, PCs etc. but nobody pays attention to these factors. The laws of electricity are solid and have been around for over 100 years. If there were differences in electrical properties via different cables somebody would’ve figured out a way by now to classify the cables before you bought them. Basically different metals and shielding products would do different things to cables and you could chart this like you can chart Tone controls and equalizers. That way, you could walk into an audio store and I say to the sales person “ i’d like my system to have more high end, can you please direct me to a set of cables that are rated for more high end?” The way things are now it’s no different than throwing dice against a wall you have no idea what they’re going to do to your system. If cables were changing systems as science fact(like the rules of electricity ) Power cords and interconnects would be a science instead of a crapshoot. how’s that for a crazy off-the-wall theory? |
turnbowm You seem to be making some very broad assumptions which are simply wrong.That’s an interesting accusation but without an example it doesn’t mean anything. I’m well acquainted with series-mode and parallel-mode surge suppressors/conditioners and their design differences.Good for you. Have you ever actually measured Power Factor? What other tests have you done (or had done for you) on your AC line? Those are good first steps before choosing equipment to correct problems you may not even have. (And to be clear, I believe in power conditioning and use it in my system. Extensively. But not everyone beenfits to the same degree.) Here's another thing about PF: You utility has every reason to keep it as close to 1 as possible, because a negative Power Factor increases cost of power distribution. So if you truly suffer from bad PF, you're likely to be able to work with the utility to resolve it. |
@rixthetrick You make a good observation about total wattage used. It was recommended to me to try to figure that out. Your Wattage needs are below mine for sure. I have 2 350W Rowland Model 12's, 2 other Rowland amps for surround, a 75W Classe processor, a 450W plasma TV and 6 other lower current analog and digital source components. One factor was that I didn't want any surge suppression devices/technology in my power conditioner. The 156 is a very good unit but I couldn't figure out why it had a 20A power cord and IEC inlet but 15A outlets... Just to mention, the base UberBuss is $1195 and has upgraded outlets. I upgraded beyond that and had a few DigiBuss outlets substituted for standard. |
vinylshadow The 156 is a very good unit but I couldn't figure out why it had a 20A power cord and IEC inlet but 15A outlets ...That's like ARC, which ships preamps with 20A cords even though 15A would more than suffice. But ARC thinks the 20A plug results in a better grip, which makes some sense. |
That makes a lot of sense. 15A inlets, esp with the female connectors having that notch in it, makes for a swiveling connection. I was advised, and will do it soon, to wrap the connection in Teflon tape to tighten the fit. That's one reason i went with a 32A Neutrik connector on my power conditioner...That sucker locks in. |
The 20 amp ratings relates to the total output your conditioner can supply. Not to be confused with the individual output capacity of each plugin on the back of the unit. As such, they recommend the conditioner be put on a 20 amp breaker. It reality, most people use a 20 to 15 amp plug converter so you can use the existing household outlet. Given that most systems, other than initial start-up, will only draw between 1 - 2 amp total, there is no problem running the "20 amp" conditioner on a 15 amp circuit. |
That is true, but the increase in current might spike your amp draw by half an amp? You would have to be a massive amount of equipment to draw a total of 5 amps? Just saying the 15 amp service in the average home is not likely to fail. And even if it did, it would simply kick off the breaker on the main panel. If someone on this forum has a system drawing that much power, I'd love to see it. |
Degeneration. I don’t know how else to call this phenomenon: people starting a thread asking for a recommendation on something audio related. Anything. And all of a sudden that thread is flooded with people who think that particular TYPE of audio equipment is not necessary, does nothing, stock whatever would do and so on. I don’t understand why. Can you focus on helping the OP? Answering their question? If you have nothing to offer, be it for lack of experience, or not even believing on the particular subject, can’t you just skip, disregard, ignore? Why do you feel the urge to “participate” offering nothing useful to the OP? Can you cable non-believers explain what internal psychological drives you to participating in threads that are of zero interest to you? It will be very useful from the mental point of view. Kinda of curiosity I have in humans train of thoughts. Is it because you feel like you need to intervene to save the OP’s money? Good Samaritan syndrome? Thank you |
You are right...Sorry. I think for a low current CD player, the OP does not need to spend exhorbitant money on a power cable. I’d recommend either a Straight Wire Black Thunder II(less than $600) or a Vertere Acoustics Redline(more than $600). I would suggest the Black Thunder II at around $400 for 1 meter and, at 25 pounds, buy 3 Townshend Seismic pods to tripod(or 4) for vibration control. IMHO, the vibration control might be more important than the power cord for a CD player. |
@rsjm80 I picked up used Kimber Palladian pk-10 and pk-14 cables based on Audio Bacon Power Cables shootout: https://www.google.com/amp/s/audiobacon.net/2019/08/17/27-audiophile-power-cables-reviewed/ not going to change if the improvement would just be slightly incremental.Sorry, there are no guarantees - you have to try for yourself. While you can draw some general performance conclusions as some on this forum have voiced, the quality of your external power source, the interactions of your items sharing your electrical circuit, the uniqueness of your audio chain components synergy and resistance to electrical noise, your listening space, and your hearing acuity makes your experience unique. Try it out for yourself. You’ll likely hear from no change to the equivalent of a component upgrade. Worst case you’ll be out some time and maybe some $, but you can mitigate the $cost by trying cables with a liberal return policy/trial period, or buy used and if unsatisfied resell it. IIRC the Cable Company has a lending library for a fee which might interest you: https://www.thecableco.com/lending-library |
Thyname…. The reason why that people jump in is because much of what people talk about when discussing inner K’NEX and power cords is ridiculous. Most people that have knowledge of basic science can’t believe that people are talking the way that they do. That’s why I offered up the idea of peoples sinuses make a difference and how something sounds. That makes more sense then some of the explanations I’ve read about how a power cord or an IC can make a difference. |
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You were extremely fortunate to make your first foray into power cords with the Viborg 1501 with the top of the line copper (non plated) Viborg connectors! As you say, there are diamonds in the rough, and that particular Viborg cable is an unbelievable value. I became interested in the Viborg connectors, and subsequently the Viborg cable, about a year ago now and built a number of cords using their top of the line non plated connectors and their 1606 cable. I've cryogenically treated all of my cabling, receptacles, etc. for the past 20 years so I did this with the 1606 DIY builds (which came in around $100-$125 Canadian depending on length) and those cables were outstanding value for the money. The 1501 fully assembled from Viborg is even better though and ridiculously low priced in terms of its performance, particularly after cryo. I purchased my first one a few months ago, the 2nd arrived and was cryoed and just went into service about 10 days ago and I broke down and ordered a 3rd which shipped in the past few days. It is only marginally more expensive than the 1606 DIY builds I did. To put things into perspective, I loaned out another DIY build to a friend of mine which was inferior to the DIY 1606 builds (and which the 1606's replaced) and significantly inferior to the cryoed 1501's I now have in use a few months ago and he tried that cord on his monster Bryston power amp. He felt that the one I loaned him was equal to a Nordost Brahma power cord that he had on the Bryston and that power cord retails at $1400 U.S. And the cryoed Viborg 1501 is in another league altogether. Diamond in the rough indeed. FWIW, the top of the line Viborg connectors are also available plated in silver, gold or rhodium. I stuck with the copper as I wanted the most neutral presentation. |
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To the less experienced audiophiles, please keep an open mind to the concept that everything matters to the sound of your system. The folks who say power cords and ethernet cables don't make any difference should not be making that claim. They don't have your ears, your room or your component mix. Please continue to try things that interest you and take advantage of money back offers. In terms of PCs I didn't have any interest in spending my money on them, but I have educated myself the hard way by trying lots of different PCs. I caution the folks who don't hear differences about making blanket claims about cables. Two points, first, your system has to be at a resolution level to hear finer differences (obvious, but true). Secondly you may need to go high enough into the product line to get to the higher form factor of a companies technology. I entered the PC market with 5 $500 PCs and a $3500 power conditioner. I was very ho hum about the improvements. I might have contributed to a forum at that point and said don't do it, not worth it. I was persuaded by a friend to go higher up the line. The improvements these more expensive PCs have made are easily equal to a preamp, DAC or amp swap. (unfortunately they were as expensive as a component swap). My advice to the OP is to try loaners or buy used PCs on AG at 50% or less of retail from bigger name vendors and try them. List it if you don't like it and it won't cost much of anything for the home trial. Plus you are getting higher up the product line than you could have at retail. Many of the cables are great cables they just need to "fit" with your components. |
Power cords are really pretty simple. 3.) You're deaf. |
For those of you who still aren’t sure here’s an article that’s worth reading. https://www.androidauthority.com/premium-audio-cable-myth-worth-it-1001521/ Also if you don’t like to read here’s a video. https://youtu.be/ZyWt3kANA3Q you’re better off spending your money on better components than you are wasting it on interconnects. I have $40,000 worth I have equipment all connected with AmazonXLR cords. It sounds amazing I have people over all the time that if they knew I used Amazon cards they wouldn’t believe it. This is not an ad for Amazon this is an argument against thousand dollar power cords add thousand dollar interconnects |
For all of you guys out there who are smarter than I am with computers here’s a guy who shows you how to perform a null test With some software and computer. It would be interesting if somebody out there could do annual test on their computer between a normal cable and an expensive cable and let’s see if these guys are full of it or not https://youtu.be/52kbgFAuu6k |
I owned this very same CD player years ago. When I had it I used Shunyata Python Alpha VX and the results were phenomenal. I run a Bryston BDA-3 DAC now with Nordost Heimdall 2 power cable and I like the sound a lot. Plenty of details, low noise floor, full sound, smooth, great depth. I wouldn’t hesitate to recommend this cable and on the used market its well within your budget. |
I have shared in a curiosity occasionally about the impact of a Cable on Device, be it a Interconnect, COAX, Speaker Cable or Power Cable. I am not too concerned in the early stages of an investigation about a Cables Construction Design. I am interested in experiencing a Wire that is used as a part of the Cables Construction. To date I have used various Wires in Various Gauges in Power Cables across many years. As most of my interest in my system is now about generating the most satisfactory interfaces, I am spending a larger proportion of time gathering a further knowledge about cables, i.e, Wire, Construction and Termination. From past and present experiences, my assessments have led myself to believe that a particular Wire Type can impact on the SQ and the affect a wire can have on a device is varying. In my trials with Power Cables I have used standard copper, and OFC, and recently brought in PC Triple C. ( Copper, OFC, OCC Copper and Silver, and PC Triple C and D.U.C.C) have all been trialled as either a Interconnect, COAX and Speaker Cable. This experience merely means I understand how certain Wires at a given Gauge are interfacing within my system only. My usual formula for a Trial, is to purchase a used Cable, ( the reason for buying used, is that it will hopefully have quite a few hours of usage behind it ). I commence with using one Power Cable only and use it on different devices, and allow it to be in use for quite a few sessions before I revert back to a previously used Cable. Bearing in mind I don't undertake the Power Cable experiences as a regular practice, when I introduced PC Triple C to the System, I was blown away. When a attached to a CDT it was a enormous impact for the better, the qualities remained but it was like the improvement on the qualities jumped to a better place, and the Soundstage become much more Voluminous, like a few extra pumps were added to the balloon. Ditto, when the Power Cable was added to the DAC. Almost Ditto, when the Power Cable was added to the Phonostage. I have not started on the Mono Blocks yet and the Internally terminated Pre Amp will probably get treated last with a exchange Cable. I am now looking to bring additional Power Cables on board, as it seems there is so much to be on offer, if the CDT and DAC both have the same Wire in the Power Cable. There is no recollection from my trial experiences throughout my whole history of building a System, where a use of a Wire has impacted on the System in the noticeable manner these modern design wires are capable of producing, at any interface. The perception created where there is more of everything, a furthering of the insight, the added Volume to the Soundstage and improved cohesion across all frequencies is a Joy to experience. The impact a Solid Core Speaker Cable has had, has now got myself all fired up to exchange the Xover to Driver wires within the cabinet, I want more of this X Factor. My previously used Speaker Cables were used in a demonstration/Bake Off with Speaker Cables, where the combined Value was approx' £7000. My Cables were selected to be used in the Final Comparison between two Cables. I did not see these ever requiring to be exchanged. I have yet to reinstate my previously used cables, as the New Wire is New and I am looking to let it settle. Again I am a little wiser on the Modern Wire Production Methods and after treatments for these Wires. Cryo Treated is a method where a Wire is exposed to be frozen to a specific temperature. Nano Treated is a method where the Wire is exposed to being Heated to a specific temperature. The PC Triple C Power Cable I am using has a reference that states it is Nano. |
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EPS Essence and Triode Wire Labs have been the best go to bang for buck all arounders for me. Dynamic Design AE15 Lotus (analog) or Spirit (digital) can be found for your price and will bring the music home. There was a Heritage on USAudioMart for 700 from Steakster that you might be able to get for that, too. Hard to resell, but you won't want to.....IMHO. Trust your own ears and enjoy the process. It's all a big experiment and if you choose to participate, there's a lot of fun and joy to be had! The answer is always no if you don't ask! |
I have $40,000 worth I have equipment all connected with AmazonXLR cords. It sounds amazing I have people over all the time that if they knew I used Amazon cards they wouldn’t believe it. This is not an ad for Amazon this is an argument against thousand dollar power cords add thousand dollar interconnects. Your argument is not valid. Simply because you feel you spent a lot on your system does not diminish or change the experience I, or anybody else have had by swapping out cables. I build my own amps. I spent more than 15 years refining my current amp to fit my environment and sound perfect to my ear. I have swapped out almost every capacitor and resister numerous times to achieve the sound I want. Money cannot buy you that. I know which power cord, interconnect and speaker cable combination works best with which particular combination of resistors and capacitors works best with which isolation platform works best with which power conditioner / battery combination works best with which type of source. No jokes, if a system like the one you have doesn’t exhibit noticeable differences in sound when you swap cables, you have issues which you should address. (I don’t mean you personally, I mean your setup) |
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@rsjm80- I've used Zu Mother PCs on a number of components and never have been disappointed, in the least. Currently: I have them on my CDP, preamp and tubed, monoblock, main amps. Some low-cost options, you may want to explore: ie: https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649742715-zu-audio-mother-varial-amp-ash/ and: https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649738798-zu-audio-mother-power-cord-2-meters/ Zu's description: https://static1.squarespace.com/static/51dd8a95e4b0ff2f7c9874ae/t/56438a03e4b0b66656c31f7f/144726681... Reviewed, here: https://6moons.com/audioreviews/zu13/cables.html |
For those who are using the "water" analogy, have you had a chance to look at the size of the amp "fuses"? Tiny little thing would represent the bottleneck but it is not. Electricity is not like water. If the last 3ft does not make any difference, then why would the power supply rectifier make a difference? The rectifier is actually the last component after the power cord, the fuse, but it makes the most difference. If you don't think power cord make a difference, then fine if you can't hear a difference. But don't go around telling the power cord is the last 3ft. It is neither the last or the first because electricity is not like "water". |
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Here is some more real science for you guys to try and soak in. It’s got graphs and charts and lots of explanations. https://youtu.be/dLghg0QXPzs |