bfleet
my 2 cents
you want more heft from your setup because the mon 30’s are bass light... they are made to be that way, compared to their sister models compact 7s and super 5’s... i have had all three, sold the mon 30’s - it is fundamentally a midrange oriented speaker
i don’t believe changing amplification is going to appease your desire for more fullness and foundation... yba, hegel 190 390 590, pass, ava ss all have plenty of power to drive the mon 30’s properly with roughly same tonality, maybe yba a touch brighter up top, just a little
you might consider some subs... or bite the bullet and try compact 7’s or shl5’s -- easy peasy to move and buy these harbeths always people wanting... |
I wonder if adding a sub or two (as mentioned above) will correct the issue, has anyone tried the addition of subs and care to ad their impression? |
It sounds from the posts that I’ve not sufficiently explained my dilemma, so let me offer my apology. I guess my real question is whether there would be a benefit in adding a more powerful amp or simply a different power amp to my system. If yes, what might you recommend. There are any number of recordings where the dynamic range of the music appears to call for more power (e.g. classical), whereas other recordings not. I don’t like to push the volume control on the preamp to the 12 o’clock or beyond position, which might be naive on my part. I know that Harbeth’s owner/designer often appears rather ambivalent about power, so I hope Harbeth owners have some insights. I hope this helps. |
It's funny - I had the Monitor 30s and they just had no bass in my room, which I thought was incredible because I had the SHL5s and now the P3s, which produce a better bass response in the same room. I just chalked it up to the speaker not jibing with the room, but I have to agree with jjss that the 30's seem bass-light. That said, I will tell you that, while I don't believe in "fixing" a system with cables, I cannot overstate the difference Purist Poseidon speaker cables made with my P3s. You would not believe it was the same speaker. When I first installed them, I was using the Stereophile CD to check L-R and phase and it starts with a Fender bass. I was shocked at how the bass sounded like it was coming from an SHL5 and not a P3. So if you're hung up on keeping the 30's and willing to experiment, I would definitely recommend looking into the cables. |
I was not able to find specs on your amp but YBA appears to make good stuff- but there are differences among power amplifiers that make one better than the other at a given power rating.
Also it would be good to know your budget. |
How many watts per channel is your YBA amp? |
My understanding is that the build quality of the YBA amp is superb. I don’t have the manual and have not been able to locate one, but it appears it’s spec’d at 120 wpc into 8 ohms, although I have been told that’s very conservative. It apparently sold at $6500 new (I paid $1250). It’s not a question of not enough bass, I find the Harbeth’s to be extremely well-balanced and I have never experienced listener fatigue. It’s just that I wonder sometimes whether more power would be better. Budget-wise, I’d like to spend less than $5000 (as much less as possible). I have always been intrigued by reviews and discussions within this forum where Harbeth’s are being driven by 30 wpc Pass Class A amps. The whole wpc thing is still a mystery to me. What power amps have Harbeth 30.2 owners found to work best? |
I demo'ed the 30.2 with a Luxman L590axii class A and thought the system sounded overly subdued, recessed and rolled off.
My current system is a Rogue Audio RP-7 tube preamp with a Parasound a21+ amplifier and Harbeth SHL5+.
Very smooth but highly detailed and dynamic. The a21+ is a winner. |
In your first post you mention "an improvement" and in the last "better", but you don't specify on what axis or axes that amelioration might be achieved. You also state there's more than sufficient bass. If you were using 50W on them I'd say yes, go ahead and try 150W. As it stands you're intrigued by different sounding amps, and there's a variety of amps that will give different presentations. BTW, if you check out the Harbeth User Group (HUG) you'll find a remarkable range of amps being used with different Harbeth models. There's no orthodoxy on this one. I think you need to audition (in store or at home) to make significant headway with this issue. |
@bfleetwood
your yba is 125 wpc currently... as i recall yba’s are quite fairly rated, not weak for their stated ratings
so 250 wpc gives you 3 db more headroom, 500 wpc 3 db more
how much do you need?
i think 2leftears hits the nail on the head, you are really asking what amps might sound different... only one way to find that out...
if you want an idea, try a big hegel... alan shaw uses an h360 them to voice his speakers |
I hear what everyone is saying, but I’m trying to understand if the amp pairing with my PL tube preamp is more than just watts. On the Harbeth site, there are inconclusive discussions about power, gain and dynamic headroom. I’m certainly a neophyte compared to so many who comment on this site, but getting live tryouts of amps is difficult (too many manufacturers and too few high quality dealers). The Hegel H30 might be an option, although how well it will pair with my PL is a question. Also, why not the Van Alstine FET valve 400 or another pure SS amp. Do all 200 wpc amps provide the same gain and dynamic headroom? It is clear from following this site that not all amps are created equally. I’ve been told repeatedly through my decades of listening to hi if that certain components pair better with others. All these platitudes only leave me more confused. |
You’ll have to try it to see. Many do like more powerful amps with Harbeths. But to some degree that’s just one factor in choosing an amp that you like with your speakers. The reason the discussions are inclusive is that it’s a matter of taste and preference. I am rather objectively oriented, but I'm always surprised at how different the sound is from different amps paired with a set of speakers.
My own preference is for powerful amps. To me, they give better control of the speakers and better bass. I’m using a Bryston 4B3 now; and the 14B SST I used before sounded GREAT. With my P3ESRs, I’m using a Marsh Sound Design A400s (200 wpc into 8 ohms, 330 wpc into 4).
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@bfleetwood
I don’t have your specific PL Evo linestage but I do have a PL Dialogue Premium HP amp... from that piece I would venture to say that your PL unit will sound quite different with different input tubes in the key 2 gain positions (see your manual or the PL site, they specify which positions are key). Are you still running the poor, stock PL-supplied Chinese tubes in your EVO? If so I suggest you get some better, old stock 12au7’s. That will alter the presentation substantially. This is important, as you know, because your PL precedes the power amp, so even a subtle change there is magnified by the YBA...
Another idea, if you really want to hear what Alan Shaw intends the Mon 30 to sound like, is go on USAM and pick up a Hegel integrated... there are several there now... a Rost or a H160 can be had at a bargain... (you can resell it in a jiffy at those prices... like Harbeths, Hegels are always in demand). Then, you take the PL out of the chain, hear the speakers with the Hegel driving... that is your reference, your ’base case’ sound you then vary from with other gear... i promise you will hear more clarity slightly more bass solidity more incisive attack than you are hearing now... whether you will like that sound you can decide
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jjss49, I think your advice no the tubes is a good one. Where does one go to pick those up? Regarding the Hegel, your probably didn’t notice that the PL/YBA combo replaced a Hegel H190. I actually like the sound of my current set-up much better. I decided on the PL preamp after I compared a PL integrated with the Hegel H590 and concluded that there was no comparison. Nevertheless, I like having a SS power amp better due to the “heat” issues with running a tube power amp. At this juncture, I am searching for a more powerful SS alternative to pair with my PL thinking that the added power output will provide bigger sound. A friend of mine who also has a pair of Harbeth 30.2s runs through a refurbished Conrad Johnson pre, but upgraded a Rogue tube amp to a refurnished Counterpoint hybrid power amp. When he made the change, I agreed with him that the more powerful Counterpoint was a significant upgrade. The system sounded bigger (and better). That is what I’m looking for and hope that others have similar experiences that they would like to share. Thanks for your help and the tube recommendation. |
@bfleetwood ahh i did miss your earlier reference and trial of the hegels... so that box is ticked as for tubes... http://www.audiotubes.com/12au7.htm - brent is very accessible and helpful... tell him what gear and current tube you are running, what sound delta you seek, he will help you choose amongst his vast collection... good news is the 12au7's that the PL runs are still relatively cheap and plentiful tubes... usa made NOS organ stock (as in church choir organ, not your internal organs!) 12au7 marked hammond conn baldwin are plentful and well screened for noise and microphony... they sound great! |
I have 30.1s and have used quite a few amps with them and never thought they ran out of juice. I used to use them with Quicksilver 40 watt monoblocks. I now use a Yamaha AS2100. Both sounded great. I'm not sure you could make them sound bad. Dynamics on the other hand may be an amp issue. They love Quad amps in the Harbeth Users Group (Mainly UK centric so not surprising). You can get an Artera Stereo with 140 wpc for probably close to $2000 new and quite a bit less used. I would try some sort of used solid state that you know you can sell for what you paid just as an experiment. |
I have the 30.1’s and use an Audio Research GS-150 to drive them. I agree that they are lacking in bass but the natural mid’s and high’s are exceptional and uncolored. I have purchased the REL T/7i’s to make up for lost bass. Tho not yet connected, this REL is claimed by other Harbeth owners and REL to pair nicely with the Harbeth as they are very quick in their bass response..so they match well with Harbeth’s. I always prefer a clean and tight bass versus overpowering and boomy bass. Perhaps the best woofers I have ever owned were the KEF woofers in the ESS Translinear II speakers of many moons ago. It offered the tightest, cleanest bass I have ever heard from a speaker.
I happen to like tube amps and pre-amps (use an AR pre-amp) but have heard tfrom other Harbeth owners that they do very well with a good solid state amp. |
Just get the H390 or H590 and be done with it! Very little else compares - believe me - thst’s what I’ve got!
Want better? Get yourself a AFC 5se (or better) preamp and a Bryston or Benchmark or Parasound Halo amp.
Harbeths never sounded better - ever! |
The basic issue of preamp/amp mismatch is output impedance to input impedance. So long as the preamp's output impedance is at least 10 times lower (1:10) than the amp's input impedance, you're fine. Most (but not all) products meet this criterion.
Beyond that matching preamps and amps is more a matter of taste than anything else. Often claimed "synergy" is really just something that sounds good to one person.
That being said, many people combine a tube preamp with a SS amp to get the best of both worlds. With 30.2's, so long as you have an amp with 100-150W with a stiff power supply you should be fine. And beyond that, as SS amps do sound different, once again it's more than anything a matter of taste. If you're sticking with separates, there are alternatives to the Hegel. |
I believe that my YBA vintage amp is solid, well built and transparent. Its power specs meet the 100 - 150 W criteria. I am still left to wonder whether a SS amp with more power paired with my PL preamp will sound better (not just louder). The longstanding discussion of how much power is enough and how much power matters besides playing louder is still a mystery to me. I recall Alan Shaw in a demonstration where a 500 wpc amp is driving the Harbeth’s. I want to keep the PL preamp and simply wonder whether the more powerful amp with “sound” better, not just louder. For those who might agree with this concept, are there SS power amps that you believe might fit the bill? |
I should note... that the H590 does not route the external preamp directly to the amp of the H590, but to the preamp of the H590. So... while you can add some tube effects to the H590, you can do so only through the H590 preamp. But, you still get some of the benefits of the external tube preamp.
Hegel says they do this to assure the correct matching impedence between the preamp and amp - which assures the Harbeths benefit from the H590.
Whatever... it works well. |
@bassdude
i think the op has said of the excellent hegels, he has ’been there done that’, and likes the primaluna in his signal chain better
@bfleetwood
you seem to have your heart set on finding out what a mega ss amp will do for you... so i hope you pick a good one and let us know... sometimes we get an itch that just must be scratched... its all part of the process of becoming satisfied with our systems
i would say that alan shaw certainly subscribes to that belief... doesn’t really matter what amp, but be sure get a big-ass one and you’re done... a couple thousand experienced harbeth speaker owners here and elsewhere may not quite agree hahaha |
Not sure why your worried about taking the volume knob on the PL past twelve o’clock as it surely doesn’t care and you wont hurt it. If your YBA has a higher than normal input sensitivity then it may be necessary. But if you just want to look at a reasonably priced higher power amp that will work with the Harbeth’s then look at one of Van Alstine’s current higher power models. I own a pair of C7’s and a Van Alstine Vision SET 400 and it sounds really good with the Harbeth’s in concert with a Supratek tube preamp. Frank has multiple other models that will fit the bill all under your limit. All have a thirty day money back guaranty with you only being out the return shipping to Minnesota. The SET 400 is only $2000 brand new. Another good option is the PS Audio BHK 250 on the used market. |
I'll follow up the PS Audio recommendation with another... M700 Monos. Great sounding amp IMO, and relatively low cost. Smooth, detailed, great stage. I do think that you might be asking too much of just an amp change, though, which is why so many have recommended also trying different cables, adding a sub, or simply different speakers. But, I have to agree with those who've said... If you are wondering what a beefier amp would sound like, go for it, and let us know. There's only one way to know for sure... |
I have a 30.1 that I am running with a new Hegel H95. I also have a couple of Rel 7i subs so the bass is well fleshed out. The Hegel is good with the Harbeths but feel that it just doesn't grab them - thinking 60 watts just not enough. So even though the amp is new and love the whole Hegel setup has me thinking about other options.
My two options that I am thinking most about
1. trade up to Hegel 390 - even with trade in this is an expensive option but love prospect of update dac as well to go with my lumin U1 mini
2. purchase newish Parasound A21+. Since buying the Hegel I have a very nice Don Sachs preamp sitting on sidelines and watching - thinking the two might work nice with the 30.1s. More affordable option as well plus can keep the very nice H95.
Any experience or thoughts updates?
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@ladavid
Look at the Van Alstine Vision SET 400 to pair with your Don Sach's. |
agree w jackd that a d sachs into a van alstine unit would be outstanding
i would also comment that hegel’s h95 is lowest in their range... one should really step up to h190 if not h390 to get into the ’real deal’ hegels which have more refinement in sq as well as ’grip’ |
I’m really late to this discussion, but I have a PL Evo 300 preamp, 30.2 XDs with a 20 year old Rotel RB-981 amp putting out 130w, and I have a REL T/7i sub. Set the sub up properly and it pretty much handles that bass your looking for. I’m casually looking for an amp myself. |
Funny to read your post because I just added a REL T7i to my system. While I'm still tinkering with the settings, I agree that it fills in the bottom end and enhances the sound stage. I have repeatedly read that Harbeth's are difficult to pair with a sub, but so far I have found that it blends exceedingly well. I still think that a more powerful amp might give the sound even greater presence, but so much of the feedback I've received throws water on that idea. I still think the idea of how much power is never explained well. I have considered amps by Audio by Van Alstine (either the Vision SET 400 or the hybrid) or the Rogue Audio Dragon. I'm going to think on it awhile since I would like to get comfortable with the new subwoofer addition. Good luck in your search and let me know if you find something you think is better. |
