Do any power conditioners actually store the energy from the outlet/power company and then generate it on demand or do they all filter the current as it is coming through?
Technically, an awful lot of them store it. Decware is one of the few actually to show you what is in the box. Check it out: https://www.decware.com/newsite/ZLC.html
Now if you can read a schematic- or text, or you could for that matter look at the picture- you will notice they use a capacitor. Caps store energy, that is what they all do, and so technically the answer to your question is yes.
A lot of them do this by the way. Nobody thinks of it that way, a whole slew are ready to leap and argue, but facts are facts and it is simply a fact caps store power.
It is of course a little more complicated than that. Capacitors have values, the unit of capacitance being the Henry. Most of our caps are measured in mH, milli-Henry’s, because it is a hard way to store energy.
The caps typically used are very small value. What they do is allow the powerful (high amplitude) 60Hz AC energy to pass. But look close, magnify that wave, you will see riding on it a lot of very low amplitude noise. The filter cap can do nothing with the 120V power. But the microscopically tiny way below a millivolt noise? The filter cap charges and discharges constantly, and that is how it filters out this noise.
We can do the same with larger value caps. It is just that they become both very costly, and very dangerous. I have had a couple in my system. Scared the crap out of me! I was afraid to touch it. Good thing too, the guy who brought it over got a little too close to the rack, giant spark of lightning arc zapped, scared the crap out of him! But oh, the bass once that thing was hooked up!
The Decware strikes me as a deal. It is nice to try and learn this stuff but it is even better to have a bitchin system. Just get one.
@millercarbon - I have one - a Furman elite 15i, which is a little above entry level and was thinking about upgrading to one that did more than filter. When I originally got it, it was for functionality of having a large number of outlets and protection against power spikes, but I found it improved the sound a little.
For a very cosmetic reason (other boxes are silver, Furman is dark brown) I am considering a change. I like the fact that the Furman shuts off when it senses a problem and has a switch on the front, that I haven't seen on some.
There are so many out there, it is really unbeleivable.
PS Audio's line is famous for doing just that. PerfectPower was somewhere in between, storing enough energy to correct the waveform without necessarily being able to recreate missing waves.
Capacitors have values, the unit of capacitance being the Henry. Most of our caps are measured in mH, milli-Henry’s, because it is a hard way to store energy.
Uh....No. The unit of capacitance is the farad. The unit of inductance is the Henry.
What you are referring to is called a "power supply smoothing capacitor" and every amplifier already has one (or more) in it :-) You do not need a power conditioner for that function :-)
Good correction: Farads, millifarads, microfarads. A Farad is quite a large amount of energy storage capacity. For example, my current power amp has 108,000 uF, or 108 Farads. A lot of storage and smoothing for a D.C. power supply.
“Do any power conditioners actually store the energy from the outlet/power company and then generate it on demand ” I think this is called a battery. but then you would also need an inverter to transform the DC current back into AC if you want to plug-in big stuff like amplifiers. better yet, you can run some components like dacs directly from the DC current and completely isolate them from the grid without too much battery power. Anything that runs off a wall wart take power supply is a candidate for a DC power from the battery.
”Now if I can only get a silver face plate for it” A can of silver spray paint should do the job. :-)
Knowing very little regarding power conditioners... they improve sound but do they protect equipment should a power surge occur or are they possibly damaged as well? Appreciate your input regarding the above mentioned Decware
@bruce19 - painting won't cut it = I asked Furman about switching faceplate colors and haven't heard back...I doubt they would do it.
So if I understand this correctly, the only real way to do what I asked is to have some kind of rechargeable battery or external generator. Capacitors act like filters and can't totally clean the noise out of the electric company current. Or am I wrong and some PCs do have batteries or generators?
So the reason people theoretically pay thousands of dollars for PCs it that some do a better job (supposedly) of filtering out the noise?I thought originally that there were 2 classes of PCs, filtering ones and generating ones.
A guy from Furman said that their upper level conditioners do this, but he still said it was like filtering water and you can never get rid of all the noise, which makes me think their upper level ones don't really do it.
I know that my phono stage manufacturer, Sutherland, used to make one that was battery powered called the PhD which was popular back in the day. Not sure why he stopped making them, but it makes sense since they use so little power.
Knowing very little regarding power conditioners... they improve sound but do they protect equipment should a power surge occur or are they possibly damaged as well? Appreciate your input regarding the above mentioned Decware
@mbenne
Check for UL 1442 rating. If yes, then they are actually tested to protect against AC surges. If not, your guess is as good as anyone else’s.
Most surge protectors have limited lifespans anyway, so eventually they will wear out over time. ZeroSurge/SurgeX/Brickwall are rare exceptions.
You might need a hair conditioner or perhaps a surge protector but you already have a power conditioner. It is called a power supply. Anything else is a waste of money.
@bigtwin - than one requires a 20 amp receptacle and sounds like it gets as close as you can to a battery or generator using a special transformer, versus capacitors, which I guess is what the more expensive ones do.
@mbennes - they protect against surges or spikes, from what I understand, not against direct lightning strikes. I doubt anything is immune from getting fried, which is almost like catching fire. Nothing is fireproof.
@mijostyn - IMHO I must disagree. They definitely filter dirty current from the power company to varying degrees in addition to providing some protection.
Now....can you hear it? What is that improvement in SQ worth to you? I think it is more important that power cables, but @millerccarbon may disagree with that.
I heard a small improvement in SQ when I put mine in years ago. I mainly got it for protection and to have something better than a power strip.
I believe that the OP has the answer to the original question. Some conditioners recondition the power. IOW, they take the AC input voltage and current, convert it to DC, then convert it back to AC with a now fixed voltage and frequency that won't change. it also cleaned up the voltage/current. They also may have very large capacitors.
others, take the input voltage/current and filter it to remove noise along with surge suppressors.
for those that think that power conditioners have no value, I say, it depends.
When I hear or read someone who's first words are "I think", I typically walk away. Doesn't really matter what one thinks. facts are what matters. If you take five very good power conditioners and do A/B comparisons versus each other and more importantly against direct wall connections, then listen to the system, you will hear differences.
Keep the power amps directly connected to the wall outlet and the low level equipment, pre-amp, turn table power supply, CD player/transport, music server, etc. plugged into the power conditioner. Then listen. hear any differences?
I have relatively clean power coming from my utility. But, I still heard definite improvements with each power conditioner I demo'd. And I also have and use four (yes four) dedicated lines.
My point is to hear for yourself. Take the equipment home for an in-home demonstration and A/B yourself in your home system. This is true for any piece you want to buy. If a dealer won't let you take a demonstration unit home for an in-home demonstration (after taking your credit card information of course), then something is not right.
Many times the noise floor is lowered by removing grunge on the line. Some remove frequency fluctuations from the utility. This is what turn table speed controllers do. They take the AC wall signal with the 60 or 50 Hz signal, convert it to DC, then convert it back to AC with a solid fixed frequency. You tune your turn table to that frequency and now you have stable speed regardless of what the utility's frequency is doing.
anyway, check for your self. A power conditioner may help.
I thought I didn’t need a power conditioner for the longest time until I tried a Audioquest Niagara 1200. Three different integrateds and my SACD player all sounded better with it. Even my TV picture improved.
Just because amps have power conditioning built in doesn’t necessarily mean it’s being done correctly. No two makes do it the same way so it stands to reason that a few are doing it correctly and the rest are doing it wrong. Could be for a myriad of reasons but most of the time it’s just cost cutting and making things to a price point.
Hey @minorl - is there any way to figure out which ones recondition vs. condition? Isn't that done through a transformer versus a capacitor?
@nonoise - none of this stuff is a matter of need.....I never knew I "needed" a phono stage - my integrated amp has an internal switch for high output and low output cartridges with a phono selection, and I thought it sounded great. When I got one, it was a significant improvement - immediately VERY noticeable.
I never knew I needed "vibration control" - for my turntable....for my speakers....for my phono stage....for my integrated not as noticeable as the phono stage, but once again VERY significant and audible.
No-one needs a power conditioner. A power strip will work. However for convenience, protection, and some SQ improvement (probably no where near along the lines of the 2 areas I just mentioned above) IMHO for any stereo expenditure over $3-4K out of pocket, it should be part of the system.
I know PS Audio (I believe) offered power regenerators. Very large heavy units. I tried a unit several years ago, no longer in production and it was nice. However, my current power conditioner made my system sound better. I'm sure the current PS Audio units are much better now.
Again, most utilities provide voltage that fluctuates depending on what loads come on and off on the system. (before anyone argues with me, I am, along with my analog/digital Engineering degrees and background, a state certified Power Engineer working for a local utility). So, for example, with stable loading, the system provides 120 Volts at 60 cycles per second. Now turn on large loads/motors, etc. That voltage will drop for a very short time until the system generation can catch up. Same is true with frequency. If large loads suddenly go away, the voltage may increase along with the frequency.
This happens on the system all day at all hours. more stable at late hours. reliable utilities have generation on stand by and rolling to provide this much needed system stability. So, even if a large generator is tripped off-line due to a fault, the system will remain relatively stable because of the other generation.
If you don't have a speed controller on your turn table, or if it isn't integral with your turn table, if you place a stroboscope on the turn table with a regular incandescent light, you can see if the speed is accurate. depending on the time of day and system loading, it is not. Hence the need for a speed controller.
But, there can be lots of noise on the power lines, which will make their way into your audio system. Most equipment's power supplies have within the power supply filtering that will try to remove noise. One thing power conditioners will help with is lowering the noise floor significantly.
To see if it is needed, it is simply a matter of getting your hands on some decent power conditioners and doing an A/B comparison. With power conditioning and without it. Or compare various conditioners.
I can't speak for the really expensive heavy duty power conditioners that provide for large amps to be plugged in also. Most choke the power to the point where amps don't sound good plugged into a conditioner. However, as I mentioned, there are some that work quite well that allow for power amps to be plugged into them also. They are really expensive, large and heavy. But, they do work.
So, I can't say as some said earlier that power conditioners either work or don't . It depends on what is going on with your system and the voltage from the utility. is it clean and stable? if not, then yes, you definitely need a conditioner.
It is funny. You think your system is great until you do an A/B in-home test with another piece and all of a sudden the background noise is way less or you hear things you never heard before in your music. That is the problem. There is always something better than what you have or something that can help.
@sokogear - 20 amp receptacle allows you to draw up to 20 amps if you have run 10 - 12 gauge wiring, probably on a 30 amp breaker. Otherwise, use a 15 amp converter plug. My system draws less than 2 amps when playing. Existing 15 amp service is plenty.
Hello, I would recommend the Puritan PSM156 or the PSM136. You can now get a silver faceplate. This thing really makes a difference in the sound. It sounds like someone took off the cover off of your speakers that was blocking the sound. Plus, it help your whole system even if you plug your amp directly to the wall as long as the Puritan is on the same breaker by filtering out tons of hash or impurities. It does not store power like my old Monster 2000 used to do. I used to have a 20 and 15 amp Furman. The Puritan helps so much at producing perfect sound it’s not even a comparison. Plus, Most power conditioners have banks of four outlets. Every outlet on the Puritan PSM156 or 136 is discrete. All of the filtering with none of the restrictions. I bought mine at a dealer in the Chicagoland area called : https://holmaudio.com/ They let you try before you buy which I did. I tried it and bought it. I knew I could not live without it in my system. Plus it comes with a nice power cord unlike the AQ Niagara. You have to buy theirs. I hope this helped.
It has surge protection, DC removal, twin transformers to freely allow 20A current flow. Using two inductors to remove in process high frequency noise riding on the alternating current, it shunts to ground the noise from both the active (hot) and neutral (bonded to ground) back into the ground wire. An external ground can also be used, apparently with even better results, it has a slightly different potential if it’s not bonded at the panel, you will want to use the Puritan ground with that.
Shorting the high passed noise to ground is also the technology that German InAkustik uses. However, the Puritan has separate circuits isolating each outlet shunting noise to ground, so that switching power supplies (if you can swap them for linear it will yield better results - generally) won’t introduce noise into other devices plugged into it.
I did quite a lot of research before being tipped off on this little beauty. It may very well not be the best, but as far as I know, for the money, it’s a black horse that should be tried.
It has revealed a lot more information hidden by noise that my power supplies could absolutely not remove in rectification and using smoothing caps or the LT3045 in my power supply.
@mijostyn
You might need a hair conditioner or perhaps a surge protector but you already have a power conditioner. It is called a power supply.
Please explain to me where in the four way bridge rectifier, smoothing capacitors, or LT3045 it makes for perfect DC??
Anything else is a waste of money.
Unless it’s absolutely not a waste of money! Then it’s simply superior technology, that delivers a better result through impressive engineering. But go ahead, and "know" that it’s snake oil, while those curious enough get the benefits.
I have by all reports read the Niagara range (and many even significantly more expensive conditioners) also are very good at noise removal, as are many others. Compare prices, features (an important one is surge protection another is removal of DC), and decide for yourself.
That’s a kilowatt with absolutely no loss in dynamics turned up pretty darned loud, and it has really lowered the noise floor of everything in my system. That’s good engineering.
One cannot stress, enough, the need to remove any and all DC. The tiniest amount sets your tranny a buzzin even for several seconds after it's gone. It's what lots hear when they invest in a mega power conditioner with it's own tranny that doesn't address the issue properly. Or so I've read. My Niagara 1200 does, as does the Puritan 156.
+1 Nonoise Yes, Direct Curent removal is a winner.
What does an alternating current with direct current look like on an oscilloscope? Instead of the alternating current rolling up and down across a zero potential line, the alternating current rides up higher, and the median of the wave rests on the direct current value.
Out of six or eight different brands of power conditioner that I tried, the Puritan PSM 156 was the only one that made an audible improvement to the sound. This was immediately noticeable, and better in every way.
Looks like I'm getting the Puritan 136. For my SS amp, it has more than enough capability. Thanks @hshifi - silver it is, and supposedly it will improve the sound over the Furman 15i.
I have a PS Audio Power Plant Regenerator. I hunted it down and convinced the owner to sell it to me. One of the best things I have ever bought for my system. Real black background, and this is through my all Tube system. Magic really. ;)
FYI, the Emotiva CMX-2 does DC offset removal for $129 and is a great product. If you have a conditioner you like, you can put the CMX-2 in front of your conditioner and get the benefit of DC removal without having to start over from scratch.
@sokogear No, afraid not. Given the relatively modest price (compared to some others) I just went for maximum treatment/filtration. Depending on the quality of your incoming electricity, some say the 136 is plenty.
There's a long thread on the 136 over on AudioCircle if you want to read more about it.
Sarjan at 6moons is a big fan of the Puritan line of conditioners and has reviewed both the 156 and the 136 and details the differences. He uses Vibex on his big system and the 156 on his two other systems.
Hello, I just buy once and cry once. The 136 is the lowest I would go in the line. Later down the road try the Ultimate XX 20 amp power cable to replace the Classic cable which is still an excellent cable. The store I buy from lets you turn in your Puritan Classic power cable for the 15 amp version. I was so impressed I bought two 156 conditioners. That is how good they are. I am waiting for delivery of the XX power cord. One thing: they need 10-12 days to fully break in. I call it the twelve days of Christmas. On the last day you get the best gift of all. Perfect sound. If you are near the Chicagoland area this store lets you try the Puritan before you buy. https://holmaudio.com/ They also have a new product called the Routemaster coming in a week according to them. It is a grounding station like other companies have except you can create a new ground for your system utilizing the product called the Ground Master. I have not done this yet but I will before summer is over. I am told you have not listened to this kind of black background.
I know that my phono stage manufacturer, Sutherland, used to make one that was battery powered called the PhD which was popular back in the day. Not sure why he stopped making them, but it makes sense since they use so little power.
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