Phono Stage upgrade to complement Dohmann Helix One Mk 2

cleeds, By the way, you were quite right to correct me regarding microphones and etc in the recording chain up to the application of RIAA equalization during the making of an LP. I realized after the fact and before you pointed it out that the recording process per se would have nothing to do with either the application of pre-emphasis or the error margin thereof. Thanks for pointing it out to others.

"Wavestream Kinetics Deluxe Reference Level 5.1."

drbond, no_regrets suggestion  arguably might be the "best" true all tube  phono stage you'll get.

https://theaudioarchive.com/TAA_Products_Wavestream_Kinetics.htm

Truly on a different level from all other tube units that are suggested. 

@rauliruegas , I understand the Kondo sound you are talking about.

Thankfully the new generation Kondo has starkly moved towards accuracy and bandwidth extension. For example their legendary Ongaku is their old design. Refined, smooth, boring and laidback. But their new Gaku-Oh is totally a full frequency dynamic beast. The same is with GE10 phono. The only problem is people can't muster spending $60k on a MM only phonostage.

The phonostage should really depend on the cartridge. If you are using a low output MC, then there are few better than EMT 128, particularly if you are using an EMT cartridge. Other suggestions are CS Port C3 EQM 2, if you would like a tube sound.

@laoman 

Thanks for the recommendations, but both the CS Port C2 EQM 2 and the EMT 128 (both of which are but phono stages, and look like high quahily products) only have one input.  With my two tonearms, I would prefer a phono stage with two inputs. 

 

@lewm 

Interesting insight about the Manley Steelhead.  I assume that you have replaced some of the capacitors in your unit?  Who would I send my unit to if I were interested in "upgrading" the Manley Steelhead with new/different capacitors?  
Thanks. 

 

Dear @drbond : I’m a MUSIC lover and normally I listen to classic and Jazz/Blues recordings. I don’t play any instrument and my prefered reacording instrument is piano but I listen everykind of classic scores and I like too some type of Opera scores too.

Now, time to time I listen old rock recordings of the .Presley and B.Haley times or disco Music recording from the 70’s-80’s that some of us danced in the discoteques of those times. Btw, these kind of disco music listened at average 95db SPL with peaks around 105db SPL is way demanding and a ytrue tests that only a few system can do it in the rigth way with out compresión or any kind of " colapse ".Several of these type of recordings ( that mainly came in single 33rpm or 45rpm from Italy, England and Germany. ) can sounds really agressive and way ( sometimes. ) strident in almost all system but the really good ones. As I said a " tourtuose " test for any room/system as is the Telarc 1812 at those SPL. No, I don't listen at that SPL. Normally I listen at around 82db at seat position, sometimes even lower.

In the last 30 years I attend every week to listen the seasons of different classic Orchestras and twice a week ( obviously not during Covid. ) to Jazz/Blues clubs and eventually to big events when comes groups as Eagles, Foreigner and the like.

Yes, I always try to be seated at near field position but in the big " rock " live concerts. We have to take care our valuable ears.

 

R.

drbond, You might talk to Dave Slagle at Intact Audio. He is also associated with EMIA. I could talk to him about the Steelhead phono and line output stages on your behalf. Dave may even have some better ideas, since his knowledge is much deeper and wider than mine. He certainly has the capability to do more than I would dare to do.

I think we get caught up with fancy chassis’ and high prices which sometimes tends to make us forget that all of these devices are made of pretty much the same components: Wires, resistors, capacitors, etc. I think of them as malleable to suit my own preferences. Good circuit design is not the exclusive province of the ultra high priced segment.

@lewm 

I can contact Dave Slagle myself, but thanks for the offer.  I'll let you know what I hear from him.  Oddly, my Manley Steelhead power supply unit just started buzzing last week (as if it knew that I was looking to replace it, or perhaps I knew that it was going to start acting up), so I'm sending in the PSU to Manley for repair, so it might be a perfect time to send the head unit to Mr Slagle for an upgrade!

Dear @lewm  " Manley used second rate capacitors as output coupling capacitors in the Steelhead, .."

I can see in the circuit boards MIT and Wima caps. Which are the ones second rate you are talking about?

 

"" which sometimes tends to make us forget that all of these devices are made of pretty much the same components: Wires, resistors, capacitors, etc. ..... Good circuit design is not the exclusive province of the ultra high priced segment. "

 

Do you really think in that way?  because if you did then you are totally wrong.

 

@drbond  your manley is a " so so " hybrid " design ( Jfet ) and nothing more. Even lewm choosed " mainly " ( that's what he posted in the thread. )because accepts more than one cartridge.

 

This is what MF that had the Manley as his reference phono stage standard posted a little latter on:

 

" With the ASR Basis Exclusive on Cisco's upcoming reissue of Ian and Sylvia's stunning Northern Journey (Vanguard/Cisco VSD 79154), the guitars, mandolin, and autoharp crackled with sparkling, transient-snapping excitement yet with plenty of body, while Ian's and Sylvia's voices had a you-are-there clarity and presence. Image definition was precise, three-dimensional, and well focused, while Russ Savakus' bass was taut, with plenty of wood behind the string plucks.

Switching back to my reference Manley Steelhead phono preamp presented a completely different take on the same music: a more mellow overall balance, softer transients, and greater emphasis on midbass warmth. This made for a smoother balance that was easier to listen to yet still had plenty of detail—but it couldn't match the ASR's sheer excitement, or its ability to resolve the lowest-level detail in stark relief, all without sounding bright, etched, or hyper-detailed.  .

I compared the Steelhead and the ASR with the classic Mercury Living Presence LP of Aaron Copland's Rodeo, El Salón México, and Danzón Cubano, recorded in 1957 (!) by Antal Dorati and the London Symphony (SR90172). I found the ASR's overall presentation in fully balanced mode airier, more transparent, deeper, wider, and more dynamic overall. The brass had a lifelike, piercing, yet plush realism that the more softly sprung Steelhead couldn't equal, and there was no match in the reproduction of the thwack of the timpani, which had far greater impact through the ASR.

It was an impressive presentation of a recording that, like many Mercurys, can sound thin and ungrounded. ""

 

Anyway, That ASR is out of production an was a SS design.

R.

 

 

@rauliruegas

Thanks for sharing your research on the Manley Steelhead. It does seem that most people are preferring the SS phono stages these days. . .

@lewm

I heard back from David Slagle, and he said that he’s "not familiar with the Steelhead, so I’m not sure how much help I could be in improving it"

If you are interested, I can talk to him and explain the very simple upgrade I did myself.  I can describe the output circuit to him as well.  You can PM me.

@tablejockey

@no_regrets

Yes, I have an audiophile friend who has had the Wave Kinetics Deluxe Reference 5.1 phono stage for years, and he enjoys it; he says it’s much quieter than an Allnic phono stage, but that he still prefers the newer SS phono stages. . .
Thanks for your recommendation.

@lewm 

Thanks.  I'll DM you this weekend, although Mr Slagle didn't sound too excited about doing anything with the Steelhead, as I'd contacted him 4-6 months ago about an EM/IA LR phono corrector. . .

Dear @drbond  : Obviously you can ask but take in count that the Manley design came from 2001 with no seriously changes where you can say: " nigth and day differences for the better ".

 

""  seem that most people are preferring the SS phono stages these days. . .""

 

and for very good reasons. I already told you that the worst place to put tubes is in a phono stage unit. Line stages or amps are different.

 

R.

 

 

Another vote for Boulder 2108.

I'll be saving for one myself soon enough.  I find Boulder to be just so musical. My yardstick isnt the aforementioned s/n ratio, but whether a component causes me to change my plans and llisten to music some more.  

I find Boulder to be unsurpassed in the regard. 

The Van Den Hul Grail SE (or SB) is a “CURRENT” phono stage that has garnered excellent reviews.  I own the SB.

@rauliruegas 

Thanks for sharing your musical preferences.  That allows me to better understand your  musical perspective.  I understand that you want a system that reproduces every nuance, as if you are in the orchestra with the musicians, along with the microphones, and the Lyra Atlas definitely makes me feel that way, and I understand why you have such an affinity for that cartridge.  On the other hand, the Koetsu does make you feel like you are further back in the audience seating, where details are lost, but some people think the sounds combine more musically the further back you are from the orchestra / musicians.  Your perception is that this effect of the Koetsu is s a deficiency, and technically, I suppose you are correct.  

As previously mentioned, it does seem that most experienced audiophiles do prefer a SS phono stage, and I am looking in that direction.  While I haven't researched all the recommendations yet, I would say that I'm preliminarily leaning towards the CH Precision P1 with X1 power supply.  

Thanks. 

Keep in mind that Raul has a fanatical hatred for any component that uses a vacuum tube. His judgement is not objective. In my opinion, your best course of action is to try to audition as many of these high end phonoline stages as you can, both tube type and solid state type, before making your purchasing decision. I don’t know where you live, but I do realize that it is difficult these days to find a place to just go and listen. You may have to travel to do so.

Contrary to Raul’s insinuation, I never said or even meant to imply that the Manley Steelhead is the be all and end all of phono reproducers. But I think that my tweaked one is pretty good.

Dear @lewm  : " Keep in mind that Raul has a fanatical hatred for any component that uses a vacuum tube. His judgement is not objective.."

 

WRONG again. As you I was a tube love for 10+ years and the Ongaku that pani named was my last experience with because at that timwe and contrary of you I LEARNED and I know in OBJECTIVE terms that the worst place to have a tube electronic unit is a  phono stage .

 

"" Contrary to Raul’s insinuation, I never said or even meant to imply that the Manley Steelhead is the be all and end all of phono reproducers. But I think that my tweaked one is pretty good. ""

 

WRONG again+, that's only yur imagination I never posted that " insinuation " and your " pretty good " unit is because you still like to live in the " error ", fine with me. It's your problem, got it?: your problem not mine.

 

R.

 

Dear @pani  : " But their new Gaku-Oh is totally a full frequency dynamic beast. The same is with GE10 phono. The only problem is people can't muster spending $60k on a MM only phonostage. ""

Just at the end of mt over 10 years audio tube stage my friend and Audio Note distributor gave me the opportunity to listen for 3 full weeks the Ongaku when I told him that I decided to go with all SS electronics and till today and even that I listened several other contemporary tube electronics just don't " come back to ".

I'm really way demanding as I know you are in the quality level performance of any room/system I been or be listen it. As I posted I'm not married with what " I like " but with how it : should be.

Thank's for your post.

 

R.

I am not quite sure why you are so provoked by some of my opinions, but this line of argument is too silly to continue. I’d be interested to see a list of tube phono stages that you currently would endorse as competitive with whatever are the best SS units in your opinion. Even a hybrid type that meets with your approval would be interesting to know about.

I once spent a long afternoon listening to first the Ongaku and then the Gaku-on with an outboard power supply. On the same system and driving the same pair of Audio Note speakers, etc. First one amp, then the other. My impression was both sounded "very good", but they did not sound the same at all. It seems to me that there should be one "Absolute Sound". The best amplifiers should begin to sound the same as you approach perfection in amplification. That experience drove me away from SE amplifiers in general, and anyway SE amplifiers are not suited to driving ESL speakers that I favor, by and large.

@kennyc 

I wondered how long it would be before someone mentioned the vdH Grails.  They seem to be grossly under-rated here and almost never mentioned.

A couple of years ago I auditioned the more complex SE against Nagra, Boulder 1008 and AR Ref 3 in my system for three weeks.

It was the best of them.  Nagra wasn't nearly tight enough.  Boulder way over-clinical, really unmoving and tiring to listen.  AR better than those.

But the vdH was an unbeatable combination of accuracy and musicality.  I guess it was voiced by AJ although I understand he didn't contribute much to the electronic design.  Long story short I bought it and haven't looked back.  This is my last phono amp.

Yes, the current design is a big advantage as no manual impedence matching is needed and it works equally well with any MC cart, although all mine are at the low output end.

@drbond I envy your dilemma - lovely turntable 

I heard the FM in a Vertere FM chain and it was compared to live music and I couldn’t tell the difference - astonishingly good 👍 

I was also deeply impressed with a Constellation. I was not as impressed with a Zanden set up nor the KSL set up - I found both a bit syrupy and soft.

I heard the previous Whest reference and it is exceptional at hanging things in space and time. A new one is coming out this year - speak to James Henriot who makes them. It’s some way off ur price ceiling - around £10k but I’m sure you’ll go for performance so it’s worth a whirl. 
i would hope that with your demands dealers will happily lend you a component for a few weeks to decide properly - I hope you get a good one .

There's review for the Gokd Note PH-1000 Phono Stage on HiFi Pig magazine.

Read the review here: https://www.hifipig.com/gold-note-ph1000-phonostage/#more-146474

Have never heard this unit but have their smaller PH-10 and matching PSU-10 and works and sounds great.
https://www.hifipig.com/gold-note-ph1000-phonostage/#more-146474

@clearthinker 

@lohanimal 

Thanks for sharing your experiences with the various phono stages that you've heard. 

I'll have to look more closely at Constellation. . . I imagine it would be quite similar to the CH Precision. 

The only problem with FM Acoustics 122 Mk2 phono is it has a max gain of 56db only. While it goes well with its own high gain preamps, it can sound like lacking life and vigour through a regular preamp with 12-18db gain. It is not its true sound, but simply the gain structure issue. I have heard it doing that multiple times when paired with non FM preamps.

@pani never knew that about the low gain - I guess you are then forced to get a full FM amplification chain £££$$$€€€ 😂 

@drbond i have heard some CH precision at a show and found the set up a tad cold

The constellation is probably voiced like my Vendetta SCP2A and that is (to my ears at least) kind of dark chocolatey in that it is warm but not not fuzzy. It’s got a knack of making you listen and draws you in.

Many say the Mares/Connoisseur @jcarr is incredible but they are no longer manufactured 

@drbond 

Here is a great comparison of state of the art phono's FM Acoustics, Goldmund  etc - an excellent read - you can use google translate. It is well worth it.

Part 1 :

6台顶级唱放对比测试，超跑级黑胶系统为参考（1）

唱放之间的差异，远远超出我们的脑放，尤其在参考级唱盘上。

 mp.weixin.qq.com

Part 2 :

11台顶级唱放对比测试，超跑级黑胶系统为参考（2）

德国Trinity黄金参考前级的加入，把本次测试推向了高潮。

 mp.weixin.qq.com

Part 3 :

12台顶级唱放对比测试，黑胶元年真的来了（3）

顶级玩家那里黑胶一直没有衰落，软硬件革命性突破更是火上加油。

 mp.weixin.qq.com

Part 4 :

唱放中的"金陵十二钗": 唱放测试终结篇（4）

哪个是黛玉？哪个是宝钗？大家最关心的可能是哪个是秦可卿。。。

 mp.weixin.qq.com

 

Personally I find current mode input mc phono  stages such as the van den hul grail to be the most transparent and musical - step up transformers have phase shifts and cartridge matching issues, fet's are grainy, and tubes whilst very musical can be too noisy for some.

I have settled on a bespoke current mode mc input combined with tube preamp - ultra low noise, high resolution and musical. The current mode mc input I use can amplify from cartridges with output down to 0.1mv with ease.

Please let us know which one you got and how it sounds because whilst I can’t afford your kinda high end I guess as the saying goes ‘a cat 🐈 can look at a king 🤴!’ 😆 

Pani, if you mate the FM122 with a linestage having 12-18db of gain, you’d be in a good place to drive most amplifiers with most LOMC cartridges. (At the far end of that range, you’re adding 18db of gain which would be very capable.) Or did you mean to say that the FM Acoustics linestages have about that much gain? If so, many other linestages also have gain in that range.  But a passive linestage or an active one with zero added gain need not apply.

If shopping for a current mode phono stage, my advice is to try to find out exactly what is the input impedance. You want it to be as close to zero as possible, but of course it cannot be zero, because that would represent a short circuit, like a mute switch, for the cartridge. I would look for 10 ohms or less, to take the most advantage of the current output of a LOMC. Likewise, you can estimate the current output of the cartridge by dividing its voltage output by its internal resistance. Right away this tells you that LOMCs with high-ish internal resistance, say greater than 10 ohms, are not going to work so efficiently with a current mode design. So, for one of the lowest voltage output cartridges ever made, the Ortofon MC2000, at .05mV, it has an internal resistance of 2 ohms. Thus it makes ~25 micro-amps of current. Do the calculation for other LOMCs and you will see that the MC2000 actually makes a credible amount of current. Because most have an internal resistance much higher than 2 ohms.

@clearthinker 
you are spot on of why I purchased a VDH Grail SB- excellent sonics, very low noise floor, long track record, bargain priced in used market.  I’m hoping for additional brand synergy with my VDH Colibri Grand Cru.

@drbond , you just bought one of the very best if not the best turntable on the market. There are many turntables that are much more expensive that you could have gone for so, you were also interested in value. I also assume that the Dohmann's design and the reputation of it's designer led you to the purchase. 

I look at things the same way. Here is how it goes with phono stages. All my favorite cartridges are low impedance moving coil cartridges. I am not sure why that is but, so be it. These cartridges are low output and require a very quiet phono stage with a lot of gain unless you run the cartridges in current mode then the lower the impedance the higher the gain resulting in a better signal to noise ratio. The magnetic braking on the cantilever is far less resulting in better tracking than you would get with a voltage mode phono stage. All the current mode phono stages I know of are solid state. This limits my search to solid state current mode stages. I think Rob Robinson of Channel D is a brilliant designer as I think of Mark Dohmann. If you want to spend $60,000 than the Seta L20 is IMHO the way to go. It is a great example of American ingenuity. I will not spend that much on a phono stage. I went for the Seta L Plus wired for current mode. If I wind up with a second tonearm I'll get a second one.  

I am cautious to bring this up but given the caliber of your table and arm, have you ever listened to the DS Audio.  I had a dps turntable with Schroder arm, and an Ortofon MA 90 with a Tom Evans Groove SRX +, until I heard the DS Audio.  I was stunned.  So much so that I got out of moving coil and now have Grand Master and Emm labs DS-EQ1.  The two would be the price of many hi end phono stages.  I realize you have a lot invested, and it won't lend itself to 2 arms but if you ever get the chance do listen.  I, in no way, am trying to suggest the other choices aren't great.  Best of luck

@dover 

Thanks for sharing those links.  I'll have to review them this weekend, when I have a few free moments.  

Thanks also for your recommendation of the van den Hul Grail SE+, as a current-based phono stage.  That seems to be a contender.  @kennyc also recommended that one. 

@lewm 

Thanks for bringing up a shortcoming of the FM Acoustics phono stage.  Since my pre-amplifier is Ypsilon, and I run it in the passive mode, I would need a phono stage with higher gain settings. 

@mijostyn 

Thanks for the recommendation of the Channel D Seta L20, which is another current-based phono stage.  I'll have to admit that I'm most skeptical about this one, though, as I'm not sure if it's really going to be worth the $60k, if another one for $30-40k is just as good. . . 

So far, I would have to place my leading contenders as all current-based phono stages: 
CH Precision P1

van den Hul Grail SE+

Channel D Seta L20

I really appreciate everyone's contribution to my learning experience, as I would really otherwise have no idea where to start.  

 

@drbond , The CH was also on my list but it fell off due to price and the admission that it's stock power supply is not good enough. They will be happy to sell you a second one so now you have paid for two power supplies instead of the one you should have had t begin with. The L20 gives you the best possible power supply up front, batteries that are disconnected from the line during play. The trickery does not end there either. To reduce noise to extraordinary low levels the L20 uses 20 of the Seta L's gain modules, 10 in each channel. I think this is a computer trick. You increase gain without increasing noise levels and the signal to noise ratio increases. In MkII form it now has multiple inputs and will also run in Voltage mode for higher impedance cartridges. I have no idea why you would want to. With cartridges like the Lyra Atlas SL, Ortofon Verissimo and the My Sonic Platinum Signature there is no need to look elsewhere. (that is going to cause some frowns) The sad part is that there is no way I'll get 60K for a phono stage by my wife. She had a heart attack when I mentioned $25k for a projector. So, I'll have to do with the lowly Seta L Plus. Same circuit with two gain modules, fewer bells and whistles noisier but still very quiet. Could be worse.

What strikes me about "Channel D" and their many products is that they need a PR guy.  First, the name of the product line (Channel D) is non-descript if not misleading (because it makes one think of Class D amplifiers, which are not exactly a la mode with high end audiophiles). Second, the naming of the different phono stages of ascending value makes no coherent sense.  And on top of that, reading the blurbs on their website to understand their design philosophy, I don't get a clear picture.  It's too bad, because their products might be great and might suffer for lack of proper promotion.

Dear @pani  : Mi advise to the OP was and is for the 223 that has 62db on gain and even can go higher if the customer needs and ask to FMA for it.

@mijostyn , you like the numbers and the FMA 223 beats the noise levl of the Channel L20 with its incredible: -137 dBu at full output ! !

At the FMA quality levels it has no single problem to compete and even could outperforms current mode units.

Anyway the 223 is only an OP option good enough as other posted alternatives.

 

R.

Dear @drbond  : It's useless and even could be futile that you spend thousands of big dollars for a top phono stage as many of the named in the thread only for that excellent quality level coming from the phono stage been destroyed/ruined by your Ypsilon preamp truly poor quality levels against any of the phono stages named here.

If you are not willing to change youfr preamp then you have not worried really wich Phono stage is better because at the end what you will listen be the terrible Ypsilon and all those wires transformers that degrade the signal but it's not only that but its terrble frequency bandwindt and several other critical issues.

 

Then which your point or the other gentlemans ones?

My point is that you need at least the same quality levels/design in the line preamp than in the phono stage. Same for your amps where I gave you the advise to go for the JC1+ monoblocks that makes a in heaven mate with the Soundlabs.

 

R.

@rauliruegas 

While I appreciate your recommendations, I will have to admit that such dramatic and extreme comments such as you have mentioned about the Ypsilon products make me question the validity of some of your perspectives.  I've never heard music any better than with the Ypsilon amplifier and pre-amplifier.  Even with my "lowly" Manley Steelhead connected to they Ypsilons, the performers sound like they're in my room, so I'm looking forward to hearing how much improvement there is with an upgraded phono stage.  

Perhaps you're correct that another amplifier, like a DartZeel, would perform better than the Ypsilon, perhaps not; perhaps they just render slightly different presentations.  I highly doubt the JC1+ would produce anything close to what I currently hear.  

Regardless, please just stick with discussion about phono stages on this thread. 
Thanks. 

@drbond 

funny you say that about @rauliruegas  - i always find my discussions with him to be very productive. It might just be he is not a fan of Ypsilon - I've never them. Please remember we all have our own natural prejudices - me I am not a fan of KSL/Kondo - Zanden and Dartzeel - all well loved brands and I'm sure to many ears are mana from heaven - I find them either mushy or too coloured. 

Many a reviewer has very specific loves/prejudices - Martin Colloms loves Naim and Linn - Roy Gregory anything stocked by Audiofreaks (he had to answer letters about this in hi fi plus) - Michael Fremer (anything new and stupendously expensive) 

Many a reviewer has very specific loves/prejudices - Martin Colloms loves Naim and Linn - Roy Gregory anything stocked by Audiofreaks (he had to answer letters about this in hi fi plus) - Michael Fremer (anything new and stupendously expensive) 

And most reviewers will wax poetic as out the positives, or maybe “they” find the reviewer that will be positive.

So it is a bit of a feedback-loop as negative reviews, do not result in a negative reviewer getting more products to review that “could be” heavy on the negative side.

Dear @drbond  : "  I've never heard music any better than with the Ypsilon amplifier and pre-amplifier.  Even with my "lowly" Manley Steelhead connected to they Ypsilons, "

Well that could be because you do not listened something really better, that's all and does not means Ypsilon is what you think i's. Even that now you could question the validity of my posts you can be sure that I know what I'm talking about and more important I know why I'm talking in that " dramatic " way. I only want to help and that you stop to spend money instead to invest in true high quality performance level audio items.

 

" I highly doubt the JC1+ would produce anything close to what I currently hear.  ", well one reason is that the JC have a way better design. @lohanimal  agree with all your post.

 

R.

 

Well the Ypsilon Hyperion monos got a blisteringly good review in both Absolute Sound and Stereophile. Michael Fremer concluded that the Ypsilon passive preamp was as transparent as his reference Dartzeel. He also concluded that the Hyperion monos were as good as the Dartzeel 458 mono’s

"Side 2 was mind-bogglingly better than I’d ever heard it, all of the inner instrumental voices clearly revealed. Especially amazing was the return of the trumpet call, backed by delicate, barely audible woodwinds that were now clearly delineated—and, a few minutes later, the triangle, each stroke’s attack, sustain, and decay convincingly reproduced with great deliberateness and delicacy. And string pizzicati were perfection." MF review

It is clear that the Ypsilon PST100/Hyperion monos are superb by any standard.

In my experience the most compelling systems are those where the owner has selected a speaker they like, and then they found the best amplifier to drive those chosen speakers. In the case of @drbond he owns Atmasphere OTL’s, CJ , and Lamm M2.2 mono amps and has concluded the Ypsilon Hyperions are superb in his system on his Soundlab speakers. I don’t doubt this having heard many amps on Soundlab A1’s, both tube and solid state, they are very sensitive to amplifier choice.

You cannot select an amplifier based on specifications, they are only a guide. Of course if one partakes in copious amounts of tequila and electric puha then perhaps a JC1+ might be perceived to be SOTA

Now back to phono stage options....

 

 

@drbond , You make a big mistake underestimating John Curl. The JC 1+ uses totally first class components and very slick internal layout. It is less expensive because it is mass manufactured in Taiwan. Robots do a much better job than humans and we all know that surface mount is better than through hole. There are many people who think the JC 1+ is one the best amplifiers made regardless of price. 

@rauliruegas, FM Acoustics has a very colorful web site. The 233 has way more features than I will ever need or use. It looks beautifully made. It's "Hum and Noise" spec is very misleading. "Equivalent input noise below full output 22 Hz - 22kHz: - 137 dBu." I have no idea what that means. I know what "A weighted signal to noise ration" means. It is certain that they are two different ways of characterizing noise and can not be compared. The Seta's signal to noise ration even improves the lower the impedance of the cartridge. 

@lewm , I totally agree that Channel D's web site is fractured and should be re-done. Rob Robinson is a computer geek and they view life differently than normal people. However, your comments on the companies name and product's name are trivial to say the least. By virtue of his feeling that digital RIAA correction is superior to analog filters he has already lost the analog audiophiles. No great loss IMHO. I plan on trying it when I get the unit as I already have the programming. Don't worry. I also ordered the analog circuit. 

@dover , you make the same mistake underestimating John Curl. The Hyperion is significantly softer in the bass than the JC 1+, muddy would be the appropriate term. The JC 1+ is more aggressive sounding but still manages to come of like a tube amplifier. If you demoed the two together you would never be able to justify spending $90,000 of the Hyperion. I said that wrong. You might be able to justify it but I would not.

You have heard the JC1 and the Hyperion driving the same pair of Sound Lab speakers in the same room with the same upstream gear?

Dear @dover : " this was posted by @lohanimal and I said agree with his post:

" Many a reviewer has very specific loves/prejudices - Martin Colloms loves Naim and Linn - Roy Gregory anything stocked by Audiofreaks (he had to answer letters about this in hi fi plus) - Michael Fremer (anything new and stupendously expensive) . "

That gentleman always does that and is in " love " with the " week audio item " till discover the next " marvel ".

Why don’t ask him to make a comparison between the amps he has rigth now against the JC1+ and ask too for absolute honesty about.

Expen$ive is far away to be a synonymous of quality in audio items as the ones we are talking about.

There is a CH P1 issue that @mijostyn mentioned and that I already was thinking before:

" The CH was also on my list but it fell off due to price and the admission that it’s stock power supply is not good enough. They will be happy to sell you a second one so now you have paid for two power supplies instead of the one you should have had ...."

When we are talking of first rate quality design what happened with CH should not be happened through the original design and specially in the power supply that is designed and calculated extremely carefully to cover all " fundamental and not fundamental issues ". Power supply is the most important characteristic in a SS phonolinepreamp specially at that $$$$.

CH ask all the P1 unit owners to spend additional 17K dollars for the power supply that should be came in the original design and when the owner spend those 17K for the new power supply the original power supply that the owners already paid for is totally out of operation. Incredible and more incredible is that owners are so happy only because are gentlemans with a lot of money to spend. Such is life. Of course CH are really happy with.

Btw, there is one critical and way important issue in audio that $$$ can't buy and it's KNOWLEDGE top levels.

 

R.

 

Dear @mijostyn : "" has way more features than I will ever need or use. It looks beautifully made. It's "Hum and Noise" spec is very misleading. "Equivalent input noise below full output 22 Hz - 22kHz: - 137 dBu." I have no idea what that means. "

Yes, me neither and about the spec figure I posted because you posted before the same kind of noise figure for the L20 and that's all.

In the other side and talking of the L20:

" By virtue of his feeling that digital RIAA correction is superior to analog filters "

With today digital technology I agree with him. You can outperform easily RIAA deviation accuracy in the digital domain and you can " do " anything you want it with digital that you can't in analogue because you have to pay the " price " doing in analogue.

Problem with inverse RIAA eq is that the anlog lovers just can't digest that the beloved LPs be listened through a DAC in the phono stage. A really complex whole audio industry issue for say the least.

 

R.

I, for one, would welcome the opportunity to audition a top quality phono stage that does RIAA in the digital domain.  There's nothing inviolate about the precision capacitors, resistors, and/or inductors that are necessary for accurate RIAA in the analog domain. But I need to hear it.

Still wondering whether Mijo directly compared the Hyperion to the JC1.  I owned a pair of JC1s and ran them on my Sound Lab speakers before I later made a major change to the SL input circuit.  In the original configuration of the SL crossover, my Atma-sphere amps had a tough time with the very low impedance offered by the old SL crossover at midrange frequencies (2 ohms minimum at about 2kHz and only 5 ohms at around 500 Hz).  Also, the resistor in the hi pass filter sucked amplifier power at those very frequencies.  In that condition, the JC1 had no problem, but I did not care for the overall gestalt. (This goes back to Dover's statement that you choose an amplifier to suit a speaker; I totally agree.)  The JC1s were better suited to drive the old SL backplate than were my Atmas, in the midrange.  When I later modified the crossover drastically, I eliminated that impedance dip, and the Atmas sounded far better than the JC1s.  Just my personal experience. Presumably, drbond owns SLs with the later revised version of the crossover, which was implemented by Dr West in response to this same problem. I can say nothing about the sound of the Hyperions; I never even saw a pair.  But the JC1s are good but not transcendent, in my particular experiment.

@lewm  : You can listen the Devialet  audio electronics. I don't know if today still handled phono stage unit but I heard it and was really good.

Exist other manufacturers that have a digital RIAA in its design.

 

Btw, the today JC is really different to the old ones and every body knows that you are married with tubes in that specific sytem link. Nothing wrong with me.

 

R.